Law Healer gear needs Accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Raminax

- The average healer being a self-important dweeb. Yoshi says that being basic/average is good enough for clearing the hardest content, so stop taking offense to being called mediocre/not doing your very best, instead of good/excellent.
- The average healer being a self-important dweeb. There's more to good healers than just adding DPS to your repertoire. Not DPSing doesn't automatically make you bad.
- People being absolutely horrible at posting balanced arguments, i.e. "there's a time for DPS, and there are times to not DPS" and not "That Ladybug began casting Teraflare the moment I hovered over Cleric Stance, true story" or "Begin DPSing before I break into your house and replace all your actions on the bar with /grovel commands"

Pick one poison, I suppose. :p

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You can also add (which mimics your 2nd point):

-The elitest healer who believes if you aren't DPSing at all, you're automatically terrible at being a healer, regardless of any reason you may have to be healing constantly.

I guess to me, the argument is moot because the neither side is wrong, just people fail at writing any sort of balanced argument for it.

True, a healer will never need to DPS to clear content if the raid ilvl is appropriate
True, a healer who doesn't DPS but maintains raid health is not bad, but also not great either. They are average.
True, a healer who can provide DPS while maintaining raid health is performing better than a healer who is not adding additional DPS
True, in some cases all a healer can do is heal due to player mistakes degrading the situation into an "aw crap" situation

That pretty much sums up how the argument should be looked at >>; I dunno why this topic keeps rearing its ugly head. lol.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Just to re-iterate what was already mentioned in the thread about re-adjusting 2.0 content accuracy requirements, here's the translated quote from the live letter.

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Ah, well bugger me i never saw that, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

You're getting defensive for no reason when the quoted poster had a very good point. Yes many healers do like to dps but the fact is, SE has stated they don't design fights where healers need to dps. They don't design the game for healers to dps in group scenarios in general. So people are free to do it, but SE is not going to encourage it because their view of the classes is different.

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Yeah they never designed it so tanks are supposed to pull every goddamn enemy until the first boss but it gets done that way!

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Originally Posted by Gallus

However, he/she was quoting a poster who wished all healers accuracy dropped to 1 expecting that would eliminate the possibility for any of the 3 healers to DPS, when the only real thing that would probably do is automatically make the WHM not viable in 1st world clears. Just thought it was relevant enough to mention ^^

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I left out White Mage on purpose, as they're more likely to expect to do the majority of the healing of the healing pair as opposed to scholar, who is more likely the healer who helps off-DPS and aids in healing only when necessary. Main healer/support healer model, if I'd have to name it - Something not everyone seems to be aware of, mind you.

It doesn't mean that White Mages "are not viable in world first clears". It just shifts the healing burden a bit more towards the White Mage so the other healer can spend more time and resources into other things. Be it contributing to meet the DPS check or to handle mechanics. That is, if said White Mage can actually handle all the healing stress dumped on him/her without creating counter-productive results. Perma ballad from bard, for example.

What people seem to be forgetting is that Healers are in a much better spot to make any encounter more "forgiving".

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Your secondary objective would be to make the encounter as forgiving as possible, although opinions on this may vary. Making an encounter more forgiving involves handling mechanics or contributing with damage. For most encounters, especially when progressing, the dps checks is one of the main causes for failures. Assuming your primary objective is achieved till the dps check fails. By taking duties handling mechanics from other players would improve the overal damage output. Alternatively you could help contribute with some damage as a healer.

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And why are healers in a better spot to make encounters more "forgiving"?

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2.2 Main- and supportive healer model
Healing generally happens in tandem. But not all content requires two healers to be constantly healing as this will cause overhealing

http://www.find-demo.com/ff14/handbo...ing_output.png

Each encounter has a certain healing output requirement. When this is not met, your party will slowly die till the damage simply overwhelms the healing output. When this requirement is met, any output that exceeds the requirement would simply be overhealing. Overhealing isn't necessarily a bad thing, mind you. After all; overhealing doesn't kill anyone and in each encounter there will always be a bit of overhealing. For those strifing for greater efficiency, it's good practice to suppress the amount of overhealing to a minimum, allowing you or your healing partner to spend more time and resources into other activities mentioned as secondary objective.

With that in mind, you should be aware who's the main healer and who's the supportive healer of the pair. The main healer would take the greater bulk of healing for both tank- as well as group healing. The supportive healer will focus on other tasks while aiding when necessary.

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From a healing handbook I wrote in my FC's forum.

What people are forgetting is that in a typical raid environment with two healers the hybrid dps/healer role is actually the easier of the pair. The scholar role becomes easier since their main focus is then to push as much damage as possible from their end while their whm partner has the burden of carry healing the encounter, by patching up mistakes, and keeping everyone alive. This is very easy to do when the combined overheal is 60-70% since both healers are healing well above the damage threshhold. It is more difficult when the healing output of your partner is near nonexistent and you must make up for that by increasing your hps and be smarter about every cast being as efficient as possible.

Like it or not those healers raise the bar by entering party finder groups and showing people the benefits healer dps can bring to a raid. They start being sought after to the point healers who do not embrace that playstyle will be rejected from groups. That has been my experience and it seems to be a growing trend as the community evolves to learn the most efficient ways to approach difficult encounters with tight dps checks.

Those who dig in their heals about "healers job is not to dps" are fine if that is what their particular group wants. However, don't be surprised when you step outside your group and see the majority of players care about efficiency > principles.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

**big rant**

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I actually do dps whenever I can but your overreaction is exactly my point. And in many situations some other healers may not feel comfortable slacking on heals to dps, because more often than not you don't have sitautions where there's a phase the tank is taking no damage, you've got plenty of mana and can just spam the deeps. Those are select fights and outside of that, there are healers who may not yet feel up to it, especially in Duty Finder when the skills of your group are often questionable. I don't think having a hostile attitude towards our fellow healers is really the way to encourage them to try harder. Putting people down has never gotten people to be better. All it does it make them feel bad and less likely to even want to try.

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Originally Posted by keyburz

HAHA! NO! Thats not what the point of this thread is even about. Did you even read the title? We're talking about adding accuracy to healer equipment to hit accuracy checks. We are not talking about whether dpsing as a healer is good or bad. The only dungeons that have an accuracy issue for healers is in 8 man raid content. Four man dungeons are not relevant here.

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Maybe when it started but I have to agree with Dreamweaver that the discussion has clearly diverted into healer dps in general and whether it's required or not. I think he has a valid point in bringing 4 mans into this because the arguments are similar, and really nobody has mentioned accuracy for pages now.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

but if they did that it would have to end up replacing another stat... like critical... which needless to say would anger a lot of scholars...(adlo crit is amazing)

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Not. True. At. All.

Pre-3.0 healer gear had added acc which was separate from and did not replace secondaries example here and here

No. NO! This is a terrible idea.
I'm sure the accuracy soft cap is nerfed in favor of supplying those stat point in something else, which is a VERY good thing.
With the excessive Accuracy caps from before, we healers were gimped on the most important thing, healing power and/or MP depending on which stat the ACC cut. So that meant, less critical, less determination, and less speed, all for the very thing you should not be doing first and foremost! And before someone tries to hit me with "What about those DPS or die moments like the end of Odin", they are exceptions, and exceptions do NOT count. I know I don't want my healing power gimped for something as useless as accuracy the vast majority of the time.

Healing is number 1 on the list, DPS is number 2 and they don't need you're weak two cents about it.

And OMG I can't count the number of wipes we suffered cause our healers "think" they were doing us a favor by attacking over healing.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

With the excessive Accuracy caps from before, we healers were gimped on the most important thing, healing power and/or MP depending on which stat the ACC cut.

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This isn't true. 2.0 healer gear had Accuracy ON TOP of other secondary stats, not cutting from other stats. For example, my Zeta has Accuracy even though I didn't meld any accuracy materias.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

No. NO! This is a terrible idea.
I'm sure the accuracy soft cap is nerfed in favor of supplying those stat point in something else, which is a VERY good thing.
With the excessive Accuracy caps from before, we healers were gimped on the most important thing, healing power and/or MP depending on which stat the ACC cut. So that meant, less critical, less determination, and less speed, all for the very thing you should not be doing first and foremost! And before someone tries to hit me with "What about those DPS or die moments like the end of Odin", they are exceptions, and exceptions do NOT count. I know I don't want my healing power gimped for something as useless as accuracy the vast majority of the time.

Healing is number 1 on the list, DPS is number 2 and they don't need you're weak two cents about it.

And OMG I can't count the number of wipes we suffered cause our healers "think" they were doing us a favor by attacking over healing.

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You do realize that the OP was most likely discussing the fact that in 2.X, healing gear started getting minor smattering of accuracy that went ABOVE the normal secondary caps (think of it as a tertiary stat) and that they were wondering if we'd ever get this back?

Not, change this secondary to Accuracy instead.

And most people in this thread understand that healing is the primary role and DPSing as a healer is a secondary role that can be performed efficiently if the opportunity affords itself.

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Originally Posted by keyburz

HAHA! NO! Thats not what the point of this thread is even about. Did you even read the title? We're talking about adding accuracy to healer equipment to hit accuracy checks. We are not talking about whether dpsing as a healer is good or bad. The only dungeons that have an accuracy issue for healers is in 8 man raid content. Four man dungeons are not relevant here.

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I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you here that four man dungeons are irrelevant to the conversation. I missed the tanks in the first boss of Keeper of the Lake 3 times in a row the other day. These tanks dropped on the ground, just laying there, and my stupid Aero couldn't push them back. Accuracy is most definitely an issue here. I can't even dependably Holy spam anymore because of the number of misses I get.

You don't need it, because right now the only fight where you'll even notice constant misses is ravana.

I will be pretty peeved if esoteric gear has none though. Especially scholar gear.

Also-lol@people thinking getting accuracy would nerf our ability to get other stats. Did you not notice healer weapons and gear at level 50? It had free accuracy on it, 5 stats listed.

Eso SCH gear has zero acc - even upgraded..and hardly any crit:

From the rundown of Savant Gear and Fabled:

SS: 242
VIT: 413
PIE: 431
MIN: 623
CRI: 156
DET: 200

No ACC
Calculated with only one ring, though.

Meanwhile, lurking just above our Determination-filled chest, the White Mage robe is overflowing with Crit. None of the Esoterics stuff really impresses me for Scholar.

i have always been under the impression that magic attacks require a significantly less amount of accuracy then physical attacks. while leveling either CNJ/WHM, THM/BLM and ACN/SMN i have never once missed an attack. my BLM has 324 ACC, and has never once missed an attack through a level 50 dungeon. on the other hand, my WAR has 574 ACC and STILL rarely misses in a level 50 dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

Eso SCH gear has zero acc - even upgraded..and hardly any crit:

From the rundown of Savant Gear and Fabled:

SS: 242
VIT: 413
PIE: 431
MIN: 623
CRI: 156
DET: 200

No ACC
Calculated with only one ring, though.

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Wow that's horrible.

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

Eso SCH gear has zero acc - even upgraded..and hardly any crit:

From the rundown of Savant Gear and Fabled:

SS: 242
VIT: 413
PIE: 431
MIN: 623
CRI: 156
DET: 200

No ACC
Calculated with only one ring, though.

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TBH SCH doesn't rlly need accuracy... i think the only skills they use that can even miss are ruin ruin 2 and broil ... and broil can only be used in HW areas which are tuned with the lower accuracy of the gear in mind...
edit: almost forgot energy drain...(i rarely use it)

and Miasma and Aero. We do need ACC. E-drain missing is a big deal.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

TBH SCH doesn't rlly need accuracy... i think the only skills they use that can even miss are ruin ruin 2 and broil ... and broil can only be used in HW areas which are tuned with the lower accuracy of the gear in mind...
edit: almost forgot energy drain...(i rarely use it)

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Yes, we really do..also, YOU FORGOT energy drain? WHAT? You rarely use it? -.- Not only does it a shitload of damage it also gives back mp the same time..I take a guess and say you don't main SCH ;)
You really do NOT want to miss that drain.
And as DarkerOrange mentioned..all our dps skills need acc to hit..
In the new content you REALLY do want your SCH to help with dps.

My Parses in Savage A1 shows that currently healers have an average hit rate of around 93~95%.
This is without any accuracy melded accessories etc etc.

TBH if you're planning to progress through Savage this early in the raid cycle, as Kyomih said above, the healers NEED to DPS, there's no compromise, no such thing as telling your DPS to git gud, coz I'm pretty certain even if all four perform the theoretical highest DPS it is humanly possible, it's still not enough to beat the enrage if healers aren't DPSing.

I concur. Healer DPS feels pretty mandatory until either DPS and Tanks have enough eso gear and even after the fact until echo is added. Even still, healer DPS may be relied on to make smoother transitions through phases that aren't on healing crunch time.

At current, as explained a page before, missing energy drains suck, missing broil as well is a significant draw back when aiding DPS during DPS crunch phases as well. And let's be honest, these types of phases are becoming increasingly common now.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

My Parses in Savage A1 shows that currently healers have an average hit rate of around 93~95%.
This is without any accuracy melded accessories etc etc.

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My "best guess" for healers is that they'll need somewhere in the range of 480-490 Accuracy to eliminate misses completely.

For anyone curious about the other content, I've been testing with various melded Accessories (+24 Accuracy per). I don't have comprehensive enough data to say with complete accuracy (heh!), but general accuracy threshholds for Scholars on current content appear to be:

370~: Expert dungeons.
400~: A1-A4, Bismarck.
445~: Ravana Extreme.

With a single +24 Accuracy accessory, I stopped recording misses in Experts, and with two I stopped recording misses in A1-A4 and on Bismarck. Haven't done Ravana Extreme enough on my Scholar to figure out whether 440 is enough, but the Scholar on the extremely fast Lucrezia Ravana Ex kill had about 454 and wasn't reporting any misses (and I suspect it's slightly lower than that). Scholar may skew the figures a little considering that three of our attacks lack any kind of accuracy check, so there's less of an incidence rate for misses. It's all pretty rough, unfortunately. I'm glad I have the Accuracy melds, but it's a pain not knowing exactly what the caps are, and I wish they'd just state them flat out instead of requiring people to muck around with varying Accuracy until they can finally pinpoint when extra Accuracy becomes superfluous.

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Originally Posted by Blessedbythesun

I concur. Healer DPS feels pretty mandatory until either DPS and Tanks have enough eso gear and even after the fact until echo is added. Even still, healer DPS may be relied on to make smoother transitions through phases that aren't on healing crunch time.

At current, as explained a page before, missing energy drains suck, missing broil as well is a significant draw back when aiding DPS during DPS crunch phases as well. And let's be honest, these types of phases are becoming increasingly common now.

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I'll be frank: Accuracy needs to go. It's a relic of a bygone age where having weirdly obfuscated game knowledge was acceptable design, but there's absolutely no reason to have it in the game as it stands. Trying to figure out the hard cap is a nightmare of data analysis, and it's something a player will only ever know if they start browsing out-of-game forums/wikis. It provides no benefit once you're over the cap, leaving it mostly to fill a role as ilvl deflation.

If you absolutely have to have some kind of stat for raids that reduces damage output until you get to a cap (for gear checks or to reduce healer DPS), then just have a stat that increases the damage you deal to trial/raid opponents equivalent to the average damage increase of going from 95% to 100% Accuracy. Having to waste an extra GCD to get Miasma up 5% of the time doesn't add anything to the gameplay experience, save for frustration.

the other day i was in neverreap and i tried casting aero 3 on the final boss and it missed twice. earlier today i was in keeper of the lake and i tried casting aero 1 on one of the small canisters to shoot it away from the group and it missed.

missing when you're trying to dps is a waste of time and mp. so much could go wrong in that small window of time when you don't get something productive done.

i 100% agree that new endgame gear for healers needs accuracy. it just sucks because we shouldn't have to equip gear that isn't really intended for healers. we shouldn't have to sacrifice mind for accuracy. but because of these accuracy requirements we're gonna likely need to put on tank accessories for the extra bit of accuracy. it's annoying but oh well.

healer dps may not be absolutely required to beat something but it definitely helps. i mean, my dps may not be much but it's a huge help when doing stuff like destroying fire balls during ser charibert in the vault or killing butterflies during ravana. and of course it also helps out just in general to contribute to dps while i don't have to heal anybody. and that's why accuracy is so important.

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Originally Posted by Hunky

healer dps may not be absolutely required to beat something but it definitely helps. i mean, my dps may not be much but it's a huge help when doing stuff like destroying fire balls during ser charibert in the vault or killing butterflies during ravana. and of course it also helps out just in general to contribute to dps while i don't have to heal anybody. and that's why accuracy is so important.

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I just want to say how satisfying it is to fully dot up another target, then bane it onto a moon gana right as it comes down ^_^

Ok I have a question for you WHM's out there. I have been getting a number of WHM's in DF Alex groups lately who just sit back and let me main heal until their help is really needed. So they just go dps until then. If that's the route we're going to take, wouldn't it make more sense for the roles to be reversed? The WHM has bigger heals, more of them, better healing CDs, and dps skills with accuracy problems. I have no such accuracy issues, lower heals, not as good healing CDs, etc. Wouldn't it make more sense to let the AST pump out the dps and throw cards, supporting with heals where necessary? Where does this idea come from that the WHM dpsing with the AST main healing makes any sense?

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Originally Posted by keyburz

Hey wouldnt you know it? SE decided to make raid wide damage hurt. Good thing I managed to use Fey Covenant, sacred soil, and Virus, and spent time casting physick getting everyone to full instead of throwing dots before the boss went invulnerable, otherwise those 3 dps left with under 100 health due to (raise sickness/ low hp base/ couple pieces of gear not highest) would have bitten the dust. And even if after all that and the party is left with 20% hp on the lowest person, better safe then sorry.You had no way of knowing what damage was incoming. If I knew beforehand it would do 9205 damage and the dps had 9206/10205 hp, then I could have just ignored healing him. But I cant predict the future, so yeah. Did my job

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Yeah because timed attacks in a scripted fight are hard to predict amiright. Of course you wont be doing dps when you need to heal, you just need to know when to dps.

Still missing enemies on heavensward content! Need..... accuracy.....

As a WHM I feel like the BiS is accuracy, I think I would feel the same way playing with the other two healers, must I really be forced into pricey crafted accessories so I can get it?

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

Where does this idea come from that the WHM dpsing with the AST main healing makes any sense?

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Um you? nobody even compared WHM vs AST dpsing/healing, this whole topic was about healer gear needing accuracy not specific healer jobs.


STILL WANT ACCURACY BTW! YES WITH CAPS!