Only 2 dungeons per now vs 3....terrible idea

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Originally Posted by erish

Yet fast forward to heavensward it seems we are getting less content per patch than before

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Huh. I must have missed 3.1 and 3.2. Are you playing some advanced build we plebs don't have yet?

We have had no true content patches yet. Therefore you cannot say definitively that Heavensward patches have less content.
So far, all we have had is unlocking content we knew were getting beforehand (Alex+Savage), Esoterics and Scrips and then Hotfixes/Adjustments for launch content.

When 3.1 drops and has considerably less content in it than ARR patches, which had 3 Dungeons, an extension to CT or Coil and a Primal with the requisite MSQs to unlock them, you could then say we're getting less.
We also had some side stuff in Hildibrand, which has not been ruled out as far as i know.

Basically, 2 Dungeons, New MSQ, new Alliance Raid and new Gold Saucer stuff is essentially equal to the new content we got during 2.1.

There has been next to no solid information released regarding the magnitude of content we're getting in 3.1. We've had little more than hints. Save your falling sky routine for AFTER we get the patch.

Also, I'd like to point out that WoW almost never creates new 5man dungeons during an expansion. MoP had 8 dungeons. The heroic modes for which just upgraded the HP/Damage of the mobs within.
So no, XIV isn't heading anywhere near WoW.

i'm ok with 2 new Dungeons instead of 1

Honestly, dungeons are just glorified hallways now. I thought they would be good after playing Castrum for the first time, but apparently not. If they're not going to change the design, then i'm fine with them working on new content. I'm not sold on the airship content either, though. I'm suspecting it to be either very barebones, or to have some extremely stupid attribute.

Dungeons are gauntlet gambits of running down corridors, defeating enemies with very basic mob algorithms, with the bosses only getting that kind of care and attention. There is hardly any huge thoughtful design that goes into making them (They do look gorgeous -- it's Square after all) outside of the lore aspects; they are not overly complicated to complete, and generally always have one particular solution to their completion. Their replay value is only based on the necessity for chances at mediocre X-potion, Dye, X-ether drops, glamour gear, minions, and more commonly ex or high level daily roulette.

I am not upset that they're cutting down on the amount of dungeons on release, especially if they want to find a way to incorporate more replay value in the dungeons they've already introduce or with the new dungeons they plan to release.

And in honesty, the Devs haven't touched the guildhest leve system at all since it's been launched in 2.0. You could easily create replay value in dungeons with that system alone by just changing up the conditions for the dungeon in question -- "Defeat these mobs within this time limit" / "Defeat this boss" / "Protect this NPC"/ "Collect these items". That would definitely add a little more flavor to the basic grind.

But here's to hoping for more interesting content other than 24 man raids, extreme primals, and savage runs.

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Originally Posted by RygaenYuui

And in honesty, the Devs haven't touched the guildhest leve system at all since it's been launched in 2.0. You could easily create replay value in dungeons with that system alone by just changing up the conditions for the dungeon in question -- "Defeat these mobs within this time limit" / "Defeat this boss" / "Protect this NPC"/ "Collect these items".

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I am perfectly fine with them leaving guildhests alone, i was already peeved that it was mandatory for the main Story progression, but it only serves to teach game mechanics and nothing else, there is no real reason for them anymore.

As far as dungeons go. even if we have 3-5 dungeons people will simply pick the fastest one and spam it. so this whining about only having 2 dungeons is pretty odd. Even recently people were complaning that the story dungeon reserach facility was not in the roultee but if you notice that dungeon is far longer then the other 2 (if it had the same Enemies with HP). so that would have just been skipped entirely most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Basically, 2 Dungeons, New MSQ, new Alliance Raid and new Gold Saucer stuff is essentially equal to the new content we got during 2.1.

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How is it equal when it is less? Last time I checked 3 > 2. Aside from the raid and msq, Gold Saucer should have been focused on back in 2.5X, they released two patches 2.56 and 2.57 as nothing but nurfs before 3.0 dropped, 2.56 came out on 4/20, 2.57 followed 22 days later further nurfing what 2.56 already did. Then 3.0 drops 38 days after 2.57, If you look back at when 2.56 dropped from when 3.0 released it's 60 days, 2 months... 72 days if you count the days since the release of 2.55. They would have had plenty of time to up the amount of Gold Saucer mini games and keep the quantity of patches on par if they didn't waste time on two meaningless nurf patches.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Huh. I must have missed 3.1 and 3.2. Are you playing some advanced build we plebs don't have yet?

We have had no true content patches yet. Therefore you cannot say definitively that Heavensward patches have less content.
So far, all we have had is unlocking content we knew were getting beforehand (Alex+Savage), Esoterics and Scrips and then Hotfixes/Adjustments for launch content.

When 3.1 drops and has considerably less content in it than ARR patches, which had 3 Dungeons, an extension to CT or Coil and a Primal with the requisite MSQs to unlock them, you could then say we're getting less.
We also had some side stuff in Hildibrand, which has not been ruled out as far as i know.

Basically, 2 Dungeons, New MSQ, new Alliance Raid and new Gold Saucer stuff is essentially equal to the new content we got during 2.1.

There has been next to no solid information released regarding the magnitude of content we're getting in 3.1. We've had little more than hints. Save your falling sky routine for AFTER we get the patch.

Also, I'd like to point out that WoW almost never creates new 5man dungeons during an expansion. MoP had 8 dungeons. The heroic modes for which just upgraded the HP/Damage of the mobs within.
So no, XIV isn't heading anywhere near WoW.

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Clearly you cant understand what i wrote so ill explain it to you, "It appears" as in seems to, on first glance, this is by no means defintive its also like saying IN MY OPINION! i know i know these word things so confusing an all. Its because of these as you put it "Hints" that some people are discouraged that there main activity in the game ( read : people like me, HI! ) seems to be getting less content than before, this is not an unreasonable concern. No one has ever stated sky falling etc so save the die hard love for 14 for someone else please or at least re-read what i wrote and try to understand the meaning of or if you like jist of what i wrote then perhaps you might understand players like myself concern for these "HINTS" as you put it.

My comment about wow was not focused on there patchs adding new dungeons, my comment was such that it was trying to draw a line in the fact that after wrath, Blizzard signifactly reduced the amount of dungeons and there viablity through an expansion, and im hopeing that SE doesnt follow this trend, because i for one do actually enjoy 14s dungeons except AV ( horrible place! ).

i prefer 3 dungeons with 2 bosses than 2 dungeons with 3 .... DR expert is boring already ... making it shorter and varied is the right thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

I am perfectly fine with them leaving guildhests alone, i was already peeved that it was mandatory for the main Story progression, but it only serves to teach game mechanics and nothing else, there is no real reason for them anymore.

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Actually guildhest can teach players certain phases of boss mechanics 3 months after they have been launched. If you actually look at EX Primals after two months, the PF is farm party and know the fight. Doesn't have to be a copy and paste of the fight, just use normal mobs and area that act out specifics of the phase. Guildhest can help with this.

As for 2 dungeons, I'm fine with it if they are adding new, different content. After a few days, the dungeons just enter the roulette inventory anyway.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

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Last time i checked -
2 Dungeons + 1 MSQ + 1 Gold Saucer Update + new Alliance Raid
=
3 Dungeons + 1 MSQ + Alliance Raid.

We drop one dungeon and gain new content elsewhere. Seems pretty "equal" to me.
Oh by the way, most of the 'new' dungeons we got were Hard Modes of existing dungeons. We got 5 brand new Dungeons in the life of ARR compared to 10 hard mode updates to existing dungeons.
As you can imagine, It is significantly easier to do a Hard Mode than a brand new dungeon.
If the 2 Dungeons we get in 3.1 are both brand new then we haven't really lost anything at all.


As for Toilet Duck,
You have done nothing but suppose and predict. Your entire post reads like someone who saw what Yoshi said and now believes what Yoshi directly discussed is all of what 3.1 will deliver.
You cannot make the claims you made in the post i quoted based on the small hints and guarded statements Yoshi has given so far.
You do not know the scope of the new Alliance Raid.
You do not know the magnitude of the 2 new dungeons.
You do not know what the Relic line will entail.
You do not know what is in store for the Gold Saucer outside of Yoshis statement that it will be a new large attraction.
You do not know what sort of Side Quests we will get.
You do not know if we're going to get new Primals.
You do not know if we're going to get new Trials not related to Primals.
You do not know whats coming for FC Airships.

There is a whole lot you simply do not know about whats coming.

So your claim that we're getting less per patch makes absolutely no sense. Especially since you based it completely on Yoshi telling us we're going to get 2 Dungeons instead of 3.
If your main activity is Dungeon grinding, then mayhaps you should expand your horizons a bit and engage in some of the other content the game has to offer, Otherwise you will always feel like you're getting shafted. You are not the only person playing FFXIV.
Do you demand new Light party dungeons at the cost of brand new content not seen before simply because your main activity is dungeons? No, you do not. You just accept that not every patch is going to give you everything you ever wanted.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Not sure you actually understand what is happening. They are diverting resources by doing 2 dungeons per patch instead of 3 in order to give you something else. We are trading AAA for AAB not AA. -_____-

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BB*

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Last time i checked -
2 Dungeons + 1 MSQ + 1 Gold Saucer Update + new Alliance Raid
=
3 Dungeons + 1 MSQ + Alliance Raid.

We drop one dungeon and gain new content elsewhere. Seems pretty "equal" to me.
Oh by the way, most of the 'new' dungeons we got were Hard Modes of existing dungeons. We got 5 brand new Dungeons in the life of ARR compared to 10 hard mode updates to existing dungeons.
As you can imagine, It is significantly easier to do a Hard Mode than a brand new dungeon.
If the 2 Dungeons we get in 3.1 are both brand new then we haven't really lost anything at all.


As for Toilet Duck,
You have done nothing but suppose and predict. Your entire post reads like someone who saw what Yoshi said and now believes what Yoshi directly discussed is all of what 3.1 will deliver.
You cannot make the claims you made in the post i quoted based on the small hints and guarded statements Yoshi has given so far.
You do not know the scope of the new Alliance Raid.
You do not know the magnitude of the 2 new dungeons.
You do not know what the Relic line will entail.
You do not know what is in store for the Gold Saucer outside of Yoshis statement that it will be a new large attraction.
You do not know what sort of Side Quests we will get.
You do not know if we're going to get new Primals.
You do not know if we're going to get new Trials not related to Primals.
You do not know whats coming for FC Airships.

There is a whole lot you simply do not know about whats coming.

So your claim that we're getting less per patch makes absolutely no sense. Especially since you based it completely on Yoshi telling us we're going to get 2 Dungeons instead of 3.
If your main activity is Dungeon grinding, then mayhaps you should expand your horizons a bit and engage in some of the other content the game has to offer, Otherwise you will always feel like you're getting shafted. You are not the only person playing FFXIV.
Do you demand new Light party dungeons at the cost of brand new content not seen before simply because your main activity is dungeons? No, you do not. You just accept that not every patch is going to give you everything you ever wanted.

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Why are you so desperate to try and twist my words? so in response ill simply post the first Sentence from my previous retort to you.

"Clearly you cant understand what i wrote so ill explain it to you, "It appears" as in seems to, on first glance, this is by no means defintive its also like saying IN MY OPINION!"

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

How is it equal when it is less? Last time I checked 3 > 2.

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Equal of content =/= equal of dungeons

2 dungeons + something else is still 3 contents

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Didn't Yoshida state that FFXIV was a success, and a hit multiple times? They do have enough money to fund additional development team staff, but it'll eat into their profits so of course they won't.

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That's assuming more subs mean FFXIV team gets more money. All money might go into general SE coffer and FFXIV only gets same amount as they had before.

If you read/watched the entire interview, he said they're reallocating staff to work on more unique content so there will be less dungeons per patch cycle, but more other stuff to do, which can be good or bad depending on what that content actually is, but since we don't have that information yet, we probably shouldn't be starting "the sky is falling" threads.

Besides, if this other content is fairly fun and offers Esoteric tomes or whatever up-to-date tome, it may be a lot more worthwhile to do during the week instead of spamming dungeon roulettes.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Equal of content =/= equal of dungeons

2 dungeons + something else is still 3 contents

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Except it's not because dungeons don't make up the entire game. They make up a good portion of it yes, but taking away a chuck of what made the game flush with content in hopes of getting something new is a bad mistake, Yoshida even said it was risky. Last time they tried something new for a patch it was Steps of Faith which took 2 wasteful patches to make it doable by the masses. Again reducing content in one area of the game in an attempt to bolster other areas isn't a smart idea.

Imagine going into your favorite restaurant and the waiter tells you that they had to reallocate resources to make your 3 course meal, so instead of that caesar salad with sweet french dressing, grilled chicken breast and chocolate cake. They're giving you the salad and the chicken but because of the reallocation you got chocolate dipped crickets as your dessert. But it sounds like you'd be ok with that because it's something new and potentially better.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

That's assuming more subs mean FFXIV team gets more money. All money might go into general SE coffer and FFXIV only gets same amount as they had before.

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I bet most of money that FFXIV makes went into FFXV developement. That game won't probably even return more than FFXIV, they just want to make something shiny that will move FF series further..

I respect that idea, shame that it is for our money. :D

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Imagine going into your favorite restaurant and the waiter tells you that they had to reallocate resources to make your 3 course meal, so instead of that caesar salad with sweet french dressing, grilled chicken breast and chocolate cake. They're giving you the salad and the chicken but because of the reallocation you got chocolate dipped crickets as your dessert. But it sounds like you'd be ok with that because it's something new and potentially better.

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Except with that analogy you're already going in with it assuming the new content is variably bad, so it doesn't work.

Overall Heavensward left me very good impressions and I was satisfied. The only thing I didn't like was the lack of dungeons and endgame content. I expected more dungeons.

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Originally Posted by erish

What i dont understand by Yoshi's statement is that during the 2.0 lifespam we got 3 dungeons, primals muliple side quests with long quests lines and group battles, raids with good storylines etc. Yet fast forward to heavensward it seems we are getting less content per patch than before. I mean if you can make Hildbrand questline and still do all of those things why is now when we are getting less do you need feel the need to take away ( at a guess here ) the main content for lvl 60 players. This new content better be earth shattering because personally i feel like this is heading the way of wow.

Basically what im getting at is where have all those rescources gone that went into hildbrand etc?

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Where did it go?
Well one thing to keep in mind is that starting with Heavensward, environments and gameplay is changing from smaller walking zones to bigger zones with vertical axis. So that would take more resources to develop.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

Except with that analogy you're already going in with it assuming the new content is variably bad, so it doesn't work.

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Except it does because their last attempt at new content was Steps of Faith which like I stated numerous times took 2 patches for them to "fix" and people still don't like it.

I'm kinda disappointed with only two dungeons a patch because of the way they make us grind them daily to get our tomes. If the new unique content provides a fun alternative to the monotonous grinding of so few dungeons for so long a period of time then I am all for it, otherwise I feel the game's grind is wearing increasingly thin.

i dont think we will have only 2 dungeons from 3.1 onwards. there is a difference this time compared to before heavensward which many people dont seem to SEE what will likely happen :

i think they will just ADD these 2 new dungeons to the current expert pool. and not remove the current 2 ones from it. thats the most logical. otherwise they would have to add another high level roulette for heavensward only. which i highly doubt.

also if there is only 2 dungeons then they could aswell delete expert roulette alltogether and let people choose thier dungeon of the 2 instead of always forcing neverfractal and alwaysreap like currently and add the expert tomes to the dungeons base reward.

so its way more likely imo that yoschi will just expand expert from now on. which in the end will lead to more dungeons on expert than ever before which is imo a good thing.

think about it.

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Originally Posted by Windklinge

i dont think we will have only 2 dungeons from 3.1 onwards. there is a difference this time compared to before heavensward which many people dont seem to SEE what will likely happen :

so its way more likely imo that yoschi will just expand expert from now on. which in the end will lead to more dungeons on expert than ever before which is imo a good thing.

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I really hope this is what they do, people may be feeling currently they never want to do fractal/neverreap again once new dungeons come out but it will add variety to have more possibilities on the roulette down the line.

After a while I did get tired of doing Neverreap and Fractal back to back on both normal selection in Dungeons and EX Roulette. Adding more dungeons is a solution to people getting hooked to it, but I believe that there still lies the randomness in that roulette. While in Roulette, you're basically also queueing for people who have chosen one of those two dungeons separately in Dungeons(Heavensward).

What would remedy this(to keep Roulettes fresh and not make it like @Windklinge said: 'NeverFractal and AlwaysReap') would be that the roulette randomly chooses a dungeon after all 4 people have queued. These people across all servers would be taken from those who had selected EX Roulette in the Roulette Section on the first page of DF.

I'm really surprised they haven't just created a syncing system so that they can throw more dungeons into the Expert roulette to avoid player tedium without having to sacrifice development depth on the new dungeons. Vault, Library, and Aetherochemical Research Facility all seem like easy candidates for that to start with.

Sidenote: ...oddly enough I've ExRl'd more Fractals than Reaps.

I'd honestly love it if eventually Expert Roulette only meant that it was level-cap or synced-to-level-cap content, and the bonused dungeons (the newest + some old patch's synced dungeons, composing that day's roulette) would swap out each day, possibly such that they're still lucrative after the first run (each has its own bonus, atop intial the roulette bonus, and rerunning the same dungeon through roulette still gives that dungeon's bonus, to a maximum # of bonuses received equal to the average number of embonused dungeons in a day). Seems like a development-cheap way to make Ex RL less monotonous. The old dungeons, if nothing else, would be giving glamors atop standard tome rewards; could just run the actual new stuff if you really need Valerian gear.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm really surprised they haven't just created a syncing system so that they can throw more dungeons into the Expert roulette to avoid player tedium without having to sacrifice development depth on the new dungeons. Vault, Library, and Aetherochemical Research Facility all seem like easy candidates for that to start with.

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They did implement an item level sync on the dungeons from 2.1-2.3 at 110, whereas the others have the normal level 50 item sync rules. There's technically nothing stopping them from implementing item level sync on Fractal Continuum and Neverreap.

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Originally Posted by willowmyer

That's just the thing....Yoshida mentioned less dungeons = better mechanics....but do you feel that's what 3.0 dungeons are?

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You do realize the current 3.0 duties were made alongside all the other content in the expansion? How about waiting to see what comes out first, before boarding the doom train?

If I had to pick between expert dungeons, or working job mechanics/diverse content... I would pick the latter.

I honestly am quite tired of grinding experts for weekly cap. I would rather them invest time into new game modes, beseiged, ballista, world pvp, etc... something different then the *WoW playstyle*


Grinding {no thanks}

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Originally Posted by LathusWHM

If I had to pick between expert dungeons, or working job mechanics/diverse content... I would pick the latter.

I honestly am quite tired of grinding experts for weekly cap. I would rather them invest time into new game modes, beseiged, ballista, world pvp, etc... something different then the *WoW playstyle*


Grinding {no thanks}

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So you basically want to get Eso from PvP..... because you know that is a thing right?