Crafting is dead

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Originally Posted by Sakasa

But no matter how they change it someone always gets stepped on. If you make a subpar weapon people will make it but no one will use it unless they are catching up. If you make a craftable on par people will find some way to purchase it to bypass high level content. If it is a craftable piece that requires a drop to be on par it belittles raiders achievement in some fashion. A token of some fashion that can only be recieved via someone else timevested in the raid might be the least damaging change that won't anger most people. I wonder how many times the craft dev unit got their legs cut out from under them for balance\community reasons.

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But if you're not going to make the items super relevant, don't make crafting and materia obnoxiously tedious and RNG based.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

But if you're not going to make the items super relevant, don't make crafting and materia obnoxiously tedious and RNG based.

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Hell, just make them neat glamors with maybe a decent level (I.e ilvl150 so you can take it into the final instances).

For instance, do two lancer sets for armorers.

One requires the red script crap and a bit of an investment.

The other is untradable with relatively simple mats that an armorer should be easily made with level 60 gathers and not locked behind stupid gates or items from 5 other crafting professions.

You reward those who put the time and effort into the class to make gear for themselves, while still allowing those who wish to just make Gil to also have a route to do so, which a mechanism in place to make sure the goods are worthwhile for the time investment.

Yep. Tons of work and agonizing RNG for trivial payoff. RIP crafting.

I've never been a huge fan of omnicrafting, so at the moment I have 2 60 crafts. I hop on today and check my red scrip turn-ins and some quick math showed I'd need about 3.5 million gil's worth of materials to cap. I'm sure some days will be cheaper than others, but if that's in any way a benchmark, there's no reasonable way to casually craft and advance anymore, as you'd need to craft pretty hardcore to keep producing that kind of money consistently every week. If you gather instead, you're trading time for money, and at that point, you'd probably have more steady income just from selling the mats to other serious omnicrafters.

But I hate gathering. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I've never been a huge fan of omnicrafting, so at the moment I have 2 60 crafts. I hop on today and check my red scrip turn-ins and some quick math showed I'd need about 3.5 million gil's worth of materials to cap. I'm sure some days will be cheaper than others, but if that's in any way a benchmark, there's no reasonable way to casually craft and advance anymore, as you'd need to craft pretty hardcore to keep producing that kind of money consistently every week. If you gather instead, you're trading time for money, and at that point, you'd probably have more steady income just from selling the mats to other serious omnicrafters.

But I hate gathering. *sigh*

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This.

It seems as though only the richest will progress. The midcore crafter with 20-30 million, not to mention crafter's with less, have hit a brick wall. Wtf?

Look at the bright side - the rich crafters with the millions it takes to procure the materials they need for their AF are destroying their own personal fortunes forever. There's nothing to craft with the shiny AF, and, according to SE, that's by design this time around.

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Originally Posted by BushWookie

This.

It seems as though only the richest will progress. The midcore crafter with 20-30 million, not to mention crafter's with less, have hit a brick wall. Wtf?

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Right. I went into Heavensward with about 20M that I put aside, knowing I would want a decent nest with which to get my ALC, WVR, and LTW to 60 and geared. I've spent about that much getting WVR and ALC to 60 with a full set of gear (though not melded--I assumed it would be wise to wait until we knew the requirements for 2-stars). LTW is currently receiving XP solely from GC turnins to mitigate costs. Even the money I spent getting these two claseses to 60 hasn't been made back yet using anything I can produce with them at 60.

I'm making the largest majority of my money on AF Augmentations, which are reasonably priced to make and sell for a respectable premium. I've done nothing but lose money and time trying to profit on level 60 crafting. I would have been better off not leveling either class, and that's sad, because crafting has always been my preferred way to kill time once my DoW/DoM leveling is done.

This new system only adds to the investment necessary to "kit out" a given class, and so far as I can tell, the market for the items it will allow you to make (both the crafted DoH/DoL sets and the DoW/DoM stuff) is going to be incredibly small because prices are going to have to be astronomical to recoup the investments of time and money necessary to make them.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

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You spent 20m to level 3 classes to 60 and gear them? >.>

I spent 5m and maxxed all gatherers/crafters and made the amount already back by selling random stuff (and got all master III books 2 weeks in 3.0 just with CUL)

But yeh, the prices for materials that are only needed to craft more crafters equip are... well only one word describes it well: ridiculous at this point

*sigh*

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Right. I went into Heavensward with about 20M that I put aside, knowing I would want a decent nest with which to get my ALC, WVR, and LTW to 60 and geared. I've spent about that much getting WVR and ALC to 60 with a full set of gear (though not melded--I assumed it would be wise to wait until we knew the requirements for 2-stars). LTW is currently receiving XP solely from GC turnins to mitigate costs. Even the money I spent getting these two claseses to 60 hasn't been made back yet using anything I can produce with them at 60.

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I have spent hardly any money levelling my crafters. But that's the advantage you get when levelling everything at the same time, i guess. I spent 8 millions on desynth, though, which I didn't really get back (only sold a few HQ mats and kept the rest, too lazy).

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Originally Posted by Seyb

I have spent hardly any money levelling my crafters. But that's the advantage you get when levelling everything at the same time, i guess. I spent 8 millions on desynth, though, which I didn't really get back (only sold a few HQ mats and kept the rest, too lazy).

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This, I spent way more on desynth. I got it back when felts were hard to get though :)

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Originally Posted by Magistrella

You spent 20m to level 3 classes to 60 and gear them? >.>

I spent 5m and maxxed all gatherers/crafters and made the amount already back by selling random stuff (and got all master III books 2 weeks in 3.0 just with CUL)

But yeh, the prices for materials that are only needed to craft more crafters equip are... well only one word describes it well: ridiculous at this point

*sigh*

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I spent 60 million from 50-60 and managed to hold Server First and Server's only Grandmaster for 4 days running. I made it back almost 4 times over due to my investment.

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Originally Posted by Magistrella

You spent 20m to level 3 classes to 60 and gear them? >.>

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20M for 2, actually. It was about 10M to get ALC to 60, though that includes getting enough scrips to get the Adept's set, and I was doing a lot of leve burning early on when materials were still rather expensive (and ALC unfortunately doesn't have many cheap turn-in options). WVR's leveling portion was cheaper (perhaps 5M), and then it was around 5M to get the gear at 60 that I couldn't make myself.

My assumption with ALC was that the 10M would easily be made back providing potions for raids once Alexander was released. I didn't know at the time that the potions were dropping from treasure chests, though. I was livid when I got the Master book, looked at the prices and saw they were selling for about 1/4 the value of the materials.

Cooking is the way to go, with savage progression you can sell food pretty easily on the market. I plan on spending scrips to get the main hand cooking/gathering tools and using profits to afford the off hands if they ever become available which will in turn make those three things easier to do.

Holy crap. I have 6 of 8 at 60 and I *might* have spent 750k gil. And that includes buying NQ junk off npc vendors to get the last half of 59 to 60 for 2 of them by leves.

That is just insane money.

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Originally Posted by Raves

Holy crap. I have 6 of 8 at 60 and I *might* have spent 750k gil. And that includes buying NQ junk off npc vendors to get the last half of 59 to 60 for 2 of them by leves.

That is just insane money.

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Server economies can be pretty wildly different. From what I understand, Diabolos is within the top 5 richest servers (and I believe we're one of the most dedicated crafting servers, too). Granted, since ALC was my first craft, that increased my necessary investment by quite a bit, since those stupid books always need 4 or 5 mats from other crafts. That got to be rather pricey for scrip turnins to unlock the Master III book.

I think I'm just going to sit out of crafting for this patch until they fix things.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Especially since it is not only hypocritical to take that stance but also ignores the fact you could become rich yourself selling to them and then buying any you cannot craft yourself with that gil.

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Well said. And this is excatly what im planning to do with both crafting and gathering, im not planning to go top-tier crafter myself as i already know those that will go for it so i just ask them to craft whatever i might need in future. If anything i love how hard it is to get materials atm as it means prices will be dirty high for long time and i like the sound of that €_€

Its more than the prices though. Its the fact that the prices do not justify the end goal. Why spend millions of gil to get gear that will allow you to craft items that are simply good for glamour, but in addition are locked behind another gate. If these items were viable in the market we would probably complain about the grind but be more accepting. The end is not justified by the work required.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

They wont be 10mil each when you need in effect 30 (300 scripts) to make some items.

Nobody is going to be paying 300mil for the mats to attempt to make 1 robe HQ lol.

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

You'd be surprised. The massive megacrafting FC conglomerates will drop that kind of cash likes it's nothing if it allows them to jump ahead of everyone else. They will either be 10mil each or no one will dare sell them in the first place.

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Well I have around 2300mil and I think the prices your talking about are insane. lol

I main BLM and I'd not spend anything close to that for temp upgarde.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Well said. And this is excatly what im planning to do with both crafting and gathering, im not planning to go top-tier crafter myself as i already know those that will go for it so i just ask them to craft whatever i might need in future. If anything i love how hard it is to get materials atm as it means prices will be dirty high for long time and i like the sound of that €_€

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You wont once youve actually gone through the full effort required just to make one item.

You cant just ask people to craft items for you anymore, because their weekly materials are limited. Currently in my mind making someone a crafters i170 is the same as making them a thavnarian dress, for free.

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Originally Posted by DarthBuzzer

I spent 60 million from 50-60 and managed to hold Server First and Server's only Grandmaster for 4 days running. I made it back almost 4 times over due to my investment.

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Selling exclusively to crafters and gathers, who are going to turn around and sell to crafters and gatherers as well, who are going to turn around and sell to no one. The tracks end there in a chasm. That's where the train derails, and crafting dies in a smoking abyss.

TLDR: When people have their AFs, the endgame crafting market - the very idea of which is a mirage - will vanish like the smoke it is. There is nothing to craft with those AFs.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

You wont once youve actually gone through the full effort required just to make one item.

You cant just ask people to craft items for you anymore, because their weekly materials are limited. Currently in my mind making someone a crafters i170 is the same as making them a thavnarian dress, for free.

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Lol more like 50 dresses. Because at least you can buy dragon maps for far cheaper than anything needed for an i170. And can be gotten daily with no RNG needed at all.

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Originally Posted by Hanmerreborn

Lol more like 50 dresses. Because at least you can buy dragon maps for far cheaper than anything needed for an i170. And can be gotten daily with no RNG needed at all.

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Let's be honest, you are hurting yourselves unnecessarily. I understand the sentiment to become BiS, but you don't need it right now. Once it becomes a necessity, mats should be more accessible. As is now, you can get one craft to the minimum crafts and control for 2 stars by spending five weeks worth of scrips without doing any overmelds on the other gear! You won't spend a lot of money for it either, if you're an omnicrafter (what most of you claim).

Quoted from the other thread:

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Every 5 weeks I will buy a mainhand tool and a body armour for one of my crafters. This will get me to the minimum requirements for those 2 star crafts without any overmelds (except CP).
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/R1A4

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Originally Posted by Seyb

Let's be honest, you are hurting yourselves unnecessarily. I understand the sentiment to become BiS, but you don't need it right now. Once it becomes a necessity, mats should be more accessible. As is now, you can get one craft to the minimum crafts and control for 2 stars by spending five weeks worth of scrips without doing any overmelds on the other gear! You won't spend a lot of money for it either, if you're an omnicrafter (what most of you claim).

Quoted from the other thread:

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Hey guys, you see this? You only have to spend 5 weeks to get a tool for your craft. So it's all good. Just close the thread down everyone.

Let's lock Expert dungeon finder behind esoteric tokens (50 per queue) with their current payouts and limits, and if you don't get a queue pop within 3 minutes or go into combat during that time you lose the tokens immediately.


And if you get a bad group, too bad, no mats for you.

And you have to do the dungeon successfully 10 times with 3 different classes to get a single piece of gear.

2.0 gear had plenty of options to make gear without requiring ANY other class to craft. Leveling other crafters made it EASIER through cross-classing, but was no where near a requirement.

3.0 you can't even make a gear without needing at least one other profession maxed out, when the biggest draw (at least for me) was all this talk of specialization and not needing to be an omnicrafter anymore. It's the biggest bait and switch I've ever seen.

Now you can't even make stuff without needing to get red scripts on your gatherer by spending a ton of gil to meld all his stuff to hit the 650 cap to then gather to then spend those red scripts on a chance of success to get a couple mats that isn't enough to make a single item that also requires crafting red scripts which requires you to basically piss money away through the collectible system to get in the first place to make a single item after 5 weeks.

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Originally Posted by Hanmerreborn

Hey guys, you see this? You only have to spend 5 weeks to get a tool for your craft. So it's all good. Just close the thread down everyone.

Now you can't even make stuff without needing to get red scripts on your gatherer by spending a ton of gil to meld all his stuff to hit the 650 cap to then gather to then spend those red scripts on a chance of success to get a couple mats that isn't enough to make a single item that also requires crafting red scripts which requires you to basically piss money away through the collectible system to get in the first place to make a single item after 5 weeks.

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1. It's 3 weeks for a tool. How could you miss that?
2. Your comparison makes no sense.
3. You're too hung up on red scrips. Take your time off and relax.

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Originally Posted by Seyb

1. It's 3 weeks for a tool. How could you miss that?

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The very post you quoted said 5 weeks, which is what they were responding to.

Wonder how are japanese DoH/DoL reacting to this.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

The very post you quoted said 5 weeks, which is what they were responding to.

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The post he quoted specifically states:

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Every 5 weeks I will buy a mainhand tool and a body armour for one of my crafters.

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As the mainhand tool needs 3 weeks worth of scrips, and the chestpiece needs 2 weeks worth of scrips.

I think spending 5 Weeks to get a tool and a body piece that is already not the BiS is gonna hurt you in the long run, because what happens in 6 Months when you don't have the craft and control to do the 3 star? You can't meld anything to raise the caps so you are gonna need to start over from square one.

In the 3.0 Chimerical set you can already meet the crafting caps to craft the new 2 Star gear so there is no reason to spend red scrips on getting a Non Bis Tool and a Non Bis Body piece.

Well, I admit this just seems impossible. I love crafting, I was a omnicrafter back in 2.x, it was a nice challenge and you could almost always see the rewards for your efforts. I could buy a house, minions, everything I wanted, I saved some 60mils (ehich is not much, I know) gil to be ready for HW...but this is just endless grinding. I'm taking a step back. Good luck fellow crafters.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Furthermore, combat classes who helped stabilize supplies will no longer be able to do so. DoW/M used excess tomes to purchase and sell mats, which provided them with a source of income and crafters with a steady supply. Win-win for everyone. Now DoW/M have to find somewhere else to dump seals and crafters have to work with scarce supplies. Brilliant.

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This is a point that I haven't seen touched on anywhere else and yet it's one of the biggest problems. Even supplying end-game crafting/gathering right now takes high-level crafting/gathering, all the gil's just going to concentrate even further with people who already had all the gil.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

I think spending 5 Weeks to get a tool and a body piece that is already not the BiS is gonna hurt you in the long run, because what happens in 6 Months when you don't have the craft and control to do the 3 star? You can't meld anything to raise the caps so you are gonna need to start over from square one.

In the 3.0 Chimerical set you can already meet the crafting caps to craft the new 2 Star gear so there is no reason to spend red scrips on getting a Non Bis Tool and a Non Bis Body piece.

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I showed you an alternative to the insane amounts of materia that you will blow up in the process otherwise.
Also, to make the ilvl170 mainhand and body 'significantly' better than the 180 ones, you have to put in a lot of materia (not just IV, also V), again many will blow up. Do this 16 times. Not worth it in my opinion.

The body can "reasonably" be melded to be equal to or better than the 180.
The MH however, have fun blowing up your V's.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

Wonder how are japanese DoH/DoL reacting to this.

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They hate it just like anyone with a brain (which thankfully is the vast majority)

Honestly, the biggest issue I'm having is that the DoW/DoM gear is locked behind red scrips and the fact that you need both a Miner and Botanist at Lv60 to get red scrip items, along with that you have to screw your gatherer over if you wanna craft on your crafter.

Seems counterintuitive.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Well THAT bytes ...

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It mega bytes! :P If it doesn't Kil o byte off crafting ^^

Look at it this way, it's a system that is probably giving Gil sellers wet dreams :S

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Originally Posted by DarthBuzzer

They hate it just like anyone with a brain (which thankfully is the vast majority)

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Well, that should mean more chance of it being revisited and revised.

Has anyone checked the change with guildleves mentioned in the patch notes?

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Guildleves
[3.0] New crafting materials have been added as rewards for tradecraft temple leves.

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I don't have game access, so I can't check myself. This isn't an alternative way of getting the 2 star mats, right?

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Originally Posted by Seyb

Has anyone checked the change with guildleves mentioned in the patch notes?


I don't have game access, so I can't check myself. This isn't an alternative way of getting the 2 star mats, right?

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No, this is mats used for lvl 58+ recipes. Like hallowed lumbers, chimera manes, adamantite ore, etc.

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Originally Posted by Rath

No, this is mats used for lvl 58+ recipes. Like hallowed lumbers, chimera manes, adamantite ore, etc.

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Ah, good to know, thanks. Hoped they made it the same as with the lucis items.

Yeah, they ruined it big time. The grind is so ridiculously unapproachable and pointless it boggles my mind. What were they thinking? I've heard people are unsubbing who were big into crafting with their friends. I still enjoy the story and hardcore raiding so I'll be sticking around, hoping for a rework but I will NOT be touching the crafting with a 10 foot pole.