Shortage of tanks a myth - thoughts?

I agree. I have an i114 tank. I don't use it in DF because I'm tired of DPS treating me like their slave. You have long queue times because your peers are jerks, and make people like myself heal instead.

My very first 50 was WAR, and I had fun taking it to 50, wasn't a bad journey but post 50 it dropped off real quick. It could be that I had some real good luck and never came across severely bad apples until then, but on 50 things just got messy. Admittedly I can be a bit timid about runs and so I've never done a speed run, not taking it slow, but definitely not trying to grab everything in the damn room. People weren't happy, never were. Even had situations where DPS would initiate shit ahead of me. Over time I just kept getting more and more nervous about everything and eventually too timid to run any higher tier content. In the end I switched to DPS and main'd them since. At this point I can't even think were to attempt picking back up my WAR so it now only lives on in my retainer.

Tanking mechanics are interesting and lively, but with critical teammates bearing down with snarky remarks or worse it makes some people nervous and everything more difficult than it needs to be.

First time I did garuda story as WHM, I did one very small mistake and got myself killed which slowly brought down the rest of the party. The DRG of the group said "..." But that was it. We tried again and got a little further, but again I died and then so did the rest. This time the DRG said, "you are a shitty healer. Worst I've ever seen in any MMO. You should really stop playing. Just leave so we can get a better healer than you." And I did leave.

I loved WHM too much to fully stop healing. And I still go as WHM to pretty much everything. I leveled BLM as a back up. I have no idea why I leveled SCH/SMN.

So I haven't seen very many healers be mean to tanks, but I have seen a lot of DPS do so.

And I've gotten grief from both tanks and DPS.

Tanks aren't rare. There's too many of us for the amount of endgame offered. <_< All of you should go switch to heals/DPS so I can be the last of our kind o/

In all seriousness, I believe in the leveling game, there is a clear lack of tanks. 1-50 there's really not enough tank/heals to go around, though this might be due moreso to the ratio of tanks:healers that are leveling...

However, in end game, it tends to be much easier to find good tanks. So I think the "Myth" as you said ends at 50.

Someone complains about something every time. Even though my war is i115 I Haven't tanked much of anything. So im not as good as some of the tanks Ive healed. Im certain I dont suck though. Instead of offering advice or telling what they feel is wrong they just bitch and whine like punks. So unless Im farming poetics or chasing a piece of gear for my tank im not tanking anything. I feel tanking is the toughest roll in the game and having people complain is annoying since they really don't have any responsibility in a fight except to dodge which most people cant even do. Thats my perspective as a i130 blm, and i126 whm so i see it from every angle. Im definitely discouraged from tanking stuff.

The only time I was ever directly yelled at by anyone while tanking was first time doing Tam Tara as tank...and it was pretty clear that the DPS in question was there to troll only.

I once got yelled at by a SMN while healing because I let the tank die, since I blew my rez on the DPS that had been raised by the SMN two seconds faster than me... but we talked (I literally forgot SMN could raise at all.....) and it was all right in the end.

Personally I never try to be mean to anyone in DF, even tanks, unless they're going at it first (I'm only human, even though you want to be the bigger person in those situations we all have off days). I don't like to tank in DF though... tanking makes me nervous and I don't really like having the attention of all the monsters. I also don't like being yelled at. If I suck, tell me why, I can try to improve. Name calling/etc is unnecessary. I've seen tanks take shit that was undeserved (and some that was, but, ahem) and I don't particularly want to experience it.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

No offense, but your system is inherantly bad because:
1) It forces people to do it, or else "Risk marking yourself down"
2) Anything that inconveniences players will naturally see them just leaving it to the natural answers (Your idea of hitting esca)E
3) It should NEVER be forced on a player.

I don't mind an optional survey/option at the end. Optional is good. I always select "No" on optional surveys. But like I said, the moment you try and -force- it on me? That's when I'll just put everything was ****.

I like the current system of commendations. People will gravitate towards whatever they usually gravitate towards. Exceptional play, and some people might give you -extra- coms. But never forced. Never.

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I didn't say it was forced, I said if you hit cancel, it just auto-scores as average. If a duty was awful, people would certainly go to town and mark down the bad actors. Likewise if it was exceptional and mark up the good ones. Whatever the average score is, is what you rated yourself.

To go back to my CSR example, the other site I worked for used to have positive and negative feedback, everyone had 98% or better feedback because people were outright terrified of being marked down. Literately, if you had 97.9% you were at risk of having your account suspended. People also knowingly bought feedback (RMT >_>) by buying downloadables from Chinese pirates. Then they removed negative feedback entirely because bad actors were using it as a way to hold each other hostage and was actively chasing people off the platform.

You don't make the score visible, because that causes retaliation. You only use it to weight the DF so that good players get faster queues by being matched together, and trolls get lumped together and either shape up or quit. As this thread has demonstrated, the game would be better of people would have some patience.

The only reason why it would not make good sense to implement it as is, is that it would take too long to do without knowing the difference between a "good" player and a "bad" player based only on numbers. People who only play with their friends/static using PF would never be given surveys.

The myth is very real, mate. But at a much smaller scale than you think it is.

The amount of people who harass tanks/healers are not much. Say, in at least 10 runs I do in low-level duty roulette, I'd get all smooth runs on a good day and at max 2 runs that went bad because DPS.

The proportions is blown out of control because the tanks/healers/people that get harassed tells their side of the story and automatically blame the general community for being toxic.

The myth is real, yes. But ask the average tank/healer how many times have they actually get harassed and how many times have runs gone smooth? I bet most of them will say a lot of their runs are actually smooth and only a few them turned sour.

I don't consider someone who's simply leveled, or even half-heartedly geared a tank class to be "a tank" in any way what so ever.
To be a tank, you need to actually use it, abuse it, love it, hate it, ride with it. You have the prestige, the responsibility, the leadership, the ability to be the target of everyones hate (and you thought you only needed a mobs enmity!) and walk it off like it's nothing.

In this sense, the shortage of tanks continues to be an issue and is overall real. Unfortunately, it takes a certain kind of person to be a tank (this also applies to healers), and there isn't much you can do to get people to change over to one. Even Dark Knight tanks will go through the same trials of their peers all other tanks end up going through.

It depends on how good you are at your job. No one ever complains when I heal, and a lot of the times I'm doing DPS on par with the others.

But when I tank it's another story. Sometimes I can't keep up with the over healing, the stray mobs, or DPS grabbing things ahead of me. I get overwhelmed and then I die and someone, sometimes, patronizes me and makes me feel inadequate. The problem lies in how transparent the tank and healer roles faults are. When a tank or a healer make a mistake, you know it. But no one calls out the BLM doing 250 DPS in i130, who is slowing the run down more than anyone. Half the player base can't parse, most of the other half won't admit to it in party chat. So nothing gets said.

There is immense pressure on tanks to play how the party wants but there is almost no pressure on DPS to play efficiently, let alone their best. If the tables were turned and DF DPS had to wear their mistakes on their faces, people would be a lot more respectful to one another.

Better we ask SE to drop Tank role then if it's so depressing.

This is all about people thinking that tanking is equal to "taking one for the team", as if it's something that's not enjoyable. I can understand that some people actively dislike tank roles in MMOs, but if you have a tank geared and ready and then proceed to whine because you wanted to do your roulette as a DPS for the five hundredth time, you're doing it wrong.

I think DRKs will help somewhat in populating the DF with tanks, yes. My only hope is that said DRKs will either be people who have tanked before and find new enjoyment in a new job, or people who are new to tanking but bother to learn how to do it. There's a very real danger of less-involved players having seen the cool job trailers and then rolling DRK because they look cool, thinking it's a DPS job like everything else.

The things is pretty simple here, if you love Tank class all other shit are doesn't matter because you will get better and respectable later. Or you can keep whine like a loser in this forums.

iTank and iSpank. And iLove it !

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

its about having to run a dungeon 60 times to get a drop and not wanting to effectively double or triple the amount of time the dungeon takes, and don't talk pf cause I have tried, you cannot form a pf pt for zodiac drop runs. No one wants to join.

All this talk about abused tanks just irritates me

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So by your own admission what you want is undesirable yet feel that a better solution is to force it on a DF group?
What about those who are there who need the xp or specific level gear?
Perhaps it would be better to discuss it before you head into dungeon. You may get what you want or at least a compromise. Would that not be better?

there is 0 stress playing a tank or healer
why?
because i can play my sch blindfolded and outdo nearly every dps i meet

[QUOTE=MirielleLavandre;3019504] a shortage of tanks willing to put up with Duty Finder.

Ding Ding Ding!

I would say a great majority of people use duty finder even if everyone has a tank class lvled it will not matter. Duty finder is why people say there is a shortage so if they don't like df then we have a shortage of tanks. It's that simple.

Not to mention a lot of people have tank classes lvled but, can't play them very well.

Tanks and healers get the brunt of the bs.

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Originally Posted by KarmaCha

I agree. I have an i114 tank. I don't use it in DF because I'm tired of DPS treating me like their slave. You have long queue times because your peers are jerks, and make people like myself heal instead.

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If you don't want the rest of the group to enslave you as a tank, as soon as you get in the dungeon, turn around and stare at them just like this:

http://www.thewrap.com/sites/default...6-1280-720.jpg

Show 'em who's the boss!

I have a 50s in PLD, WHM, and NIN (among others). I rarely will tank DF. I will tank for my FC and Friends at that drop of the hat. I have found that players in a DF (in general) are not the kinds of players that I wish to associate with. I think it is not the content, but the "No consequences for my actions as I hide behind and avatar" mindset that turns me off the most.

I play to have fun, Tanking the DF for me is not fun, so I do not do it.

I think the reason most tanks have trouble in dungeons because they geared up poorly. Most non i130 tanks I see in DF chose to pour all their poets into their armor first instead of weapon and leave their weapons at zenith/atma or weathered soldiery weapon. IMO they should dump their poet first into their weapon and pour all their soldiery into armor until they can use poets on it (seriously guys, don't be stubborn with your relic, you can use them at the last boss to get the lights). I see DPS doing the same thing but them performing low isnt immediately apparent on the aggro management side and even questioning them is usually seen as harassment so they got nothing to worry about there.

There's also the way tanks are taught to tank in low level where aoe enmity actions are used to gather the mobs and keep them in tow every few actions and you use single target combos to generate the majority of their enmity, which generally doesnt work that way in post 50 anymore, where aoe is the primary enmity generator and combos are for managing resources and mitigation.

Lastly, some tanks that multi pull don't even bother to tag the mobs they pull and just expect them to follow the tank with just the encounter enmity, stop the pull and then start generating aggro. It seems risky to me because you never know how healers will react. Healers that doesn't notice or know will try to heal the tank before he starts throwing out his first aoe enmity move and grab all the aggro immediately, if the healer doesnt die there, the mob positioning is likely now ruined because some mobs are tagged and stuck to the tank and some don't and you spend extra time trying to get mobs shift 3 steps over and make the dps miss their ground aoes. If the healer notices and doesnt heal the tank until he tags all of them, the risk of the tank immediately dying is pretty high. Throwing extra lobs or aoes along the time makes resource management harder but with how hard tanks generate aoe nowadays (as long as your weapon isnt crap) it shouldn't matter much imo.

I think it just boils down to a lot of people both not wanting that much responsibility thrust upon them, and being adverse to conflict. The second of which leads them to allow obnoxious party members to kinda walk all over them.

To all would-be tanks, or tanks who are harassed in the DF, I say to you this - remember that you're the hardest role to replace, and if your party members want to give you shit or pull at a rate you yourself are uncomfortable with (within the bounds of reason, obviously if you're only pulling once every two minutes that is way too slow), remind them gently but firmly of the queue time that they will have to go through if they keep it up. That tends to shut people up - followed by voting for a dismiss if need be, and if things are truly dire (which i find extremely rare), simply bowing out (granted, this last one is not a option for people who don't have the time in the day to tank a half hour leave penalty, but there does come a point where you have to ask yourself if you'd be actually enjoying yourself doing something else instead of sitting through a miserable experience).

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Originally Posted by Gardes

*snip*

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Oh hell yeah.
If tanks would communicate to the healer that they are going to multi-pull, that would help a TON!
Sometimes one can have lag, not pay enough attention, or just misunderstand the tank's intention, and heal too early/too late.
In those situations I am really, really, grateful for my "fix the fuckup"-button, aka Lustrate.

One of the problems that I've run into with my old guild was that when a new game was released, everyone tried rolling healer or tank for easier queues and to 'help the guild', but then we always ended up with to little dps at endgame. You need far more geared dps than tanks or healers for endgame usually, so if you are a healer or tank as main, you dont have as many available slots in a raid group as you would a DPS.

In the end it comes down to, organized groups usually need geared and competent dps, more than tanks/healers, and the DF needs tanks/healers more than dps.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

its about having to run a dungeon 60 times to get a drop and not wanting to effectively double or triple the amount of time the dungeon takes

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You made the decision to queue as DPS, you made the decision to wait sometimes more than 20 minutes to get into the dungeon. Those decisions forfeit your ability to complain about dungeons taking more time then they should. A DPS in a rush complaining about how much time the run is taking is like a psychologist complaining that everyone they talk to is crazy. If you were in such a rush.... don't queue as DPS.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

The road goes 2 ways so stop blaming everyone else

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Here's the thing, the road doesn't go 2 ways, and thats the entire point of this thread. Because of people like you, no one wants to tank in DF. If the road did go 2 ways then there wouldn't be a shortage of tanks, there wouldn't be threads like this, and everything would be fine. The best way to solve this issue is to encourage new tanks, be nice to EVERYONE in DF and (you're going to hate this one) give tanks a bit more slack when they do something stupid. I know, its not fair, its preferential treatment, but its the best way to keep DF stocked with meat shields. Be the change you want to see in others. /endrant

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Originally Posted by nyttyn

I think it just boils down to a lot of people both not wanting that much responsibility thrust upon them, and being adverse to conflict. The second of which leads them to allow obnoxious party members to kinda walk all over them.

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The game would be better if we could just silently go "don't match me with this guy again" at some point during the run (eg after a wipe.)

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The game would be better if we could just silently go "don't match me with this guy again" at some point during the run (eg after a wipe.)

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Most MMO's with group finders do have this, swtor and wow for example allow you to blacklist the people in your group and it makes sure to never match you with that person again even if they are on a different server than you. FF14 doesn't allow you to block people in your dungeon group at all which I don't really understand.

As for the shortage of tanks, there is one aspect of it that I keep in mind. Given how quick tanks get groups and how we rarely if ever have to roll against anyone for drops, it's fairly easy to gear up. Once we're done gearing up there's not much else to do besides level and gear up something else. Using myself as an example, in three weeks of fairly regular play as a tank, I went from 1-50, have an ilevel of 108 and finished the entire main scenario to go to HW as well. The reason? I'm a tank, my role is always in high demand, but now that I've basically accomplished everything, why bother queueing up at all? I got what I want, I don't owe anything to the random potential pugs in my potential groups. Though they are in luck as I am leveling a marauder, so there will be at least one more tank in the system for a bit.

Edit:

One thing I want to add though, I didn't have any of the disrespectful jerks in my group, everyone in the groups were very patient with me and more than willing to teach me how to do the various dungeons and trials that had mechanics and if we did wipe everyone maintained a positive attitude until we succeeded. I only had one boss in the whole ordeal give me trouble and that was Niabri whatever his name was.

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Originally Posted by Svalitz

I think definitely that the game would benefit from players in DF treating their tanks with more respect and NOT expect perfection or speed runs every time.

If tanks were viewed as group leaders and necessary members (which...they are) and treated respectfully during runs then people wouldn't be so afraid of the responsibility.

It's jerkwads who yell at the tanks and tell them off about not playing the way they want them to (usually demanding pulls of every monster in the dungeon, then getting mad when the tank dies) that have ruined people willing to sign up with random folks.

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This is why I stopped playing as Tank ages ago!! D: <

It is true that people are expecting a bit too much from tanks, just the other day I got scolded during a level 10 fate by a random guy because I didn't tank his mobs that would have died in 2-3 hits anyway. He proceeded to call me noob and insulted.
He may just have been an idiot but I often find myself in similar situations, both in dungeons and not.

As a PLD I haven't got a lot of "Abuse" cept for times I did F up (Lack of skill/knowladge of dungeon) I have gotten a few from over-geared DPS playing the "Take Hate from the Tank" game but since I do mark at lest 1 target (usually a AoE or ranged Mob) I just blow it off. I can say I few a bit bad from a run I did once a few weeks ago as a BRD (110 weapon, total ilv115) gave my PLD a bit of shit for saying something about BRD AoE spaming failing us, when I've done that with his gear & haven't lost arrgo that bad, might lose them for a second but I get it right back (DPS check of Amtor Keep HM Big stature with slimes phase lost them to us didn't want them back, he had the 110 Relic & lots of 130 gear... can't speek for other BRD didn't check them)... so yah I feal bad about that & try not to be as "mean" as a DPS anymore if I even ever talk. don't say anything unless I need to even as a Tank.

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Originally Posted by The_NPC

As a PLD I haven't got a lot of "Abuse" cept for times I did F up (Lack of skill/knowladge of dungeon) I have gotten a few from over-geared DPS playing the "Take Hate from the Tank" game but since I do mark at lest 1 target (usually a AoE or ranged Mob) I just blow it off. I can say I few a bit bad from a run I did once a few weeks ago as a BRD (110 weapon, total ilv115) gave my PLD a bit of shit for saying something about BRD AoE spaming failing us, when I've done that with his gear & haven't lost arrgo that bad, might lose them for a second but I get it right back (DPS check of Amtor Keep HM Big stature with slimes phase lost them to us didn't want them back, he had the 110 Relic & lots of 130 gear...can't speek for other BRD didn't check them)... so yah I feal bad about that & try not to be as "mean" as a DPS anymore if I even ever talk. don't say anything unless I need to even as a Tank.

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I really hate the "take hate from the tank" game.

I especially hate it when the off tank plays it on the main tank.

When I started ARR I preferred to dps, especially as a class who could offtank or kite if shit hit the fan. Then I found tank queues.

Kidding, that's not quite the ending there... But, in the same vein, I actually didn't mind tanking for DF groups as long as I could explain things while on the run, the healer was decent, and the Bard didn't CD-blast things before my having even reached them. I usually found a good pace for making suggestions as not to be too rude (or, not rude enough to adversely affect party behavior by my commenting). Over time I found I could hurry the run even more by being an aggressive Cleric healer, and then back and forth between the two according to ilvl and weapon quality. Since then I've done almost every solo-queue Expert roulette as either healer or tanks not just because of the queues, but also (or especially, even) because I felt like I was less constrained by the difference between a random group and my own when in a (slightly more) commanding role compared to a dps. I feel like this is where the major difference comes in. Some of it may come down to your general confidence in tanking, but after that it's in what situations (in which role) do you feel that something is lacking. For me, queuing as dps often felt worse than tank/healer, so with the queue time difference, dps was just something I queued as with friends for the change of pace.

I played a tank when the game began and through most of first coil when I was on pc. But my pc died(alienware regrets) and I was banished to ps3. While its fine with small numbers of mobs, finding the target I want in a large group is cumbersome and even though I was among the earliest to clear first coil, the flip from being considered a great tank to a mediocre one was heartbreaking. I main'd Dragoon for awhile then settled in as a bard. I have come to love it, but sometimes I do play it like I'm a tank. The thing about bards is they can take care of themselves most of the time. If I pull a mob and can handle it I'll kite it around until its dead. If not I'll bring it to the tank. I tell rookie tanks all the time: Gnawdy tanking guide, lesson 1. DON'T CHASE THE BARD! If he can't handle it he'll bring it to you, or die.

I have been taking since Garuda in 1.0. I will not say I'm the best, but as a tip for anyone looking to start, remember one thing. Always add at least 1 more overpower/flash when you have a Blm and Brd in the pt. Do it!

I played a tank when the game began and through most of first coil when I was on pc. But my pc died(alienware regrets) and I was banished to ps3. While its fine with small numbers of mobs, finding the target I want in a large group is cumbersome and even though I was among the earliest to clear first coil, the flip from being considered a great tank to a mediocre one was heartbreaking. I main'd Dragoon for awhile then settled in as a bard. I have come to love it, but sometimes I do play it like I'm a tank. The thing about bards is they can take care of themselves most of the time. If I pull a mob and can handle it I'll kite it around until its dead. If not I'll bring it to the tank. I tell rookie tanks all the time: Gnawdy tanking guide, lesson 1. DON'T CHASE THE BARD! If he can't handle it he'll bring it to you, or die.

The abuse has led me and my friends in my FC to dub the asshole tank mentality "Diva Tank". All of us have a tank at level 50. We each have it geared for almost all content currently available, and we each have suffered through the horrors of DF shlubs. Each of us have gotten to the point where if someone tries to dictate what we do, we say: "Screw that noise, I do what I want. I'm the Tank, and I have faster queue times than you. You can leave if you want, I really don't care".

It's usually aimed at DPS who insist that the tank pulls their way, when it's honestly not up to us whether we speedrun or not. We have to keep our healers in mind. If the healer is okay with it, and can keep up with the damage, then we're all for it. If they're not, or one of the DPS isn't doing AoE's, then we don't, no matter how pissy the DerPS get.

I don't know if its been said here or not.. 12 pages is a bit to read.

But Tanks just aren't needed after a certain point. Think about it, everyone who's doing something has their 2 tanks. That's right they only need 2. They need specific DPS classes to round out their statics and raids. This happens in most MMORPGs.

Sure the low level queues are lacking tanks, but at the top of the spectrum, they aren't needed as much. So those tanks switch to DPS and cause the cycle to repeat.

The problem is in the holy trinity itself. And more specifically pushing classes into singular roles.

My favorite tank so far is the bot tank from Brayflox we kicked, then got immediately again. I bailed. Sorry can't heal that mess.

Unfortunately this cycle will keep repeating itself. For example as long as it is perceived that tanks and healers should have more respect than dps they will always be put under the microscope. Likewise if a dps is viewed with little to no respect they may not respect you or feel no reason to actually put in effort. In a perfect world everyone would respect one another.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

The problem is in the holy trinity itself. And more specifically pushing classes into singular roles.

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There is nothing wrong with the roles. You either end up with V1.0 style "dynamic class changing in battle" or you end up with Mabinogi-style "I have all the skillz and am a master at none" if you don't lock the roles. The problem is a lack of enforcement of the roles when the powercreep from the gear diminishes the roles for the tank and healer. That makes everyone try to faceroll through the content without paying attention to the game mechanics.

The player needs to come into the dungeon prepared to do the role they queued as, otherwise they make everyone miserable, and by extension make the game sound like it's filled with either crappy players or adult-children who don't know what responsibility is. Combine that with the RMT problems and it's a wonder why MMORPG's don't have greater churn.

Yeah basically the OP is right, however i myself still tank in DF i just usually ask politely if the DPS and healer are up for a speedrun or if they want to take it slow.