CT is dead, please fix

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Originally Posted by Farah

New players still have to do the grind the same way old players did. Lvl 50 dungeons still have ilevel caps that have to be met before running them. I think they somewhat fixed this by giving the i90 gear straight off the bat now, but there is still a significant tome grind for new players to get the updated 50 gear (ilvl 120), which is still relevant to people without the expansion.

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i90 is almost immediately replaced as soon you get it.

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Originally Posted by Windklinge

BIG FAT NO to nr2. i have had ENOUGH of these dungeons on 2.0. worst part about relic was forceing people back into old outdated content for pure grinds sake. never again please.

rest is ok tough and should happen. first one is very good afaik IF it gives enough eso stones. making it give only 30 eso stones wouldnt change anything.

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Agreed this is an annoying excuse to go back into old content for relic to help fill the ques I'm sick of having to go back to this kinda stuff for relic.
Can't we just have something unique to get the best weapons.

I'll agree with the rest but relic? Big fat NO denied. I also find it hard to imagine that they would just let any role join unless they remove level and item level scync but I'm pretty sure people would want to do these for exp.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

http://www.heart.org/idc/groups/hear...tion/large.jpg

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Quit smoking almost a decade ago, thanks.

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right right, what was i thinking

https://media.giphy.com/media/KpAPQVW9lWnWU/giphy.gif

on-topic, i don't see why we can't have both - sure it's a little extra labor but hopefully the team can finesse it so that both sides of the spectrum can at least kinda get what they want

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Originally Posted by Adire

Boring is why you have incentives. SE provides incentives to get you into dungeons to help new people even if you don't care about helping people.


I think you're overestimating the amount of development time SE could add to new content if they gave up on adding simple incentives to do old content such as light (which takes little time and effort for them to do), and underestimating the impact it would have on the game if new players were left to fend for themselves and forgotten about.

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Ok 2 things.

1. When you say light I assume you are talking about the light farming for relic the one where we had to go threw that awfull annoying grind 2 times for 1 relic?

2. And if you do mean that awfull light grind no I have never seen it help with people's qu times because people would just do full pre made party's to do this. It could take at lest 2 minutes to get into Garuda HM because so many full pre mades going in there for fast kills. So no being forced to go back to something in no way helps in fact it's awfull because people would rather speed run these kind of grinds it in no way helps.

Id rather see some fixes made for the older content at least. Nerfing T5 and T9 (dont complain at this point it reallybjust needs to be done now that its outdated content )and turning coil into a raid roulette would be nice.

Same for CT scale it down or make it part of its own roulette to get people to run it.

Might see something with 3.1 at least the games really stale right now alot of the old content was made redundant rather than rebalanced and incorporated into the expansion in some form. This leaves everyone feeling bored.

Giving how development works, if they were to constantly go back and make sure older content was relevant while is going to have to either take time away from new content or we have to make peace with longer development time between patches. Right now it's like what, three or so months between patches but we always know a patch is going to come during that time? To go back and make content constant relevant and provide a mountain of new content each patch, we're looking either an uncertain patch cycle or stretching that out from 3 months to between 4-6 months, and I know no content they can produce can fit that 4-6 month window without the cries of "not enough content".

Now as for making CT relevant, I'd be all for it personally. But let's be real, this is a vertical progression game. To make CT relevant again they would have to either incorporate it into the Relic (which is what they did with the old dungeons nobody were running anymore, and that pissed people off), or add yet another tier of gear to be obtained. And I'm not entertaining the "well if it was horizontal blah blab blah" because it is not, and turning a Vert game into a Horizontal one either hard as hell or impossible.

If they incorporate it into Relics, people are just going to get anal about having to old content. Yes they will enjoy it for the first week, but by week 2 they are going to hate it. If they just make it for glamour gear, people are going to run it for a few weeks then abandon it like they do now. If they want to make it relevant for a long period of time, they're best bet is to add a atma step that can be obtained from either FATEs or Crystal Tower. Why? who knows but that'd be my best idea on how to keep it relevant.

Working as intended. Invalidate old content with new, that's the modern MMO way.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Working as intended. Invalidate old content with new, that's the modern MMO way.

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If that is truly the case then "the modern MMO way" sucks in a major way and is a big fail.

As a new player I will be most displeased if it turns out that there are significant parts of the game that I will not be able to run/experience just because the old players no longer feel a need to run it.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

If that is truly the case then "the modern MMO way" sucks in a major way and is a big fail.

As a new player I will be most displeased if it turns out that there are significant parts of the game that I will not be able to run/experience just because the old players no longer feel a need to run it.

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You're in for a ride then. From vanilla to this expansion, it has been 2 years and they added 3x 24 man raids, 3x hard 8 man raid, around 8 extreme versions of the bosses you will have fought in the story mode (they drop stuff, story bosses generally don't). All obsolete. You know the 'CT' on this thread's topic? That's one of the 24 man raids.

No, as a new player reaching to lvl 60 after this point, you spam TWO 4man dungeons until you can buy starting endgame gear and then you have two things to do: spam those two dungeons some more for your 2nd highest max gear or do the easy 8 man raid for your 3rd best gear to fill out your gear slots. Then you can think about doing the hardest raid for the best gears, which is basically just the hard version of that simple 8 man raid you just did. Oh I suppose I should mention that the expansion added 2 new primal boss battles but they're obsolete at this point too! Did I forget to mention that the majority of the next content updates will be the same structure and they're all instanced? Good times ahead.

I wonder if everyone who hates running older content to help out the bean sprouts of Eorzea, or to help the community grow in general, also refuse to help fc mates, or people they might personally know. Tam Tara? Haukke Manor? Sorry dude your on your own. I got my Twintania mount, peace out.

Anyway, possible solution..

Mentor points and exclusive rewards and perks. Only earn mentor points by running older content as a level 60. Replace tome rewards with mentor points, and give a bigger chunk of points for the older raids. And make new subsections of roulette (mentor raid roulette, mentor trial roulette, mentor leveling roulette)

I think that could work quite well.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Felis

100% would only solve it for the first 2 weeks.

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You'd still be rolling against (max) 23 other people. So I think it would still be somewhat longer than that, just not the entire elapsed length of time between the raid's initial drop and now.

No.

I bought the expansion so I can play 3.0 content, not so SE can retroactively try to revive 2.0 content that we've all grown past.

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Originally Posted by CarnivalNights

No.

I bought the expansion so I can play 3.0 content, not so SE can retroactively try to revive 2.0 content that we've all grown past.

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All? Really? Does that include me who only started playing this game a couple of weeks ago?

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

It's as irrelevant for new players as old. If anything, doing CT is more likely to drive them away :P

We're all talking about the same CT right? The one that 99% of people hated with a passion?

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I'm a fairly new player (coming up on 3 months now) and was lucky enough to be on for a free company run of ct. We got around 20 people and duty fider'ed the rest. We wiped a few times in wod, but I had a lot of fun. I'd definitely run again for glamour and for the pets that I didn't know existed until now, heh.

No idea what it was like before hw, but that was my experience as a new player.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

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Well, all I can say is I hadn't run Ifrit Extreme in *literally* over a year because I could care less about the rewards there and I never really had any of my friends ask for help with that particular primal. Also, maybe it had something to do with fighting 3 different versions of him just made the encounter stale for me quicker than the other two. I went in a few days ago to help a friend get her fire pony and we did an unsync 3man for the win. It was more fun than I can remember having in Ifrit Extreme ever before.

So we ran it more. Because it was fun. Not for some reward.

21 tank 3 healer Syrcus Tower during 2.5 was also the most fun I've had in a 24man raid. All I'm trying to say is, you may not expect participation/interest levels to increase if they add unsync to the CT trio, but I could give two shits about any of those 3 instances and if they unsynced it and allowed undersized parties I would instantly be intrigued to go back into all of them. You wouldn't feel empowered to kill something with 8 people that was designed and tuned for 24??

Well, I would...so before you begin citing annotated references about "western player mentality", which I'm sure you Mastered in, please don't forget that....ya know....sometimes.......just the actual fun you're having can be considered the reward for some of us.

Also, when CT3 came out, the weekly quest also came out making you run all 3 for your upgrade items. Uh...everyone was doing that for a solid month. Queues were not "very long". At least not on my data center, which, oh Hey!!!, you happen to be a part of >.>

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

If that is truly the case then "the modern MMO way" sucks in a major way and is a big fail.

As a new player I will be most displeased if it turns out that there are significant parts of the game that I will not be able to run/experience just because the old players no longer feel a need to run it.

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Tell me about it. Wasn't always this way, but you can thank WoW with TBC and later expansions for cementing it as "the way everyone does it". Every expansion kills the older content. Heck FFXIV 2.0 pushed it further... every patch kills the former dungeon/raid content. Wasn't always this way. FFXI was able to keep content relevant for 7+ years by not increasing player level and using a horizontal progression system to focus on the endgame.

Most of the players that I knew just starting the game were only interested in reaching the new content. They didn't even want to do the old story, much less bother with old raids. At best they may take WoWs approach of manually entering the old raid, and being able to solo or party clear it.

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Originally Posted by Kalam

Most of the players that I knew just starting the game were only interested in reaching the new content. They didn't even want to do the old story, much less bother with old raids. At best they may take WoWs approach of manually entering the old raid, and being able to solo or party clear it.

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The issue for MistakeNot is there isn't anyone to take her/him through the old content because it's deemed obsolete. So sucks to the new players who have to now look for players or sit and wait a three hour queue to do this content. Sure it's "optional" but people want to experience it.

Edit: err misread. Well that's a pity that people want to skip all the content to join everyone else in running two dungeons over and over and an easy raid, doing a hard raid whenever your static can do it. Stop and enjoy the flowers while you get to 60 cause otherwise your not going to have much to do.

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Originally Posted by CarnivalNights

No.

I bought the expansion so I can play 3.0 content, not so SE can retroactively try to revive 2.0 content that we've all grown past.

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Agreed we should in no way have to go back to the old stuff for the new stuff in the expansion.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

All? Really? Does that include me who only started playing this game a couple of weeks ago?

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I'm sorry I really am but I hate duty finder with a passion I'll still do it for daily tomes expert mostly but I only use the other stuff to level stuff. If you wana know why no one wants to go back to old old content its just a one way path its too repetative.

Would it kill SE to build a dungeon where it has multiple lay outs like a random maze that be awesome.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

All? Really? Does that include me who only started playing this game a couple of weeks ago?

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"All" just means the "me me me" veterans. Rest assured, they don't speak for all of us. Or SE for that matter. SE still cares and thinks about new people thankfully, and that's healthy for the game!

As much as I detested CT at times, I'm more than fine with having reasons to go back, especially if it means new players get to experience it without having to deal with huge amounts of inconvenience. Even a mild grind would do wonders to help repopulate CT.

We'll benefit, new players will benefit, and it'll all be optional for veterans(even relics will be optional). So hoping SE gives us veterans reasons to go back. If veterans hate doing 2.0 content that much, they can still opt out, many will just do it though if 2.0 and even current HW judging by people leveling and such is anything to go by.

Not everyone is going to enjoy every part of a grind, that's just how it is. After running the same 2 dungeons (soon to be 4 maybe?) in expert roulette every day, I actually feel like 2.0 content is more fresh when I do it too :p

I'm in the camp of just let us run them unsynced. I have been sitting in hour+ queues to run Syrcus tower because of a few glamour pieces, and wow, it's just tedious. I'm 100% certain that me and a couple friends could do this raid unsynced. Adding it to a roulette is a nice idea, but we're starting to get overloaded with roulettes as it is. Easiest solution is let us run it unsynced.

Duty Roulette: Alliance would likely be the best solution. Just make the esoterics amount worth the trouble of dealing with a 24-man crew and I would imagine they would cap it at lv.50 also.

For someone who said it could be part of the relic quest. I am not sure about that. SE does keep the content (while easy) at the max level range, instance wise at least. Could always change things around. Then again, I do not want to spam the three CT's all day.

I agree with most of the suggestions but I dont want them included on the new relic quest, Im tired of running CT just to get some sands of time and roll 2 at the end of the dungeon, sooo no more grinding pls

No need to create a raid roulette, just put CT,ST,WoD in story roulette.

Story roulette for a dps is not even 10 minutes q and we rarely got more that one person new to it everytime. The raids also can be clear in the same ammount of time that Castrum/Preatorium.

That would easily fix it.

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Originally Posted by Fluffya

No need to create a raid roulette, just put CT,ST,WoD in story roulette.

Story roulette for a dps is not even 10 minutes q and we rarely got more that one person new to it everytime. The raids also can be clear in the same ammount of time that Castrum/Preatorium.

That would easily fix it.

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But...
A: The crystal tower raids aren't MSQs
B. It would be stupid to combine 24 mans with 8 mans

I like doing these raids on my alts and still need them to get Ironworks weps for alts, so anything to help revitalize these runs would be fantastic. I queued for WoD for two hours on Saturday. As a healer. It was ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Zodiar

But...
A: The crystal tower raids aren't MSQs
B. It would be stupid to combine 24 mans with 8 mans

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C: Roulettes fill content that requires the fewer number of people first to send people in as soon as possible. As soon as the right setup for 8 man content is in the roulette, it'll send you into CM or Prae rather than the CT.
You can see this with Guildheist roulette if you try them post-45. It'll queue you for the 8 man, but you'll also queue for the 4 mans at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

Would it kill SE to build a dungeon where it has multiple lay outs like a random maze that be awesome.

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We've been asking him for more complete dungeons for an eternity. Do they have someone paying attention to the English forums or do they only listen to the JP forums? Because they should be listening to us: We're the segment of their gamers where many of us have already been playing games with this kind of content structure for years. The JP players haven't had that level of exposure due to lack of interest in western games.

Afaik they are thinking of way on how you can low-man or solo older content. Dunno how much progress has been done on this tho. FFXI has the Trust system to deal with this kind of situation.

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Originally Posted by Reih

Afaik they are thinking of way on how you can low-man or solo older content. Dunno how much progress has been done on this tho. FFXI has the Trust system to deal with this kind of situation.

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I've tried low manning Satasha and such on a 50+ character. Great the first time through, but it feels incredibly disappointing to do older content that way. Why didn't anyone in WoW do the lower level dungeons back in vanilla where level sync didn't exist? Because it was pointless and boring. We only ran lower level people through dungeons when we had to, or if they were a friend. He is recreating the problem that level sync was designed to address, which was how to keep older content relevant.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

I've tried low manning Satasha and such on a 50+ character. Great the first time through, but it feels incredibly disappointing to do older content that way. Why didn't anyone in WoW do the lower level dungeons back in vanilla where level sync didn't exist? Because it was pointless and boring. We only ran lower level people through dungeons when we had to, or if they were a friend. He is recreating the problem that level sync was designed to address, which was how to keep older content relevant.

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We reran them all the time. In fact some of us even went into high level dungeons solo, for recipes, farming, soloing (or try to) bosses, etc. Levelsync in ffxiv doesnt work as great as you would believe anyway.
Due to the way to also scales your available skills, making low level duties particularly dull.

Maybe they're going to add Void Ark in to the quest where we have to do all three towers.

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Originally Posted by Embercrisp

Maybe they're going to add Void Ark in to the quest where we have to do all three towers.

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for gods sake NO. void ark should be extra since its endgame content. the old towers are NOT anymore.

also its likely youll get the upgrade items from hunts when 3.1 hits. expect weapon maybe. theyll save that one for after relic release probaly. since relic is gonna be i210 for sure otherwise it would be useless. new primal hopefully drops i205 for the time till i210 is handed out to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Tell me about it. Wasn't always this way, but you can thank WoW with TBC and later expansions for cementing it as "the way everyone does it". Every expansion kills the older content. Heck FFXIV 2.0 pushed it further... every patch kills the former dungeon/raid content. Wasn't always this way. FFXI was able to keep content relevant for 7+ years by not increasing player level and using a horizontal progression system to focus on the endgame.

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Right.

Blame WoW for something every non FFXI game did before it.

Seriously, the only MMO that kept old content relevant *that* long, is FFXI.

That should say something.

Creating alliance roulette and changing the queue format to work more like PvP wouldn't take a massive amount of dev time away from new content. Small, avoidable incentives don't turn the game into a horizontal progression MMO either. The goal is just to allow people to run these dungeons if they want to, and there are many simple ways to do that which don't detract from the rest of the game at all. How is that a bad thing?

I myself have made thread related to this idea, but I am really glad that finally one of these topics made it to 10+ pages and 60+ likes. Let's keep this stuff in one place and this thing will probably happen one day. :)

You got mah full support OP.

I did Labyrinth of the Ancients yesterday and it took two hours to get through the queue despite recruiting several friends to join with me. We sat at 23/24 people for over 30 minutes just waiting for one last tank, and during that time nobody left the queue. 23 people just sitting there for that long waiting for one person who could literally AFK the entire time and it wouldn't even matter. That seems like a pretty obvious problem to me.

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Originally Posted by seorin

I did Labyrinth of the Ancients yesterday and it took two hours to get through the queue despite recruiting several friends to join with me. We sat at 23/24 people for over 30 minutes just waiting for one last tank, and during that time nobody left the queue. 23 people just sitting there for that long waiting for one person who could literally AFK the entire time and it wouldn't even matter. That seems like a pretty obvious problem to me.

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No, it just means not enough people want to do it.

What you guys are asking for is SE to bribe people that otherwise don't want to do it, to do it.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

No, it just means not enough people want to do it.

What you guys are asking for is SE to bribe people that otherwise don't want to do it, to do it.

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... which is different from all of the other roulettes how? Do you really think most people would be running CM and Prae over and over just for the fun of it? No, they do it for the tomestones from Main Scenario Roulette.

Just admit that you have a personal hateboner for CT and stop trying to justify it with arguments that don't even make sense.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

... which is different from all of the other roulettes how? Do you really think most people would be running CM and Prae over and over just for the fun of it? No, they do it for the tomestones from Main Scenario Roulette.

Just admit that you have a personal hateboner for CT and stop trying to justify it with arguments that don't even make sense.

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Couldn't have said it better myself. Raid content should always be relevant despite when it came out.