How is BLM in new expansion?

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Originally Posted by Picori

Raids haven't even came out yet and bis gear so hard to say who is on top.
At 56 just getting any gear I can get. I'm like "oh level 56 gear!" Not even looking if its spell speed or what.
At end game when people start getting the right gears and see how raid fights are then let the bitching start. To early right now.

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It's true, we're basically at the stage in the game in 2.0 where BLMs saw Titan and probably thought T1-5 would be a bitch and SMN OP. Unfortunately I'm confident the Enochian tools won't match any form of Savage mode mechanics they've shown thus far, an area where SMN always did well even post-BLM buffs.

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Originally Posted by Vallhallix

I'm gonna stick with it, we'll be buffed again and SMN nerfed in no time. The pros outweigh the cons for me tbh. I can't go back to controlling a pet, I just can't that's one thing I do not miss.

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I'd prefer no more "Ok we will buff you but break xx class" mentality SE has notoriously followed since the beginning.

There are times where you can have your cake and eat it too.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Most of it does not have spell speed.. which I consider another nerf. My SS dropped from 620 to 576 with this new set of garbage.

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At level 60 the effectiveness of spell speed per point is basically cut by about two thirds anyway (dunno about other off stats but I assume their equally as ineffective at this early stage).

For instance my GCD with my old lv50 set went from 2.19 at lv50 to 2.39 at lv60.

I knew I wasn't going crazy about that. So he want us to die trying to pull off new rotations, AND be the slowest casters in history. Awesome man.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

I knew I wasn't going crazy about that. So he want us to die trying to pull off new rotations, AND be the slowest casters in history. Awesome man.

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Don't forget that even the best armor atm ingame is still crap compared to the ones we had. The iLv180 Armor are equal to the Darklight set from 2.0. Ofc they had to fix the effectivenes of SS, or we would have casttimes of <1sec at the end with endgame Alexander sets. We will get our casttimes back later with better gear which is equal to Dreadwyrm.

My problems with Enochian and current BLM design:

- Pressing Enochian while the Enochian buff is still on negatively impacts your Enochian buff timer and locks you out of your skills. For instance, pressing Enochian at 1 or 2 second left on the buff, will then "refresh" your buff to 5 or 10 seconds and return on cooldown for the full 60 secs. This effectively locks you out of your major damage dealer, Fire IV, for almost a full minute just because you pressed what's suppose to be a beneficial buff that unlocks your skills for use even 1 second too early.

- Your cast of Blizzard IV or Fire IV will forcibly CANCEL mid cast if either Enochian or Umbral/Astral happen to fade before your cast finishes. This is bad design. It's especially awful considering that Blizzard IV is mandatory in refreshing the Enochian buff in the first place.

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- The Astral/Umbral buffs are much too short to be used as baseline requirements in BOTH the casting of Fire IV/Blizzard IV AND for refreshing Enochian. Both our major damage dealer and our buff maintenance are tied into the same 10 second window. This is not enough time to account for the myriad of raid possibilities and results in overly punishing gameplay when those inevitable mechanics occur. It's even more egregious when half of your window is already committed to fulfilling the hard casting of 2 spells and their gcds in order to just refresh Enochian. This alone leaves little other time for any mistakes or mechanics.

- No room for creativity or other spell casts due to the forced restrictiveness of Enochian and Astral/Umbral timers. The way the timers work out, there's an extremely strict cycle in which you can deal damage and maintain your buff. This leaves little to no room for any other spells or utility without risking possible downtime.

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Originally Posted by Ellsian

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I certainly agree with much of what you said, some things I think maybe you'll think different after longer with 60 BLM perhaps.

That said, the being able to cast B4 and then having it cancel is complete nonsense. Can't tell you how many times I've gone into UI3 with 4s left on the timer because of ONE mechanic that occured late that rotation and I am forced to drop Enochian unless I have Swiftcast. It should be like B3/F3 where the start of the cast dictates the rest of the cast.

yea i find my self saving swiftcast now for bliz 4 and transpose to get into ice mode quickly when shit goes crazy on the arena so i dont loose my buff LOL which means i'm in astral fire alot less now, cuz i'll force a switch to keep up enhochian when i'm bout to do some dancing

Thundercloud is also awkward now. Is it even good? It feels worse than just casting Fire now. Fire is a GCD for 180*1.8 = 324 potency that also refreshes Astral Fire and has a 40% chance to give you the ability to- at no mana cost- throw out a 240*1.8=432 potency spell at the cost of a GCD that ALSO refreshes Astral Fire. Thundercloud only brings refreshing thunder to the table and Thunder is probably going to last you until you cast it next anyway.

What do you do when you go Fire 3->Fire IV and then see the Thundercloud proc? Using it immediately means You're looking at 4 seconds left on Astral Fire so you have to Fire afterwards, so it just took Fire IV's slot (you're down 108 potency). Any usage of Thundercloud needs to either 1) Take advantage of the extra DoT ticks or 2) Let you get that Fire IV you replaced in. Which means you're going to spend 3+3+2.5 seconds not casting Fire. Cutting it close.

But if you ignore the proc, is using Thunder during Umbral Ice even good?

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Originally Posted by Xenitan

Thundercloud is also awkward now. Is it even good? It feels worse than just casting Fire now. Fire is a GCD for 180*1.8 = 324 potency that also refreshes Astral Fire and has a 40% chance to give you the ability to- at no mana cost- throw out a 240*1.8=432 potency spell at the cost of a GCD that ALSO refreshes Astral Fire. Thundercloud only brings refreshing thunder to the table and Thunder is probably going to last you until you cast it next anyway.

What do you do when you go Fire 3->Fire IV and then see the Thundercloud proc? Using it immediately means You're looking at 4 seconds left on Astral Fire so you have to Fire afterwards, so it just took Fire IV's slot (you're down 108 potency). Any usage of Thundercloud needs to either 1) Take advantage of the extra DoT ticks or 2) Let you get that Fire IV you replaced in. Which means you're going to spend 3+3+2.5 seconds not casting Fire. Cutting it close.

But if you ignore the proc, is using Thunder during Umbral Ice even good?

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Thundercloud can generally only be used in rotation 1 of Enochian, and that doesn't include your opener because most openers are limited to the amount of GCDs you can even do. Rotation 2 you can do a Thundercloud if and usually only if you didn't use a Thunder after B4, which means ... you won't even get a Thundercloud. Rotation 3 you have zero time for procs until Enochian wears off.

Thunder is right now in the category of filler only. You use it for MP ticks, nothing more, and if you have the opportunity to skip using it you should do so.

I've been playing black mage for a very long time now and i can say i am not happy with the changes they made to black mage.
Enochian is the culprit. While it does allow you do deal crazy damage, it's also the problem about black mage right now. We're basically a stationary monk with 2 greased lightnings to keep up, that's just awful given the cast times and heavy movement in endgame content. Also for thundercloud i've found very few moments to use the skill cause
1) enochian is about to run out
2) why use thundercloud when you can use fire IV which deals more damage?
3) astral fire/umbral ice is about to run out

I'm very sad about the blm changes and i hope they'd just make enochian a stance like bard's minuet and perhaps nerf some of the IV numbers to balance that. The skill cap for current black mages is just skyhigh. Black mage just feels like rocket science now given you have to watch 2 timers while trying to reduce movement as much as possible.

Agreed. As soon as I refresh Enochian with a B4, I wanna get back into Astral and start spamming F4 with the time I have left. Leaving Thunder & thundercloud procs to go unnoticed unless I'm locked out of Enochian.

Not to be off topic, but is anyone else getting stuck in a running animation when trying to move and cast F3. Not sure if its my whacky internet connection or some sort of bug anyone else is experiencing.

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Originally Posted by Bambam

Not to be off topic, but is anyone else getting stuck in a running animation when trying to move and cast F3. Not sure if its my whacky internet connection or some sort of bug anyone else is experiencing.

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Yes.. I thought it was just me experiencing that. And not just being stuck in the running animation, sometimes I can't even move or do anything.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Thunder is right now in the category of filler only. You use it for MP ticks, nothing more, and if you have the opportunity to skip using it you should do so.

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Thundercloud can be a nuisance sometimes. When I get a proc and I used B4 and still have a long time and my dot has 8 seconds... I just B1 lol

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Originally Posted by Sayori

I've been playing black mage for a very long time now and i We're basically a stationary monk with 2 greased lightnings to keep up, that's just awful given the cast times and heavy movement in endgame content.

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If only we had Monk DPS.

The timings of Enochian and Astral Fire/Umbral Ice are too long (considering the 3 second cast time of F4/B4).

I like the idea of it, but they've messed up the raw numbers and the timings. There's no reason to go BLM over SMN right now, and if its purely single target and no "Magic only" mechanics, just go 3 x Melee.

I have a DRG friend who complaints about DRG has a Greased Lightning now then I said to him BLM has 2 Greased Lightning now xD
They should make Fire IV/Bliz IV has BotD mechanic, like increasing AF/UI duration by 3s (even 2s is more than enough)

At least you can use the Thundercloud proc when you have to move, if nothing else.

Im 60 blm... Although I understand everyone's complaints. I have no problems. I run ley lines and enoch... then the f4> bliz3> b4...etc rotation. At first running new dungeons I hesitated. But now im familiar with them, with a few exceptions on some bosses. I don't move much. And do major dmg. I still use f3 for aoe instances with flare. Eventhough not as powerful as before, can't dismiss that it works. I like my blm, and will continue.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

At least you can use the Thundercloud proc when you have to move, if nothing else.

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Good luck keeping up Enochain and Astral Fire when using Thundercloud procs. Using them in Astral Fire can actively punish your dps as you have to revert to a single F4, before refreshing astral fire, rather than two.

Black Mage is fine they just have to learn to deal with mechanic. This reminds me of T6 where the Black Mage potency was 10% potency higher than the Summoner and SE buffed them as an over reaction becuase movement affected there damage. I think Black Mages just want to deal hard hitting damge without any cost. A lot of jobs have built in weaknesses as Summoner can't spam there hard hitting abilitie without having DoTs up and going into Dreadwrym Trance which require Aetherflow thats on a 60s cool down. Black Mages hard hitting abilities are for the most part spammable they don't have internal weaknesses so they have an outside weakness where movement affects there dps. Black Mage already has 20% more single target potency than the Summoner any more and it'll obliterate the Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Black Mage is fine they just have to learn to deal with mechanic.

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Level BLM to 60 then talk.

And BLM doesn't have 20% more single target potency than Summoner. SE buffing them way back when wasn't an over-reaction, as they still weren't as good as a Melee at Single target. The issue back then was Summoner Mana issues which was more noticeable in longer fights.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

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This whole post can summed up with *I have no idea what im talking about but i will comment about blm anyway*

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Originally Posted by hallena

This whole post can summed up with *I have no idea what im talking about but i will comment about blm anyway*

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That's not actually true. Now at first I was pretty much disgusted by what happened to BLM in 3.0, but I've been playing non-stop for the last week and I must say officially that BLM is currently in a decent spot. Sure, adjustments will be made. If it was me, I'd probably make two minor adjustments. I'd extend Astral Fire to 13 seconds instead of 10. This would allow us a little more freedom to move out of an aoe without completely losing a GCD. And Second, I'd probably shorten the Blizz IV Cast time to 2 seconds.These are very minor and wouldn't change anything with our 3.0 rotation. The job would still play as SE intended, only it would allow us a little more freedom with movement.

Now with that being said, I'm currently i170 and averaging between 800 and 900 DPS on every single boss fight in the level 60 dungeons and 1100 on dummies. You just have to practice and learn the most effective way to utilize every single tool you have been given. AM, Swiftcast, Sharpcast, Manaward, Manawall all are vital. When you cast Ley Lines, immediately move to the very edge of the circle. If you're targeted by an aoe under your feet, 90% of the time you'll still have room in your Ley Lines to move to the other edge. If a mechanic forces your enochian to fall off before expected, immediately switch to 2.0 rotation and don't panic. I'm still hitting Fire 1 crits for 3.1k and Firestarter crits for 4.3k. If you don't freak out when something causes your rotation to get screwed up and can make the transition smoothly, you can still maintain high dps until your enochian is ready.

I've not yet seen a single DPS out parse me in a dungeon. Granted, I'm not saying they can't and I've slightly out geared the ones who have come close. My only point is its not "The Sky is Falling" for BLM right now. At first I was annoyed, but I dusted it off and told myself its time to get good. Sure, some won't have any desire to dedicate the time to adjust to this new playstyle. I'm only saying its possible

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Originally Posted by Garotte14

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bismarck extreme is usualy where it start getting extremely annoying.
With tornadoes
Aoes
Stuns from bismarck
Movement when weather change
If fights like these is what SE plan for alexander, there is no way anyone would bring a blm over smn

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Originally Posted by hallena

If fights like these is what SE plan for alexander, there is no way anyone would bring a blm over smn

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That's the main thing that worries me. For BLM, I have no doubt it is currently viable, it's honestly not too bad in any 3.0 content (I dare say Neverreap bosses are more annoying than Bismark or Ravana EX). That said SMN is gonna wipe the floor with BLM, especially when it's actual progression and DPS checks/enrages are a thing with a lot of mechanics.

Heck, BLM I bet could keep up with SMN if you really practiced in an environment with some mechanics. Do you want to practice for hours trying to get to that point when SMN can do it better the first try and on?

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Do you want to practice for hours trying to get to that point when SMN can do it better the first try and on?

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Yes, because some people find BLM more fun than SMN and the game isn't all about min/maxing for first clears...

Sleigh that's honestly how i feel about it too. I'm currently in the process of re-leveling summoner and going into 2.2 mode where I play both and compare and contrast alot. Here are by FAR the most annoying rage inducing things ever on blm atm:

1. Co-dps kills whatever you are targeting blizz 4 on. This happens in ravana ex some ... makes me want to punch kittens, because it makes you a 2.x blm for 15-30 seconds

2. the blizzard rng tick of doom and most blms know what im talking about here - basically you throw blizz 3 and it happened JUST after the server tick, this will murder you if it happens on fire chain 2

3. invulnerability/jump mechanics are very unforgiving

The job feels so good when everything goes perfect, feels like a dream... however it is literally a train wreck when one bad thing happens. Very polarizing

Summoner isn't going to wipe the floor with Black Mage anytime soon unless its against a crappy Black Mage that doesn't know their job. A good Summoner will do 1100 Damage in 3min while a Black Mage does 1300 damage in 2min in a turret fight.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Summoner isn't going to wipe the floor with Black Mage anytime soon unless its against a crappy Black Mage that doesn't know their job. A good Summoner will do 1100 Damage in 3min while a Black Mage does 1300 damage in 2min in a turret fight.

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For one thing, the DPS difference is almost non-existent as far as we've tested. But more importantly, what turret fight? Savage content hasn't been known for turreting ...

Also, it's not just turreting/moving that's annoying/detrimental to the rotation. It's phase shifts and invincibility, something we didn't have to deal with before. Even something disappearing for 10s is enough to make us cry foul.

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Originally Posted by hallena

This whole post can summed up with *I have no idea what im talking about but i will comment about blm anyway*

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Pretty much. Akiza has always had a bias against BLMs. Thought the name looked familiar. Now I remember why.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ing-Black-Mage

When they do make adjustments, and they will eventually, are you going to make a similar thread like this, this year?
I'm not letting BLM go, but its going in the back burner. If I've learned anything from playing this game as a BLM, is to always keep your SMN leveled and gear updated incase of any changes.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Also, it's not just turreting/moving that's annoying/detrimental to the rotation. It's phase shifts and invincibility, something we didn't have to deal with before. Even something disappearing for 10s is enough to make us cry foul.

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I mean, phase shifts and invincibility also hurts Summoners Dreadwyrm Trance.

Movement is never an issue once you have done the fights several times, you just gotta plan for it. It's basically the same with 2.X, just abit more punishing now.

Says the lvl 53 blm...

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

Says the lvl 53 blm...

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I have a level 60 alt BLM. Dont make assumptions out of your ass and make your self look stupid.

You just need to know how to play your job better !

Summoners get punished for having the move if they use Dreadwyrm Trance at the wrong time resulting in massive damage loss. Black Mages are just complaining becuase there job is more technical now and is not easy to maximize damge like 2.0. Black Mages just want to do massive dps without any draw backs which is imbalanced. If SE overeacts and flat out buff Black Mage potency again they should give Summoner Teraflare as a normal spell with 1200 potency and a 3min cd just to balance it out.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

I have a level 60 alt BLM. Dont make assumptions out of your ass and make your self look stupid.

You just need to know how to play your job better !

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I looked at your load stone it says smn 60, Blm 53. I never said anything about my ability nor anything about blm other then say that when your 60. And the guy you quoted is correct, you can't ever compaired a Blm dummy fight to a real fight, you also can't compaired 3 min parse to a 2min, they both need to be at least 5min long, the preferred being 10. So yeah don't assume. I haven't played smn yet but all my 60 smn friends just laugh how they aren't punished by the stuff we are.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

I looked at your load stone it says smn 60, Blm 53. I never said anything about my ability nor anything about blm other then say that when your 60. And the guy you quoted is correct, you can't ever compaired a Blm dummy fight to a real fight, you also can't compaired 3 min parse to a 2min, they both need to be at least 5min long, the preferred being 10. So yeah don't assume.

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Well, you were wrong, since I have a level 60 BLM. And I've done both the EX primals on both jobs and they both had pretty much the same DPS after I've done the fights with both jobs alot, with BLM even topping SMN sometimes in Ravana EX.

So again, maybe people just need to play their job better.

Also, where did I compare dummy parses ?

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

I haven't played smn yet but all my 60 smn friends just laugh how they aren't punished by the stuff we are.

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What numbers are those Summoner "friends" of yours pulling and on what fights ?

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Well, you were wrong, since I have a level 60 BLM. And I've done both the EX primals on both jobs and they both had pretty much the same DPS after I've done the fights with both jobs alot, with BLM even topping SMN sometimes in Ravana EX.

So again, maybe people just need to play their job better.

Also, where did I compare dummy parses ?

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That's simply cause both of these fights aren't movement heavy. Seriously, in bismarck phase 2 i can just stand on the edge and turret everything down while picking my nose. Ofcourse you'll have good dps. Now put blm with some aoe dropping monstrosity and look at that dps plummet.

How, when I do bismark exit I get target by every bubble and tornados spawn literally on top of me non stop.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

How, when I do bismark exit I get target by every bubble and tornados spawn literally on top of me non stop.

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The tornados never reach the southern(probably north too) middle part of the arena.