Why does White Mage feel so bland?

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

What? Whm still has the best healing toolkit even with the ast buffs. Our dps also can't be matched even by sch. The only reason we don't put up sch dps numbers is because we're being amazing at healing. That doesn't sound like a ~bitch to me.

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To be fair, SCH will still beat WHM DPS except perhaps on PoM burst (and even then I'm not sure since Dissipation can be used for ++Energy Drain as a DPS opener). WHM DPS also isn't nearly as sustainable and is 100% subject to accuracy checks.

The part about the healing toolkit I am in complete agreement with, though. No other class has the variety and power of heals with as few resource and cooldown restrictions as WHM.

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Originally Posted by Gist

But it has less potency (and range!) than Medica II (which now has less potency than Aspected Helios).

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With or without that 'basically up whenever you need it' +30% healing potency cooldown?

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

To be fair, SCH will still beat WHM DPS except perhaps on PoM burst (and even then I'm not sure since Dissipation can be used for ++Energy Drain as a DPS opener). WHM DPS also isn't nearly as sustainable and is 100% subject to accuracy checks.

The part about the healing toolkit I am in complete agreement with, though. No other class has the variety and power of heals with as few resource and cooldown restrictions as WHM.

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I will agree with the sustsinability point but accuracy hasn't been a problem for me yet. However, I can easily burst 1k dps with a pot + pom. Figuring out where I can dps in a fight has been key to getting bosses down. I find that very valuable.

Edit: I still question the sustainabilty of our dps. I have yet to be secondary healer for anything. If I didn't have to heal my ass off for savage I could see our dps being pretty good overall too.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I will agree with the sustsinability point but accuracy hasn't been a problem for me yet. However, I can easily burst 1k dps with a pot + pom. Figuring out where I can dps in a fight has been key to getting bosses down. I find that very valuable.

Edit: I still question the sustainabilty of our dps. I have yet to be secondary healer for anything. If I didn't have to heal my ass off for savage I could see our dps being pretty good overall too.

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1k+ burst is also easily accomplished on SCH in the same time frame with a pot (that's not even getting to the point of using Dissipation for extra Energy Drains to weave in). All the healers are actually fairly close in DPS potential, but SCH wins due to slightly higher overall DPS, greater sustainability (you will run out of MP much faster on WHM and AST, especially if you are attempting to keep up heals while you DPS), and fewer accuracy checks.

Having a hit check on EVERY spell does hurt WHMs in raid content; having so much as a 10% or 20% miss rate can significantly impact your numbers.

Yeah, but unlike SCH and AST, WHM has a guaranteed spot in every raid, probably always will, just due to their massive cure potency.

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Originally Posted by Noira

Whm only feels bland because you think WHm is supposed to be this press 1 to heal the party to full.

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This is what White Mages have done in literally every FF game ever, so yeah, that's what I think lol

Well maybe I'm just a dull boring person because I actually find whm really fun.

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Originally Posted by Gist

This is what White Mages have done in literally every FF game ever, so yeah, that's what I think lol

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That uh...wouldn't work very well for an MMO.

WHM is your basic healer, no frills, just straight potency. Same for their DPS spells. Straight damage, very few frilly spells or dots. SCH's DPS is slightly higher but have more mechanics and rules and upkeep. A WHM's spells each are very potent and given instant damage, but SCH spells deal low damage but DoT and usually can't miss but you have to wait X amount of time for the damage. To this end, WHM is more of a "set it and forget it" whereas SCH is more of a preventative healer or HoT through damage mititgation rather than straight potency. AST is a mix of the two with the stances with a few other tricks.

I mean, it feels ... not like the way they have always been for the past 20 years. I understand that some leeway needs to be allowed due to the difference between a standard JRPG and an MMO, but it still feels like I'm not the breath of life that keeps my team alive (outside of stacking for a Cure III, that is my favorite part about this job <3).

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

WHM is your basic healer

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That's what they have been made for and what the class is good at. It's all about burst vs sustained. WHM is pretty much burst everything including on damage. A SCH rotation can sustain DPS and their heals do the same. AST is still trying to work out what it's good at which is why they keep buffing various things like it's heals and cards.

From the start all they have really done with WHM is nerf it which shows the developers feel it's OP since it's the primary Healer and can solo heal pretty much anything in the right hands.

Basic isn't really something that's good to first come to mind. Complicated isn't really super good either, especially since this game is pretty relaxed when it comes to that stuff(No 183 point placement that determines your skills or ridiculous math going on to even figure out how dots work). But every class has a thing that it brings and that people can identify, and a lot of the time it's kinda crazy. White mages don't even really have a mechanic, which only the Paladin can say they don't have either; but the paladin is now a very unique tank class because it has a cast time heal and can make barriers, as well as use stoneskin, raise and protect. White mages feel bland compared to other classes cause they totally are, and I think the "heals real good" as the defining attribute of the class has to change so that they can make more and new healing classes without the White Mage either being needed to do anything or tossed aside.

Well, SE with the expansion brought a big problem.

They homogenized Healer classes too much. ALL healing classes share too many similar skills that step on what other job is supposed to do. With the addition of Astro is even worse because what it was supposed to be a WHM or a SCH niche, is no more.

Personally, I've always thought of White mage as being the most bland class simply because it strikes me as filling the generic starting healer class niche. Don't get me wrong, it's still interesting, but I see it as being like a Holy priest in WoW or any other healer whose main attribute is that they do pure healing and not much else. For me, it's the class that I'd pick if I'd never healed before in order to get a good idea of how to do straight healing while leveling, then move on to either SCH or AST for a more interesting role.

Of course, I can see other people enjoying it vastly more than the other healers, but that's just not my play style, and the decision of what you play for healers, especially after the AST buffs, comes down to what play style you prefer. However, I can't claim to know definitively that any class is better than another, or that they are all viable, as I have yet to reach 60 and will probably not raid even when or if I do hit max level, of course.

This been on my mind. WHM was my first job to 50 in 2.0 and my first to 60 in 3.0

In 2.0 WHM was fun enough. They felt distinct. They were "The Healer that doesnt use shields but has stronger direct heals and better aoe healing". Since SCH balanced that out by being tank buster healer it worked out.

Entering 3.0 leveling WHM was fun. Getting new tools was exciting. New aoe heals, cool bubble heal, new dmg skills. But after I was 60 for awhile I realized "I am mainly doing exactly what I did in 2.0, new tools are cool but super situational". Situational they were, most the time I would end up sitting on most my new skills and stick to CureI/II formula. Maybe a situation would come up when I get to use a new healing tool once per dungeon if I was lucky. But I quickly got bored and went to level AST.

AST basically was WHM but with its own "support gimmick". Everything was so much more fun Essential Dignity feels 100x better then Tetra. Overall it made me realize that WHM never had a identity in first place. It whole identity was "I am a regular healer with no shields". Atleast AST has a support identity to it.

I really want to love WHM. It was my first job and I want to be loyal. But its not fun to play. It has no identity, no gimmick, no meaning. Honestly I am not sure what they could do to give WHM a identity, making it unique.

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Originally Posted by Liselsia

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Being a burst healer and burst dps with pretty good aoe dps is a pretty good identity if you ask me. SE just needs to stop watering down all classes and make them the exact same just to make them viable to endgame.

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Originally Posted by Gist

Why does White Mage feel so bland?

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Because, you're playing it wrong.

White Mage is the king of pure raw healing output. Yes, AST has a couple of spells that have a tiny bit higher potency than white mage, but never forget DAT REGEN! :D On a normal A1S clear, regen is about 30% of my total healing, another 30% coming from the HoT from Medica 2 with about 15% coming from the initial Medica 2. AST + WHM in savage is just LOLEASY to heal. All of those HoTs are insane. White Mage still has Cure 3, Presence of Mind, Divine Seal, Assize (♥the love of my life♥), and Benediction. White Mage will never grow obsolete with our current 3 healers.

I've got a good solution to the whiners out here. How about you deinstall the game as the SECOND a different class than you're class gets buff, Your class is suddenly worthless. Get over yourself and stop playing the game. God i tell you these little kiddy's now a days, all they do is cry & whine. Maybe appreciate the game a bit and enjoy it. There is nothing wrong with WHM.

I personally love my white mage. Oh that beautiful job..I like the burst of healing potency and the regen that lets me sustain a player, party and do damage to the mob for a short period if needed.

I use my regens to sustain a DPS who I know is going to stand in things so I can focus on the main tank, I can use asylum with regen to keep them up so I can go into DPS stance apply my DOTS right before I jump back and Tetra the tank back up to full. My mind just goes with all that is being taken care of. I believe it is like any other job, there's a basic way to play then there is an exceptional way to play. You utilize everything at your disposal it make things much more fun. Or maybe people are and are still bored, in which case I don't know I find plenty to do. I got friends who like SCH or AST more, and that's fine by me. But if you are not happy with your job, try another you might find the complexity in some way that keeps your interest. As for me..I am going to grab my booby staff and pop that Presence of Mind and let the spells flow!

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

Assize (♥the love of my life♥)

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You said it best, Lala Mario. c:

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Being a burst healer and burst dps with pretty good aoe dps is a pretty good identity if you ask me. SE just needs to stop watering down all classes and make them the exact same just to make them viable to endgame.

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I feel that mixing up role and identity.

Shaman from WoW is a decent example. If you were to describe its identity how would you do so ? You certainly would not say "raid healer" would you ? That just its role as a healer. All it skills and ability were incredibly unique and fit into the theme of Shaman. They were this really cool supportive healer with neat chain heal mechanics and creative and neat ways to heal main tank.

WHM role certainly is a aoe healer but when you start asking what is its identity ? What theme are all its skills based around you sort of end up with nothing and just end up repeating itself [It gots gud heals]. Here the thing having good heals is not a identity, on the opposite its a requirement for all healers. To preserve that pseudo-identity you would have to do what you wished against and water down ever other healer. Which is exactly what SE tried to do with AST. They made heals weak because it crossed over WHM's [I heal gud] identity.

WHM is in middle of a identity crisis with nothing to call it own with little to no theme. Unfortunately its not something a patch can fix. Most likely it be this way until 4.0

When will we get Reraise? Dia? How about Full-Life?

Ok, so I found the problem. You haven't leveled the other healers to 60, so you can't accurately determine the difference in the three healers for end-game content. So, allow me to explain.

White Mage: AoE King in both heals and DPS. Highest possible heal output.
Scholar: Tank heal and mitigation. Highest possible DPS output.
Astrologian: Decent in AoE heals and AoE mitigation. Most party utility.

It seems to me, that as long as there remains three healers, we all have a separate identity.

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

Ok, so I found the problem. You haven't leveled the other healers to 60, so you can't accurately determine the difference in the three healers for end-game content. So, allow me to explain.

White Mage: AoE King in both heals and DPS. Highest possible heal output.
Scholar: Tank heal and mitigation. Highest possible DPS output.
Astrologian: Decent in AoE heals and AoE mitigation. Most party utility.

It seems to me, that as long as there remains three healers, we all have a separate identity.

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WHM and AST Diurnal play exactly alike. Cure/Bene Procs, heal potency CD, regen, party regen etc... Does it feel a little differente because of cards and some effects? Yes. Is it enough to call it a completely different experience like SCH is? No.

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Originally Posted by Gist

When will we get Reraise? Dia? How about Full-Life?

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Haste, Reraise, Dia, Renew, Arise, Blink, Shell, Cure 4, Reflect, Dispel, Wall, Float, Bravery... All these spells can be added to the game, but SQEX seems focused in Stone and Aero most (really, couldn't Tetragramatton be called Renew? ARGH).

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

WHM and AST Diurnal play exactly alike. Cure/Bene Procs, heal potency CD, regen, party regen etc... Does it feel a little differente because of cards and some effects? Yes. Is it enough to call it a completely different experience like SCH is? No.

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Stop ignoring the staple of their AoE heals. Cure 3 and Assize can't simply be ignored. A good White Mage will know how to use Cure 3 and make it feel very different from AST Diurnal.

The same argument you make could also be made of AST Nocturnal and SCH. They play almost the exact same.

It's the little differences in spells that are different that make the classes feel so unique.

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

Stop ignoring the staple of their AoE heals. Cure 3 and Assize can't simply be ignored. A good White Mage will know how to use Cure 3 and make it feel very different from AST Diurnal.

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Yes, because 2 skills surely make the class gameplay completely different. It doesn't really matter if a "good WHM" knows how to use 2 spells, what we are discussing here is gameplay. The way someone heals with a Diurnal AST is the same someone heals with a WHM. The differences in skills are so basic that it doesn't count (and let's be honest, Cure III is just potency AOE, it doesn't add ANYTHING other than that).

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

The same argument you make could also be made of AST Nocturnal and SCH. They play almost the exact same.

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YES. That's the point. AST is so bad designed that it became a watered down version of its "counterparts".

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

It's the little differences in spells that are different that make the classes feel so unique.

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"Little differences" doesn't make anything unique. If SQEX failed in creating a third healer job, I fear what will come out when the fourth healer class is created.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

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This. Square Enix clearly ran out of resources/creativity during development. The new jobs bring nothing different in terms gameplay, and most of the old ones were homogenized and lost good part of their identity. If this is what the future holds, i am afraid this game will not last long.

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Originally Posted by lirovaldo

This. Square Enix clearly ran out of resources/creativity during development. The new jobs bring nothing different in terms gameplay, and most of the old ones were homogenized and lost good part of their identity. If this is what the future holds, i am afraid this game will not last long.

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No drama please.
Yes it is an issue, but SE saved this game once, i'm pretty sure they will do what's right if everything starts going downhill again.
AND this is just the first expansion, we have a long long LONG road ahead...

AST isn't WHM. WHM isn't AST. They both play differently. Copy and paste from the other 52 page thread on the 'WHM identity crisis'

I agree their foundation spells (direct heal) are relatively the same, and that's okay. It makes the classes easy to approach for a beginner. I think tanks are very much in the same position as healers in this regard (and maybe BRD/MCH though I haven't played much MCH to know if this is 100% true)

It's when you start managing CDs, stance dancing and micromanaging other players (through cards) and yourself (being very strategic with timing of cards and buffing cards/your own abilities) that take the classes to another level.

So yes, at a very basic play-style all three healers are the same. As soon as you take it to an intermediate or advanced level they all play very differently.

Do we need to complicate the beginner level by adding gimmicky spells? I personally don't think so. I think it is up to the individual to take the job to a new level and push their limits in game-play.


AST plays very differently to WHM even though they have similar spells. AST plays very differently from SCH even though they have similar spells.

AST has it's advantages - it is a bit more mobile than the other two, it can offer support to other classes, it's light to play and very face paced.

AST also has it's disadvantages - it can lose control quite quickly especially when you've already used synastry & lightspeed for another mechanic, support is very rng and not consistent enough to replace a brd/mch in raid, cards won't compensate for stupid play no matter how your rng is, has less healing utility than WHM/SCH, and very little DPS utility. WHM has the best healing utility. None of the other classes match it.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Seal_Icon.pnghttp://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Seal_Icon.pnghttp://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Seal_Icon.pnghttp://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Seal_Icon.pnghttp://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Seal_Icon.png

Personally I believe that AST has a higher skill cap because a) it's less forgiving to mistakes and b) the cards are a very big distraction for minimal benefit. Therefore not a lot of people will play it well enough to constitute bringing a WHM over AST for progression.

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Originally Posted by Rewind

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This.
This.
This.
and again
THIS.
Thank you

Oh the things that never change and of course the AST-WHM 'plays the same' non-sense comes in too! It's fun to see someone practically saying "oh two skills don't change how a job plays". Someone must have missed Fell Cleave and Deliverance stance for Warrior. An already good tank that did the most DPS becoming stronger. WHM only got stronger too because of certain skills.

I mean come on no other healing job has the potency of Stone III, nor a spell like Holy. Oh you have gravity? Yours has no stun, and to add to that your stun skill has a long cooldown that serves another purpose. You also don't have a skill that does three things at once: Heal/AoE damage/MP Restore. Plus you don't even have MP restore either, you have only MP refresh skills, and one is RNG based that kind of reduces the utility of your job if you have to keep using it on yourself.

Anyway Rewind is 100% correct. I'm done!

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Originally Posted by technole

I mean come on no other healing job has the potency of Stone III nor a spell like Holy

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You do know that Malefic II is only 10 potency less than Stone III but 5% faster cast time right? It's actually better than Stone III. AST single target DPS rotation is exactly the same as a WHM, the only differences is the dots don't have initial hits instead they just cast faster and Cards vs Assize. And cards are way better in a party the one place it really matters.

Gravity is stronger than Holy because of that 5% faster cast time as well as much much cheaper, it is also much easier and safer to chain cast away from the action and chain casting holy for the stun is stupid considering how fast stun diminishing returns and immunity is.

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Originally Posted by Raso

You do know that Malefic II is only 10 potency less than Stone III but 5% faster cast time right? It's actually better than Stone III. AST single target DPS rotation is exactly the same as a WHM, the only differences is the dots don't have initial hits instead they just cast faster and Cards vs Assize. And cards are way better in a party the one place it really matters.

Gravity is stronger than Holy because of that 5% faster cast time as well as much much cheaper, it is also much easier and safer to chain cast away from the action and chain casting holy for the stun is stupid considering how fast stun diminishing returns and immunity is.

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Most of this is so...wrong.

- The spells you listed have the same base casting times as their WHM counterparts. Diurnal Sect's passive bonus is what can increase AST's casting speed, but we need to be real about this: you can rarely sit there and belt out Malefic II while maintaining your DoTs. Any need to heal or to stop what you're doing to handle a mechanic severely blunts the already-modest (read: negligible) effect that this casting speed bonus gives you. Stone III is undeniably a superior DPS spell.

- Similarly, casting Gravity ever-so-slightly faster in Diurnal is inconsequential. If you could chain together enough Gravity spells to make the difference in casting speed matter, you...well, you couldn't, because your MP would be gone long before then. Also, having Holy as an on-demand stun is a huge advantage in a dungeon setting. By the time the stun-lock from the Holy spam wears off (assuming it was done correctly), most thing should be dead or very quickly dying.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Most of this is so...wrong.

- Similarly, casting Gravity ever-so-slightly faster in Diurnal is inconsequential. If you could chain together enough Gravity spells to make the difference in casting speed matter, you...well, you couldn't, because your MP would be gone long before then. Also, having Holy as an on-demand stun is a huge advantage in a dungeon setting. By the time the stun-lock from the Holy spam wears off (assuming it was done correctly), most thing should be dead or very quickly dying.

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hahahahahha dungeons.
hahaha..

Can we compare solo ability too?
I mean SCH > all at solo because of the pet and bane.

hahahaha.
Please leave grownups are talking.

K DPS Breakdown

SCH supremely has the top DPS in both dungeons and raids. Dot effects means for consistently greater damage over time. There are very little encounters not attunded to this. Also has the best MP regen mechanisms to manage their DPS and heals.


WHM has better DPS than AST for a couple of reasons both in dungeons and raids.

• Holy - Stun is actually very important in dungeons, and allows for chain DPS wihtin that stun period as there is no outgoing damage (less stance dancing)
• Holy Raids - There are some mobs that need to be stunned an an AoE stun effect, allbeit small is still useful to interupt casts.
• Aero III - Though having the chance to miss, is a relative low MP AoE spell very useful in dungeons & A2/3s
• http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Mind_Icon.pnghttp://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Mind_Icon.pnghttp://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Mind_Icon.pnghttp://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Mind_Icon.pnghttp://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Mind_Icon.pnghttp://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Mind_Icon.png
• WHM also has one of the most annoying DPS abilities in game!!! Now we can continue our god complex, deciding when people live or die and where they have to DPS http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Aura_Icon.png. (Actually useful ability in the aero+fluid aura GcD transition and knockback in some mechanical situations)
• I forgot Assize - best mobile AoE DPS in game! Now with MP regen and healing potency! :P

AST has okay DPS but it is intentionally designed to be a bit weaker because its function as support and buffing others DPS.

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Originally Posted by Staris

hahahahahha dungeons.
hahaha..

Can we compare solo ability too?
I mean SCH > all at solo because of the pet and bane.

hahahaha.
Please leave grownups are talking.

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Because Gravity is a huge factor in raids...but of course.

Sadly, your grown-up reading comprehension skills were too meager to actually factor in the context of the post to which I was directly responding. Try again, dear.

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Originally Posted by Staris

hahahahahha dungeons.
hahaha..

Can we compare solo ability too?
I mean SCH > all at solo because of the pet and bane.

hahahaha.
Please leave grownups are talking.

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MUH SCHOLAR DEEPS ARE SO GOOD IN DUNGEONS.

http://puu.sh/jCMEY.png

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Originally Posted by mp-please

MUH SCHOLAR DEEPS ARE SO GOOD IN DUNGEONS.

http://puu.sh/jCMEY.png

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10 holy casts with a single pack pull of 10 mobs?

You're either:
Undersizing the party with just you and the tank.
The dps are doing terribly wrong
You have an near infinite MP pool
The tank has no need for healing for the 24s/30s worth of time casting holy.
A combination of above

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

10 holy casts with a single pack pull of 10 mobs?

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More than possible

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You have an near infinite MP pool

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You pop SoS at 75% and things go better than expected, mainly on such big pull where screw everything and go full dps. Don't forget that passive mp regen exists and assize restores 10% mp.

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Undersizing the party with just you and the tank.
The dps are doing terribly wrong

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Same thing, sometimes it's almost like they aren't present.

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The tank has no need for healing for the 24s/30s worth of time casting holy.

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And what is divine seal regen + asylum + E4E to reduce incoming damage? Benediction, tetra also exist and regen refreshment barely take any time and holy stuns allow ticks to do their job when mobs are at they highest damaging potential. Even if you deduct 5 holy casts to refresh hots, dps is still higher than scholar, point is still proven.

Also if things die too fast, both classes dot ticks won't have time to fully tick, considering whm has less dots and less prep time, it suffers less dps losses on a large pull than scholar does. Didn't you noticed the weird 31 second timer? Full tick timer is the reason.