Dark Knight, or Paladin?

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Bulwark is inferior to Dark Dance in A2 for instance

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Stop with Dark Dance, it's shit. Block rate is much higher than parry rate, +30% parry rate is scaling really really low while +60% block rate is actually scaling really good even with tower shields (which are focused on block strength). At equal values, say if they both did +60%, Bulwark would give more block rate than Dark Dance would give in parry rate.
And evasion is useless in raids. You cannot dodge anything even with evasion buffs. It's not because Dark Dance has only 60 sec CD that it's superior to Bulwark. Dark Dance is unrealiable while Bulwark is.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Bulwark is inferior to Dark Dance in A2 for instance

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This is untrue *especially* in A2 because for many of the packs you aren't even going to be hit, or won't be hit enough to warrant any cooldown. You specifically have to go for maximum uptime for Dark Dance for it to even be equivalent to Bulwark in average damage mitigation over the duration of a fight (For which neither is especially high), but you don't just blow all of your cooldowns back to back in any realistic scenario, you save them for when you need them.

There are several packs where you don't need *any* cooldowns, and several packs where you need *major* cooldowns. You will have Bulwark up for the times that the impact will be meaningful, and it will be giving far more value during those times when it is available. For packs when Bulwark isn't up you have your natural block chance, which provides significantly more average damage mitigation than even having maximum uptime on Dark Dance.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Having commonly available cooldowns is better than having stronger ones with lengthy cds

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What? Do we play the same game? Basically every fight in this game is trivial fluff damage and periodic huge damage spikes that require a cooldown. High value / low uptime cooldowns are vastly superior for nearly every encounter than high uptime / low value cooldowns.

Natural block is something like 15-30% chance, even assuming 30% chance it is a whopping 6% damage mitigation...woohoo...

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Natural block is something like 15-30% chance, even assuming 30% chance it is a whopping 6% damage mitigation...woohoo...

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Which is 3 times more significant than popping Dark Dance on cooldown, for free, in addition to all of the other physical mitigation tools PLD has.

This will also continue to increase in value as the ilvl of your shield increases, whereas Dark Dance will always be 2% in an absolute best case scenario. DRK's other relevant cooldowns in A2S are Shadow Skin (matched by rampart) and Shadow Wall (Strictly inferior to Sentinel).

In return, DRK brings some mediocre AoE damage (It's not great in A2 because you get low or no value out of blood price on most packs). If you care about the damage, DRK isn't the answer in A2 - just bring warriors for the turn. They'll put out significantly more AoE DPS than either of the other tanks and do a better job of mitigating on most packs than DRK. I put out about 1100 DPS on A2S as Warrior this week, and I'm by no means the best.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Stop with Dark Dance, it's shit. Block rate is much higher than parry rate, +30% parry rate is scaling really really low while +60% block rate is actually scaling really good even with tower shields (which are focused on block strength). At equal values, say if they both did +60%, Bulwark would give more block rate than Dark Dance would give in parry rate.
And evasion is useless in raids. You cannot dodge anything even with evasion buffs. It's not because Dark Dance has only 60 sec CD that it's superior to Bulwark. Dark Dance is unrealiable while Bulwark is.

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The best tower shield blocks for 28% atm vs 20% on block. The difference is not that significant given there isnt a physical buster with a large number value being thrown against the difference like there was in Ravana EX. If you couple in the fact dark dance lasts 33% longer than bulwark, and that you can pop it 3 times for bulwarks one, it does better. Is it as good within the window its up? No--but as a power is it better? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

Which is 3 times more significant than popping Dark Dance on cooldown, for free, in addition to all of the other physical mitigation tools PLD has.

This will also continue to increase in value as the ilvl of your shield increases, whereas Dark Dance will always be 2% in an absolute best case scenario. DRK's other relevant cooldowns in A2S are Shadow Skin (matched by rampart) and Shadow Wall (Strictly inferior to rampart).

In return, DRK brings some mediocre AoE damage (It's not great in A2 because you get low or no value out of blood price on most packs). If you care about the damage, DRK isn't the answer in A2 - just bring warriors for the turn. They'll put out significantly more AoE DPS than either of the other tanks and do a better job of mitigating on most packs than DRK. I put out about 1100 DPS on A2S as Warrior this week, and I'm by no means the best.

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All the other physical mitigation tools a Paladin has?
What? Sheltron? its eaten up by an auto attack, you can time it sometimes with a dolls smack, and thats really about it. Other than that...theres what? The shield itself? Towers don't block particularly often (in terms of overall mitigation through a fight, you are better off with a kite shield, but thats not really great with sheltron as you are basically just forcing a parry).


Drk has fantastic AoE--I'm not even sure what you are comparing your AoE against; certainly not paladins. Then what? Drk AoE dps is better than wars (save in burst, where wars are clearly better) which allows them to get ahead on A2 packs understandably. EDIT: Clarification--I'm not saying DRKs beat War dps in A2. It is still however, very very good--and leagues ahead of Paladins.

Also talking about what bulwark --could-- be in the future is largely irrelevant. We are discussing the content as it, the classes as they are, the equipment as it is today.

Notably, this isnt saying DRK is OP--no one is making that argument. They are clearly in the middle atm, but there isnt much debate I feel that Pld atm is not in a good position. The shield that they route for their 'great physical mitigation' is not incredibly useful thus far in Alex (A1 favor drk and war, a2 favors war--then drk, a3 was not able to be completed with a paladin, and was done just fine with war and a dark main tank).

Low damage does not work with heavy dps checks.
High cooldown defensives do not work with the timing of busters
Beyond that, they have a slightly better shadow wall and the best immunity out of the three---but hardly a reason id pick the class.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

The best tower shield blocks for 28% atm vs 20% on block. The difference is not that significant given there isnt a physical buster with a large number value being thrown against the difference like there was in Ravana EX. If you couple in the fact dark dance lasts 33% longer than bulwark, and that you can pop it 3 times for bulwarks one, it does better. Is it as good within the window its up? No--but as a power is it better? Yes.

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I think you misunderstood my point. I was speaking about increasing parry rate vs increasing block rate. It doesn't scale the same way at all. 30% parry rate is not 30% block rate. Block rate scales much better. Dark Dance is unreliable.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

I think you misunderstood my point. I was speaking about increasing parry rate vs increasing block rate. It doesn't scale the same way at all. 30% parry rate is not 30% block rate. Block rate scales much better. Dark Dance is unreliable.

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It doesn't matter. It's obvious what the choice is. Drk and Pld are virtually worthless. It's time to pick up the Axe for optimization. Double WAR all the things:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Seku

It doesn't matter. It's obvious what the choice is. Drk and Pld are virtually worthless. It's time to pick up the Axe for optimization. Double WAR all the things:rolleyes:

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Let's swing dat axe

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Originally Posted by Seku

It doesn't matter. It's obvious what the choice is. Drk and Pld are virtually worthless. It's time to pick up the Axe for optimization. Double WAR all the things:rolleyes:

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Pretty much how all comparisons at this point have gone boiled down to their basic component.

"DRK is better than PLD"
"PLD is better than DRK"
"But if you know what you're doing WAR is still leagues better than both."

But to watch this enmity fest here, you'd think the greatest enmity skill was 'Post on Official Forums' with its one hundred times multiplier in PVP.

If our FC didn't already have a WAR I'd go WAR in a heartbeat.

Regardless of how competitive other tanks are, it is without a doubt that WAR are the best.

Its too bad they're really ugly and I hate everything about their aesthetic.

Playstyle is fun though.

WAR is the best job in the game regardless of role that's not new.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Drk has fantastic AoE--I'm not even sure what you are comparing your AoE against; certainly not paladins. Then what? Drk AoE dps is better than wars (save in burst, where wars are clearly better) which allows them to get ahead on A2 packs understandably. EDIT: Clarification--I'm not saying DRKs beat War dps in A2. It is still however, very very good--and leagues ahead of Paladins.

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Yes, I was specifically speaking of A2s, however, even sustained DRK is lower than WAR AoE. Your DPS drops like a rock as soon as Blood Price wears off (assuming you're even getting hit), whereas a Warrior can keep going for quite some time regardless of whether they are actively taking hits. If you're not actively tanking, you have to rely on single target damage while using Blood Weapon in order to get back to AoEing, and you can't keep it up for long. Salted Earth, Dark Passenger, and Abyssal Drain are quite strong tools, but Berserked triple Decimate + Overpower will outDPS and outlast them.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Also talking about what bulwark --could-- be in the future is largely irrelevant. We are discussing the content as it, the classes as they are, the equipment as it is today.

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Even in baseline gear it is equal in average damage mitigation to Dark Dance, and flatly superior for spike damage. It will only get better with gear.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Notably, this isnt saying DRK is OP--no one is making that argument. They are clearly in the middle atm, but there isnt much debate I feel that Pld atm is not in a good position. The shield that they route for their 'great physical mitigation' is not incredibly useful thus far in Alex (A1 favor drk and war, a2 favors war--then drk, a3 was not able to be completed with a paladin, and was done just fine with war and a dark main tank).

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I don't even really disagree. I think both DRK and PLD need some work to make them a bit more well-rounded, and that Warrior brings overall too much flexibility and utility compared to them.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

I have all three tanks at i188 (ravanna weapons on each) and yes. On dark I can open with grit and all my off cooldowns and three power slashes then turn off grit for the rest of the encounter and just use delirium and soul eater.

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If you lead with ShO + FoF + 4x Halone, it should generate a little more threat than a DRK that does Grit + 3x power slash + all cooldowns. That puts you 7.5 sec behind they DRK (3x PS takes 21.5s, 4x Halone takes 30s). I'd think you should be able to optimize it a bit by holding FoF +CoS till the first RoH (HS/SB unbuffed), then try to work in a couple shield swipes. This should put you exactly on par with the DRK after 30-35s when you enter sword oath. After that, you should be able to keep threat with the DRK. Maybe you'll do a bit less DPS, but CoS & Savage Blade get enmity boosters, while nothing you're using on DRK does.

You'll probably do noticeably less DPS during the DRK during this time, but I attribute that more to the fact that the PLD loses more dropping from SwO >ShO (perhaps too much) than DRK turning on Grit.

But my original argument was purely based on DRK vs. PLD using PS vs. RoH when in their respective DPS stances.

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

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I disagree on the dps. Every 45 seconds you have free 525 potency aoe, blood price is up ever 40 seconds, blood weapon (i see no drks doing this in grit) is up every 40 (you can cycle between these effectively) allowing you to slap abyssal drain and unleash as needed pretty well. Is war dps better? Yes--but they are gaining a massive lead when they do their whombo combo, then arnt actually doing 'aoes' there after (which is to say, they blow up a pack then are doing normal rotations on the next pack. Decimate is a 280 potency attack --just for comparisons sake. The reason they do so well in A2 is a timing issue than a through put issue. On the packs with LOTS of small dudes, they pop this trick and obliterate folks cause those packs also die very quickly. Its not entirely honest--if you have 10 targets that lasted longer, a dark knight would catch up certainly.

On shield--base line is 21% mitigation on a kite shield. Tower shields were being picked cause SHELLTRON....which people are largely finding useless in alexander (no physical busters) so the rate of a kite > raw block strength. At that poin its 20% mitigation vs 21, and 30% vs 60% bonus -but- with dark dance lasting 5 extra seconds (20 vs 15) and being up ever minute vs every three minutes. Neither one is amazing frankly, and while Bulwark is useful if getting your head slammed in, its not enough to justify the rest of the classes place.

Warriors are in a perfect spot frankly. Paladins just are terrible and darks need a small nudge or two.

I say go with whatever you enjoy more. People are so obsessed with playing "the best class" that they'll ignore what they enjoy because of it. If I thought that way, I'd be playing Drg instead of MCH right now. I'm going for drk myself, once I get my pld to 34 for awareness. I just like the aesthetic more.

But if you're looking for best, go Warrior. Until the Gauss Barrel buff, they used to beat MCH in dps, they have massive hp, good self healing and are probably the most well-rounded of the tanks.

Just from personal experience on ravana, my drk does 100-150 more dps, even when making mistakes and not optimizing liberations that well.

Does feel a bit squishier because no sheltron for blinding, but other than that healers have no problem keeping me up. Other thing is you can't solo soak double prey, but that is such a niche strategy and barely saves any healing. I do hate living dead, but aside from that DRK has more than enough defensive ability.

Unless something changes with PLD soon I will be staying drk for savage, esp given the amount of magic busters.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Unless something changes with PLD soon I will be staying drk for savage, esp given the amount of magic busters.

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From previous exp. SE hears us and I believe heavily relies on this forum for the state of the game.
SMN cries were heard forever 2.0 as they failed miserably behind to BLM.
Fast forward and you now have SMNs parsing 1100+ and even 2K in AS2.

Hopefully it doesn't take a whole expansion for them to at least take shield swipe off GCD thats a 210 pot attack that will help while Tanking for single target theat/ dmg and can also help you fend off agro grabs while in Sword Oath....

I dont wanna jump ship on my PLD , my static wants me to go DRK but I'm not giving up on it.

Its crazy that I've only leveled a DRK to 45 and can feel the amount of damage I could actually do endgame. Based off the pot of attacks , the moves I'll be able to weave in. Its absurd that repraisal comes off GCD but not shield swipe , I feel it should be able to and at a faster rate as well.

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

From previous exp. SE hears us and I believe heavily relies on this forum for the state of the game.
SMN cries were heard forever 2.0 as they failed miserably behind to BLM.

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Just pointing out that SMN cries only came out during 2.4~2.5 as the ilv130 gear was DECKED OUT with Spell Speed that did NOTHING to SMN DPS except hurt its MP more. In SCoB and FCoB SMN was the superior caster choice over BLM for single target DPS. Except for T8 because of MP issues in a standstill fight.

SE did hear the SMN cries and fixed their MP costs in 2.5. Fixed Spell Speed scaling for them in 3.0. And removed the AoE cap on their AoE damage.

SE didn't take a whole expansion to "fix" SMN. SE fixed SMN gradually over the patches. Same way they did in 2.1 with DRG and MNK when they were inferior to BRD (in 2.0 where DRG, 2 BRDs + caster was the preferred setup). Same way when they gradually fixed DRG against MNK as it was dominant in terms of DPS and utility.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Unless something changes with PLD soon I will be staying drk for savage, esp given the amount of magic busters.

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I'm already leveling one up. We'll see what 3.1 brings, but PLD is miles behind everyone else, right now. When your list of advantages boils down to Sentinel and being able to cheese certain mechanics with Hallowed Ground, something ain't right. The class has got a bunch of dead/niche skills that still have yet to be looked at or altered (Cover, Shield Bash, Shield Swipe), does lower damage than both WAR and DRK, has the worst AoE capabilities of any class in the game, runs out of TP easily on protracted fights, has only a single marginally useful debuff, and so on, and so on...

Really, I want Paladin to be a good class. I like the Paladin archetype and tend to play it in almost every single RPG where I can, but it's hard to justify it here. Even in normal, non-raid dungeon runs, I simply do not have a good time playing Paladin. My utility skills are largely useless or superfluous, I have horrendous AoE capabilities, and my rotation requires no nuance or thought. I understand that they want to keep Paladin as the "simple tank," but there's a distinction between "simple" and "dull" that SE has yet to make.

Oh really? I find PLD relaxing. I am not going to go into the whole "easy to play, hard to play, boring, etc" debate. But I enjoy playing my PLD.

I enjoy the ease of AoE threat without managing a resource (even if I don't do damage). I enjoy the safety of the cooldowns and having block.

I like PLD for dungeons and pug alex because I don't really have to worry. i don't have to rely on a good healer, I'm pretty self sufficient, runs are a bit slower but I am a laid back kind of person.

Its only in raids with the FC that I feel PLD doesn't bring much, because when you have competent healers and group coordination PLD brings nothing to the table.

I really miss the look of PLD though...PLD swords and shield are so very elegant. DRK feels like a brute with spikes. WAR is a furry barbarian.