Bowharp and the Death of RNG

Lol @ this thread. The End.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

I think the bow-harp is a fantastic idea - A buffing job that can DD as well~

Not really sure what the issue is here...

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the issue, as others have pointed out and hopefull SE can see for itself, is that an Archer class and a Bard class are completely opposite spectrum in terms of play styles. One is DD, the other is completely support. People who are looking forward to playing a Bard in the future are NOT going to want to be a freaking DD...

why the HELL would they do this?!?!

edit: I also want to say that the old jobs were amazing, not only because they had an old lore feeling to them (major props to the original artistic designs from old FF games) but also because they played critical, fun and extremely interesting roles! They could just rework how songs get casted, or what energy is used when you play them... but don't trash the spirit of the job (which was DEFINITELY support).

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

However the infatuation with regurgitating things like White Mage, Black Mage, Thief, Bard, Paladin, Ranger, (Dragoon?)... is what is contributing to the hodgepodge that seemingly is being thrown at us(I am wary at a significant lack of communication about what they're planning with the patch around the corner, when in the past they seem excited to share details).

Edit: And why does it have to be a white mage; isn't a white mage the same as <insert main healer in any other rpg>? Yes. So rather than expanding upon a role fulfilled in a party(healer, tank, rdps, mdps, CC[if applicable]), they are jamming the square pegs(jobs) into the round holes(classes).

I guess if you never look more than two feet in front of you, nothing going on seems amiss.

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If you remember, they were trying to break away from "traditional" names and actions from the start, be we all see how much that was favored. So if its going to be a Final Fantasy title, why not call it what a healer has been this whole time, a white mage, why not call it what a mage has been this whole time, a black mage. It doesnt HAVE to be white mage or black mage, dragoon, or paladin, but calling them something else brings different connotation with it, upsetting the balance of the cult-fans expectations.

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Originally Posted by goonMagi

the issue, as others have pointed out and hopefull SE can see for itself, is that an Archer class and a Bard class are completely opposite spectrums in terms of play styles. One is DD, the other is completely support. People who are looking forward to playing a Bard in the future are NOT going to watch to be a freaking DD...

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Um... I am looking forward to playing a Bard AND want to be able to DD in-between casting buffs. But thanks for insinuating I'm not a person.

Also, Bard sounds like a perfect job role for Archer. They already stand in the back. And what's the point of giving archer a Job role that just does damage? What would make that role in the party any different from the Monk? Or the Dragoon?

Jobs are suppose to make the classes, which people complained play the same way, into more unique roles that have different duties during a party.

Lastly, your assumption that Bards are completely support is flawed. If you're taking FFXI as your reference, Bard's were only able to heal in between casting songs because of a WHM subjob. There is no reason why, with a bow in hand, Bards wouldn't be able to do damage in between casting songs. Besides, you don't even know how the bard job will work. For all we know you might be casting songs with TP, consequently requiring you to do some damage to be effective.

Everyone wants the future, but many are afraid to take the 1st step ahead.



I like BowHarp!

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

...but calling them something else brings different connotation with it, upsetting the balance of the cult-fans expectations.

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You know, I totally agree. This IS final fantasy, and the people who are saying that the old jobs don't matter are simply lying to everyone here and to themselves.

Don't tell us we can't want for classical names, they were GREAT and they were memorable. Why name it something stupid, like thaumaturge???? A generic word for a "miracle worker" ? what the hell?

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Originally Posted by AeraLucis

Um... I am looking forward to playing a Bard AND want to be able to DD in-between casting buffs. But thanks for insinuating I'm not a person.

Also, Bard sounds like a perfect job role for Archer. They already stand in the back. And what's the point of giving archer a Job role that just does damage? What would make that role in the party any different from the Monk? Or the Dragoon?

Jobs are suppose to make the classes, which people complained play the same way, into more unique roles that have different duties during a party.

Lastly, your assumption that Bards are completely support is flawed. If you're taking FFXI as your reference, Bard's were only able to heal in between casting songs because of a WHM subjob. There is no reason why, with a bow in hand, Bards wouldn't be able to do damage in between casting songs. Besides, you don't even know how the bard job will work. For all we know you might be casting songs with TP, consequently requiring you to do some damage to be effective.

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You are right, it would be convenient. However it would also be convenient to simply mix all opposite spectrum classes just because they share a position on the battle field. You know what, screw white/black mages.. why not just have 1 mage who does both?!?!?! THEN YOU CAN SIT AND DD WHILE YOU SUPPORT

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Originally Posted by goonMagi

You know what, screw white/black mages.. why not just have 1 mage who does both?!?!?! THEN YOU CAN SIT AND DD WHILE YOU SUPPORT

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...omg. You know what, you're so right. Just let my archer sit back and DD while one mage can both heal me and do damage in between. Oh wait...I do that every day in this game with the way classes are set up now....jeez. Do you even play this game? or know how party play works in this game? ....and how boring/easy party play is when you just do one thing?

You've probably forgotten that the only reason SE is creating this job system is because people were upset that all the DD classes played the same and the Conj in the party could heal everyone AND do great aoe damage at the same time....Thus the reason for the specialization.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

I have mixed feelings of the notion of Archers turning into Bard... but most of those feelings stem from a deep disappointment of the apparent direction of the Job System. I really dislike the jobs tied to specific classes on a 1:1 ratio, I don't see it as an expansive step.

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The Job system was never meant to be expansive. It was meant to be restrictive. It is only being added to satiate the people who can't make there own classes.

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Originally Posted by AeraLucis

...omg. You know what, you're so right. Just let my archer sit back and DD while one mage can both heal me and do damage in between. Oh wait...I do that every day in this game with the way classes are set up now....jeez. Do you even play this game? or know how party play works in this game? ....and how boring/easy party play is when you just do one thing?

You've probably forgotten that the only reason SE is creating this job system is because people were upset that all the DD classes played the same and the Conj in the party could heal everyone AND do great aoe damage at the same time....Thus the reason for the specialization.

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That is exactly what im saying; Why make a class that controls two huge roles of the overall game? Conj could support and DD, so it was stupid. I know you think the idea of a bard that does damage might be exciting, but to me it completely washes out the idea of the bard. To me it says "we don't want a bard in this game, so we are giving the archer sweet party buffs.. anyone who wanted to play bard can be a barcher, and their main role is to DD while casting buffs on everyone"

its no longer a bard, its a DD class that does support. I want a support class. yes I am a whiney child, but i dont care

I think the fact that they had to add an ENTIRE NEW WEAPON just to justify the job is proof that it didn't belong.

It's such a worthless elaboration onto Archer class and at the expense of having NO BARD CLASS IN THE FUTURE.

Why can't people see that?

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Originally Posted by goonMagi

That is exactly what im saying; Why make a class that controls two huge roles of the overall game? Conj could support and DD, so it was stupid. I know you think the idea of a bard that does damage might be exciting, but to me it completely washes out the idea of the bard. To me it says "we don't want a bard in this game, so we are giving the archer sweet party buffs.. anyone who wanted to play bard can be a barcher, and their main role is to DD while casting buffs on everyone"

its no longer a bard, its a DD class that does support. I want a support class. yes I am a whiney child, but i dont care

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Well I'm sorry to tell you that casting buffs on a party is not a full time job. You have to be doing something in between. And instead of curing, you're doing damage. Not that big a difference. In fact, its even better because as a Gladiator I'd rather have my archer skip a couple Light Shots to cast a party buff than my Conj have to skip cures while the song finishes.

'Oh sorry you died, I couldn't get the cure off. Was in the middle of a song'.

If that happened a couple times I'd rather just skip the darn buff.
And if you're looking for a 'support role' I'm pretty sure WHM will have you covered. You want the feeling of casting party buffs? Just keep shock spikes on your tank and spam Stone Skin.
If you just want to do the role of a WHM under the name of a Bard with a stupid Song Note animation, then you are beyond helping.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

I think the fact that they had to add an ENTIRE NEW WEAPON just to justify the job is proof that it didn't belong.

It's such a worthless elaboration onto Archer class and at the expense of having a bard class in the future.

Why can't people see that?

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And if they have you equip the harp under your off-hand slot where shield's normally go? Will you stop complaining then?

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

I think the fact that they had to add an ENTIRE NEW WEAPON just to justify the job is proof that it didn't belong.

It's such a worthless elaboration onto Archer class and at the expense of having a bard class in the future.

Why can't people see that?

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Its still a bow. there is no new weapon here. They just needed an excuse to give a bard an instrument. And well they've around that now. Like I've said for the 50th time now. I see a harp (NEED for music) a dagger (A great addition for close ranged auto attack combat) and a bow (the combination of the dagger and harp, used for long range combat.)
Sounds new, but at its core its a bow. So stfu, please, everything you say kinda annoys me. use your brain, you were blessed with one to be among the dominant species.

The class is Archer, not Swiss-army-knife-user.

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Originally Posted by AeraLucis

Well I'm sorry to tell you that casting buffs on a party is not a full time job. You have to be doing something in between. And instead of curing, you're doing damage. Not that big a difference.

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You know, for someone who insinuates so much freaking knowledge about older MMO games, you certainly seem to overlook the back-up healer. They are an important part of keeping the main healers mana pool full and taking care of people who aren't supposed to take damage.

You are right, if I wanted to be a main healer I could role a conj (or whm if we want to talk about FFxi). But bard existed, and there are people like me who enjoyed the role it turned into.

I like back-up healing, I like buffing, and I like playing support. Watching my team deal damage for me as I keep them alive and buffed is fun and interesting to me. Why do you want to destroy that by washing out the bard job into an archer who has imba buffs?

edit: to clarify; I think that the idea of a Barcher is just an Archer with really strong buffs for his party. So the role of a DD archer really isn't affected, because you can DD and throw songs up every 5 minutes. But the classical support role of the bard will disappear and become a generic damage dealer. essentially changing the support class into a damage class.

They can stay as Archer, and I think they might still do more damage than Monk, and Dragoon, so why they so worry about it? SE doesn't force all to use job.


Altho I wouldn't mind if SE let melee classes do more damage this time round. I think it is silly since the beginning that they make strongest DPS classes using bow lol.

you act this this is new news... archer has been spec'd to be bard since day 1 a YEAR ago... if you had bothered to do the Ul'dah storyline for the 1-20 then you'd know that :p

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Originally Posted by DantesAmore

you act this this is new news... archer has been spec'd to be bard since day 1 a YEAR ago... if you had bothered to do the Ul'dah storyline for the 1-20 then you'd know that :p

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I'm a Limsan, but I'm interested. Is this about the bard Thancred? I thought he carried a dagger.

If the Barcher is real, I would see it as essentially what Red Mage was supposed to be in XI...a Buff/Debuff specialist with very good DD.

In XI, Rdm was nerfed (by mean parties) to Refresh Whore but could solo stuff effectively whereas Bard and Corsair were really just worse versions of Rdm.

In XIV an Archer who can Buff /Debuff and still do Ranged Damage is actually my Dream Job both for Parties and esp for Solo. If I can Enfeeble enemies and Buff myself as well as party members, I will be the Red Mage Ranger I always dreamed of in XI. (and I like to sing. I go to Karaoke Bars with my Dad when I visit. ;>P )

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Originally Posted by Davorok

In XIV an Archer who can Buff /Debuff and still do Ranged Damage is actually my Dream Job both for Parties and esp for Solo.

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I agree that it seems like a very good job, though I imagine, (if the barcher is real) that a bit of DD power will be sacrificed to gain the ability to buff - however, the buffs will probably be worth the trade. Solo, you'd probably still go with Archer, though, if you had buffs from other jobs to put on the bar.

I support Bard-archer, a DD that can do more than just DD.

I'm disappoint about the seemingly Dark knight-Lancer but that's another thread.

Conceptually, the Bow with a harp tacked on to half of it, as witnessed in the illustration floating around is just extremely awkward. To play the harp portion you can't use the bow portion and to use the bow portion you can't use the harp portion. The need for such a device would never exist, at best someone who used a bow and could play a stringed instrument would just have both.

Blah blah fantasy, blah blah it's a game, whatever. It looks dumb. It just does. And it breaks my heart because I love Akihiko Yoshida's work, but this contraption just makes me shake my head.

As for the speculation of Archer becoming Bard I think it's pretty justified given that Bard is already on the list of jobs they've announced, and that they've announced they are currently working for one job for each class, it's possible they may throw us a curve ball but I really doubt it. I'd be more than happy if I was wrong. But my instinct is to be pessimistic given the sparse information we have.

I'd have much rather seen a new class in Minstrel or Musician or Harpist and then expanded into a Bard. Archer could become something that ties into the role of a ranged damage dealer better.

As I've said, the whole thing just seems really awkward. And I am willing to wait and see how it works, but it's going to have to be pretty damn awesome before it changes my mind on how dumb the bow/harp is.

Archer doesn't become Bard. Archer says Archer and a Bard is an unlocked option when you have ranked archer. Who says you have to be a Bard at the ending levels? Archer will still be there and will still be a great ranged DD. You are actually getting a sweet deal with this job, because not only will you have an awesome DD, but you'll have a support job to switch to as well for parties if it calls for it.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

Archer doesn't become Bard. Archer says Archer and a Bard is an unlocked option when you have ranked archer. Who says you have to be a Bard at the ending levels? Archer will still be there and will still be a great ranged DD. You are actually getting a sweet deal with this job, because not only will you have an awesome DD, but you'll have a support job to switch to as well for parties if it calls for it.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^ this

(and I sometimes don't agree with you lul)

So many people loved Corsair in XI and he was basically an Archer/Bard who used guns instead of bows.
Why the hate for XIV's bard?
Also these jobs are only the first ones. Yoshi-p already said numerous times that there will be more than one job for each class so dont worry, you will eventually have your DD archer.

The focus on all these battle changes and job implementation is balancing the combat system. Making the archer into a DD class would make no sense.

We have Dragoon, Monk and whatever the marauder becomes to be physical DD.
We have the Black mage to take care of the main ranged damge.
We have the White mage to heal and keep the party alive.
All there is left is a class who can support the party/annoy the enemy and the archer is perfect for it because of it's position. Having a clear view of all the party members and enemys makes targeting easy wich means a bard will be able to use songs when needed and damage the rest of the time.

With time there will surely be other support classes (maybe arcanist) and SE will give Archers a DD job because others will be able to fill that support role in the party.

Another thing, that may simply be an AF weapon, like those all could be. And serve no actual purpose. Though you may need a real one in off hand, who knows.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

So many people loved Corsair in XI and he was basically an Archer/Bard who used guns instead of bows.
Why the hate for XIV's bard?
Also these jobs are only the first ones. Yoshi-p already said numerous times that there will be more than one job for each class so dont worry, you will eventually have your DD archer.

The focus on all these battle changes and job implementation is balancing the combat system. Making the archer into a DD class would make no sense.

We have Dragoon, Monk and whatever the marauder becomes to be physical DD.
We have the Black mage to take care of the main ranged damge.
We have the White mage to heal and keep the party alive.
All there is left is a class who can support the party/annoy the enemy and the archer is perfect for it because of it's position. Having a clear view of all the party members and enemys makes targeting easy wich means a bard will be able to use songs when needed and damage the rest of the time.

With time there will surely be other support classes (maybe arcanist) and SE will give Archers a DD job because others will be able to fill that support role in the party.

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Where is the "Love" button for this post?

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

So many people loved Corsair in XI and he was basically an Archer/Bard who used guns instead of bows.
Why the hate for XIV's bard?
Also these jobs are only the first ones. Yoshi-p already said numerous times that there will be more than one job for each class so dont worry, you will eventually have your DD archer.

The focus on all these battle changes and job implementation is balancing the combat system. Making the archer into a DD class would make no sense.

We have Dragoon, Monk and whatever the marauder becomes to be physical DD.
We have the Black mage to take care of the main ranged damge.
We have the White mage to heal and keep the party alive.
All there is left is a class who can support the party/annoy the enemy and the archer is perfect for it because of it's position. Having a clear view of all the party members and enemys makes targeting easy wich means a bard will be able to use songs when needed and damage the rest of the time.

With time there will surely be other support classes (maybe arcanist) and SE will give Archers a DD job because others will be able to fill that support role in the party.

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Mainly because, in principle, Archer and Bard share no similar function and therefore makes little sense in terms of progression and also because a bard as a job with a new weapon flies in the face of the armory system where weapon specialists are termed classes and not jobs, and also because bard is so "out-there" compared to the root class of archer, and yet WHM and BLM share a common theme with both THM and CON and yet a CON cannot become both a WHM and a BLM.

So it's just ridiculous.

Archer can become some crazy, far fetched, irrelevent class-cum-job which has nothing to do with the preceding class and yet no other class can even progress to a job which closely resembles its original function, i.e., CON will not be able to become BLM, and Gladiator will not be able to become Dark Knight/Berserker/Warrior.

It's crazed.

Crazed I tell you!

And why isn't Bard a class instead of a job if it has a whole new weapon AND ability-set created for it?

It's all screwed up.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

I think the fact that they had to add an ENTIRE NEW WEAPON just to justify the job is proof that it didn't belong.

It's such a worthless elaboration onto Archer class and at the expense of having NO BARD CLASS IN THE FUTURE.

Why can't people see that?

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Well, in FFXI you had the Corsair job which mixed ranged attacks and party support. It worked well enough other than the egregious cost of ammo.

It's not really new ground at all, when you really think about it.

But here's the thing: if Corsairs existed in FFXI without there ever having been Rangers, Bards, anything remotely like them, they'd be the top job in that game. And here we have FFXIV with no other range or support jobs. I have to tell you, all this whining is going to seem silly when the power of this job is fully realized.

It's going to be a sad day IF my archer turns into a banjo playing freak from deliverance. :(

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Primarily DD ranged attacker simply doesn't sit well with the game mechanics. We've seen it with the instances so far.

This is the only logical choice to make. The era of ranged DD's has ended.

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...What about BLM? I think there are ways of balancing around people being able to stand out of range without 'ending the era'. Other games do it relatively well.

Could always make ranged DPS trade off some damage in exchange for the survivability that comes with distance.

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Originally Posted by Alise

They can stay as Archer, and I think they might still do more damage than Monk, and Dragoon, so why they so worry about it? SE doesn't force all to use job.


Altho I wouldn't mind if SE let melee classes do more damage this time round. I think it is silly since the beginning that they make strongest DPS classes using bow lol.

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Exactly. If Archer still does more damage than Monk or Dragoon, why bother bringing them? If anything they're a liability being at close-range, Archer doesn't have that disadvantage AND gets to be better at doing damage.

I'm all for the Bard job though. It lets Archers still do damage (not the same level though) and give buffs. It's more of a ranged support role + decent damage. I mean I'm sure a lot of Archers will feel weird about going from the almighty god of DPS to a Bard but that's just how it's gonna go. Hopefully close-range classes will receive the superior damage and people who want to play a DPS job can just play those.

Edit: It should be noted that the Bard announcement has actually made me want to play Archer more so I'm not just some biased melee user :p

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

I think the fact that they had to add an ENTIRE NEW WEAPON just to justify the job is proof that it didn't belong.

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When auto-attack was released, many people whined that archers would only auto attack with their bare fists.

Now they're being given a weapon they can melee with, and you're complaining?

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Why can't people see that?

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Oh, I can see something. It's very obvious.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Mainly because, in principle, Archer and Bard share no similar function and therefore makes little sense in terms of progression and also because a bard as a job with a new weapon flies in the face of the armory system where weapon specialists are termed classes and not jobs, and also because bard is so "out-there" compared to the root class of archer, and yet WHM and BLM share a common theme with both THM and CON and yet a CON cannot become both a WHM and a BLM.

So it's just ridiculous.

Archer can become some crazy, far fetched, irrelevent class-cum-job which has nothing to do with the preceding class and yet no other class can even progress to a job which closely resembles its original function, i.e., CON will not be able to become BLM, and Gladiator will not be able to become Dark Knight/Berserker/Warrior.

It's crazed.

Crazed I tell you!

And why isn't Bard a class instead of a job if it has a whole new weapon AND ability-set created for it?

It's all screwed up.

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This is why the devs should just stop listening to player feedback and have smaller focus groups among the playerbase for testing and feedback.

You complain that FFXIV is turning into a generic WoW clone, then whenever SE does something the SLIGHTEST BIT UNIQUE, there's Gifthorse to jump all over it with incessant whining.

Not to mention the fact that this is *unverified*. But that's another thing you like to do, eh? Spread misinformation.

You must be having a field day.

EDIT: It isn't a harp. Those are arrows, not strings. Take a closer look.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Those are arrows, not strings. Take a closer look.

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They do look rather arrow-like, don't they. If they are, in fact, arrows, I wonder why they're so small. I don't think they can even be fired from that bow. Look how big the one he's firing is and how far back the cord is pulled - if you put one of those little maybe-arrows into the bow, I don't think you can even pull it back and keep the arrow against it.

EDIT: In the high res image, to me, it looks more like the string is wrapped around the top nub and locked into the bottom - but you could still be right.

Those -strings- are just as much arrows as these: http://www.google.com/imgres?q=cotto...w=1229&bih=612

Rejoyce! Now they sell 99er stacks of arrows at the supermarket!

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

Those -strings- are just as much arrows as these: http://www.google.com/imgres?q=cotto...w=1229&bih=612

Rejoyce! Now they sell 99er stacks of arrows at the supermarket!

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I TAKE THIS WHOLE THREAD BACK, RINSUI IS RIGHT. They do look a lot like swabs. Please join me in my new thread, Doctor Archer and the Death of WHM.

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I TAKE THIS WHOLE THREAD BACK, RINSUI IS RIGHT. They do look a lot like swabs. Please join me in my new thread, Doctor Archer and the Death of WHM.

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YAY!
Updates sure make the forums livelier!