Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

I no longer am instagibbed by magic, nor do I have to get beside or behind an enemy get my dmg boosted.... well, I do NOW, but I'm used to it. But things were much more harsh in 2.0 till they changed all that. Dragoons now have the easiest time with solo content though. Easiest DPS? Not too sure, but one of the most powerful (at least to lone targets) for sure.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I would not mind them adding some differentiating traits to the attacks - just something that gives Wheeling Thrust and Fang and Claw some individuality form each other rather than just positional requirements. However I'm currently unsure what that would be.

The RNG factor of this makes balancing against two non-identical skills difficult, but I would rather not remove the RNG element of it. Perhaps a small HP refund on Wheeling Thrust or some sort of very minor buff that would be appreciated, but not bemoaned that it's random.

But over all I don't bemoan the desire to make these skills more individual. A low priority change to be sure.

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The easy answer is to remove the RNG factor. Just let WT and FC proc of either FT or CT. Give each of them a different effect however, so that as a player, YOU can choose which ability to use.

For me, this would be infinitely better.

You're changing it from:

"Great random proc ability. Which one is it?"

to

"OK, what do I need given the situation? Effect X? OK, I go to rear and do WT. Effect Y better for this scenario? Great I flank and hit FC".

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

The easy answer is to remove the RNG factor. Just let WT and FC proc of either FT or CT. Give each of them a different effect however, so that as a player, YOU can choose which ability to use.

For me, this would be infinitely better.

You're changing it from:

"Great random proc ability. Which one is it?"

to

"OK, what do I need given the situation? Effect X? OK, I go to rear and do WT. Effect Y better for this scenario? Great I flank and hit FC".

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I actually really like this idea. Don't even have to give them extra effects. Just have both proc and let me decide which one i want to use.

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

To my point though, why change the 56 skill to 50% just to make the 58 quest feel like a reward when at the end of the day you'll just move on and stop caring. All it would do is hurt you when you lvl sync.

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Well the point is, it wouldn't feel that way if the game launched with it being a 50% proc to begin with.

Lv54 -- gain stance, 30% boost to Jump

Lv56 -- 30% boost to jump, 50% chance of gaining extra 290 potency combo that extends

Lv58 -- 30% boost to jump, 100% chance of extra 290 potency combo to extend



At the moment, it's

Lv54 -- gain stance, 30% boost to Jump

Lv56 -- 30% boost to jump, 100% chance of extra 290 potency combo

Lv58 -- Extra Difficulty on stance


Right now, it's almost as if...you were Black Mage, and you got Firestarter the same level you got Fire III. Of course it would feel absolutely silly to have Fire III without Firestarter in that situation, because of how much better it is. And yes, it very much sucks to be sync'd under level 44 on Black Mage after you've tasted it.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

How about changing the effect at level 56 such that you only have a 50% chance of getting the buff that unlocks the skill and if you don't get the buff, then BotD will just run out of time and fall off. Then at 58 you'll always get one buff or the other; you're now rewarded with always getting a means of extending BotD.

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Honestly, if this is how it worked, I would be all for the 58 skill and imo, it SHOULD work like that if nothing else. All that's being said here is there is no real incentive to getting the 58 skill, it just gimps a play style as oppose to boost.

Honestly, I don't see how it wasn't setup like this to begin with.

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Originally Posted by PyroElf

Honestly, if this is how it worked, I would be all for the 58 skill and imo, it SHOULD work like that if nothing else. All that's being said here is there is no real incentive to getting the 58 skill, it just gimps a play style as oppose to boost.

Honestly, I don't see how it wasn't setup like this to begin with.

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It probably was. What I was saying was, all indications seem to point to that conclusion. It must just be a bug.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Well the point is, it wouldn't feel that way if the game launched with it being a 50% proc to begin with.

-snip-

Right now, it's almost as if...you were Black Mage, and you got Firestarter the same level you got Fire III. Of course it would feel absolutely silly to have Fire III without Firestarter in that situation, because of how much better it is. And yes, it very much sucks to be sync'd under level 44 on Black Mage after you've tasted it.

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I agree with you. Had it launcher that way, this thread wouldn't exist. It would work the way it worked and we would deal with it. Be it a bug or design, that is not what we were given. As it stands though, if I'm asked if I'd rather have 100% or 50% chance at 56-57, my choice would be obvious, because I'd rather not be beholden to RNG for my DPS. Missing a positional is at least something I can control.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

It probably was. What I was saying was, all indications seem to point to that conclusion. It must just be a bug.

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Ya know, I honestly wouldn't mind that and imo, it would technically be balancing our class rather than nerfing and giving an actual incentive to learning it at 58. As it stands, I probably won't get it until after 60.

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Originally Posted by PyroElf

Ya know, I honestly wouldn't mind that and imo, it would technically be balancing our class rather than nerfing and giving an actual incentive to learning it at 58. As it stands, I probably won't get it until after 60.

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At the very least I would urge you to get the skill at 58 only so you can start practicing sooner rather than later.

Well unless you plan on making 2 dragoons, you might as well push on to 58 and get ahead of the curve lolol

What about our 60 ability, that seems pretty weak imo, either reduce the time reduction to 5 seconds or make it stronger then 200 potency

Gotta say the whole concept of Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust is ridiculous. The only difference is that you either have to attack from the rear or the flank depending on Mr. Random.

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Originally Posted by sfxsigma

OP is right: obtaining Wheeling Thrust at 58 breaks the expectation that you're getting stronger/learning new techniques/attuning with your job crystal soul. When you, the player, realize that the game just made your skill usage more complex but not more powerful, you feel slighted by the game and whoever designed the skill/quest..

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So if Dragoons got slighted / ohh the humanity over 1 skill not being golden/good. What about machinist ;n;
Machinist currently gets 5/7 abilities that are useless starting from 50 they are: Dismantle, Gauss Barrel (doesn't increase damage (decreases damage)) Gauss round (locked behind gauss barrel), Rend Mind, and Ricochet (also locked behind gauss barrel). Also level 30 to 50 there's plenty of other useless skills. As well as more rng.
But yeah.. sympathy hugs!

I thought these abilities would be just be a proper 4th chain to both combos. The idea that it's randomized in some way feels really annoying.

And what's worse is that apparently their potency is lower than Full Thrust, and only slightly higher than Chaos Thrust minus the DoT? How is that even a satisfying conclusion to a combo?

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Originally Posted by Trespar

I thought these abilities would be just be a proper 4th chain to both combos. The idea that it's randomized in some way feels really annoying.

And what's worse is that apparently their potency is lower than Full Thrust, and only slightly higher than Chaos Thrust minus the DoT? How is that even a satisfying conclusion to a combo?

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Because it's an additional 290 potency. For the 360 petency you have to use 2 weaker skills until you can use it again. It also extend BotD which is also a great DPS boost due to the faster auto attacks.

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Originally Posted by Trespar

I thought these abilities would be just be a proper 4th chain to both combos. The idea that it's randomized in some way feels really annoying.

And what's worse is that apparently their potency is lower than Full Thrust, and only slightly higher than Chaos Thrust minus the DoT? How is that even a satisfying conclusion to a combo?

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Well, as long as the potency for those additional skills are above 260, it's a PPS increase.

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Originally Posted by Galand

What about our 60 ability, that seems pretty weak imo, either reduce the time reduction to 5 seconds or make it stronger then 200 potency

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It reduces our Dragon Blood by 10 seconds on each use and as an Off GCD That functions like doomspike, I'm actually very impressed with it so far.

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Originally Posted by Vinestra

So if Dragoons got slighted / ohh the humanity over 1 skill not being golden/good. What about machinist ;n;
Machinist currently gets 5/7 abilities that are useless starting from 50 they are: Dismantle, Gauss Barrel (doesn't increase damage (decreases damage)) Gauss round (locked behind gauss barrel), Rend Mind, and Ricochet (also locked behind gauss barrel). Also level 30 to 50 there's plenty of other useless skills. As well as more rng.
But yeah.. sympathy hugs!

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Ikr, it must be so tough being able to pull over 1k dps.

Not like MCH and BRD's have been given nothing even remotely useful in the skillsets, but damn the one Dragoon skill much be such a chore to use and requires nearly 100 responses signaling how much priority this injustice must be given...

Being able to pull 1k+ dps have have party wide boosts must be such a pain...

Yeah I've never liked a lot Dragoon players for their whole "woe is me" mentality that has been around since release -_-

I thought I would take a moment to offer my experience with both abilities and my thoughts on them and other things.

At first, I was completely terrified of getting them, and thought a RNG Factor would completely destroy the class for me. I even considered dropping my Dragoon entirely for a different Job. This was due to reading so many negative things about "Wheeling Thrust" and "Fang and Claw", about how they proc randomly and can completely screw up your rotation. Never knowing if you need to be behind or at the side.

But then I got to Level 56 and got the first of the two dreaded skills. "Fang and Claw". Having it proc after every combo, I was able to easily be in position to perform it for full potency. I quickly grew used to it, always moving to the side after a combo finished to be ready before the Global Cool-down refreshed.

Two levels later, I obtained "Wheeling Thrust", and dreaded the RNG Factor that would undoubtedly show its face. I went into a dungeon tentatively, worried that my entire rotation would be just a massive mess of frustration. I finished my first combo, "Fang and Claw" popped. I got into position before the Global Cool-down finished. I finished my next combo, "Wheeling Thrust" popped. I got into position before the Global Cool-down finished.

At first, I thought perhaps what I had read was wrong and that they simply alternated between the two. But then I got two "Wheeling Thrust"s in a row. Then three in a row. It threw me off for a bit, but the length of the Global Cool-down and the duration of the combo effect that enables "Wheeling Thrust" and "Fang and Claw" allowed me ample time to compensate and re-position without dropping my damage output.

I will readily admit that I have missed a few positionals due to enemies moving, but I see even the lower potency as an increase in damage output over what I had at Level 50 through 54. Even at 56 with just "Fang and Claw", you are not guaranteed the increased potency. The enemy could turn at the wrong time, or the Tank could be re-positioning it. Level 58 adds another layer of complexity, admittedly, but it is still another guaranteed increase in damage regardless of whether you are in the correct position.

"Blood of the Dragon" boosts your damage output by enabling the usage of "Wheeling Thrust", "Fang and Claw", and "Geirskogul", and can be indefinitely maintained via "Wheeling Thrust" and "Fang and Claw" whether or not you are in the correct position for those two abilities. As such, while it may seem like a decrease in damage output due to missing the positional, it is still an increase due to maintaining "Blood of the Dragon". So long as you keep that ability up, you can still use the three new abilities. You can still increase your damage output beyond what you had at 50-54.

In this way, "Wheeling Thrust" and "Fang and Claw" are increases to damage output regardless of their own potency. Hitting the correct positional is quite nice, yes, but missing it is not detrimental to the overall rotation. So long as you can maintain "Blood of the Dragon", everything will be fine. The randomized nature of "Wheeling Thrust" and "Fang and Claw" does add a layer of complexity to the class, but the Global Cool-down and combo effect allow ample time to re-position for maximum potency, unless you have incorrectly managed your "Blood of the Dragon" or utilized "Geirskogul" too rapidly in succession.

I am now sitting at Level 60, and am fully comfortable with the new abilities. My rotation works as smoothly as it did when it was Level 50. I realize not everyone will attain comfort with the new abilities and integrating them into their rotation due to the randomized nature of two of them, but I personally do not have any issues due to the explanations above.

Too Long; Did Not Read Version:

Global Cool-down and Combo Effect Timer offer enough time to re-position for full potency.

Increase in damage output regardless of full potency.

Both abilities maintain "Blood of the Dragon" buff with or without positional correctness.

To those saying Dragoon does not have positionals, keep in mind "Chaos Thrust" has increased potency from behind and "Heavy Thrust" has increased potency from the flank/side. Additionally, "Ring of Thorns" will only proc if "Heavy Thrust" is landed from the flank/side.

"Wheeling Thrust" and "Fang and Claw" add a layer of complexity that I personally find enjoyable.

<silly> My Lance fires dragons. Bows fire arrows. Your move, Bards. </silly>

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Ikr, it must be so tough being able to pull over 1k dps.

Not like MCH and BRD's have been given nothing even remotely useful in the skillsets, but damn the one Dragoon skill much be such a chore to use and requires nearly 100 responses signaling how much priority this injustice must be given...

Being able to pull 1k+ dps have have party wide boosts must be such a pain...

Yeah I've never liked a lot Dragoon players for their whole "woe is me" mentality that has been around since release -_-

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I can only see pessimism from these posts. Isn´t MCH and BRDs role as a dps a bit different considering some of the skills they have

Anyways for my part I don´t care about the dps, it´s just the fact that we now have to rely on a random factor which makes the job less fun for me at least.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

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I'll never understand what motivates people like you to come into other threads, and tell us how our issues don't matter and you have it worse. I agree wholly that machinists have far bigger problems than the wheeling thrust issue brought up in this thread. but that's exactly the point. This isn't the machinist thread, so you're doing nothing useful here. Shame on players who project their issues onto others like this.

Anyway, the problem wouldn't even exist if we got Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust at the same time. It's because you start with one, and then gain the second which strictly adds no power and only the potential for mistakes, that there is a problem at all. They should either be learned at the same time, or one should be differentiated from the other in a way that isn't strictly positional RNG with no benefits. That's it.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Ikr, it must be so tough being able to pull over 1k dps.

Not like MCH and BRD's have been given nothing even remotely useful in the skillsets, but damn the one Dragoon skill much be such a chore to use and requires nearly 100 responses signaling how much priority this injustice must be given...

Being able to pull 1k+ dps have have party wide boosts must be such a pain...

Yeah I've never liked a lot Dragoon players for their whole "woe is me" mentality that has been around since release -_-

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You'll never see a DRG do much over 1k dps with the current gear in a real fight unless they are very good, simply due to the fact that you can't keep the combo going very well in a hard fight.

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Originally Posted by Whymes

You'll never see a DRG do much over 1k dps with the current gear in a real fight unless they are very good, simply due to the fact that you can't keep the combo going very well in a hard fight.

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Untrue, although...it takes a lot of skill, timing and luck with mob not turning. I've heard of DRGs doing 1100 DPS in Bismarck EX

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It also extend BotD which is also a great DPS boost due to the faster auto attacks.

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The basic buff of BoTD gives is +30% potency to Jump and Spineshatter Dive. Aside from that, it enables the use of WT/F&C/Geirskogul. Does nothing to increase autoattacks.

The positionals aren't bad at all. You get used to them pretty quickly. What you won't get used to is BotD constantly falling off because a mechanic happened right when you got the proc or right after popping Geirskogul. You're up in arms about the wrong thing xD

Even the above is something you'll get accustomed to when you know the fights better. Fights I couldn't keep BotD up on as a fresh 60 I'm now maintaining it with no problem. Am I on the edge of my seat clutching my controller for dear life the entire time, you betcha. Is it impossible? Nah. At least until you get to Ravana Ex D:

so nice if they will buff drg haha

Why did they carbon copy Fang and Claw into Wheeling Thrust and throw a negative mechanic on it?

It's good to see this thread. I've really never seen such poor, backwards design in any MMORPG, possibly any video game really. I've played horribly imbalanced video games where acquiring certain skills gives you almost no benefit, but I've never played an MMORPG where you're actually punished for learning a new skill.

Although probably not the best solution, my band-aid fix would be almost exactly what SpecialKK said:
Allow a one-time use of either weaponskill, but ALSO change Wheeling Thrust to do its damage from the front. This way you have something to use while solo that isn't such a pain to use, plus maybe in the future there'll be fights where we have to split cleave damage in front of an enemy.

Geirskogul is also a little bit stupid mechanically. 200 Potency every 10 seconds is not a ton of damage given the risk in the duration reduction. Potency should be increased to 230 and duration reduction should be reduced to 6s, in my opinion. I'm not advocating for DRG to be overpowered with this.

It breaks my heart to analyze FFXIV gameplay like I would WoW because FFXIV should be about enjoying the awesome and wonderful visuals, environments, and stories. Sure, once in a while FFXIV gets as technical as WoW with some boss fights, but that's the exception. I moved from WoW to get away from doing technical analysis all the time, but such blatantly broken design just can't be ignored.

P.S.
I know this isn't the thread for it, but this is as stupid as Fracture. I don't know why they haven't done anything to fix the uselessness of that skill too.

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Originally Posted by Galand

What about our 60 ability, that seems pretty weak imo, either reduce the time reduction to 5 seconds or make it stronger then 200 potency

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what? geirskogul is awesome!!
its like spammable howling fist. combine that with doomspike and dragonfire dive, DRG aoe is absolutely insane now

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Originally Posted by Galand

What about our 60 ability, that seems pretty weak imo, either reduce the time reduction to 5 seconds or make it stronger then 200 potency

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Even without the Lv60 ability DRG has a lot of power as it is right now. The fact that you have an OFF GLOBAL attack that's 200 potency (that's 50 less than Dragon Fire Dive that which has 120 second cool down) has a small cool down, make it a very powerful move.

The fact that it subtracts 10 seconds off Blood of the Dragon helps regulate that power. If you could spam it after every 4th rotation that would be way too powerful, and way too easy. This forces you to keep track of how much time you have left and makes you question, "Can I spend this ability and still refresh Blood in time? Or should I wait for another rotation?"

Dragoons didn't have this complexity before unlike other dps, so now you have this element to test your skill.

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

what? geirskogul is awesome!!
its like spammable howling fist. combine that with doomspike and dragonfire dive, DRG aoe is absolutely insane now

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its not spammable we need to use at least 2 full combo's per use or risk loseing the buff , doomspike costs 160 tp a shot and dragonfire dive has 120 recast time all in all our aoe is a best underwelming and at worst useing tp we could be killing one target at a time

Yeah, people see the burst AoE Dragoon does which is great for dungeons, but for any somewhat long fight that demands AoE, every TP user basically isn't allowed to do any serious AoE damage compared to casters, but that could be intentional as the tradeoff for higher single target damage, who knows. For that matter, I also think Dragonfire Dive is too weak for its cooldown. It should either be increased to 300 or have the cooldown reduced to 80 secs to match Blood for Blood. In general, the relationship of potencies between multiple weaponskills and abilities is feeling a little weird, but it makes sense overall.

Anyway, to expand on what I said earlier, that was just a band-aid fix for Wheeling Thrust. A long-term fix that I would like to see would look like this:

- Chaos Thrust and Full Thrust always combo into Fang and Claw while under Blood of the Dragon.
- Fang and Claw non-flank potency increased to 230.
- Fang and Claw has a 60% chance to combo into Wheeling Thrust.
- Wheeling Thrust potency increased to 500 regardless of position. Does not extend Blood of the Dragon.

Now yes, 500 potency looks overpowered, but keep in mind that it would only be executable 60% of the time and only after a long combo. Thus it would be more like a 300 potency attack, nearly identical to the 290 potency from the rear we have now. Little would actually change in DPS overall, but this would at least have the potential to feel awesome. That said, having a random combo skill could be extremely frustrating unlike Firestarter. I'm not sure.

Oh, and another addition to only the band-aid fix: Just make Chaos Thrust transform into Wheeling Thrust and Full Thrust transform into Fang and Claw when active, just like Ninjitsu does now. I know, I know. I can see the slippery slope arguments now: "Why not make every weaponskill transform into the next one in its combo sequence?" But I think these abilities are different because of their combined positionals and prerequisites.

Again, this isn't about making DRG overpowered but just about making the relationship between weaponskills feel fun and cool. If this would make DRG too powerful, then other Jobs' damage should be increased to match.

Btw, why are the tooltips all messed up? They must be artifacts from some beta version. In Blood of the Dragon's, it says, "effects end upon reuse," but there's nothing to reuse, and casting Blood of the Dragon again doesn't cancel any buffs. The buffs are called Sharper Fang and Claw & Enhanced Wheeling Thrust, and their tooltips say, "Able to execute an enhanced form of [skillname]." But these weaponskills can only be executed with that buff, so all of this makes no sense now. They really need to take another look at the new Dragoon abilities.

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

Even without the Lv60 ability DRG has a lot of power as it is right now. The fact that you have an OFF GLOBAL attack that's 200 potency (that's 50 less than Dragon Fire Dive that which has 120 second cool down) has a small cool down, make it a very powerful move.

The fact that it subtracts 10 seconds off Blood of the Dragon helps regulate that power. If you could spam it after every 4th rotation that would be way too powerful, and way too easy. This forces you to keep track of how much time you have left and makes you question, "Can I spend this ability and still refresh Blood in time? Or should I wait for another rotation?"

Dragoons didn't have this complexity before unlike other dps, so now you have this element to test your skill.

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i think to be more exact he is comparing it to the other level 60 skills the other jobs get were it is very weak compared to most of them

Basically it means this. Say you have 3 seconds left on BotD on and you just used Chaos Thrust, granting you 10 seconds of "Enhanced Wheeling Thrust" (meaning Wheeling Thrust is available), but the target is running away. Since you have 3s left on BotD but 9 seconds or so to still land your WT, you pop a fresh BoTD , thinking it'll give you +15 seconds, allowing you plenty of time to hit your Wheeling Thrust proc. Unfortunately, "effect ends upon reuse", so using BotD removes your "Enhanced Wheeling Thrust" thereby cancelling your proc regardless of duration. Reuse definitely cancels those buffs, I've tried it before when my timer was about to run out.

Oh. I had never done that. That seems really weird, and I don't think it should be like that, but thank you for explaining that part. And now that I think more about it, Geirskogul's potency and cooldown is probably fine, but I still think its duration reduction should be -6s.

When these abilities were announced, I thought that one would proc from Full Thrust and one would proc from Chaos Thrust. The randomness was a surprise, but I'm not overly bothered by it now that I'm used to it.

Something else I've noticed though (but perhaps I'm just seeing things or messing up my abilities) is that if you pop BotD and then extremely quickly do a Chaos Thrust, the 4ths won't proc at all. Incredibly annoying when it happens, but I've only been caught with it three-four times.

That's what I thought, but that would still make one or the other completely useless unfortunately, but it would still be better than what we have.

The 100 non-positional potency is the worst offender right now. It's completely inexcusable for a positional bonus to be 190 Potency given how the game engine works. We actually lose more overall DPS from using it and "missing" than if we just don't use it. That is very, very wrong. Every other positional ability in the game has some effect that makes it an overall net gain and therefore worth using regardless of position bonus.

At the very least, both Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust's base potencies must be increased to 220-230 even if they don't change anything else.

Edit: Bards got a response about their perceived complaints: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3090840 So I have confidence yet that they are paying attention to Dragoon.

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Originally Posted by Teiren

It's completely inexcusable for a positional bonus to be 190 Potency given how the game engine works. We actually lose more overall DPS from using it and "missing" than if we just don't use it. That is very, very wrong.

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Not strictly true, as they allow us to keep up BotD which not only boosts Jump and Spineshatter Dive to 260 and 221 potency respectively but also affords us three Geirskoguls per minute which is another 200 potency move which we couldn't access consistently if we "just don't use it".

It's odd that they have two skills to do basically the same thing for the sake of complexity but positional bonuses should be important if you ask me. It might actually make more people interested in them, as many players seem to completely ignore the positionals on HT and CT.

Been playing around with f n c and wt - its not difficult *at all*.

But I agree its weird that they do the same thing - at least have diff debuffs or smth

I put both Fang & Claw and Wheeling Thrust in a macro that casts both of them and only have the skill icons enlarged on a separate bar so I have an indicator of which one is up.
The fact that you can put both skills in the same macro button alone already shows that the skill design of those two skills is weird.

Im not having problems using them, it's just weird that you can almost completely remove the (input-)randomness with the use of a macro.