When would you take DRK over PLD or WAR?

A DRK friend mildly better geared than me said he can put out more damage than me, the WAR. I promptly replied with three Fel Cleaves in one berserk.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

A DRK friend mildly better geared than me said he can put out more damage than me, the WAR. I promptly replied with three Fel Cleaves in one berserk.

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DRK can currently outdamage Warriors when MTing, but not while OTing.

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

DRK can currently outdamage Warriors when MTing, but not while OTing.

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Is this a confirmed thing? Can't help but be somewhat skeptical.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

Is this a confirmed thing? Can't help but be somewhat skeptical.

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Most of Warrior's "big DPS" numbers come from Fell Cleave, which is dangerous to try and use while MTing (except in specific circumstances, like during Liberation), whereas Dark Knight has no such restrictions and can parse similarly high to Warriors without Grit (910 is the highest I've seen, versus about 1000 for Warrior). The issue is mostly sustainability: Warriors can keep going indefinitely, while Dark Knights and Paladins will both run out of TP at about 2:20 of continuous ability use.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

Is this a confirmed thing? Can't help but be somewhat skeptical.

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Kinda doubt it, would love to see some actual numbers instead of "well, theoretically..."

Based on Alex DFing as Healer... PLD seemed the savest to heal, WAR was the most interesting (demn deployed critloquiums :> ) and DRK was something in between (with one DRK that was so squishy that any dps would have been easier to keep alive - was decent the time he switched to his full VIT accessories *cough*).

I think I'd take a PLD no matter what with a slight bias to get a WAR as second tank...

Yea there's so many factors to consider when it comes to comparing tank DPS - just what instance you're rolling makes a difference..

Really so far we can only just provide anecdotes. So here's one:

Ran the Vault as DRG. Others were WAR, SMN, WHM.

That WAR out dps'd the SMN almost everywhere - trash mobs and bosses. There was only 1 boss where the SMN beat the WAR. It wasn't like the SMN was bad. It was a 20min run - very fast. So DPS was solid from everyone - but that WAR was clearly bringing a level of pain I couldn't replicate as a DRK - or WAR - for that matter. His damage contributions were making a significant impact on the speed of the run. Wish I had it on video record or had the chance to requeue with him to analyze it more

I believe yoshi p stated the dpsing of war and drk are on par. I personally believe war has more burst which is favorable on parsers.

If WAR has more burst, then what the hell does DRK have? Because it's certainly not sustained DPS, we don't have the TP management for that.

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

Most of Warrior's "big DPS" numbers come from Fell Cleave, which is dangerous to try and use while MTing (except in specific circumstances, like during Liberation), whereas Dark Knight has no such restrictions and can parse similarly high to Warriors without Grit (910 is the highest I've seen, versus about 1000 for Warrior). The issue is mostly sustainability: Warriors can keep going indefinitely, while Dark Knights and Paladins will both run out of TP at about 2:20 of continuous ability use.

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War also has unchained while tanking, which is pretty huge burst when paired with berserk and inner release.

My *guess* is that the DRK will pull ahead while tanking. DRK have a slight natural advantage in tank stance (DRK does 92% damage in grit+darkside, WAR does 90% damage in defiance+maim), DRK base attack potency is stronger and DRK has numerous oGCD attacks. I don't see how WAR can keep up without constantly stance dancing and excessive fel cleave usage. This, of course, would cut greatly into their mitigation. Granted, this is all guess work, would need some better evaluation and parses to be sure.

But TP is a massive issue. I run out of TP MTing ramuh normal :/

Also constantly run out in alexander 4 unless I pick up one of the adds with unleash/unmend/abyssal drain.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

If WAR has more burst, then what the hell does DRK have? Because it's certainly not sustained DPS, we don't have the TP management for that.

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Ogcds. I think in real fights their gap closer should help them parse better too when used intelligently.

Really I think a small change that would help drk parse better and make them feel a little more fun and unique would be to make unmend not interrupt combos. That way any time you had to dodge you could unmend + gap close to help sustained dps.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

Ogcds. I think in real fights their gap closer should help them parse better too when used intelligently.

Really I think a small change that would help drk parse better and make them feel a little more fun and unique would be to make unmend not interrupt combos. That way any time you had to dodge you could unmend + gap close to help sustained dps.

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Sort of on that note, I actually really like how we can use unmend if we're out of TP to sustain some damage. Use our mana to keep DPSing while we wait for TP to regen. It feels different from existing TP management other classes use, which is pretty much just to hit the "give me back TP" button.

However the problem is unmend is too weak for this. Even though it is the best thing we can do when we're out of TP (unmend and/or free unleash while we wait for TP to regen), our DPS drop heavily when we have to resort to this. It would be nice if we had some other GCD move that only cost mana and did better damage (200 or so range), such that we could use it as part of our normal rotation with much less loss to our DPS, then I think we'd be ok. It would be even better if this was something that would apply a useful debuff effect, to provide some much needed additional utility.

Another person posted in a thread a while back suggesting that Abyssal Drain's Dark Arts effect moved over to Unleash, and AD be changed to a powerful single target MP-based ability to be used inbetween combos to save on TP costs. It would definitely be a positive change, both in terms of balance and quality of life, seeing as Abyssal Drain and Unleash are pretty much the same skill right now.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Yea there's so many factors to consider when it comes to comparing tank DPS - just what instance you're rolling makes a difference..

Really so far we can only just provide anecdotes. So here's one:

Ran the Vault as DRG. Others were WAR, SMN, WHM.

That WAR out dps'd the SMN almost everywhere - trash mobs and bosses. There was only 1 boss where the SMN beat the WAR. It wasn't like the SMN was bad. It was a 20min run - very fast. So DPS was solid from everyone - but that WAR was clearly bringing a level of pain I couldn't replicate as a DRK - or WAR - for that matter. His damage contributions were making a significant impact on the speed of the run. Wish I had it on video record or had the chance to requeue with him to analyze it more

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No job in the game, except perhaps a BLM due to sustainability, should be able to out DPS a SMN on trash mobs at that level and above. This also probably indicates why he was getting out dps'ed on bosses. I'm not arguing that the WAR wasn't awesome, but that I just don't see the credibility of this example due to these results.

This has turned into a war vs drk dps thread. (Atleast within the past page and a half) I see people echoing "drks have tp issues". When is the happening for you? Im usually comcerned with which rotation i can use based on my mp and which D buff to use when. Ive never once thought of my tp because its just always there. Many fights have lulls for mechanic transitions and such so i dont see where this happenning.

Maybe ill just whack a training dummy and see how long it takes me to run out. Even then, that type of constant stand still ability spam rarely happens in practice.

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Originally Posted by Bustaperizm

This has turned into a war vs drk dps thread. (Atleast within the past page and a half) I see people echoing "drks have tp issues". When is the happening for you? Im usually comcerned with which rotation i can use based on my mp and which D buff to use when. Ive never once thought of my tp because its just always there. Many fights have lulls for mechanic transitions and such so i dont see where this happenning.

Maybe ill just whack a training dummy and see how long it takes me to run out. Even then, that type of constant stand still ability spam rarely happens in practice.

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A Drk's TP lasts roughly 2 minutes depending on your SS, and how active your uptime is with both your skills and Blood Weapon.

There are a couple (More like a crap ton) of fights you can easily burn your TP on right now. A1, A2, A3, A4, BisEX.

T1, T2 (Rot passing could maybe have helped TP), T4, T5, T6, T7, T8 especially, T9 phase 1 to final golems, and then heavensfall to the end. T10, T11 especially. T12, T13 if you're MT or aren't targeted a lot by earthshaker as OT. The add phase may help, but then after teraflare, you're back to burning your TP. Only exception would be if you create distance for the tether by running away from bahamut.

Fights that have you constantly hitting something is a hell of a lot more common than people put it out to be. Dunno why people act as if Ravana is the example of all raid content, when Ravana is literally THE exception.

Anything a War could run out of TP on before Heavensward, a Drk will run out even faster. People create downtime for themselves, hence why some don't feel they have TP management issues. But by doing that, you aren't at 100% uptime, and your DPS is probably not very high seeing as for a Drk to hold high numbers, you have to be going in crazy hard.

When the person who's playing tank wants to be one. If they are good enough it won't matter which tank they pick. Personally as a raid leader so long as it wasn't two drks I wouldn't care. I would however be more inclined to push for a dark knight if there wasn't a monk in the group to get the int debuff. But honestly the jobs in this game are homogenized enough that it really doesn't make a difference and at this point drks seem to make up 60% of the end game tanking population and I've cleared loads of content with them. If your team is failing because of the tank job your tank is running there is probably a bigger issue.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

However the problem is unmend is too weak for this. Even though it is the best thing we can do when we're out of TP (unmend and/or free unleash while we wait for TP to regen), our DPS drop heavily when we have to resort to this.

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Unmend is 150 potency (which is better than Paladins or Warriors with 120 potency TP using attacks). It basically replaces an attack that does 170 damage and can proc a free unleash. That is a respectable attack that is NOT costing you any tp and allowing you to recover tp while its being used! Not sure what you want, for something that with even basic mana management is basically free?

Lets be clear--a paladin that is MTing has no tp regen. Shield swipe is a damage decrease, messes with our rotations and only receovers 10 tp per use. As an OT, we are in the same situation as dark knights(and have been for all of 2.0---and somehow made it through WITHOUT ninja's and goads until the very end of it!).

Frankly, you guys are used to whatever dps classes you came from with invigorates, or comparing yourselves to warrior OT's who have great tp management. As a Paladin who spends 120 TP per stun, and has far far fewer 'free' attacks that are also OGCD than a DRK, I will say--man the heck up! It is not that hard to throw a pause in here or there, and use unmend if your tp is getting that low!

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Anything a War could run out of TP on before Heavensward, a Drk will run out even faster. People create downtime for themselves, hence why some don't feel they have TP management issues. But by doing that, you aren't at 100% uptime, and your DPS is probably not very high seeing as for a Drk to hold high numbers, you have to be going in crazy hard.

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There are 3 tanks in the game.

You keep comparing yourself to one of them. Paladins make due and have no real source of tp regen. They also cannot weave in unmend for some continued offense or anything of the sort. You seem hung up on being great off tanks--re roll as a warrior. They excel at it. A dark knight is not as good as a war--but you parse higher than paladins do at the moment, so that is a choice you make.

Not every class (certainly tanks) get tp management. Get used to asking for goad and bards like paladins have been since the dawn of time (or in one case--the dawn of ninjas!).

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Originally Posted by Ditto

There are a couple (More like a crap ton) of fights you can easily burn your TP on right now. A1, A2, A3, A4, BisEX..

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I want to know what im doing wrong cause I've tanked these and never once thought of my tp. Ive seen that dps drk vid. He didnt run out of tp for like 2 mins with constant skill spam. Which includes stuns and blood weapon that increases skill speed that we cant use in grit. So are we strictly talking pure dps OTs here?

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

When the person who's playing tank wants to be one. If they are good enough it won't matter which tank they pick. Personally as a raid leader so long as it wasn't two drks I wouldn't care. I would however be more inclined to push for a dark knight if there wasn't a monk in the group to get the int debuff. But honestly the jobs in this game are homogenized enough that it really doesn't make a difference and at this point drks seem to make up 60% of the end game tanking population and I've cleared loads of content with them. If your team is failing because of the tank job your tank is running there is probably a bigger issue.

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Pretty much this, except for the highest ends of raiding that are pushing for firsts this is a non-issue. DRK has some issues to be sure but ever speck of content can be cleared using them with no hassle.

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Originally Posted by Bustaperizm

All these super long posts with theory crafting and weighty sounding opinions.

You bring a drk over the other two when one joins your pf. When one fits your raid schedule. When your long time in\game tank friend wants to play it instead of the other two. When content is on farm and you dont need the extra mitigation of a pld.

SE tests these classes in the content they provide. With actual info, concrete numbers and not reverse engineered fudgy ones. Im not saying SE is perfect. But itd be daft to think they created a class without proof they can make it through the content.

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This is the correct answer. Unless you're cutting content to be a world first, being 100% optimal is not needed. There expression "perfect is the enemy of good" comes to mind.

Average players really need optimization to succeed at doing something you know.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

There are 3 tanks in the game.

You keep comparingyourself to one of them. Paladins make due and have no real source of tp regen. They also cannot weave in unmend for some continued offense or anything of the sort. You seem hung up on being great off tanks--re roll as a warrior. They excel at it. A dark knight is not as good as a war--but you parse higher than paladins do at the moment, so that is a choice you make.

Not every class (certainly tanks) get tp management. Get used to asking for goad and bards like paladins have been since the dawn of time (or in one case--the dawn of ninjas!).

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I compare to other tanks because that is the only thing to compare them to. And that 3rd tank is US.

Paladins have ways to delay their TP decay. Shield Swipe, and their other casted abilities now. They're in the same boat with a Defiance warrior in that they have enough GCD abilities, or casts in their case now, that offers more time for them to regen TP.

In a Pld's case, group support or swipe procs (Which you seem to be forgetting about).

In a Wars case, high damage at only the cost of Wrath. Those kind of things do make a difference.

And it was less for the point of comparison, and more for the point of describing how fast they could burn their TP.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

I compare to other tanks because that is the only thing to compare them to. And that 3rd tank is US.

Paladins have ways to delay their TP decay. Shield Swipe, and their other casted abilities now. They're in the same boat with a Defiance warrior in that they have enough GCD abilities, or casts in their case now, that offers more time for them to regen TP.

In a Pld's case, group support or swipe procs (Which you seem to be forgetting about).

In a Wars case, high damage at only the cost of Wrath. Those kind of things do make a difference.

And it was less for the point of comparison, and more for the point of describing how fast they could burn their TP.

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Shield Swipe regens a massive 10 tp every time you use it. Only works when you are MT. You do not get THAT many casts off, (either as MT as they can be interupted very easily in raids, or OT because by the time you finish a clemency cast --the target has been filled up on HP by other tanks). It is also flat out not great---using it means your goring blade or rage debuffs will fall off, and you are doing much better damage simply doing your RA combo. It's not without purpose, but you dont just smack it cause the button lights up (infact--you very seldomly smack it at all) If you are running out of tp--you are better served just not hitting a buttons to regen tp to throw at another combo since they all have better returns on damage (both as combo averages as well as potency to combo ratio).

If you want a point of comparison, you can spam unmake --it costs mana and does a healthy 150 potency, during which time you will regen quite a bit more than shield swipe. While shield swipe hits for an extra 60 potency, it also only can be used while tanking. A DRK can manage their tp /while/ dpsing as an OT. The only way a Paladin can is by stopping to dps every once in a while to cast a slow 3 second cast, generally for little good because it all becomes overhealing (unless say, a healer is dead).

DRK have tp management, you just arnt using it correctly. You have tons of excess mana, and your unmake at 150 is nothing to sneeze at, since you are regening 100% tp for that spent GCD.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

*snip*

If you want a point of comparison, you can spam unmake --it costs mana and does a healthy 150 potency, during which time you will regen quite a bit more than shield swipe. While shield swipe hits for an extra 60 potency, it also only can be used while tanking. A DRK can manage their tp /while/ dpsing as an OT. The only way a Paladin can is by stopping to dps every once in a while to cast a slow 3 second cast, generally for little good because it all becomes overhealing (unless say, a healer is dead).

DRK have tp management, you just arnt using it correctly. You have tons of excess mana, and your unmake at 150 is nothing to sneeze at, since you are regening 100% tp for that spent GCD.

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Let's not forget a PLD that's casting isn't going to auto-attack, which is a huge portion of their Sword Oath DPS. Merely standing there auto-attacking and waiting for TP to regain is BETTER than casting Stoneskin or what-have-you.

Yep...as a MT

Casting a spell means no auto threat generation, no shield blocking or parry. Its a LONG spell and easy to interrupt.
As an OT, most of the time the spell ends up being 80% over healing cause healers are far far faster, and you are not dpsing.

Dark knight can use unmake for 150 potency, spam it, still be attacking (since its 'instant') and regen a full gcd worth of tp during that time period. Thats far superior as MT or OT to say, shield swipe (the amount of tp you gain vs the damage (free for 150, or 40 for 210).

I would take a DRK over the other two tanks, when the player playing the DRK is good.

Player skill > class

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Originally Posted by MythToken

I would take a DRK over the other two tanks, when the player playing the DRK is good.

Player skill > class

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Why?

I see this argument, but do not understand it. Can you expand on why you think this?

this topic is about when would you take a drk over a pld or war.
MythToken view is that they believe player skill > class.
They answered the topic with their own answer, from their own personal view they believe skill is more important.
There is no room to expand on a person personal view point.

He seems to imply if skill is good, he would take a dark over an equally skilled pld or war, unless I'm mistaken.

If you are saying you would take a good skill tank over a bad tank regardless of class, yeah--I agree with that. If its implying that at good skill levels that Darks excel, then I need an explanation:)

I think you have it right, it seems he is implying the former rather than the latter.