New Bard feedback

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

So when are they going to adress the game breaking bug on bard that doesn't do any action till bloodletter is ready again???
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3060121

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OMG..this happened to me last night while I was fighting Bismark!! I though I was lagging since I tried to click any skill and it was not responding. Damn.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

play machinist instead now with gimpy dps ;D lol

you can move all the time you want, but you will do damage like a paladin ;D


and i think thats why they changed bard.. because they implemented machinist now..

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Gaus barrel <you can have this> (GB sucks too )

Ok so I'm not the only one who had that BRD bug where I couldn't use any skills. I was literally spamming my keyboard, almost thought I broke it. Happened to me so many time in instances, I wasn't sure what was causing it.

Anyway. I want to put my 2 cents in about the BRD changes. When I first got to 60, wielding ilvl 145 weapon, I thought to myself that my DPS, just by sheer numbers compared to other classes were by far incredibly less than other DPS classes using the same ilvl weapon. In 2.0, I could at least keep up with other DPS while everyone was using Zeta. I was pushing 700 DPS while other damage classes were near 900. I've had a considerable time now since 60, to play around weaving in and out of Wanderer's Minuet. What I concluded is, it sucks.

...cont.

I just don't want to give a judgement call on the playstyle change, (because in all honesty, the whole standing still is a COMPLETE change in how BRD is, no matter how anyone tries to argue that). I gave WM a try, I wanted to use it to it's full potential. The dmg compensation that comes WM is entirely debatable. WM is very situational, as some said. It's useless in Titan fight, we are required to move too much.

Here's an example of a fight that I was yesterday. I was in a party for Nevereap, and the 2 DPS was me and another BRD. I ran WM, and the other BRD only did WM at the start of battle, and turned it off after the rotation. From numbers alone, we were equal. I wielded the ilvl 180 bow, and she used ilvl 170 bow. Now for last boss, the other BRD beat me by just about 150 DPS, because all the movement we had to do. Other BRD could move and attack, while I had to continue to interrupt, then cast. I should've just turned it off, but this was for experiment purposes.

...cont.

This brings to my point, that the change wasn't for the better. It wasn't even necessary. SE could've gone ANY route to change BRD, but they wanted to change our play style. The mobility is what drew most of us in. Being able to attack and dodge. If we wanted to sit and cast, then BLM was the class we would've gone. Another thing I want to point out is the dmg scaling seems a bit off. MCH is TERRIBLE for dmg, unless people aren't doing rotations right. A friend of mine on BLM did 9k Fire IV, like seriously? With all my buffs popped, highest crit I've ever did was 4.6k Sidewinder. If we wanted to compare casting classes now that BRD is one, we are short on the totem pole.

u can edit your post to avoid the limit

Glad I read this thread. I was in DD for low level roulette and couldn't use any of my skills after a big pull. It was confusing as to why none of my skills would let me attack. Here's hoping that bug gets fixed soon.

As for Wanderer's Minuet... I simply don't use it. The DPS increase isn't enough to suffer through.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Just please stop telling people they don't have to use the minuet. It is wrong.
When we will get a bit info from parses and rotations etc., minuet will be probably "must use" and GL trying getting into EM farm party or Alexander Savage without using minuet.

I like minuet and I will get used to being a BLM. But don't tell me it added more possibilities to BRD, there are only 2. Use Minuet or get kicked from party.

And because minuet has a cast time, you won't be turning it on and off during fight. The cast time would hurt your average DPS badly. Any other DPS with casting times does in raids well and we will do well to. But forget about your movement, it is dead. :eek:

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you are absolutely correct. bards and mch wont get used at all --- why? the other jobs can manage mp and tp better with new skills.... plain and simple SE killed the ranged physical dps role.

I like the song sure i miss being fast but i can choose to take the song off and play it when i want to bust out a new skill. WM makes at least me pull off 1600-1700 crit at times ^^ and i love that glow around my body lol however at times i still for get i can't run when doing a skill :P but it's growing on me;)

Well, the big issue I can see is, that the WM is too weak for it's purpose. If SE wanted to make the bard more "support" than before, WM was the wrong way. But if they wanted to fulfill the wishes of those whiners who thought BRD was not doing enough damage, WM was also the wrong way.

Let's see. If we start with WM we don't have an auto attack but get 20% more damage out of our skills and we get fancy new moves like Empyrial Arrow (dunno if that's the right spelling). That's nice and all, but since we are robbed of our mobility, that's a huge trade off for the bit more damage, especially since we still have crappy attack potency AND lose Auto attacks, which tbh made a big part of our overall damage while we could move smoothly. Well, we can turn off the WM in those fights or phases, but if we wanna switch back, we have 3 whole seconds to get it back to work and another 1.5 seconds for the first skill to go off, which makes 4.5 seconds with NO DAMAGE AT ALL. No auto attack, no skill hit, just nothing.

IMO there are 2 solutions for this problem, if they really wanna keep the WM as a valid option for battles:

1: get rid of the cast time for WM itself and make it more like cleric stance with a small cooldown and instant switch so we can make the best use of both "stances" to be effective, since atm our numbers are far beyond good and evil in a bad way
2: Buff the overall damage while in WM so it becomes a valid option compared to other casters like the BLM which have the same problems with mobilities while they have far higher potencys.

OR (and that's my favourite workaround) get rid of WM and make Empyrial Arrow and the other WM-dependent skills available without it.

Just my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by Lyaha

You want to play that kind of class, why don't you go play Machinist, an entirely new class perfect for a new play style design, meanwhile, how about leaving Bard the fuck alone for people who didn't want to play a bloody BRD/BLM mix up.

I don't mind rotation changes, I don't mind extra abilities that we need to take into consideration, what I don't accept is changing the way we cast our abilities, especially with a skill that's so poorly designed.

Just because stupid decisions were made in other games doesn't mean it should happen here, so please, go play Machinist and let the rest of us enjoy the class we've been playing for the past two years.

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This person gets it^

I like the new song, the song allows me to do 3k dmg non-crit with Empy Arrow in my opener then Iron Jaw should really help keep my DoTs up but I still need to do the quest for that one, sometimes like someone else stated I do around 1k crit with Minuet on and it helps keep my dps on par with others while I'm doing my thing. I'm still getting use to turning it on and off but I swap around it when needed.

All I need is Sidewinder and my life will be complete as a bard. :x

What I see in a lot of people that likes WM, is "Oh look, that's a high crit, I love this whole 20% dmg increase!" But yet to realize, a single number from a single casted skill doesn't not equal the overall potential damage BRD could've done without WM.

From the interrupts from moving, to the 1.5 cast time per skill, to the no more auto attacks - does it validate the 20% DMG? In my previous post, the dmg with and without is negligible. You get a big whopping crit, and then you have to wait on cooldowns and cast away. Then what? Turn off WM and go on with our DPSing ways? Why introduce us 3.0 BRD and force us to not use any of our new skills? It makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Xyth

What I see in a lot of people that likes WM, is "Oh look, that's a high crit, I love this whole 20% dmg increase!" But yet to realize, a single number from a single casted skill doesn't not equal the overall potential damage BRD could've done without WM.

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The guy before you is a big example of our problem atm. Ignorant people get happy about the crit and forget about what they are losing. That big hit is there to make up for the amount of auto attack damage that you are not doing and that's not even close to it. It feels really good while leveling because you kill trash fast but for real content it's pretty bad.

Minuet needs to bring more damage. 30-40% min to be really woth it.

And the Warden's Paean should be replaced for a skill that puts both dots insta like Summ has....

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

The guy before you is a big example of our problem atm. Ignorant people get happy about the crit and forget about what they are losing. That big hit is there to make up for the amount of auto attack damage that you are not doing and that's not even close to it. It feels really good while leveling because you kill trash fast but for real content it's pretty bad.

Minuet needs to bring more damage. 30-40% min to be really worth it.

And the Warden's Paean should be replaced for a skill that puts both dots insta like Smn has....

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Girl and I personally think Minuet does more dmg than people think to be able to re-apply DoTs with Iron Jaws then do Sidewinder for more dmg if you got DoTs on? I am putting aside the whole fact that Empy Arrow can do 3k non-crit as an opener on it's own.

There's a lot that I personally think is gained from it, so what if I'm losing the ability to move and hop around like a rabbit while attacking at the same time and a small amount of time with auto-attack?

I don't think my opinion is a problem, it's not any more of a problem than yours is in fact. We're both able to state them but I will say I don't think your opinion makes it for an efficient reason to change anything. I can see how it benefits us and those who plays our job if we had more dps or could have auto-attack/movement but how does any of that benefit the means of balance or benefit those of another job whose meant to be stronger?

By the way, as much as Warden's Paean confuses me as far as it's usefulness goes, we got a skill of our own that refreshes both DoTs done by us called Iron Jaws. There's really no room for another skill that re-applies DoTs on monsters.

You don't even know what you are talking about you say EA is doing 3 k non crit when you are lv55 and im 60 item level 170+ and i cant reach that number at all. That's what you get with a crit + buffs if anything, and with my gear not yours.

It's been parsed many times by now and it's not worth it. You are telling me there's isn't room for another skill that re-applies dots and that's not at all what i'm asking for. There's a huge diference between refreshing and applying NEW dots when an enemy has none.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

You don't even know what you are talking about you say EA is doing 3 k non crit when you are lv55 and im 60 item level 170+ and i cant reach that number at all. That's what you get with a crit + buffs if anything, and with my gear not yours.

It's been parsed many times by now and it's not worth it. You are telling me there's isn't room for another skill that re-applies dots and that's not at all what i'm asking for. There's a huge diference between refreshing and applying NEW dots when an enemy has none.

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I have a question for you, have you noticed that your barrage changed at all to fit with the change of wanderer's in case it's used under wanderer's? Barrage now multiples non-crit strikes for a single weapon skill by 3, now take wanderers, raging strikes, b4b and hawk eye then put that together with EA when Barrage is up thus I get a 3k hitting non-crit EA. < Knowing what I am talking about and mind you I use this as an opener, It can be completely wrong but until we can all figure out a rotation for these new skills and changes to fit in with our older ones well... I'm going to work with what I can.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

And the Warden's Paean should be replaced for a skill that puts both dots insta like Summ has....

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I read that and mistaken you addressing it to put both DoT's (Wind Bite and Venomous Bite) on the monsters like a SMN can spread their current dots with Bane so if you didn't mean that then I apologize but next time please be more clear with your words and choosings of them.

By the way I don't really parse so I won't know the total increase of having the song on when I use it but.... you don't really need the song on all the time anyways, It's for a few moments and if in those few moments you're doing a few big hits in a small window and increasing the dmg done by your DoTs before proceeding to turn the song off then... I don't see the problem.

I don't see Wanderer's as a song meant to be on 24/7 for a perma dmg increase.

Do you seriously think that something you can do only during the opener for a mediocre 3k spike makes up for all the auto attacks you are not doing during the whole fights + the fact that Barrage + Auto attack would do more than that because auto attacks can actually crit???

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

Do you seriously think that something you can do only during the opener for a mediocre 3k spike makes up for all the auto attacks you are not doing during the whole fights + the fact that Barrage + Auto attack would do more than that because auto attacks can actually crit???

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That's why you don't use the song for more than a few moments, you do the opener without the song then sing near the end and turn it off AFTER you do whatever you need to. If you're keeping it on for a long duration of time then you may be doing more damage than good to yourself. :x

By the way, auto attack and barrage does not work together anymore, barrage was changed.

http://i.imgur.com/MN79ZFP.png

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Originally Posted by Lillia

That's why you don't use the song for more than a few moments, you do the opener without the song then sing near the end and turn it off AFTER you do whatever you need to. If you're keeping it on for a long duration of time then you may be doing more damage than good to yourself. :x

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xDDD So we got 5 new abilities so we can use them on the openers and then forget about them. Working as intended.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

xDDD So we got 5 new abilities so we can use them on the openers and then forget about them. Working as intended.

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Uh three, You get three new skills to use under WM effect which is a new skill itself. Refresh your DoT's with a bit more DMG being done over time under wanderer's then go back to your normal happy go lucky auto attack dps and running which matters oh so much self with usual rotation. < Working as intended

You can weave in the wanderer's sometimes if you find the time to refresh DoT's with Iron Jaws and use stuff like Sidewinder and EA but it's just not worth having on for a long period of time. (I personally will attempt to find a way to do this with a dummy when I have all of the new skills myself.)

Warden's isn't used for openers it's used to help dodge nasty and annoying AoE debuffs for the whole party.

You are beyond salvation it's a complete waste of time trying to discuss anything with you. You keep missing all the points and think it's fine to have a stance that doesn't really buff our damage for any real fight like primals or raids and the fact that Barrage got changed for something worst than what we had before. If you can't value dps while moving it's probably because you never had any major role in coil where you had to kite enemies or deal with mechanics to help your team. I can't belive someone can be so blind after playing almost 2 years this mmo and probably the job too.

Auto attacks were a HUGE part of our dps and WM doesn't cover it and doesn't cover the times you have to move in "hard" fights. You can live in your dream with your 3k opener thinking your dps got better thanks to it but the reality is that we got changed in to caster job that has burst for a short period of time and that's all. Blm could already do that and better.

And if we had good movement it's because we had lower dps. Now we don't have the movement and the dps it's still low.

I have some very rough numbers that could help shed some light on this discussion.
I have done some rough math and have notice that my unbuffed auto attacks did around 200 and something per tick so for a minute that is about 4k in damage in auto attacks.
Now while under WM we can hit EA 4 times and that usually hits for 850= 3,400 then we can use Sidewinder once per minute= not sure what that is going to do yet but going to be well over 1k so that is a dps increase right there and it is unbuffed. With the buffed versions of the opener and such I think we are still going to see a dps increase and if bards are good at using the cast timer you can pre-dodge just like any other job early (takes practice to get it down...Git Gud)
When we get the fully buff opener and hit the Sidewinder we are going to be fine.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

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Lol, We're not a full blown ranged DPS like a BLM anyways so I'd hope they could do that and more? We're utility, a BLM will always do better with or without this stance and unlike them we can remove the cast times when we are done then go back to doing what we normally do while weaving in the new abilities with wanderers only when needed after that.

I have done Coil by the way, thanks. I've done Coil turns un-nerfed before on bard and have experience up to T11 (which I have gained some experience in) in which my static fell apart due to me having personal rl matters going on and them not being able to grab a replacement bard.

So I know the requirements of a bard having to move, aka Remmy kiting (T7) and Brainjack grabbings (T8), but why would you even use wanderer's if you're going to do something similar to what Renaud kitting was in T7? It'd be bad choices made on your part when you could just stick with normal rotations unless you're willing to practice in taking note of some monster's HP % and the battle timings on bard, which I'd commend you in doing. For something like T8 I eventually just had it built into me to react at some point or another so I eventually learned the times when I was and wasn't able to sing or do something that would hinder my movement. :x

http://i.imgur.com/qkZTxUL.png

But honestly if you can't afford to take off a song like you would always do when you sing ballad or armys anyways (If you sing it) then I kindly say please re-think your current playstyle on the job. (Foe's is an exception.)


@Mikedizzy Sidewinder is basically this; "Delivers an attack with a potency of 150. Can only be executed while under the effect of the Wanderer's Minuet. Additional Effect: If the target is suffering from a Venomous Bite or Windbite effect inflicted by you, Sidewinder's potency is increased to 250 for one effect, or 350 for both."

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Originally Posted by Lillia

Lol, We're not a full blown ranged DPS like a BLM anyways so keep dreaming? We're Utility, a BLM will always do better with or without this stance.

I have done Coil by the way, thanks. I've done Coil turns un-nerfed before on bard and have experience up to T11 (which I have gained some experience in) in which my static fell apart due to me having personal rl matters going on and them not being able to grab a replacement bard.

http://i.imgur.com/qkZTxUL.png

But honestly if you can't afford to take off a song like you always do when you sing ballad or armys anyways (If you sing it) then I kindly say please re-think your current playstyle on the job.

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I wish they would add a "Utility" Spot in duty finder then because I'm sick of 90min "DPS" Q's.

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Originally Posted by Crazypluto

I wish they would add a "Utility" Spot in duty finder then because I'm sick of 90min for "DPS" Q's.

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Lol, maybe take off our songs, increase our dmg and finally change our name from bard. Then we can finally have a ranger in the game and the world will make sense again! :p (Joking! nothing offensively directed towards you.)

But no, I think we have DPS because we do attack and dps just.. not as high as other jobs due to our playstyle being what is really utility. We're meant to support and dps, we support at a cost normally with foes and warden's being exceptions however warden's is a situational song.

Exp t11 xD And again you miss the point. The damage of the Song is ment to make our DPS WAY better and it doesn't. I really don't know what's so hard to understand.
You are trying to explain to people who are Bard lv60 how the skills work when we already had time to test them. Also by the way Sidewinder tool tip is wrong and doesn't need Minuet.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

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You know, after testing it out more at 60... I gotta woman up and say I was wrong, dmg from WM does seem rather small when you add up on everything else out of it. I still think you came out in an awful and mocking manner over it all but I gotta agree that WM could probably use some fixing in it though some of my thoughts haven't changed.

I still don't believe we need certain things if we get a fix on the problem and clunkiness of it and stick with the fact that we'll probably be better off swapping in and out of it.... but.... it's definitely lower dmg than expected.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

I have some very rough numbers that could help shed some light on this discussion.
I have done some rough math and have notice that my unbuffed auto attacks did around 200 and something per tick so for a minute that is about 4k in damage in auto attacks.
Now while under WM we can hit EA 4 times and that usually hits for 850= 3,400 then we can use Sidewinder once per minute= not sure what that is going to do yet but going to be well over 1k so that is a dps increase right there and it is unbuffed. With the buffed versions of the opener and such I think we are still going to see a dps increase and if bards are good at using the cast timer you can pre-dodge just like any other job early.

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You do not need WM on to use Sidewinder, do not add that to WM yet not non-WM. The tooltip for skill is inaccurate. I can use Sidewinder just fine without WM turned on despite what the tooltip says so if your adding SW to WM then add its use also for non-WM because it works without it on for the time being. Your essentially using flawed maths by excluding it from one side while adding on the other given works whether WM on or off.

SE need to remove the auto attack restriction on WM as the loss of auto attacks along side the cast times plus cancelling of skills if move while WM on while using them offsets any real benefit of the skill including in no small way offsetting the 20% buff it is supposed to provide. I have no problem having to use cast timers on WM, I have no issue in the cancelling of skills when move while active but to remove auto attacks as well has made it almost worthless. For me remove auto attack restriction on skill and I think would be fine. The DPS increase will actually be worthwhile while not being overpowered and at the same time you still have the loss of mobility while using skills affected by WM and their cast times which should be enough on it's own.

Yoshi talked about giving bards a option to do more dmg , because they felt that brd were a little behind , since Brd could move and dps they decided than forcing brd to cast was the right trade off , and thats what WM is supposed to do trade movility for DMG........but isnt the case and WM doesnt bring Bard where it should be (ranged dps) , smn and blm do way more , hell even tanks (drk/war).... is just sad.

It will be fixed? yeah eventually (see WAR and DRG in 2.0-2.5)

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

Yoshi talked about giving bards a option to do more dmg , because they felt that brd were a little behind , since Brd could move and dps they decided than forcing brd to cast was the right trade off , and thats what WM is supposed to do trade movility for DMG........but isnt the case and WM doesnt bring Bard where it should be (ranged dps) , smn and blm do way more , hell even tanks (drk/war).... is just sad.

It will be fixed? yeah eventually (see WAR and DRG in 2.0-2.5)

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I think a few jobs will be adjusted, Looking at you Astro with that lightspeed ability! Plus I think Machinist will get a buff or tweaks as well. ;o

The addition of cast times as a byproduct of the skill and the cancellation of skill use when move...fair enough it tackles the mobility to offset the %DMG increase BUT the restriction of auto-attacks too is like cutting off a guys balls out of spite which negates any real benefit of using the skill itself.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

The additional of cast times as a byproduct of the skill and the cancellation of skill use when move...fair enough it tackles the mobility to offset the %DMG increase BUT the restriction of auto-attacks too is like cutting off a guys balls out of spite which negates any real benefit of using the skill itself.

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Disabling auto-attacks is meaningless.

The thing that should be fixed, if a fix is needed, is making sure that damage output with WM activated puts BRD DPS close to that of the other ranged DPS.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

BRD DPS close to that of the other ranged DPS.

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I just don't know if the devs will ever do this. They roll the class-utility aspect of the BRD and MCH into the design when they make them (presumably, based on previous explanations they have given) so perhaps the lower DPS is an intentional design feature. It remains to be seen though, if they will adjust the utility DPS damage output, or if the devs will argue this is a result of job's role.

I guess we won't know really until Alexander shows up.

All i can say is that if this skill sticks around, i will no longer be playing bard and it has been my main since 1.0.

I didn't choose to play the job because of its DPS, my top reason for playing it was due to its playstyle and secondly because i enjoy support classes. WM just completely changes the playstyle too much on top of including one of the things i really dislike which are cast timers. If SE choose to keep the skill or buff it, i can guarantee I will no longer be playing bard or machinist. If I'm to put up with cast timers, I'd rather play something like summoner.