People wanted combat uniqueness not to look the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Colored gear with specific classes.
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10-08-2011, 02:47 AMKiote
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10-08-2011, 02:47 AMMedura
so, some rage about it and some loves it, it is extremely fun to test em all out to make the best gear, and at the same time get materia by testing ^^ I say let it stay, at least the ls im from loves it :P 100+ members votes on me ;)
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10-08-2011, 02:48 AMBetelgeuzahHaha.Quote:
People were under the assumpton that dyed versions would do just what they did previously, provide distinction. I guess that's the community's fault for using logic.
"We want class uniqueness!"
"No! We don't want to sacrifice our customization options for it!"
Might as well divide by zero.
No, people wanted class uniqueness. From equipment to skillset to lore.Quote:
People wanted combat uniqueness not to look the same.
And with this system, no class looks the same. It's the next best thing to having completely new models for each class, which once again, limits customization as well. You don't wear WAR AF on DRG. -
10-08-2011, 02:49 AMOscillate_WildlyYou're ridiculous, this has nothing to do with class uniqueness. You can't wear plate mail as a mage, plate mail can only be worn by certain classes in DoW. That's class uniqueness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
What you're impossing has no clear cut answer, it's just stupidity.
How is clothing all GLA/MRD in cobalt plate mail (red), over any other colour, unique? -
10-08-2011, 02:50 AMOscillate_WildlyYou completely missed the point. Absolutely missed the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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10-08-2011, 02:54 AMBetelgeuzahLol. Each class has its own distinctive color scheme for their respective equipment. That is the very definition of the term unique.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly
Well, at least your arguments keep getting better....Quote:
You completely missed the point. Absolutely missed the point.
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10-08-2011, 02:55 AMKiote
Indeed, it totally makes sense..
To have 100 Unique Gladiators they must All wear Red Cobalt Plate Armour!
.. -
10-08-2011, 02:56 AMDallieQFTQuote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
/10 chars -
10-08-2011, 02:57 AMBetelgeuzahUniqueness between classes, not within a class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
To which lengths is the strawman going to continue?
Every Warrior with AF is going to look the same, but no warrior will look the same as a dragoon. Save your bitching for that time, cause that's gonna be game-breaking.
I'm sure when everyone was asking for class uniqueness they meant different pallettes of DRG AF wearable by WAR's and PLD's. -
10-08-2011, 03:00 AMKioteAre you mentally ill?Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
The Color itself has no impact on the Stat. It is a combination of Color+Armour that determine the stats.
Red does not mean strength bonus.
Red means Int bonus on one specific piece, strength on another piece, and fire resistance on another piece. This bastardized system doesn't even follow enough logic to lock a stat to a color. It's completely random.
All it does is determine that each color on any given piece of gear will change it's stats. No rhyme or reason. -
10-08-2011, 03:01 AMKioteWhy would you want to look the same as every other warrior?Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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10-08-2011, 03:02 AMOscillate_WildlyThat makes no sense. All classes can wear red, all classes have some shade of blue, and on and on and so forth. of course the hues will be a bit different as you go from cloth to metal, but it sounds like you're saying what now...That no class will ever get Sea Foam green except mages? That's true but if that's what you're saying you've completely missed the point yet again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Please use big, complicated words with examples to make your point. I have this feeling that you don't quite understand what changed.
here's what I'm saying.
Right now we have for example, a Cobalt Plate Mail, and it comes in undyed, and dyed in red. It can only be worn by 2 classes. This alone should be 'unique' as there are specific restrictions on who can wear it.
The red verison has an extra bonus stat over the Undyed version making it better stat-wise. Now explain how marauders and Gladiators both wearing the set in red are any more unique than say one wearing undyed, while the other wears red?
Once more. If you are a conjurer who heals, you'll look exactly the same colour-scheme wise, as the other conjurers who are going for base stats based in healing. You'll all be wearing green felt robes. How is that in anyway unique amongst yourselves by wearing the same set, in the same colour?
Before you could wear the same armour sets, except in the colour of your choosing. You could even wear it undyed. No longer.
You seem to think that the only way to make classes unique are to chain colours to them and make all what....All archers yellow, while making all Pugilists blue? Are we playing the board game Sorry? I'm /really/ confused by your stance on this as you seem to be in favour of removing all uniqueness in favour of making everyone dress the same. -
10-08-2011, 03:03 AMGidonoidon_Sur
Color affecting stats = dumb.
/end thread -
10-08-2011, 03:03 AMBetelgeuzahSo what? Items are separated by the classes that can wear them. Red robe is not the same as red Haubergeon. Red Haubergeon separates GLA from MRD, while Red robe separates THM from CNJ. They fulfill their purpose perfectly. You don't mix a red haubergeon with a red robe, unless, as you said, you are mentally ill. They are completely different models, and as such can share the same color while creating class uniqueness (through the model (haubergeon wearable by "4 classes") AND through the color (red haubergeon suited for GLA)).Quote:
The Color itself has no impact on the Stat. It is a combination of Color+Armour that determine the stats.
All classes have separate armor models which are then further divided to different colors that are suited just for them. Every class has its own theme, whether it be red haubergeon or red robe. That is class uniqueness.Quote:
All classes can wear red
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10-08-2011, 03:06 AMOscillate_WildlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
yes except we're both arguing different things. I'm in favour of uniqueness WITHIN THE SAME CLASS, meaing I'd like to NOT look like every other Conjurer across the server. You seem to be arguing against me for uniqueness CROSS CLASS which I'm in favour of as well. Which you've gotten in this update as armours are currently restricted to class and level. Which can be good, alright? Jesus.
And that's what AF is, I personally don't care about AF as it's never a game breaker and never will be. I liked my iconic red mage gear, and it never lasted. What will last are craftables. So the dye system shouldn't directly affect stats which they currently, as of this update, do. Go look up the same piece of armour for mages in different colours, all will have different bonus stats according to the colour of dye used. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE AGAINST.
For example, what if AF's came out with different colours, but the only one actually useful was in Red? And that you wanted to wear Blue? Well too bad, base stat-wise it'd be against you. So why should dyes be linked to stats at all? -
10-08-2011, 03:08 AMKioteYour definition of Class uniqueness is completely distorted. What you are talking about is forced Conformity. That is in no way unique. One thing that is the exact same as every other thing it is related to can never be unique.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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10-08-2011, 03:08 AMBetelgeuzahYou can't have uniqueness within the same class without first having uniqueness between classes.Quote:
I'm in favour of uniqueness WITHIN THE SAME CLASS
A Dragoon AF that is in 4 colors is not unique to Dragoons if 4 other classes can wear it all the same. It's just a generic armor that looks like it was made for Dragoon, but everyone uses it in all colors. -
10-08-2011, 03:10 AMOscillate_Wildly
Oh my Gooood you are so ridiculous you're still missing the point.
DYES SHOULD BE FOR AESTHETIC PURPOSES ONLY. THAT IS THE POINT OF THIS ARGUMENT. What are you even TALKING about? You're so turned around you're arguing for something that's completely POINTLESS. Of course a red haub won't resemble a red robe.
haubs and robes NEVER RESEMBLED ONE ANOTHER IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Haubs for example never gave huge chunks of MP while simultaneously giving you +INT.
HOWEVER. A red robe and a green robe should resemble one another with their stats as they ARE the same piece of armour, they are just different COLOURS. The stats shouldn't change just because the colour of the item changed. NOT WITHIN THE SAME PIECE OF EQUIPMENT.
THAT'S WHAT MATERIA IS FOR NOW. -
10-08-2011, 03:12 AMBetelgeuzahThat's just your opinion, while you offer no viable alternatives to create class uniqueness either.Quote:
DYES SHOULD BE FOR AESTHETIC PURPOSES ONLY.
The current dye system creates aesthetical uniqueness between classes. That is the end of it. No caps lock will change that. -
10-08-2011, 03:14 AMOscillate_WildlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
What the hell are you even talking about? Are you drunk? Colour =/= class. Colours are for aesthetics. Why would you even say that 4 colours = 4 different classes that can wear it? Are you completely mental?
Let me spell it out for you.
Dragoon AF: Comes in 3 colours. Only the Dragoon can wear it. ONLY THE DRAGOON CAN WEAR IT.
1st colour: +attack
2nd colour: +accuracy
3rd colour: +mnd, or piet, or intelect.
The distinction should not exist. Forget for a minute if you're going to argue about it, that this is about AF, because this what current crafting gear looks like. The stats change within the same piece of equipment depending on what colour you pick even if that goes against the colour you want.
IF you wanted or needed attack, clearly you'd pick the 1st one even if it went against the colour you wanted.
The mere fact that colour = stats is ABSOLUTELY BAFFLING. -
10-08-2011, 03:14 AMKioteUniqueness across Classes is determined by the design of the Armour, not the color.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Only Mrd/GLA can use Plate
Only GLA can use shield and plate
Both MRD and GLA should be able to wear any color Plate -
10-08-2011, 03:16 AMBetelgeuzahNow they are determined by both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
Earlier only armor model determined uniqueness, so every class shared an armor set, pretty much, and only had weapon to distinguish themselves with. People didn't like this, as there was no class uniqueness.
Now each and every class has its own theme dictated by model and color. You can't deny that, because it is a simple fact. The classes have become more unique in aesthetical sense because of that. -
10-08-2011, 03:17 AMR0ssdaddy
Undyed Cobalt Gear looks SO much better than the Red, especially on us Galka. I really wish I didnt have to wear the red just to get the added stat bonuses.
For the first day of patch, I was so happy that I actully looked like a Paladin! Now I look like a blood-soaked MRD with a sword.
DO NOT like how dyes bestow stats, but fully support changing the aesthetics. -
10-08-2011, 03:18 AMGidonoidon_Sur
start a thread where there are two options:
Colors are for aesthetics (like this)
or
Whatever Beetlejuice is smoking (like this)...jkjkjk. Current color affecting stat system. -
10-08-2011, 03:22 AMBetelgeuzahClass uniquenessQuote:
start a thread where there are two options:
or
Customization freedom
That's a good poll. -
10-08-2011, 03:22 AMKioteThis is simply not true. This is not what this system does. By making color determine the stats it does not make a class that benefits from that stat more unique, it makes the other classes that can use that armour gimped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Worse yet, they took it even farther than that. In some cases the color does not only change the stats. On some peices changing the color turns Crafter gear into generic DoW gear. That does not make all the DoW somehow unique, it serves only to restrict DoH to a single color.
This is not a system of enhancing uniqueness, it is a system of unjustifiable restrictions. -
10-08-2011, 03:24 AMBetelgeuzahYes it does, because that model+color scheme is now linked to that particular class. And No Other Class.Quote:
By making color determine the stats it does not make a class that benefits from that stat more unique
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10-08-2011, 03:25 AMOscillate_WildlyI did offer an alternative that involves using catalysts to attach to gear to make the stats change within the same piece of gear. Currently we have for lancers Scale mail, Haubs and shirts. If you don't want to wear a shirt, you can wear a scale mail, problem solved for in-class uniqueness. Except all models of armour give different stats, therefore different models can be used for different situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
What was so wrong with having various models of armour per class? They could have introduced even more models if that's your view.
Why on top of it further reduce uniqueness by tying direct stats to the colours? I don't think you know what you want and leap at any chance to accept something that makes a Marauder over an Archer unique.
That's great and all, but if the stats are great for one piece, in one colour, wouldn't all archers therefore pick that one piece? I don't see how that's very unique.
This argument is ridiculous~~~.
So when AF armour comes out are you going to kick and scream because all Gladiators look the same? O: Because I won't.
I kinda see what your deal is though. You find it weird that two classes can wear the same piece of armour. Well that hasn't changed, and by giving each a slew of colours connected to stats you think that's good, because it determines that now Red = Archer, and that Blue = Pugilist.
Completely ignoring user's desire for customization.
However, if they're both DD and want the gear that has +DD stats, they're still going to pick the same thing regardless of their class.
The past dye system allowed for class uniqueness by allowing people to wear whatever the hell colour they wanted by not restricting anything. Now you have specifically hued pieces of equipment that despite what you may want to believe, THM can heal just as well as conjurer, so both may as well pick green if that's what they want to do.
The dye system has done nothing but make certain pieces of the same gear better over others for no other reason than the dyes now give stats. It has done nothing towards uniqueness. -
10-08-2011, 03:25 AMKioteThat is far to generic to rate the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Class uniqueness is determined by Armour, Skills, Storyline, Party Role and god knows how many other factors.
Customization freedom can mean anything from aesthetics to ability swapping and beyond. -
10-08-2011, 03:26 AMKioteWay to ignore the part about how this system does not specifically relate to stats on gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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10-08-2011, 03:27 AMBetelgeuzahArmor, including model and color.Quote:
Class uniqueness is determined by Armour, Skills, Storyline, Party Role and god knows how many other factors.
There's some serious denial going on here!
Specific color+model, specific stats. Yes it does. There's no fluctuation. No randomness. Just pure hard facts.Quote:
Way to ignore the part about how this system does not specifically relate to stats on gear.
So lets wear Monk AF everyone! But don't worry, we'll be unique because the stats change from STR to INT between Jobs! It's going to be just as good!Quote:
I did offer an alternative
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10-08-2011, 03:32 AMOscillate_WildlyWhaaaat. Noooo, it's really not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Robes can be worn by both Thaumaturges and Conjurers. Robes haven't been linked to just conjurers. In the dye process, all colours can be worn by either. It then becomes a choice of what you want, +healing (both classes can heal) and +pie/intand such.
As a conjurer both a healing bonus, and an INT bonus are good choices. I don't know how Int does with thaumaturges, but as they can deal damage as well, across the board it all boils down to situation. Are you a healer? Then clearly, go with green.
So I guess what you're saying is it's now good that Classes are tied to colour schemes for class disparity. To which I boo loudly, and what ever will you do when people don't adhere to these restrictions? D: Oh no uniqueness gone. how will you ever tell a Conjurer and Thaumaturge apart? -
10-08-2011, 03:33 AMKioteOk one, the Color changes more than just the stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Two, Two classes being able to wear 6 different colors of the same gear is not the same as Every class being able to wear all of the gear. -
10-08-2011, 03:35 AMBetelgeuzahWith some classes the uniqueness comes from the role you choose to play. Either way, at least now I'll know whether this person I am looking at is a healer or a nuker/enfeebler. When before, there was no way to tell.Quote:
It then becomes a choice of what you want, +healing (both classes can heal) and +pie/intand such.
Once again, aesthetical uniqueness is there.
So? That didn't stop people from bitching about lack of class identity. Now the two classes (or roles) are clearly identified, and have unique equipment to support it.Quote:
Two, Two classes being able to wear 6 different colors of the same gear is not the same as Every class being able to wear all of the gear.
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10-08-2011, 03:38 AMKioteUm, no because the stats granted by a color are in no way specific to that color. One green robe might offer mind another green robe might offer int. Its different on every item.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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10-08-2011, 03:40 AMStarkbeaumont
i get where most ppl come from, but i actually like the way it is now. only thing that should be changed imo is colors not matching (red hat, green body etc.) like it was stated already.
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10-08-2011, 03:42 AMDreadnoughti guess i have to be just another player to disagree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
the armor models themselves serve as class to class differential uniqueness. this is one layer of uniqueness between this guy and that guy. color unique to each class should be limited to general color ranges, for example: White Mages should not wear black or dark colors and Black mages should not have many light color choices.
Gear having color variations adds a second layer of uniqueness, but this time among the same armour within the same class. it shows that both that character according to ingame lore and that RL players taste is at least that color preference is at least that color different than the next guy.
but if the class itself is more neutral then i think they shouldnt have many color restrictions at all. id think archers would usually stay away from stark white or jet black but i could see those too classes wearing pretty much any color, so why limit it?
and as a side note, i dont remember anyone complaining about armor colors, the complaints were much more umbrella than that with other aspects being more important. -
10-08-2011, 03:45 AMOscillate_WildlyThere's no aesthetic uniqueness to having to wear a specific colour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Why don't you just ask, as everyone else does, for a healer? O:
And you act as though this is going to solve all of your problems, as though everyone is suddenly going to start wearing the piece of armour.
Just determining DD is red, and Tank is Blue isn't uniqueness at all. Especially when every DD is going to resemble the next DD and so on within the same class.
If you want class uniqueness, call for better skills, weapon stances, and purpose. Not a colour scheme.
What I am able to do well as a mage shouldn't depend on the colour of robe I'm wearing or not wearing. It should depend solely on my skills, my choice in weapon, and role I'm asked/want to play. -
10-08-2011, 03:45 AMBetelgeuzahLooking at all the robes available, if many colored items of the same category share the same color the stats are also consistent with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
Oh yeah, aside from the color. Or are you going to argue that color plays no role in aesthetics next? Although.... you just did. That is... amazing.Quote:
There's no aesthetic uniqueness to having to wear a specific colour.
You have used up your argument a long time ago, that statement pretty much proves it. You can have your ill-formed opinion, I don't care.
Better than looking the same as... well, everyone.Quote:
Why would you want to look the same as every other warrior?
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10-08-2011, 03:55 AMOscillate_WildlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
No you misunderstand him. How is it aesthetically unique across the board for all archers of a same rank to wear a Blue Tunic? It's not. The colour offers an aesthetic, but you forget that if it's lightly impossed because of its stats, then how is it 'unique' for all archers to be wearing the same coloured piece of equipment?
The fact is its not.
The colour of your items used to not care and was just for aesthetic purposes, however now they do. And with the dyes bestowing stats, you may be able to tell what role the mage is playing depending on how he or she is geared, but can you really? As the dyes don't have a purpose that follows logic, it largely depends on the piece of gear itself and who it is made for.
Like you said, a red haub won't resemble a red robe. And a Gladiator cannot wear a robe, and so on and so forth. But that was never the case. They never offered similar stats, and were never offered in a way that they could equally wear the Haub.
When was this ever a problem that now we need a dye system to tell us further what to wear, that restrictions and new models couldn't achieve?
I like a bit of variety, I like the choice as a lancer to wear either scale mail, actons now? and I think there's a shirt in there somewhere I can wear. Each offer different stats, I suppose, but of course one model will always be better. Then what is the point of having other models available? You may as well lock 1 class per armour model.