Who let the tanks out?!
I am a bad tank coz i use vit(tank) gear!
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07-20-2015, 03:14 PMGreven
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07-20-2015, 03:29 PMWhiteroomHow many times have you been in a raid that failed at 2-3%, How many times has an enrage just been missed. This is where it comes into play. Its not game breaking, but it does make a difference. I'm not the type who cares too much if I get a Vit or Str tank, as long as they hold hate. But denying that an optimized tank makes a difference is just foolishness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evaddaragon
Just like how a healer doesn't have to do damage, but when they do, the run is noticeably easier. The game revolves around killing the boss, and every moment in there is a moment things can go sideways. With this set up, maximizing dps while maintaining a stable group will always be best. -
07-20-2015, 03:30 PMAdire
Am I a bad healer for using cleric stance and DPSing but still keeping everyone alive?
Also I do use STR accessories when tanking if I feel comfortable doing so :3 -
07-20-2015, 03:33 PMamihavingfunyet
It's not only about making the fight shorter, it's also about skipping mechanics. Skipping tank busters and raid wide damage is making life a lot easier for your healers.
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07-20-2015, 03:33 PMTagihi
There is nothing wrong have vit build like the second post "If you can -comfortably- switch to strength gear"
Haveing 22k health and it' s alot but it's not wrong so your not a bad tank.
But a full vit tank has harder time to hold aggro then a str build tank.!
But bosses and adds ingame won't do less dmg beacuse i have more vit, Boss do same dmg even if ur 15k health. -
07-20-2015, 04:00 PMLemuriaI wish this myth would die a death already. While people might gain more aggro using strength accessories, it's an outright lie to assume that non-strength tanks will have any difficulties doing the same. The way this is worded makes it sound like vit tanks are doing twice the effort to maintain aggro, when it simply isn't the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tagihi
Paladin, for example, gains a lot of its aggro through the use of Flash. They lack a strong enmity AoE, and it's unrealistic to try and Halone combo every single target in a group. Flash is a fixed enmity skill, which means it won't matter if you're crazy on the strength or not. It will still earn the same enmity regardless.
Both Warrior and Dark Knight are slightly more reliant on strength, but only slightly. The aggro modifiers provided by Defiance and Grit on their AoE ultimately make up for any shortfalls in damage, so it's unlikely that anyone's targets will get bored of them unless they aren't paying attention.
It's easy for players to forget that for every 100 damage strike you're doing, the enmity boosts make it the equivalent of 200. Shield Oath, Grit and Defiance takes your damage, doubles it and then uses that to calculate enmity. Our enmity combo skills multiply that even further, with Halone/Butcher's being the staggering enmity equivalent of a 2,600 potency attack.
So no, vitality tanks don't have a harder time keeping aggro. It'll be about the same regardless. As long as your main body gear and weapon is kept up to date, you shouldn't have any issues holding aggro with peers of a similar setup. Only when significantly undergeared will you notice any deficiency in holding aggro, or if the tank isn't using their skills properly.
Can we let this debate die now and just let people play the way they want to? -
07-20-2015, 04:03 PMZumi
You get so far ahead on aggro no matter if you using str or vit accessories because the enmity multiplier on the enmity combo is so high. Basically is a myth that you have a hard time keeping hate with vit accessories.
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07-20-2015, 04:09 PMamihavingfunyetThis is actually wrong. Flash generates more enmity with higher STR. Here's a comparision:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
https://d.maxfile.ro/fnqwzivlxv.png
Top is STR spec, bottom VIT spec. Each use 1 Flash vs. 1 Energy Drain. -
07-20-2015, 04:13 PMCyrus-WallaceI wouldn't be that sure about that. When I use full vit , I get around 3000 points of emnity. With STR I get around 4000 points of emnity. That's an extra 30%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
Thanks! That proves my point. Both tanks wearing STR accesories will change the results of the combat. Even thought I would have prefered to see a real fight testing, to see other paramenters. However, it's also very important to see how much damage you take in comparisson. Because if the healer can't DPS because of your DPS, then you're actually losing DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrial
Exactly. Pretty sure it's based on "attack power", that's why Fight or Flight doesn't affect it. Since STR increases that attribute, you increase the emnity you generate with Flash as a consequence.Quote:
Originally Posted by amihavingfunyet
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07-20-2015, 04:19 PMKryloFlash is a 600 potency magic attack scaled off attack power with its damage set to zero and the blind special effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
That is to say: Strength, determination, weapon damage, berserk, and other attack power increasers all increase how much enmity flash creates.
Though, you are right that as long as you don't have a much weaker weapon than the DPS in your group you shouldn't have a problem holding aggro. -
07-20-2015, 04:23 PMKotemon
Ok. +Str debate on tanks, take .. something, I lost count long ago. Other than the increase to physical combat damage. +Str used to increase the amount of damage blocked and parried as well and +Dex would influence the parry and block rate (lesser effect). Before the block strength (sometimes parry), added more to +Str tanks over going all +Vit due to +damage mitigation. Now according to the current text, Dex and Str only influence their respective physical range and melee damage formulas. With that said the overall need for either stat is removed for +Dex and situational for +Str. The situation is based on the mobs, dps make up of your party/group, and how defined your abs are while wearing your armor.
Between Warrior and Paladin, there are abilities that get more out of +str or +vit respectively. It's also play style and whether or not you will allow your healer to nuke with the two black mages. The end issue is that neither all +Str or +Vit will help people tank better if they are not good at holding hate or knowing when to move out of the glowing spots on the floor. Spamming flash and overpower wont make up for the DPS pulling hate off or those who don't know how to read the enmity bar either. Its a learning curve to hold one target, then two , then three, etc. Know skill limits and develop a play style (+str or +vit). Most folks on DF will always have an issue with anyone that don't fit their play style or are still on a learning curve. I'd rather a tank that can hold hate, and mitigate incoming damage. Than the tank who runs in and pulls hate across the zone to the boss, and chews everyone out for not doing their job because they (tank) died or pulled hate off them (tank).
On a side note all the +Str will not increase enmity from Flash or enmity combos. Only the damage delt, and that is more or less a minor increase to normal melee damage enmity that's being added on a stack. The overall amount as I under stood it was to slow down enmity gain generated from faster and stronger dps and cures. Tanks generating more enmity than everyone else is good. That's what they do. Generating and maintaining enmity on multiple targets is better. Tanks are not #1 in DPS. Otherwise by concept it would be impossible for Tanks currently to hold enmity off DPS if not for their Enmity generation abilities. Dps needs to dps, Tank dps only slows down DPS and cure enmity generation while stacking up on enmity combos. The only thing that will make it easier to hold hate off everyone else is making sure your main weapon is on par or better than everyone else's.
Aside from the +Str vs +Vit tanks. Has anyone found out how skill speed affects dot from Maim, CoS, and Goring blade? Would any tank Dot contribute to keeping hate, or slowing hate generation form others on mobs aside from the Dps aspect from skill speed? -
07-20-2015, 04:33 PMAeyisYou know what tanking is like for WARs. They ARE the entire raid. The other 7 are there to Esuna/heal them. And goad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evaddaragon
Naturally since this means they are 100% of the dps, if their dps goes up by 30% the raid dps goes up by that much. -
07-20-2015, 04:38 PMDaraliiImplying they need goad. I've at least heard of tests where warriors could comfortably sustain their TP for 15+ minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeyis
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07-20-2015, 04:47 PMAeyisGoad is much like str accessories and bonus points. While you dont need either at all, they do increase your dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
Quote:
MOAR DPS
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07-20-2015, 05:03 PMamihavingfunyet
Using Fell Cleave and Equilibrium a WAR shouldn't ever need Goad.
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07-20-2015, 05:41 PMXensai
STR Tanking requires thought and communication with healers it also requires you to have a brain.
It DOES not make you a bad tank using all VIT it just means youre less optimized but at the end of the day if youre clearing content who gives a stuff what people say -
07-20-2015, 07:15 PMWalielI believe DoT damage increase from Spell/Skill Speed is close to, if not the same, as the increase from DET. There was data somewhere in the DPS forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotemon
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07-20-2015, 08:37 PMl---------------l
I don't know what's all this about STR tanks in forum from all sudden, but... My DRK.... is already 60 and... Well, I USE IT WITH STR ACCESORIES and 30 STR... Because? Because I can, and because I do more DEEPS than mot of the DEEPS I find in duty finder, and healer can withstand it perfectly. And how do I know healer can withstand it perfectly?
Because I'm also a 60 WHM and in roulette expert I'm so bored that I can heal while DPS... If the healer of my party is just going to heal and not help dpsing, then it's my duty to plug in the STR gear and DPS myself... If the healer wants to DEEPs, well, okay then, I don't mind going tank gear and slack a bit....
In hard content? Well, I just did Alexander with my raids and.....I know it's not savage, but, when I'm as healer I have to heal the tanks with their DPS stances, and STR gear, I have to heal them WHILE DPSING.. come guys, it's not that hard, really. Perhaps in Alexander Savage tanks will need that 2k extra vit, and we healers just to heal, but, not at the moment.
(The nice feeling of doing Alexander Floor 3 and don't even let the living liquid to transform into a hand a second time... It's just like, it transforms to hand, then to whirlpool, then humanoid, then we push it and cascade stage starts... DPS are around 1000, tanks are around 700-850, healers around 400-500.... Damn beasts! )
PS: The 'casual content' and with that I mean, everything but savages, is made for tanks and healers so we just need to maintain the minimum for survive and the rest make our BEST DPS for making it faster and help party. A healer doesn't need to spam cure all time like a headless chicken, a tank doesn't need to have 2k more HP but rather 100-150+ DPS
PS2: As a DRK with STR spec, you RARELY need to use aggro combo, you can maintain aggro just using your MP combos, and, even, if DPS sucks, using your MP combo without grit. I can't remember last time I needed to use aggro combo aside of the starter when going MT.... The more STR, the more self-heals, the more aggro, the more aggro the more MP you can get, the more damage the more MP bloodblade gives you... -
07-20-2015, 10:00 PMEvaddaragonIronically, I think I've seen 1% more often than 2 and 3 % combined. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom
I've always been of the opinion that if we miss an enrage, it was mainly the DPS' fault, because one or many of them spent a little too much time lying on the floor.
I'm not denying it helps, but it's when I hear people saying "tanks are bad if they don't use STR" and then see the numbers I'm being provided, I'm like, "well, that's a bit exagerated". -
07-21-2015, 05:02 AMCyrus-WallaceOur posts got deleted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrial
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07-21-2015, 04:10 PMXensai
everyone should jut go to the other thread theres action there