Another Upset Summoner

Honestly if they had added more egi's the only thing that would have happened is that ifrit/garuda would have either been replaced or the new egi would have been useless.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

New Egi will come in some form, trust and believe.

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Yes in the form of glamours. They've already said that they've thought long and hard about it and that they think the best idea is to rebalance the current egi's. They said they're planning on adding a system where you can basically glamour your pet into a new egi. Shiva for instance would replace your summon II for the tank pet, or you could use topaz carbuncle.

Is shiva gonna be a featureless blob? Cause all the egi's are featureless blobs. Its like a jello. Not necessarily saying its bad, but I'd rather have chibi Shiva than play-doh Shiva.

Anyway I'm not disappointed. Akh Morn is shiny, and the only reason I liked BLM more than SMN were the animations.

Dps matters little to me, because dps always changes and is rebalanced. Its much harder however, to change rotations and mechanics in the middle of an xpac, so I'm hoping new skills/cd's make that exciting. That's all I need.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

Yes in the form of glamours. They've already said that they've thought long and hard about it and that they think the best idea is to rebalance the current egi's. They said they're planning on adding a system where you can basically glamour your pet into a new egi. Shiva for instance would replace your summon II for the tank pet, or you could use topaz carbuncle.

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Yeah I think that sounds like the best way to tackle the Egi issue. I'm happy for the new Egi to be just glamours especially if it means they will be better balanced and therefore more useful. It also means not every SMN will have the same trio of Egi in play at any given time, adding a level of customization to the Egi. One SMN in a duty could be using Titan, while another is using Topaz Carby, or Alexander, Shiva, or whatever.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

You're right it is definitely something amazing. However not everyone has to agree on that, just coz people find the new Dreadwyrm Trance/Bahamut Aether stacks amazing, doesn't mean others will. It's all about personal taste and people who would rather see this new system be channeled through an Egi are not wrong in that view point as Egi are part of a SMN's repertoire.

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No, not everyone has agree on everything, but that will never happen regardless. Look at it this way though:
- Egi's getting new skills, already have Rouse/Spur, Enkindle. Each current Egi has a specific role. Tank, Melee/Single Target, Ranged/AOE.
- SMN has Dots, Aetherflow. (stemming off Arcanist)

Then you have a couple of different camps for what people wanted out of SMN
A More Focus of SMN being able to summon primals power
B Not wanting Egi's to have so much effect on SMN's performance
C Wanting the Egi's to seem more powerful.
D Not wanting SMN to be a poison dot class
E More variety of Egi's and Larger Size/More detail to make them appear more powerful
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So we get to keep the Base SMN playstyle that a lot of SMN like. As far as I can tell, SE has given players A, B, C, and E. Partially D by combining all 3 Dots into Tri-Disaster, and if they add a Egi Glamor system we could see more of E.

For B and C, you can picture the Bahamut system as a pseudo Egi that we channel power through, so it's still part of the SMNer and it's performance, but visibly you get a powerful Primal to command.

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Since no one can say yet how SMN will play it's hard to say how much SE has tried to please everyone who enjoys SMN. But by looking at the diversity of what people are looking for out of the class, I believe they have tried to touch on each aspect that makes up a SMN.

The funny part about all the summoner rage is that what they're asking for is basically what Black Mage would be if it was bound to an elemental wheel. like 9 summons, tons of attacks, all expected to be useful...huh?

There is really no need to bog the class down with even more summons when the current 3 have issues. And SE is rebalancing the entire class to fix these issues, on top of moving forward with the 60 job/class abilities.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

No, not everyone has agree on everything, but that will never happen regardless.

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Oh I agree with you. I just thought your initial comment was based on the notion of Trances being the new thing and the Egi getting phased out, a notion which I find totally unfounded. I personally don't identify with any of the camps you describe. I am happy for whatever new abilities SMN may get, as long as they stay true to the job (which I believe Bahamut Trance does) then I'm happy. However for Trances to totally replace Egi is a bad idea and won't work on the whole, since it will be faced with the exact same issue of there being no elemental wheel. So that is why I doubt we will see any new trances beyond the Bahamut Trance. Not only that but to expect new Trance moves to be the SMN's staple in terms of new moves from this point on is ridiculous. What every new level cap all we can expect is SMN to get a new Trance that works exactly the same as the last forever more until the game ends and the servers close?....don't think so some how people. Egi will still be a thing.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Oh I agree with you. I just thought your initial comment was based on the notion of Trances being the new thing and the Egi getting phased out...

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Ahh ok I see. Yeah, I don't think or hope that Egi's will ever get phased out. IMO the Trance is just SMN getting more fleshed out just like the rest of the jobs. MNK getting Meditate doesn't mean it will lose GL, it just gives a focused direction of development.

Because SCH and SMN stem off ACN I think it will take a long time before both those Jobs are fleshed out enough that people don't think of them as ACN with Heals, ACN with Fester. I don't think we'll see the Trance become the new SMN staple and have the Pets completely overshadowed as an afterthought. But I hope we see synergy developed between all SMN pets and skills.

i.e. Trance infused SMN, Trance infused Pets.
Example - hmmm Should I Ahk Morn this set of adds, or since Rouse/Spur/Enkindle is up should I put Garuda into Enrage Mode using my Trance stacks and just obliterate everything.
Or absorbing the pet/aether to get fully charged Trance

AOE Burst - Ahk Morn -> Absorb Pet -> SC Pet -> Rouse/Spur, Enrage using Trance - Enkindle

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

i.e. Trance infused SMN, Trance infused Pets.
Example - hmmm Should I Ahk Morn this set of adds, or since Rouse/Spur/Enkindle is up should I put Garuda into Enrage Mode using my Trance stacks and just obliterate everything.
Or absorbing the pet/aether to get fully charged Trance

AOE Burst - Ahk Morn -> Absorb Pet -> SC Pet -> Rouse/Spur, Enrage using Trance - Enkindle

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I like the sounds of this as it ties the Egi in nicely with the Trance ability without phasing out the Egi, which totally makes sense to me. I am looking forward to SMN's lvl60 abilities and I am looking forward to the Egi glamour system, hopefully it will be released in one of the post HW patches rather than a future expansion.

As has been said, without a variety of pets to SUMMON why bother having a SUMMONER class at all? Yes the trance sounds like it has potential but it very well be yet another case where they hype an ability and give it a kick ass name then we get it and does not live up to the hype. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned BLU and they nailed it. A summoner with no pets is a glorified blue mage. For those unfamiliar a blue mage learns abilities from enemies and is able to use those abilities against mobs. Which is EXACTLY what trance sounds like. Don't get me wrong I am happy to have trance but I am very guarded about it because it would just be one more over-promised, under-delivered disappointment to add to the list.

I honestly don't care one bit about the glamours, what is the point in having garuda look like carby, titan > ifrit? It's pointless.

To those saying it would be too much work on behalf of the dev team to come up with new egis and redo the way they look I ask if you ever played XI? XI is 13 years old. At launch there were a base 7 avatars, Garuda, Ifrit, Shiva, Ramuh, Leviathan, Carby and Fenrir (correct me if I am wrong on this). Later on they added Odin, Alexander, and Diabolos. On top of these you also had the elemental spirits you could summon (who remembers the glory of protect from Light Spirit Pact?) that I will discuss below. These summons we're some scaled down version that look nothing like the actually avatar they looked like the real deal. So, if SE had no problem being able to it with the technology they had 13 years ago (and had to be able to run on PS2) there is no reason why they should be unable to do it now. There was also no end of abilities to choose from. You had a long varied list of ability options. Each ability used mp - as did having the pet out - and each attack served a purpose. Control of you pet and management of abilities was the key to SMN, unlike in XIV where we have a pet and every so often we command it to do ONE move. I don't remember the exact timeline but at some point they split the abilities (Blood Pacts) to attack and ward. Attack being dealing damage, ward being granting a beneficial buff for party. There were of course cool downs for them and all relied on the summoner having mana. They also varied in strength based on summoning magic skill level, some couldn't be used unless your skill level was over a certain amount. If your smn skill lvl was low your pet wasn't going to even dent it. But like the EW we don't have magic skill levels either.

As for the elements that's an issue I agree on. 1.0 had the Elemental Wheel but when redesigning the game for ARR they decided the EW was too complicated for the average player. Most players have been using EW across a lot of games for an extended period of time. Even if someone had never played a game that had it before it really isn't that hard to figure out that water beats fire etc. Granted for SE to give us back the EW would be a nightmare since they gave half the elemental attacks to WHM leaving not a whole lot to work with for BLM and SMN. The aforementioned spirit summons are of zero use in XIV because of the lack EW so don't tell me they can't be utilized because I am very aware that they would be a waste of time without massive adjustments being made.

TLDR: SE lied, if they can do it in XI they can do it in XIV, fix the Elemental Wheel situation (not holding my breath)

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Originally Posted by Kuponutz

If they can do it in XI they can do it in XIV, fix the Elemental Wheel situation (not holding my breath)

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Its not about the Elemental Wheel. This is not FFXI, thats the problem.

FFXI SMN has a lore, a story and a purpose, and so it has the SMN in the FFXIV. The action in the game its too fast, to frenetic to have something similar to the Primals of FFXI in this game. The ideas behind them are too diferent to achieve something equal between them.

XI and XIV are very different games. The only similarity they have as far as game play is concerned is the ability to change jobs, something every other MMO lacks.

They are absolutely different in every other aspect. If you can't deal with that, and that every jobs game play has to be tuned around how this game is designed to be played, you might as well as give up on SMN.

And pretending SMN in XI was some golden experience. A watered down White Mage with very occasional spike damage that any other damage dealer could put out, with significantly higher frequency, be it via Ancient Magic or Weapon Skills.

Hey Kupo. It's Milt. How've you been?

All pleasantries aside, I must admit I'm extremely saddened by the fact that we don't get more egis. But In truth, I one of the few smns I know that continually rotates his pets during raid. Knowing that every pet has it's strenghts would mean trying to get all 4 pets (not counting titan) equal use. This would be a nightmare. The only ways to do this would be to give us something along the lines of a quick pet swap. Now if for some reason, 1 pet remains supreme, there'd be 0 reasons to use the rest. As such, we'd just be in the same situation. 4 pets but only using one. The same way in 2.0-2.2 there was almost no reason to use ifrit. I'm all for using the power of the more primals, but I prefer the new route. We literally channel the the power of the dreadwyrm. If instead of having random egis we'll never use, we can channel the power of more primals, I prefer that. True, the name SUmmoner alludes to something quite different, but This could be a very healthy compromise... I think. Also, we haven't seen all the new skills. Blm got so much love because it's Yoshi's class. Don't give up just yet. If you think I'm wrong, just remember 1 thing: most people would rather have contagion as a smn ability, rather than tied to Garuda. This is because most people don't care what egi they use.

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Originally Posted by gorezilla1

True, the name SUmmoner alludes to something quite different.

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Summoners in the series of FF games used to call the primals to do a variety of attacks and buffs, they were not pets until... FFX? Where Yuna called them as another super-team member? This aproach of the Dreadwyrm Trance remind me of those times.

And i like that.

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

Its not about the Elemental Wheel. This is not FFXI, thats the problem.

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Actually the fact there is no elemental wheel is entirely the problem why it is not so simple to implement new Egi play styles and give them all an equal reason to be used. The only reason it worked in XI was coz there was a proper elemental wheel that dictated what element was strong/weak against another, giving the SMN a reason to use all the Avatars. However in ARR there is no proper elemental wheel, yet each Primal/Egi still belongs to a particular element.

In ARR's current state it would be near impossible for SMN to get an Egi of every Primal and for it to have it's own unique uses (there is only so many types of pet play styles). So the only real options going forward are to introduce a proper Elemental Wheel so each Egi is strong/weak to a particular element. This of course would break BLM and force SE to rework it (never going to happen) Or they could just go with the Egi glamour option and work on the 3 Egi types (Ranged/Tank/Melee) which is actually way more efficient and cuts down development time without effecting BLM and allows new Egi to be released with a new Primal, as SMN will no longer have to wait for level cap increases for them to be released as they are just technical glamours.

I'd like to point out aside from the glorious age of blinding tanks with Akh Morn coming they DID say they are giving more skills to pets so there may be incentive to use more than just Ruda....

I posted on the other RIP Summoner thread that I was upset about not having new egi's, but now that this new approach of Ahk Morn with Bahamut Trance and what other's have said, I'm starting to see the other perspective in a better light. Who knows, the Bahamut Trance may evolve from Ahk Morn to Megaflare as we get stronger. This could give leeway in the future for other trances/signature moves of summons, with Shiva's Diamond Dust, Levi's Tsunami, etc. without being restricted to melee, ranged, and tank roles for egi's.

And it also holds true to the summoner role, as how summons were carried out in the classic FF series, where they do one strong signature attack, and that's it. Egi skins would be okay too, just to keep the FFXIV summoner utility, but this new direction can open good opportunities as well.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Actually the fact there is no elemental wheel is entirely the problem...

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If they add the elemental wheel they must rework not only the Egi, also the BLM (Fire and Ice mechanic) and theyr actions. And i would add the WHM on the list, too. (Stone and Aero). They would need to do a complete rework to the game. Also, if they add actions to each elemental Egi like in the FFXI, they would need to add buffs to the whole party on them to cast. (Like stoneskin in Titan, for example).

Again, the changes they talked about the Trance implies more dept in the Summoner on FFXIV lore, like it or not. Also, they stated on working to add new actions on the existing Egis to make them more viable.

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Originally Posted by Seiko769

I'd like to point out aside from the glorious age of blinding tanks with Akh Morn coming they DID say they are giving more skills to pets so there may be incentive to use more than just Ruda....

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^Exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Summon power or summon egi, it is still summon. Or it is supposed 2 be pet always that what you summon?

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Is diferent to "Summon" something or channel something power

For example conjurer channels the power of elementals and elements to heal without consuming their own lifeforce, u consider that "summoning the elementals" ? same for BLM and "the void"

Is not about "power" every job may loves to have a stupid "deadly pillar ray stuff nuke" but thats not how SMN supose to work.

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

thats not how SMN supose to work.

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Thats how it worked until they became pets.

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Originally Posted by Orlandeu

http://i.imgur.com/snkHrdL.gif

You're upset, why?

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You're asking why? I'm baffled. See that tiny little green thing next to the summoner, the one doing nothing while the summoner is doing some bad ass move? Yeah, that thing is the SUMMONER'S, SUMMON!!

I would've pulled the plug on SMN ages ago, change the name to something nerdy like Arithmetician and go with it instead of upsetting everyone who wants the full summoner fantasy, but can't get it as long as this job is linked to ACN.

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

If they add the elemental wheel they must rework not only the Egi, also the BLM (Fire and Ice mechanic) and theyr actions.

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Clearly you did not read my post as I said BLM would have to be reworked....that is precisely why I also said an elemental wheel will probably never happen as a result and yes WHM would also need a rework. Which just goes to show my point that the Egi glamours are probably the best and most efficient way development wise to bring us more Egi. Furthermore I am perfectly happy with the Bahamut Trance ability, I think it's awesome but it isn't going to replace the Egi or mean that the Egi will be removed. The Egi will still exist for abilities such as Enkindle as well as added DPS if nothing else.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Clearly you did not read my post as I said BLM would have to be reworked...

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Ouch, my bad there.

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

Ouch, my bad there.

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Lol indeed. You're right though ARR is not XI and without XI's elemental wheel we can't have a SMN that works the same way, and that's not a bad thing. Why should SMN be confined to a single box. Also as you say the Bahamut Trance works with the SMN's lore in ARR, so it's the perfect way to give SMN some burst DPS. I am interested to see what new abilities will come to the Egi also coz it would be great to have them all more balanced and viable.

What happened with the Egi thing? I was really really hoping to make new changes (good ones) to the Egis.. even I thought the new action video would show us a Egi or even new actions for they. Now. I was truly disappointed.

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Originally Posted by gorezilla1

Blm got so much love because it's Yoshi's class.

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Funny Alei coz I was telling Naki that all night least night, lol.

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

If they add the elemental wheel they must rework not only the Egi, also the BLM (Fire and Ice mechanic) and theyr actions. And i would add the WHM on the list, too. (Stone and Aero). They would need to do a complete rework to the game. Also, if they add actions to each elemental Egi like in the FFXI, they would need to add buffs to the whole party on them to cast. (Like stoneskin in Titan, for example).

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Did you even read what I and Solo wrote?

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Lol indeed. You're right though ARR is not XI and without XI's elemental wheel we can't have a SMN that works the same way, and that's not a bad thing. Why should SMN be confined to a single box. Also as you say the Bahamut Trance works with the SMN's lore in ARR, so it's the perfect way to give SMN some burst DPS. I am interested to see what new abilities will come to the Egi also coz it would be great to have them all more balanced and viable.

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Honestly I was hoping for an Egi that was pure AoE to help with speed runs. Guess it was a pipe dream ; ;

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Originally Posted by Seiko769

I'd like to point out aside from the glorious age of blinding tanks with Akh Morn coming they DID say they are giving more skills to pets so there may be incentive to use more than just Ruda....

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Actually, Yoshi-P didn't say they're giving the Egi more skills. If you could link me to where you think he said that, I'll double check it, but when listening to the Japanese on the live letter (because the interpreter wasn't exactly on point, no offense to her), I heard nothing of the sort.

I'm personally excited for the day when all the people hyped over Akh Morn realize that the novelty will quickly wear off, as it did with Circle of Scorn or Flare.

Also I really do hope that they bother to give SMN more abilities from other Primals if they're going to go that direction, rather than literally just one from Bahamut. I'm fine with them completely shifting focus to making the SMN more about channeling the Eidolon into themselves (like Lady Iceheart does), but just having one for that in the expansion... is pretty disappointing.

And by that I mean LOL AKH MORN XDXDXDXDXD

Where is my mega flare? Lets put BLM to shame.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Actually, Yoshi-P didn't say they're giving the Egi more skills. If you could link me to where you think he said that, I'll double check it, but when listening to the Japanese on the live letter (because the interpreter wasn't exactly on point, no offense to her), I heard nothing of the sort.

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http://www.twitch.tv/finalfantasyxiv/v/5280683 Start from 2 hours and 40 mins. He talks about bolstering the pets and adding actions.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Where is my mega flare? Lets put BLM to shame.

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Don't dream small. I'm thinking for LB3, we do a full dreadwyrm trance and grow wings of Aether and then Terraflare the arena. Just saying: Pls be excited for E3.

I don't really understand this. SMNs are considered, by most, to be the weakest job right now. Why are you complaining about which pets you can choose from, rather than being happy they you may actually be on par with everyone else?

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Originally Posted by gorezilla1

http://www.twitch.tv/finalfantasyxiv/v/5280683 Start from 2 hours and 40 mins. He talks about bolstering the pets and adding actions.

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I figured that would be it. I listened again, and I hear him saying rather than adding pets, in the long term it'd be better to focus on adding to the summoner him or herself. The English QA summary also says as much.

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...instead of adding more pets, we felt it better to give more use to the job by adding actions to summoner.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2975182

A lack of new Egi abilities will not surprise me in the coming months after the expansion. Maybe in 4.0.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you're upset because you're not getting new worthless pets so you can only use 1 viable one? While instead they are making the current ones more viable, and oh yeah, you LITERALLY CHANNEL BAHAMUT TO SPACE LASER YOUR ENEMIES!

But ya, no new pointless pets is totally a legit reason to get upset.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you're upset because you're not getting new worthless pets so you can only use 1 viable one? While instead they are making the current ones more viable, and oh yeah, you LITERALLY CHANNEL BAHAMUT TO SPACE LASER YOUR ENEMIES!

But ya, no new pointless pets is totally a legit reason to get upset.

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I'm assuming this is addressed to me? I'm sorry but your assumptions are misguided. Feel free to skim through my post history if you think I'm bluffing. It would have been nice, but I don't care that we're not getting new pets.

I'm all for improved Egi (and I don't mean aesthetically), and generally more interaction with them in combat, but we're not getting that. Sure, channeling Bahamut's great, and I'll continue playing summoner, but I'd be lieing if I said I didn't think this was a missed opportunity to do something a little more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honestly I was hoping for an Egi that was pure AoE to help with speed runs. Guess it was a pipe dream ; ;

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Oh yeah that's fair enough, but as Yoshi said all that would be is one extra Egi....but then what? If SMN is ever going to be a "true" SMN (as some people would say) then it needs a wide selection of Egi. Sooner or later SE would run out of unique roles to give the Egi and would have to turn to this glamours system. Also just coz they introduce this glamour system does not mean another Egi play style could come later, once the current Egi play styles are actually balanced and more viable.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you're upset because you're not getting new worthless pets so you can only use 1 viable one? While instead they are making the current ones more viable, and oh yeah, you LITERALLY CHANNEL BAHAMUT TO SPACE LASER YOUR ENEMIES!

But ya, no new pointless pets is totally a legit reason to get upset.

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Different people want different things, and expansions don't roll out all that often. For them to say no new pets and one day you might get a pet glamor, but not on expansion release, on a stream showing off the expansion....yea. And I really don't see what space lasers at the end of your rotation is going to do to help with the shortcoming SMN can have. I feel like SMN will be in a better spot for the expansion than they are with the current patch, but that is because the only way to go is up at this point.

It should be noted that SMN wasn't so rare before 2.4...

Everyone seem to think, or just have chosen to forget that before 2.4 there were quite a few SMNs around. At least on my server...

It wasn't the most popular by any means, but who cares? MNK is pretty rare too, but by no means boring or bad.

The numbers of SMNs dwindled with 2.4, as they became heavily under-powered compared to other jobs. NIN coming out probably played a role too, but even though SMN are lacking, people liked them, and only left because of that lack of power.

They have kinda fixed their biggest problem, which was running out of MP too early... but they still are weak on DPS compared to their counterparts, and even more importantly, they lack any burst damage at all. They also are behind on AoE damage(which they should, but just comparing). They're behind on everything in other words.

The expansion looks to be fixing all those problems, and I think the number or SMNs in the game will rise again. It won't die just because people are whining on this forum. There are tons of people that doesn't bother to post about it on the forum.