Thoughts from a 60 AST & 60 WHM

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

No, I literally listed who to use it on. Because it's always useful on those people. Every card is always useful whether it's to use or to RR it.

You seem to have trouble mitigating RNG. I was trying to help with that. You see "RNG, don't think these buffs are useful, therefore buffs suck" and say AST sucks, instead of trying to see how a card can always be useful.

I can't make it any clearer for you than what I said before, at this point we're just yelling "No I'm right!" back and forth.

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It's not a question whether or not it's useful, it's a question of whether or not it's worth dealing with lower healing throughput and trashy cooldowns for something as marginal as a slight TP reduction that becomes a complete non-point since there's only a handful of fights where TP management becomes a big issue; or a damage reduction that you can't summon when needed in a game that's all about premeditated damage. It is illusion of strategy if survivability increase is 0.01%.

Either make the cards so good and so controllable they actually make a difference (as opposed to "huh, that's cool" format they have now) or revamp the baseline healing ability to the point it doesn't become a burden.

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Originally Posted by Rewind

The cards give the illusion of strategy. In theory I know what card I want to draw and when I want to utalise them but there are times I draw the wrong card at the wrong time and I feel like SE hasn't given me the opportunity to actually play effectively...

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The strategy is in finding a way to use the card. You don't rely on RNG. You rely on knowing how to use a card you pulled through RNG. If you know you want a card at a certain time, shuffle the first card you get if it's not it, Spread it if you do get it.

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A WHM doesn't need to buff per say but has the ability to 'save the raid' with strong heals through unpredictable damage and abilities.[/I]

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Which AST can't do, because AST isn't as strong at healing as SCH or WHM and their cards don't currently compensate. Buffing the cards will not make you bring an AST over WHM/SCH since AST cannot keep a party alive through healing intensive fights due to weaker potencies, less tools, and worse MP management in most cases. AST is currently fine if you overgear the content, and is probably actually better than SCH/WHM if you don't need a lot of heals and just want to burn through a fight (Ex: old content) because of their card buffs. But on cutting edge content, you need to be able to save your party from the brink of death, which AST can't do currently.

Let me put it another way: AST is a healer that currently does not meet healing requirements. It'd be like if MCH/BRD couldn't meet DPS checks even though they take up a DPS slot. You don't buff their utility in that case, you buff their damage (which SE did).

It's worth noting that there is a difference between "has a use" and "is useful." Just because you can drop Spear on yourself in a 4-man dungeon to shorten your Luminiferous cooldown doesn't mean you *need* it for that or that you will notice its effects in the long run. It may end up having an overall negligible effect on the experience. Spear in particular is bad for this in 4-mans because the Expanded Royal Road buff is essentially a loss for your next buff. Spire and Ewer at least give Extend, which is almost always useful, except when you already have the Extend waiting (which is where the RNG can be very punishing at times).

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Originally Posted by Karen_Cerfrumos

It's not a question whether or not it's useful, it's a question of whether or not it's worth dealing with lower healing throughput and trashy cooldowns

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Which is why I'm saying focus on buffing their healing and CDs and not their cards

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TP reduction that becomes a complete non-point since there's only a handful of fights where TP management becomes a big issue; or a damage reduction that you can't summon when needed in a game that's all about premeditated damage.

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AST is fine in everything but the end raids, which is where TP and MP management is an issue. Which is when you want those cards.

As for the damage reduction, I doubt SE has balanced any fights on 10% Damage Reduction from an RNG card, which means Bole is just making the healers and the tanks breathe easier when you draw it.

As I am repeating for at least the 3rd time in this thread, AST are healers first and buffs are icing. They currently cannot compete on a basic healing level and that is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

It's worth noting that there is a difference between "has a use" and "is useful."

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No, there isn't. Useful means "able to be used," as opposed to "unable to be used," as in there is no point in that card.

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Just because you can drop Spear on yourself in a 4-man dungeon to shorten your Luminiferous cooldown doesn't mean you *need* it for that or that you will notice its effects in the long run.

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Why in the world are we talking as if 4 man dungeons matter for anything? Nothing is balanced around 4 man dungeons. AST is fine in 4 man dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

It's worth noting that there is a difference between "has a use" and "is useful." Just because you can drop Spear on yourself in a 4-man dungeon to shorten your Luminiferous cooldown doesn't mean you *need* it for that or that you will notice its effects in the long run. It may end up having an overall negligible effect on the experience. Spear in particular is bad for this in 4-mans because the Expanded Royal Road buff is essentially a loss for your next buff. Spire and Ewer at least give Extend, which is almost always useful, except when you already have the Extend waiting (which is where the RNG can be very punishing at times).

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Couldn't have said it better. This is part of what I've been trying to explain.

AST feels incredibly unsatisfying in 4-man content because of this, and it's not because their healing is sub-par. It's because the core mechanic that separates AST from SCH and WHM is poorly implemented.

However, in 8-man content AST lacks considerably in the healing department, and then also feels unsatisfying to play, as it only caters to perfect scenarios and flawless execution by team mates.

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Why in the world are we talking as if 4 man dungeons matter for anything? Nothing is balanced around 4 man dungeons. AST is fine in 4 man dungeons.

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Some people actually care about 4 man dungeons, as well. Especially since, what? Only 15% of the playerbase even finished BCoB? I'd say it's important.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Why in the world are we talking as if 4 man dungeons matter for anything? Nothing is balanced around 4 man dungeons. AST is fine in 4 man dungeons.

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Okay, yeah, but "Is fine" is a bad proposition. Why would I take an AST into a 4 man when I can go as a SCH, offer consistent haste and DPS, and finish the dungeon much faster without breaking a sweat?

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Originally Posted by Karen_Cerfrumos

Okay, yeah, but "Is fine" is a bad proposition. Why would I take an AST into a 4 man when I can go as a SCH, offer consistent haste and DPS, and finish the dungeon much faster without breaking a sweat?

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Because you don't need a WHM or SCH to clear the dungeon, you find AST more fun, they complete the content just as well as the SCH or WHM, and they don't actually finish dungeons much more quickly than an AST?

Whether or not they feel satisfying in a dungeon is a totally different argument than whether or not they are balanced vs. SCH or WHM. I agree that cards feel lacking in four-man content because half the cards don't feel as useful in four-man content, especially when you never run out of TP in dungeons unless you died and you continually draw Spear and Spire.

But then again, if you made the card buffs powerful enough to always be useful in 4-mans, they'd likely be far too powerful for 8-mans.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

But then again, if you made the card buffs powerful enough to always be useful in 4-mans, they'd likely be far too powerful for 8-mans.

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They could easily make them always useful in 4-mans without being overpowered. At the very least, combining the Spire/Ewer cards and Spear/Arrow cards would make it feel a lot less unsatisfying in 4-man content, without making it overpowered in 8-man content. Especially since the Spear on it's own is very very situational outside highly organized gameplay. Making shuffle not redraw the same card would also go a long way with this. It's incredibly frustrating to play AST in 4-man content currently, and again, it's not because the healing is sub-par.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

No, there isn't. Useful means "able to be used," as opposed to "unable to be used," as in there is no point in that card.

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Colloquially, there is, especially when it comes to game mechanics/abilities. Nobody posting on these forums is writing dissertations, they're instead writing informally, and so sometimes you have to get at their *intent* rather than the very letter of what they wrote. When people are saying the cards don't feel "useful," they mean that they aren't noticing their impact in play, even if they know the "proper" way to use them.

Spire, for instance, has a pretty obvious use, but when used to reduce TP costs, it frequently has no *impact*. Ditto for Ewer or Spear.

And, for what it's worth, 4-man dungeons do matter. Everyone has to do them for tomes. Don't pretend that the general dominance of BRD and BLM in 4-man dungeons at 2.0 didn't play a part in the adjustments that followed for melee classes (though they were not, obviously, the *whole* part). The devs do consider balance in the game as a whole. Personally, I heal primarily in 4-mans and DPS in 8-mans, and I am sure there are many players that do in fact care how a class performs or whether or not it is fun in 4-mans.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

They could easily make them useful without being overpowered. At the very least, combining the Spire/Ewer cards and Spear/Arrow cards would make it feel a lot less punishing in 4-man content, without making it overpowered in 8-man content. Especially since the Spear on it's own is very very situational.

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I don't think combining cards is a good option because it mitigates the RNG far too much. From what I've seen in the bug reports forum, Spear was also supposed to lower the cooldowns of abilities already used, which it doesn't so far, and changing it to that would make it MUCH better.

I don't like the combining either, because it means you have a 33% chance of drawing any single card, and Spear/Arrow is incredibly strong on anyone, whereas Spire/Ewer and Balance/Bole are much less effective on a single target since only half of the buff is useful. It just means you would feel bad when you don't draw the Spear/Arrow card.

I'd rather they reduce the CD of Shuffle to 60s and have RR reduce Draw's cooldown to 15s, in addition to buffing their base healing so you can actually heal as well as SCH/WHM minus their buffs.

Also there is still the problem of Noct Collective Unconscious sucking and Celestial Opposition sucking, and Noct sucking in general compared to Diurnal. Card changes are, I feel, near the bottom of what AST needs to be comparable to WHM/SCH for content.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Spire, for instance, has a pretty obvious use, but when used to reduce TP costs, it frequently has no *impact*. Ditto for Ewer or Spear.

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Like I said, Spear always has an impact on SCH/SMN/NIN and frequently has an impact on tanks for CDs and yourself for ED and LA. Is it always the best card? Nope. And if I draw an Ewer during a trash pull, I Spread it or RR it so I can DPS during bosses and then spam Benefic II.

There is not a single class in the game that doesn't have abilities that are useless in dungeons. Dissipate, Eos, Sacred Soil, Asylum, Virus, TP/MP Regen Songs, Silences, Binds, Heavies, any "oh shit" button is generally useless if you are playing correctly. That doesn't mean they have to be changed to feel useful. Cards could feel better, I agree. They just aren't the primary problem with AST getting into progression groups.

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\Personally, I heal primarily in 4-mans and DPS in 8-mans, and I am sure there are many players that do in fact care how a class performs or whether or not it is fun in 4-mans.

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I don't understand this statement, because whether or not card buffs feel useful in 4-mans AST is going to be worse than SCH/WHM in end-game.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I don't think combining cards is a good option because it mitigates the RNG far too much. From what I've seen in the bug reports forum, Spear was also supposed to lower the cooldowns of abilities already used, which it doesn't so far, and changing it to that would make it MUCH better.

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Sadly that's not yet confirmed to be the case. A bug moves to the "Accepted" forum only when it's acknowledged that the Bug Report was *filed* correctly. It doesn't mean the bug has actually been confirmed.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I don't think combining cards is a good option because it mitigates the RNG far too much. From what I've seen in the bug reports forum, Spear was also supposed to lower the cooldowns of abilities already used, which it doesn't so far, and changing it to that would make it MUCH better.

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Link to that information, please?

Being an "accepted bug" doesn't mean "confirmed bug with incoming fix". It just means that person completed the bug report properly, and it was accepted as an entry.

The RNG factor is what makes AST so terrible in 4-man groups. It needs to be mitigated, especially since Spire/Ewer/Spear are almost always a complete waste of Draw in 4-man content. Drawing any one of these cards more than once makes me regret playing AST over WHM/SCH; it's infuriating.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Link to that information, please?

Being an "accepted bug" doesn't mean "confirmed bug with incoming fix". It just means that person completed the bug report properly, and it was accepted as an entry.

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Ah, you're right. I don't know where the thread went because I can't find it in the Accepted nor the Working as Intended Forums, so I assume it's somewhere out there.

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The RNG factor is what makes AST so terrible in 4-man groups. It needs to be mitigated, especially since Spire/Ewer/Spear are almost always a complete waste of Draw in 4-man content. Drawing any one of these cards more than once makes me regret playing AST over WHM/SCH; it's infuriating.

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Which is why I suggested buffing the tools that mitigate the RNG rather than just doing away with half of it. Like I said, I'm not against card changes. They do need to feel better. I'm just not sure it's the first thing that needs to be changed or how much of the RNG needs to be mitigated flat-out instead of via the abilities we already have.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

There is not a single class in the game that doesn't have abilities that are useless in dungeons. Dissipate, Eos, Sacred Soil, Asylum, Virus, TP/MP Regen Songs, Silences, Binds, Heavies, any "oh shit" button is generally useless if you are playing correctly. That doesn't mean they have to be changed to feel useful. Cards could feel better, I agree. They just aren't the primary problem with AST getting into progression groups.

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You're making the argument that the class's core feature shouldn't need to be useful in one of the game's primary content modes, though. AST's cards not feeling useful is the equivalent of Ninjutsu or Greased Lightning not feeling useful in 4-mans (and MNKs have received adjustments so that Greased Lightning feels better both in 4-man content and 8-man content). For a healer-specific example, imagine if Eos/Selene weren't useful in 4-mans. Don't you think SCHs would find that a little strange? The faerie is a big part of what makes SCH unique, just as the cards are with AST, regardless of content.

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I don't understand this statement, because whether or not card buffs feel useful in 4-mans AST is going to be worse than SCH/WHM in end-game.

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Are you aware that there can be multiple concerns regarding a class at the same time? How can you not understand that AST needs work for *all* content, not just one narrow slice of the game?

I don't play AST, but i don't need to to see that ewer and spire are both useless.

Why? A decent DRK needs no help to manage his MP. SCH and SMN never had MP issues. WHM seems to be the on a similar level now and, as for BLM, you will most likely mess his rotation.

Spire? Come on. It's only relevant when used on a DRK and only when he's off-tanking, but that's because of some glaring design issues the kit has. Both PLD and WAR can manage just fine (as they should). And it doesn't come even close to what goad brings to the table (not to mention you rely on RNGsus. With cooldowns as long as they are, god forbid you if you burn the card at an incorrect time). Spire doesn't help if your target is low on TP already.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

You're making the argument that the class's core feature shouldn't need to be useful in one of the game's primary content modes, though.

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No, I'm not. I'm saying it's not their primary problem and it doesn't need to be as drastically changed as people are suggesting. They could feel better, yes. You don't always get useless cards in dungeons; the core feature is not useless.

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Are you aware that there can be multiple concerns regarding a class at the same time? How can you not understand that AST needs work for *all* content, not just one narrow slice of the game?

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I am aware. I am just wondering why everyone is focusing on drastic changes to the card mechanic when the largest issue is that AST cannot heal as well as it needs to be able to to complete end-game content satisfactorily, and that they have a lot of post-50 abilities that feel weak to use and Noct Stance is universally worse than Diurnal. Whenever I stated that, people jump on and start saying that if cards are changed AST will be fine.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Which is why I suggested buffing the tools that mitigate the RNG rather than just doing away with half of it.

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Ewer/Spire combination needs to happen, at the very least.

It\\\\'s not uncommon to do 4-mans without a magic DPS or physical DPS, which makes at least 1 of 6 draws immediately useless. Even one of the magic DPS can\\\\'t really make much use of Ewer; BLM is really the only class in 4-mans that can significantly benefit from it.

Physical DPS in 4-mans also don\\\\'t tend to need more TP/Spear; sometimes a WAR/PLD might, though. It gets a mild pass.

Combined with Shuffle not redrawing the same card, and Royal Road buffs being more effective in a 4-man setting, I could see AST being far more satisfying as an alternative to SCH DPS. It would make smart gameplay far more rewarding, rather than being given the middle finger everytime you draw Ewer/Spire.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

No, I'm not. I'm saying it's not their primary problem and it doesn't need to be as drastically changed as people are suggesting. They could feel better, yes. You don't always get useless cards in dungeons; the core feature is not useless.

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I don't feel it needs *drastic* changes at all. There are a number of simple fixes that would make the cards feel useful without retooling the whole system. Ewer and Spire would be more generally useful if they provided resource regeneration instead of cost reduction, for instance. Spear would be better if it worked on already spent cooldowns (as is, it requires knowing that someone hasn't spent their cooldowns, which is a level of communication that's just not generally available in a split second)--but that would also be incredibly powerful, so they might need to rework that one. Bole, Balance, and Arrow are pretty much fine. Beyond that, Shuffle should probably not be able to draw the same card again.

Their healing side needs work too, but nothing drastic is likely to be needed there outside of potency tweaks, though Lightspeed probably needs a rework so it's actually a decent emergency button.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Ewer/Spire combination needs to happen, at the very least.

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I'm not so sure on this one personally. They'd have to rewrite the class story, so they won't be doing this one in all likelihood. Each of these probably just needs to either provide regeneration or have a secondary buff associated with it. As is, they give one of the better Royal Road options, so they're not completely terrible. They just need slight changes to "feel" better.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Ewer/Spire combination needs to happen, at the very least.

It\\\\'s not uncommon to do 4-mans without a magic DPS or physical DPS, which makes at least 1 of 6 draws immediately useless. Even one of the magic DPS can\\\\'t really make much use of Ewer; BLM is really the only class in 4-mans that can significantly benefit from it.

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I agree. Spire is useless to use on someone in a 4-man anyways since you only run out of TP if your DPS is too low in the first place. I also think Spire/Ewer combo would make sense because you could just combined it into a "Spell and weaponskill costs are reduced by 20%," and 20% chance to draw a card sounds like a good between for 33% and 16.6%. It's unlikely to happen though, because they'd have to either make a new card to replace the 6th or change the storyline entirely to cut out the 6th gate.

Ewer always useful for RR or Spread to save for later.

Spear useful on SMN/SCH/NIN/Tank.

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Physical DPS in 4-mans also don\\\\'t tend to need more TP/Spear; sometimes a WAR/PLD might, though. It gets a mild pass.

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I agree. I'm really hoping the not reducing already used abilities is a bug and it gets fixed.

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Combined with Shuffle not redrawing the same card, and Royal Road buffs being more effective in a 4-man setting I could see AST being far more satisfying as an alternative to SCH DPS.

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Yes, but I still feel like AST would fall flat on its face during harder content because of the lack of healing :(

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I don't feel it needs *drastic* changes at all.

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I agree. QoL fixes here or there or small changes would go a long way.

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There are a number of simple fixes that would make the cards feel useful without retooling the whole system. Ewer and Spire would be more generally useful if they provided resource regeneration instead of cost reduction, for instance. Spear would be better if it worked on already spent cooldowns (as is, it requires knowing that someone hasn't spent their cooldowns, which is a level of communication that's just not generally available in a split second)--but that would also be incredibly powerful, so they might need to rework that one. Bole, Balance, and Arrow are pretty much fine. Beyond that, Shuffle should probably not be able to draw the same card again.

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I agree with all of this as well, except that would make Ewer/Spire useless at the beginning of a fight which is more or less the same as it is now (IE: totally useless to use in a lot of situations).

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Their healing side needs work too, but nothing drastic is likely to be needed there outside of potency tweaks, though Lightspeed probably needs a rework so it's actually a decent emergency button.

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I agree. Their healing only needs potency tweaks, and other than that it's really just making their cards and abilities more useful (Lightspeed, Noct Stance in general, Celestial Opposition are the largest offenders IMO.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Yes, but I still feel like AST would fall flat on its face during harder content because of the lack of healing :(

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I meant Spire, not Spear, sorry. On my phone and can't edit. Also, Lore can easily be edited; it's a lousy reason to keep a poorly designed mechanic.

Yes, AST healing does need adjustments in 8-man content, especially in regards to nocturnal stance and cool downs

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I agree with all of this as well, except that would make Ewer/Spire useless at the beginning of a fight which is more or less the same as it is now (IE: totally useless to use in a lot of situations).

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That's a fair point, though Goad at least can be useful early in a pull on a tank or something. The resource management only has an affect in longer encounters either way, but they're probably set on keeping them as resource tools. It would be nice if they did something else small in addition to their resource adjustment (something like a small critical hit buff for Spire, perhaps, or a minor HP regen for Ewer). That way if the resources aren't needed, they can still have at least a small benefit (in the event that you already have RR and Shuffle into one).

And yes, Nocturnal needs adjustments as does Celestial Opposition. I'd like to see Collective Unconscious lose one of either the movement lock or casting lock, but in Diurnal at least I have occasionally found it useful for a mana-free period of healing.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I am aware. I am just wondering why everyone is focusing on drastic changes to the card mechanic when the largest issue is that AST cannot heal as well as it needs to be able to to complete end-game content satisfactorily, and that they have a lot of post-50 abilities that feel weak to use and Noct Stance is universally worse than Diurnal. Whenever I stated that, people jump on and start saying that if cards are changed AST will be fine.

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I don't think anyone is saying the cards are the sole problem.

Healing in Diurnal stance is fine - As stated before Diurnal stance is about sustaining the raid rather than specifically predicting damage (SCH) or reacting to damage (WHM).
Healing in Nocturnal stance needs to be addressed - I'm not sure what exact buff it needs. Maybe it is a pure potency increase on all spells but at the same time I think it should be reworked completely - Maybe some channelling high potency spells like a healing chain between players.

Also DPS does need to be slightly addressed to make AST viable in 4 mans (as there are people that don't raid). Gravity should put up a 4 second reduced mob attack damage, and 2 and then 1 second just as holy works but as an alternative to stun.

Hit 60 SCH.

Holy *shit* the difference in ex roulette...

*sigh* So much easier to heal as SCH...

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Hit 60 SCH.

Holy *shit* the difference in ex roulette...

*sigh* So much easier to heal as SCH...

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Bane and Fairy just makes it fly by doesn't it?

as a 60ast and 60sch i can safely say scholar absolutely blows astrologian away.

I've done both manipulator and ravana ex in both astro stances with a WHM partner and surprisingly diurnal produces better results. It's a better self buff and the HoT stacking is a lot better than super inefficient shields
Also, Synastry is a heck of a good skill. It makes things that can be kind of sketchy a breeze

Scholar though... the situations never get sketchy to begin with. Everything is taken care of and dealt with before it ever even gets scary

It's just night and day, so much stronger in every way you can't even really compare


My WHM isn't 60 yet but so far it's the better comparison to astrologian
astrologian feels like a weak WHM that is slightly more nimble and has to choose between HoT or shield instead of just having regen and fast stoneskin
and instead of having really serious damage output, it has potentially pretty strong but wholly unreliable gambling buffs

After playing 60 AST through the primals and some of alex hm, then reading the majority of this thread, I'm starting to feel like I'm in agreement with AST needing a buff. My personal experience has just mostly been the case of feeling like a less potent whm with cards, but when the ship starts sinking there's not much I can do to keep it afloat.

Now how do we go about bitching in a way that will get us a buff like bard/mch ?

I think some people missed the point that while a BRD regenerates TP/MP, an AST *reduces* TP/MP use. It is often the case that players who are low in TP/MP will ask for its regen and not when it is near full. So in this aspect, the AST's buffs are not for emergencies when a player's TP/MP is low.

People keep saying "SCH/WHM are so much stronger and easier to play than AST." People are forgetting that the 3 new jobs are complex and supposed to be played by advanced players in a high skilled manner. That's the whole point of the class, entirely.

Still, people are complainng about mp management being rough. It's really the same as WHM if you're playing the class right. No one here who is saying they're having trouble with management sounds like they're taking the steps to keep their mana pool up. You basically have to use all the skills at your disposal, and not just pop the Shroud equivelant. It's just not as simple, and that's what everyone has to come to terms with. I've been working with a high crit/ss build and it's so far been great for me. The only reason I've ever messed up while healing is because I made a mistake and accidently hit cleric stance twice, and couldn't heal properly for that moment.

Otherwise yes, excessive mistakes of other players are hard to deal with. Low dps of those other players is hard to deal with. But it's always difficult to deal with other players who aren't quite on the level you'd like them to be, but it is totally doable. I've still kept up and cleared content with people messing up constantly and taking stupid dmg. Even if every other player hits a mine once in Fractal have I been able to bring things back to order, and if I'm oom It's at the END of a fight. What does it matter if I'm depleted at the very end? The exhilaration is fantastic as AST, rather than lazy heavy heals as WHM and the extra support from a fairy. Don't get me wrong though, I absolutely love every healing class. Each one is fantastic.

Now my real problem atm? I see no BRDs/MCHs even thinking about or paying attention to their healers mana. I have not been sung one song in the past 3 weeks. What's up with that? My FC leader went MCH and even last night, didn't "promote" till the last 5 sec of a fight when we were fine and I still had 3k mp.

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Originally Posted by Vill_Castiglioni

People keep saying "SCH/WHM are so much stronger and easier to play than AST." People are forgetting that the 3 new jobs are complex and supposed to be played by advanced players in a high skilled manner. That's the whole point of the class, entirely.

Still, people are complainng about mp management being rough. It's really the same as WHM if you're playing the class right.

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I have played both WHM and AST using the SAME gear (except the MH) in the SAME instance and AST healing is still subpar. If I wasn't interested in AST, why would I level it to 60? Factual-wise, AST's healing has lower healing potency than WHM. Healing potency affects mana management - if AST requires more healing spells to be cast to heal the same amount of HP compared to WHM, AST will use more mana than WHM. Hence, AST's mana management is going to be more problematic than a WHM's - which part of this logic do you not get?

To state here that WHM's mana management is the same as AST is just plain factually wrong - it is not a perception, it is factually wrong. Learn to accept this.

AST's comparative lack of CDs that increase healing efficiency is a glaring oversight IMO.

Additionally, if you find yourself frequently blowing cards to cast Spear and Ewer on yourself (as I hear many people around here do) that's a little sad because it mostly negates the group benefit of the entire card mechanic. The Job should be able to sustain itself adequately without having to patch up its MP issues by hoarding cards for itself.

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Originally Posted by Deheuty

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And your oversight is to how I stated that it is lower potency and is more difficult to play ON PURPOSE. They aren't going to make it easier, because that wasn't what they wanted or planned on when they created the job. It is a complex job, where you must use all your skills correctly and timely to be successful.

I played WHM 2.0-2.2, playing AST now. I don't have WHM to 60 yet, currently 55. Here's my $0.02.

When I started with AST, I had MP issues. Mainly because I was playing it like a WHM, which isn't efficient. So I looked at potency per mp-spent with AST vs WHM and the AST wins except for AB vs regen.... of course. I've trained myself to keep my finger away from AB unless necessary, which I've surprisingly found isn't too often. I'm not having any MP issues in all of the floors of Alex. Looking at parsing data I'm regularly healing right under or as much as my static's SCH(1100-1400 "enchps") and consistently doing more DPS on single targets(300-400AST/200-300SCH). The fairy's healing puts the SCH's healing ahead overall though(200-250selene,500-600eos).

Also, while doing Bismark EX if RNG played into my favor on cards during the shell burn I saw at least 3 dps go from 1000-1100 dps to 1300. I saw that scenario twice in one night, once with an aoe balance and again with an aoe arrow.

So I honestly think the AST is fine. Once I set my mind to "sustaining" my MP has stayed up and people haven't died from a lack of heals. Add on the strong DPS buffs in burn phases and you've got a very sought after role. With that said, I will be leveling my WHM to 60 and using it in fights with my static where DPS burns are not the concern and pure healing thru-put is required.

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Originally Posted by Loutail

I played WHM 2.0-2.2, playing AST now. I don't have WHM to 60 yet, currently 55. Here's my $0.02.

When I started with AST, I had MP issues. Mainly because I was playing it like a WHM, which isn't efficient. So I looked at potency per mp-spent with AST vs WHM and the AST wins except for AB vs regen.... of course. I've trained myself to keep my finger away from AB unless necessary, which I've surprisingly found isn't too often. I'm not having any MP issues in all of the floors of Alex. Looking at parsing data I'm regularly healing right under or as much as my static's SCH(1100-1400 "enchps") and consistently doing more DPS on single targets(300-400AST/200-300SCH). The fairy's healing puts the SCH's healing ahead overall though(200-250selene,500-600eos).

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SCH does more damage if played well. You have more damage over time skills than other healer jobs and one GCD dps skill. I think your SCH wasn't focused on his dps, just my opinion. Even on single target.

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Originally Posted by Khyan

SCH does more damage if played well. You have more damage over time skills than other healer jobs and one GCD dps skill. I think your SCH wasn't focused on his dps, just my opinion. Even on single target.

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IDK, Malefic II + DoTs including Aero is pretty awesome on single target. It's spectacular when DPS suck.

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Originally Posted by Vill_Castiglioni

Still, people are complainng about mp management being rough. It's really the same as WHM if you're playing the class right. No one here who is saying they're having trouble with management sounds like they're taking the steps to keep their mana pool up.

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I don't think you're giving us enough credit here. Yes, a new healer might be firing off benefic 2 when there's no immediate upcoming damage and benefic will do, or might forget to use synastry with both MT and OT taking damage-- but a lot of us are experienced healers and know that MP management is more than just the MP regen ability.

AST's healing actually isn't that complex. It's a subset of the 50 WHM kit with some tweaks. It's not like SCH where you have multiple resources to manage (pet, pet CDs, stacks, MP, a lot of mitigation abilities that can be somewhat situational, etc) -- AST has only MP.

Now cards are a bit more complex but cards don't heal.

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Originally Posted by Vill_Castiglioni

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Have you healed Ravana ex?

The job is really fun and does fine in 4 man content. It is when you get in long, protracted fights that you'll see the struggle. Spread is used to save spear removing any control over rng. Card buffs are hoarded for yourself.

I've completed Ravana on both scholar and astrologian and while I didn't need a turret the shortcomings of the job are glaring, especially for mana management. I'm constantly behind in healing and spend a great deal of time idle trying to recoup mana when I'd be dpsing on my scholar. Having to spend so many cards sustaining myself instead of buffing the raid destroys the fun of the job in endgame raiding.

I am going to vehemently disagree that a properly played whm has mana issues. I used to main whm and never needed ballad. My current whm static member never needed ballad even in T13 progression at sub I 120 with the scholar pushing dps full time. Heals are stronger, they have a self heal buff, regen is more efficient than aspected bene. They also now have a second CD for mana recover that does both aoe damage and heals. Your are correct, there is no comparison between the two classes because at level 60 whm far outpaces ast in so many ways.

Such a shame I won't be playing this job.

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Originally Posted by Vill_Castiglioni

IDK, Malefic II + DoTs including Aero is pretty awesome on single target. It's spectacular when DPS suck.

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Aero's use for AST is debatable. It has the same total potency as Malefic II, but only if you get all 6 tics (which you aren't guaranteed because of the server pulse). It does have a cheaper MP cost, though, which does matter for AST, especially when DPSing.

But in situations where you can use it, it's still helpful then and not useless.

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Originally Posted by Vill_Castiglioni

And your oversight is to how I stated that it is lower potency and is more difficult to play ON PURPOSE. They aren't going to make it easier, because that wasn't what they wanted or planned on when they created the job. It is a complex job, where you must use all your skills correctly and timely to be successful.

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Outside of the card mechanic the job is very simple. Making the job significantly weaker on it's main role (healing) is not making it "more complex." It's just making it worse than SCH/WHM. If AST could heal as well as SCH/WHM minus the use of cards or the use of healing buffs, then AST would be comparable. But it can't because its potencies are lower across the board in Diurnal, it lacks a way to stabilize the group, and it has nothing to fall back on when shit hits the fan. Nocturnal Stance makes the potencies exactly the same as Cure I/Cure II, but in that case your shield is awful and you still don't have as many tools to help with your healing.