I severely do not like Bow Mage.

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Originally Posted by Guilty_King

To put this into perspective, unless I am in a 8man group, I hate.....HATE getting grouped with Bards and MCH. At that point I realize, my dungeon run just got longer.

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I outdpsed a drg with t9 savage title at every single boss and trash pull in fractal. I guess dragoons suck...or bard dps is better than your trolling?

And I suppose we can ignore the fact that bards are out dpsing drgs in both currently cleared savage turns, yh lets forget that.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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It's less about the changing of gameplay itself, but what was changed about it. Hunters in WoW, even with the change to focus, remained mostly what they were; a physical ranged dps with fast-acting and spammable attacks. Standing still wasn't even a thing for them because their basic filler attack (steady shot, their "heavy shot" if you will) was also a cast time ability that'd interrupt on movement. It was that ability that would regen their focus, which was used for other abilities that were instant cast, more potent than steady shot and used focus. All were on a 1.0 GCD but did not clip each other. They went from a class that had fast-paced attacks and low GCD with sustaining problems (think ninja or monk) and used very specific skills to regen it in a short time, to what I would call a much faster-paced version of FFXIV's BLM where they have to make be extremely efficient at using and regening their resource bar to perform well. In a nutshell, they retained their core concept of gameplay.


For WM here, the need to stand still wasn't too big of a deal for me because I didn't move around that much in FCoB or any content really. The introduction of a cast bar though, puts in some very unfavorable interactions with how bard functioned in 2.0. Their oGCDs start clipping with each other and now their gameflow feels extremely fragmented when you (and you will) double up on a oGCD inbetween a weaponskill because of a bloodletter reset. It's impossible to catch straighter shot procs unless you purposely delay your weapon skill (and using a oGCD inbetween doesn't help either), and repelling shot will interrupt your cast time if you're under the influence of fey wind or just straight up have too much SkS from gear/weapon. And then there's the animations...when you look at ones like empyreal arrow and windbite you can clearly tell they were not meant to clip into an oGCD at the start of their animation... Bard went from a fast-paced reactive-proc class to a slower-pace who can't pick up on half of their reactive procs

MCH on the other hand, does this fairly well even when GB is introduced at level 52. Even when I started using it at level 54 (and it was a damage loss back in 3.05), it felt more smoother than WM because MCH does not have traits or proc timings that work against it, specifically not having oGCD reset and having a very short animation for split shot. You couldn't catch procs for slug shot in time because of the longer animation, and infact you could actually double up on clean shot because it takes so long for the proc to appear (and this was hotfixxed anyway), but no one would be hard casting slug shot anyway.

And the thing that really kicks me is, outside of their utility (which honestly the only one worth mentioning is their regen, their respective vulnerability buff/debuffs don't really stand out enough to make one appealing more than the other for a given static), the two play the same when in the influence of GB/WM. You have cast times, you upkeep a DoT, and you use oGCDs. Hell, I can't even say ammo is that unique/gimmicky to machinist because honestly it's pop and forget because it's so streamlined on what it actually does and how few abilities its worth using (2, 3 if you want to split hairs, out of their entire toolkit). I've mentioned this in a couple of other threads. When we were given the very first previews on machinist, I was under the impression that they were a ranged physical class that would deal more damage by remaining stationary, and their abilities would have special interaction with ammo (And I think there was mention of having abilities that required ammo). I feel like they missed something really nice here to diffirentiate the two. But instead of homogenizing what they bring to the table, they ended up homogenizing their gameplay too.

I wish they would add a Bow Mage job for Archer. That would be so cool.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/f6ef7d125...ptt3o1_500.gif

Here is my candidate for a new job. Make it happen SE.

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Originally Posted by Sylentmana

I wish they would add a Bow Mage job for Archer. That would be so cool.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/f6ef7d125...ptt3o1_500.gif

Here is my candidate for a new job. Make it happen SE.

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That looks like a Bard to me!

Wanderer's Minuet kills BRD's mobility, but that's really the only MAJOR difference. Yes your skills all have a cast time now, but the cast times are less than the GCD, and you still have enough time to fit in an oGCD ability without clipping into you next GCD. Not to mention Bloodletter and Straight Shot procs are still instant casts. I didn't like it at first, but once you get used to it, it's actually a lot of fun to be able to stand still and fire away at stuff.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

Wanderer's Minuet kills BRD's mobility, but that's really the only MAJOR difference. Yes your skills all have a cast time now, but the cast times are less than the GCD, and you still have enough time to fit in an oGCD ability without clipping into you next GCD. Not to mention Bloodletter and Straight Shot procs are still instant casts. I didn't like it at first, but once you get used to it, it's actually a lot of fun to be able to stand still and fire away at stuff.

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I can easily move between GCD's and be efficient. When I am actually being more mobile like the orbs in Ravana EX or dealing with Earth Shakers in T13, I switch off the stance and keep doing damage, and turn it back on.

People really should stop using the mobility excuse, you can move and shoot just fine. You just can't needlessly move and shoot at the same time. Even before the raise to lv.60, I only moved my BRD out of the way to dodge attacks.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

That looks like a Bard to me!

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Then perhaps I should switch to Bard:)

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

but that's really the only MAJOR difference.

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If you choose to ignore the issues with the straighter shot procs happening after the GCD ends, the lost BL/RoD procs, and the overall slower pace.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

If you choose to ignore the issues with the straighter shot procs happening after the GCD ends, the lost BL/RoD procs, and the overall slower pace.

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See BLM for how they cope with this, because this happens all the time with Firestarter procs, Thundercloud procs, and 3+ second cast times.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

See BLM for how they cope with this, because this happens all the time with Firestarter procs, Thundercloud procs, and 3+ second cast times.

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And we'r back to hearing same argument.
Bad design is not something that should be promoted.
BLM should have been adjusted instead not the same bad design given to another job and made it worse in the process, because it is worse on bard.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

See BLM for how they cope with this, because this happens all the time with Firestarter procs, Thundercloud procs, and 3+ second cast times.

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Bards use straight shot as a regular part of their rotation. If they get the SS proc as they begin their SS cast, they get the full cast time without any of the benefits. SS is a tp loss and a dps loss if used more than necessary compared to heavy shot.
>> BLMS do not hard cast fire III while in astral. They only do it in umbral to go into astral or at the beginning of the pull (both cases you aren't casting fire I anyway to get firestarter procs) The only way you could have this happen is if you were to sharp cast fire I and immediately do fire III after...and they even fixed that in the 8/4 hotfix (while SS is still having the same problems when I tested it out yesterday).

And then you have the very nature of river of blood's interaction with cast times that can cause frequent pauses where you do the sadist choice of delaying your weapon skill or bloodletter (and risk losing a reset by doing the latter)

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

And we'r back to hearing same argument.
Bad design is not something that should be promoted.
BLM should have been adjusted instead not the same bad design given to another job and made it worse in the process, because it is worse on bard.

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My point for mentioning it is if it isn't going to be fixed on them by now, it isn't going to be fixed for BRD most likely. It's sad, but it's most likely the truth.

Here's an idea: Don't like it, don't play it.

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

Here's an idea: Don't like it, don't play it.

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Thats what many players do.
Problem is, we need BRD/MCH for end game raid end less and less people are ok to play a broken job.

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Originally Posted by Alkel

Thats what many players do.
Problem is, we need BRD/MCH for end game raid end less and less people are ok to play a broken job.

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Can you please explain exactly what is broken? Both jobs currently keep up with the other DPS just fine and providing the support necessary to beat the hardest content.

BRD has an actual skill cap now and people say its broken because of it.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

See BLM for how they cope with this, because this happens all the time with Firestarter procs, Thundercloud procs, and 3+ second cast times.

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Bad design is not justified by having more bad design.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Bad design is not justified by having more bad design.

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You're right. But some bards seems to be under the impression they are completely 100% broken and are on the verge of instinction when another class has been dealing with this shit since 2.0. And ironically ive been told be several class including bards when complaining about this to "git gud" "adapt" or "if you dont like it, reroll"

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Originally Posted by hallena

You're right. But some bards seems to be under the impression they are completely 100% broken and are on the verge of instinction when another class has been dealing with this shit since 2.0. And ironically ive been told be several class including bards when complaining about this to "git gud" "adapt" or "if you dont like it, reroll"

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And at the same time, some people still miss what some of the bards are actually complaining about and still get the wrong idea. And last I checked, BLM got their fire III not using firestarter fixed anyway, while bard still has SS procs not being used up.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

And last I checked, BLM got their fire III not using firestarter fixed anyway

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No they didn't.
BLM still waste a crapton of firestarter when enochian isnt up and waste a shitton of thundercloud procs when enochian is up
Pick your poison

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Originally Posted by hallena

You're right. But some bards seems to be under the impression they are completely 100% broken and are on the verge of instinction when another class has been dealing with this shit since 2.0. And ironically ive been told be several class including bards when complaining about this to "git gud" "adapt" or "if you dont like it, reroll"

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Most people are unsympathetic and can't see beyond their own noses. That and the internet unfortunately causes some to want to look like tough guys by saying they do things perfectly/adapt quickly/change does nothing to them. This is nothing new, sadly.

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Originally Posted by hallena

No they didn't.
BLM still waste a crapton of firestarter when enochian isnt up and waste a shitton of thundercloud procs when enochian is up
Pick your poison

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What? I meant them hard-casting fire III (and using mana) when they try to use it under the effects of firestarter. And didn't they buff thundercloud anyway?

Bards cant even use up their straighter shot proc even if they do catch it in time or use a oGCD to cancel their heavy shot animation. They quite literally have to delay their weapon skill in order for the proc to properly register. And unlike fire III, straighter shot is normally used in a bard's rotation, so in the event you do proc it and hard cast straighter shot, the proc does not get used up, your hit isn;t a crit, and you've wasted both TP (which is a finite resource mind you) and potency compared to a heavy shot.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

What? I meant them hard-casting fire III (and using mana) when they try to use it under the effects of firestarter.

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That was an issue only 0.1% of blm ever encountered. Not what we've been dealing with since 2.0