The whole Summoner "has been re-worked" is sad

The could rework summoner like this get rid of the whole pet system and no you can still summon it cause well looks and here's the idea.

Pet will be tied to smn like right behind them like 2 feet behind them no more hp for them.

Smn will gain different ability's based on what pet is out would have to rework Titan but why dose any one really need a pet for tanking.

Once one pet is out you get a number of stacks called something along the line of lets call it evokers wrath for now to use a egis assigned ability they must use one stack of evokers wrath yes you need to select it no more setting them on sic. Once all stacks of evokers wrath are depleted the egi will vanish.

once the egi vanishes you will get a 30 second debuff called lets call it evokers calm can't re summon in this state start making use of you arcanist spells people.

Once evokers calm is down you will gain a 5 second buff called evokers rebirth you can quik summon a egi with out the cast bar.

I think these changes could build a real summoner and make better use of swapping the egis there by making them more useful. Then every one can have the summoner that this great game deserves.

Between Bahamut and Chakra stacks, I think someone on the developer team has just discovered secondary resource stacks and seems to like it very much. Except it's not something you're supposed to give to every class because it doesn't help separate classes mechanically...

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Originally Posted by Galand

Fixing Summoners shouldnt be hard.

1. Let bane spread dots to all mobs, not a limit of 3, the new tri-diaster did NOT mention a AOE aspect
2. Get rid of Miasma 2's melee range requirement.
3. Make Shadow flare better, more damage or an added effect
4. Make contagion a SMN spell, not a pet spell
5. Give the Egis either more health or better durability, they should not drop dead during every boss fight nor should I have to manually move them around the battlefield

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Well, the target limit is probably to prevent obscene DPS jumps (which is what normally happens with classes with DoTs that can spread said DoTs to any and all mobs in range). I agree with Miasma II. Also with Contagion becoming a SMN spell (really, why hasn't this been done yet?).

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Also, if the developers of FF11 can find a way to have 13 summons and 8 elementals, I dont get why these developers can't do the same. Look at Warcraft for example, their Warlocks are basically the same class and they have what 7 demons all with different uses?

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This is the route I expected them to take with egis. I would limit SMN to the 6 elemental egis (Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva) and then start adding the custom skins/glamours. Egi ability count is fine and should have been left alone, because all you're doing is removing the ability to add more egis in the future (again, SMN is missing 3 egis).

Assuming Titan is Voidwalker, Garuda is Imp, Ifrit is Felguard, SMN is missing Felhunter (melee-range debuffer/silencer), Succubus (melee-range CC), and something like Infernal (pet with a damage aura).

I absolutely and completely don't get why people are so angry. The bahamut invocation looks pretty cool.

As for blah blah rotations, bin them, bin all thought about it. Everyone is going to have to rework their rotation at 60, it's no surprise and until we see the effects ourselves we cannot judge the effectiveness.

as for Tri-Bind and tri-Disaster, the former gets a better name, the latter will assumably be best used when your dots are about to fall off or as a nearly instant bane/fester combo (Yes, this is a rotation thought, but not a QQ my rotation one).

not only that SMN needs a gameplay rework. this job needs an appearance rework too. scrap the whole Egi and give them real summons.

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Originally Posted by Raeletta

I absolutely and completely don't get why people are so angry. The bahamut invocation looks pretty cool.

As for blah blah rotations, bin them, bin all thought about it. Everyone is going to have to rework their rotation at 60, it's no surprise and until we see the effects ourselves we cannot judge the effectiveness.

as for Tri-Bind and tri-Disaster, the former gets a better name, the latter will assumably be best used when your dots are about to fall off or as a nearly instant bane/fester combo (Yes, this is a rotation thought, but not a QQ my rotation one).

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Because it's a pet class? Key word pet.

All the skills for Summoner as well as other jobs won't be shown until E3 which is a few days before early access. Bahamut Invocation is cool since it adds bursts.

It is clear by some of your complaints that you did not listen as carefully as you should have so lets look at them closer. Maybe part of your confusion was because they insist on using a translator that clearly has no clue about the subject matter. They should have just let Ben translate it all. (poor guy)

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Originally Posted by Galand

If tri-diaster lived up to its name, it would be too powerful, so they made it a lolspell... you will get "tri-diaster" which will put 3 dots up at once

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You honestly see this as a bad thing? To me its something that can be a bad thing or a good thing. It all depends on one thing... The Resource it requires to cast. If the new Tri-Disaster is another Aetherflow charge then it really isn't as good as advertised.

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Originally Posted by Galand

No new egis, current egis will get more abilities.

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No new egis, correct. Egis getting more abilities... not so much. They clearly stated that instead of working on new egis with "similar abilities" they were giving the summoner more abilities themselves. This is a GOOD thing. Yes, our pets really do need a huge rework. Contagion needs to be a summoner ability and not a pet ability. But instead of adding Levi, Shiva and Ramuh-egi's with pretty much the same abilities only reskinned, they focused on giving us interesting abilities for us and not more abilities to our Condiment Turret. Instead we are being promised what basically boils down to "Pet Glamours" to come in the future (hopefully 3.1). If done correctly, this will be awesome. A lot of former XI summoners long for our blue squirrel back. Others of us remember the days of running around with Ramuh, Titan, or Garuda in tow. Mabe we will get cool looking "avatars" instead of egi's.

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Originally Posted by Galand

While you attack you will gain "Bahamaut Aether Stacks" and after so many stacks you spend them to have Bahamaut basically take possession of you and you will be able to use some of his direct attacks.

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A lot of the community saw this coming.. Well not this exactly, but we have been seeing the writing on the wall since 2.4 and Lady Iceheart and then again with Phoenix(t12). A widely held belief was we were not going to get new pets but we were going to get the ability to channel Primal power in someway. I will be honest, I would have rather seen them let us choose our Primal. But being able to Ahk Morn is going to be pretty nice.

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Originally Posted by Galand

Fixing Summoners shouldnt be hard.

1. Let bane spread dots to all mobs, not a limit of 3, the new tri-diaster did NOT mention a AOE aspect
2. Get rid of Miasma 2's melee range requirement.
3. Make Shadow flare better, more damage or an added effect
4. Make contagion a SMN spell, not a pet spell
5. Give the Egis either more health or better durability, they should not drop dead during every boss fight nor should I have to manually move them around the battlefield.

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I dont disagree with you on most of these things. Well... #2 is just dumb. Miasma 2 is designed to be an AoE used at melee range. Either you like it or you don't but its exactly what it should be. Shadow Flare is the exact opposite. Its only problem is its cast time and the fact that the Added Effect: Slow doesnt work on anything of real importance. Slow in fact is not nearly as powerful as it should be. Blind and Slow need to be reworked but thats not a SMN issue thats a larger game design issue.

Your final comments about how they can't add pets that all have different ueses.. Well I agree with you here. But there is something extremely clear to me (and I think to a lot of other players). Quite simply, they simply do not understand how to create pets that work well in this game without them simply being Turrets. When the expansion comes out, we will have 3 pet classes, the pets will be, Ranged Turret (garuda), Melee Turret (Ifrit/Titan), Healer Turret (Eos/Selene), Ranged Turret (Machinist). They are all simply turrets. In XI we had Avatar's that each had its own flavor based on their element. That game had elements that mattered. XIV does not. I am not here to defend the Devs. I want this as much as you do. I miss running around with my Ramuh hitting stuff with Chaotic Strike while my other friend was using Levi and Spinning Diving things to death. XI had very little PvE balance and had no "real" PvP. YoshiP has a belief that everything needs to be as balanced as possible. So we are only going to get turrets.

As for WoW... well to be honest Warlock pets have little "flavor" moves but they are there for certain reasons. The AoE Turret, The Fireball Turret, the Melee Turret. They have a lot more flavor and cool factor than Egi's ever will for sure. But thats because they are the real demons and not fake avatar's like Egis. If you want to complain about something go back to that age old complaint.

I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid. I loved what I saw today, but what we saw was extremely minor and didn't explain anything (unless you are a black mage, which most summoners are after FCOB anyways. :/) I'm torn at the moment. Today's "peak" (because it was just a peak and not what any of us really wanted. Please Bayohne do a Duty Commenced and give us a more in depth look at all the jobs, it is time!) caused me to have a second thought about my plan to move back to tanking full time. I don't want to, but if we are going to be relegated to the bottom again and don't have anything "new and fun" then tanking it is.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

you do and like all but 1 FF game they are worthless.

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Eeeh... More like 5.

FFVII they are pretty powerful (Knights of the Round...).
FFVIII they are powerful, used for junctioning, and can be used to tank damage.
FFIX they can be incredibly powerful, and Garnet/Dagger's Trance makes them more useful (Atomos is broken if you have enough Amethyst).
FFX they are incredibly powerful and are useful for killing anything too powerful for your regular characters. They are like super charged, OP party members.
FFXIII they are useful for knocking Turtles down so you can spam Death with Vanille for easy wins (also fully healing your party is awesome).

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Originally Posted by niwaar

But instead of adding Levi, Shiva and Ramuh-egi's with pretty much the same abilities only reskinned

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Again, drawing on Warlock design, they wouldn't be the same abilities. Felhunters, for example, had an ability that dispelled buffs on their target and an ability that interrupted spellcasting. In FFXIV terms, you could have Leviathan-egi do this, dispelling stuff like protect and stoneskin off player characters in PvP while in PvE they would be able to interrupt caster mobs along with BRD and PLD.

By comparison, Succubus's main draw was the ability to CC using Seduction, a channeled effect that incapacitated the target. Assuming you want charm, this would be perfect for Ramuh-egi (Ramuh EX already does something like this). If you just want it to be a CC thing then Shiva-egi would be fine too (a channeled ability that traps the target in ice). There was and still is room for utility and other egi's. It's regrettable that they haven't gone that route.

Like Duelle points out, I feel like they're cutting a few useful pet types, but they could still add those types in the future or I suppose clump a whole bunch of utility into one archetype (which is uh.. hmm? lol) .

The new spells were certaintly super flashy and the Egi glamour gives prospect to maybe a few more "fancier summons", and that sounds good. Don't know why it is so popular to say but most, and I've read a lot of these egi threads, do not want "planet sized, 4k texture, 10 trillion poly" egis lol. Personally would like to see esper like Egi glamour (FFXII), if lore can explain the significant visual difference.

Personally, this made me excited to actually give SMN a try. I was initially turned off from it after finding that we couldn't use Carby as a SMN, but this whole Bahamut thing looks new and interesting and fun and makes me want to try playing the class.

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Originally Posted by Ecks007

The only Egi that needs a re-work is Ifrit. They buffed him, but he's still not nearly as viable as Garuda to dps with.

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Ifrit is much better dps than Garuda and has been for a while.

I've seen two major complaints in this thread.

1) Summons lack diversity and I want more.

2) I play a Summoner so I want my summons to be the major source of my DPS.


In answer to 1:

Diversity in pet classes is exciting on paper and as far as cosmetics go is quite possible. In actual functionality and stats though its an entirely different situation. People point at WoW as an example of diversity. The thing with WoW though is Warlocks almost exclusively use only one demon pet based off spec in almost all situation because its the optimal one. Hunter pets are functionally almost identical. They have a basic attack and then a buff ability that is a common group buff that multiple other specs and classes do as well and said buff is effectively passive. Hunter pet diversity comes from appearances.

No one will use an inferior pet and balancing many pets to be diverse and all equal is an unrealistic goal and one I have never seen a MMO successfully do.

In answer to 2:

Designing gameplay around pet classes where the pet is the primary source of damage has a couple of pretty difficult challenges.

Firstly is the issue of gameplay. If a pet is doing the majority of the attacks are they all dependent on commands from the summoner or are they automated? If the pet does too much of the work the summoners play style will be dull and require little effort on the summoners part. If the pet does require direct control to attack the summoner is stuck managing their own positioning and actions at the same time as managing their pet because of the second issue, the AI.

Pet AI is always a limiting factor on pets. Pets stand in AoEs, attack things you might not want them to attack and generally don't think much for themselves. Pets in MMOs are notoriously stupid. Devs adapt for this by doing things like giving pets immunities to particular attacks and passive and active controls that can be set. However if the bulk of damage is coming from said Pet things like survivability become extremely important. If the pet dies or suffers negative status effects the pet class is screwed. If the pets are practically immortal it allows the pet class to ignore mechanics other classes cant which then becomes a balance issue. Either the pet class is balanced around fights with mechanics they can ignore in which class they will likely be underpowered in fights without such mechanics or they are balanced the other way in which case they become overpowered in the ignore mechanic fights.


In the end I'd say the best bet is for people to wait and see what they actually have done/have planned.

What about just making pet immortal, unless owner dies? Casters still have to dodge AoEs.

They did re work Summoner they gave us the ability to channel Bahamut which is cool. I hope they give us the ability to channel other primals as well and do a trance with the other 6 Primals. This is what Summoner needed.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

All the skills for Summoner as well as other jobs won't be shown until E3 which is a few days before early access. Bahamut Invocation is cool since it adds bursts.

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Akiza said something positive? Is the world going to end in a few days?

why is it sad that move was so badass dudes

Could Having a Group of summons sest of like Titian Garuda and Ifrit is your fist summon and have a second group like Ramuh Leviathan and Shiva as a Second Summon (so you would have two at the same time)would that not work ? (just an idea)

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

you mean worthless? ohh nooooo

p.s ff 6 7 8 9 10 12 will like to speak to you about worthless summons.

p.s.s i forgot about 4 rydia's summons were horrible compared to her op black magic

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~taps your shoulder~ I believe Anima and the Magus Sisters from the international version would like to have a word with you on uselessness. Heck even normal Magus Sisters without the 6 hit ultimate were game breaking

Come on SMN guys ! You get to Summon Bahamuts Head ! Get 3 Bahamut ether stacks and use the al mighty Akh Morn !

Isn't that enough?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

No one will use an inferior pet and balancing many pets to be diverse and all equal is an unrealistic goal and one I have never seen a MMO successfully do.

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So.. why is it unrealistic? They already have to balance multiple jobs, so I want to know exactly what the difference is between working on a grand scheme across the entirety of the game compared to the small scale of working across a few skills on your summons?

There is none. Zero. The only issue with balancing exists in the minds of those who don't even try.

The pet's are so barely distinguishable from each other at present. The only distinguishing feature is Garuda's Contagion because all of the remaining skills are just attack variants. Titan is a tank that can't tank. He does so little damage that his enmity boost counts for naught. Ifrit is a punching bag for every close ranged skill in the game and often a liability due to his need to close the gap. Garuda is the only ranged combatant we have and also happens to be the only one with any unique traits.

People who say it can't be reworked so that we have a real choice in summons simply have no imagination. Here's a clue: Give them all unique skills which benefit you in different situations. See? How hard was that. It should normal for us to swap summons in the middle of a battle to use a new skill not just use the same one every single time. They could significantly shorten the recast and force a recast timer should a pet die prematurely.

Sorry to pick on your post, but I'm so tired of hearing people complain that things would be 'unbalanced' one way when they clearly aren't balanced as it is!

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

What about just making pet immortal, unless owner dies? Casters still have to dodge AoEs.

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If they did this then players could just go in as a full party of summoners and sit back having tea and occasionally dodging AoEs and interacting with whatever mechanics the fight had while their invincible pets just attacked the enemies. If one player went down then literally everyone else there could swiftcast revive them and they could immediately swiftcast resummon once they were up.....

Now that I think about it, make this happen. I like tea, and playing the game is too much trouble......

Screw this summoing bahamut BS!

I just want new pets lol hope they make them waaay more powerful and invincible and full sized that deal the same damage as their real boss forms LMAO xd :L >_> :DDDDD

I had a lot typed out, I'll just say I'm a bit let down.

2yrs in some ppl really need to accept, that SMN won't be what they are dreaming of. just go for another class or learn to play this great job as it is designed.

I think the reason they do not want to release new Egis is because of balancing problems.

Even if we have new Egis, SMN would still be relying on the Miasma, Bio2, Bio combo, and thus putting in new Egis wouldn't be much of a "rework"

If their description of Tri-Disaster inflicting all three debuffs at the same time is correct and accurate, it would have a huge impact on our gameplay where we can actually do something else other than waiting for casting times for the three.

Plus we're getting some sort of Bahamut Mode, where we get stacks and can deal some kind of High damage in that stance using those stacks. So, tri-disaster combined with Bahamut Mode and you get a rework where SMNs dont have to fling ruins all the damn time OR depend on the Egis too much for damage.

Plus.... we can change our Egis appearance now yay!

Didn't they only say that tri-disaster was getting a rework? I feel like I heard them saying SMN was getting a heavy rework was a mistranslation somewhere.

I actually really like the looks of the new changes to SMN, it looks great and SMN re skins means more people can be a bit more unique as you can use a skin you like without it effecting the egi's performance.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

I think the reason they do not want to release new Egis is because of balancing problems.

Even if we have new Egis, SMN would still be relying on the Miasma, Bio2, Bio combo, and thus putting in new Egis wouldn't be much of a "rework"

If their description of Tri-Disaster inflicting all three debuffs at the same time is correct and accurate, it would have a huge impact on our gameplay where we can actually do something else other than waiting for casting times for the three.

Plus we're getting some sort of Bahamut Mode, where we get stacks and can deal some kind of High damage in that stance using those stacks. So, tri-disaster combined with Bahamut Mode and you get a rework where SMNs dont have to fling ruins all the damn time OR depend on the Egis too much for damage.

Plus.... we can change our Egis appearance now yay!

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the issue is, SMN will not be as SMN but remain as warlock-style

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

So.. why is it unrealistic? They already have to balance multiple jobs, so I want to know exactly what the difference is between working on a grand scheme across the entirety of the game compared to the small scale of working across a few skills on your summons?

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Comparing them to jobs is a bad comparison. Jobs are designed to work with in conjunction with each other (which is why 4x monk is not the best setup despite monk doing the most DPS)

Egis are one or the other, unless your party is running two Summoners. Point still stands that people will determine the best pet out of six to use and only one or two will likely ever see use, leaving the other four to become current Tri-Disaster status.

when low level mobs have things like Blaze and Ice Spikes and your summons do not, you should be questioning the devs.

Personally, I really can't see us being allowed to spam cast 3 dots at once indefinitely, the cynic in me says there will be some sort of lengthy cool down to act as penalty.
Where does bane and fester fit in ? Will they still remain relevant ?

Really disappointed that we don't get any new egi's.

The devs seem to have gone down the warlock route from a certain other game.

Meh they'll be giving us chaos bolts next ;p

For now, I'll give em the benefit of the doubt and see how it plays

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Ifrit is a punching bag for every close ranged skill in the game and often a liability due to his need to close the gap.

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And yet most SMN's I know use him for Final Coil, since he's better than Garuda. Especially if a MNK (Dragon Kick) and and NIN/WAR (Dancing Edge/Storm's Eye) are in the party.

Just some random thoughts:
1-> What if you have only familiar skills, so each attack skill and defence skill is in fact a summon?
2-> What if most if not all are instant summonings?
3-> What if those summons do more actions the longer you stay still and write formulas into air?
4-> What if the initial attack or action is the main aim (lets say damage on boss) and the longer you sommoned it the addidional actions are in effect or the more enemies will be hit one by one (debuffs or buffs)
5-> What if each Familiar have its own cooldown (no global cooldowns!), so you have to strategically choose which egi when...
(Edit: 6 -> What if those additional effects while staying still are not automatic actions, but you can control them? similar to skillbarchange while riding magitec or gobbue?)

Before you flame about moving mecahnics: I played all content in this game as main class SMN

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Originally Posted by Joshyuchiha

FROM THE DIGEST SUMMARY
"However, I’m sure many are wondering if they will have to continue looking at the same egi forever, but we are planning to add a system in the future that will allow you to change the appearance of your egis, including Carbuncle, but their stats will remain the same."

Egi glamour so most likely new egi appearances plus carbuncles! :D

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SMN: "GO GO CASTER-PET TITAN!"
Titan: *lobs tiny rocks at enemies*

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Originally Posted by Eul

IMO, even they change Tri-Disaster to Tri-Bind, it still useless (And "somehow" useful in PvP). It's consuming MP alot compared with BLM's Blizzard II.

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I know D: It's like...
NPC: "OH YEAH! Here's your awesome new spell, you master Summoner you! Blizzard II Tri-Disaster!"
SMN: "...wait a minute. I could bind enemies thirty levels ago!" *casts Blizzard II on NPC* "This spell sucks! D: I thought I'd be getting something GOOD at this level."
NPC: "Oh, you're right. It doesn't really live up to its name, does it. Well, I have the solution. Your spell is now called Tri-Bind! See? It doesn't suck anymore, does it? :D"

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Originally Posted by Nestama

And yet most SMN's I know use him for Final Coil, since he's better than Garuda. Especially if a MNK (Dragon Kick) and and NIN/WAR (Dancing Edge/Storm's Eye) are in the party.

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This is true. I use him, and swift cast in Garuda for my contagion usage. I do favor Garuda in fights where I lack a nin/war and monk however. I can't always have these two/three jobs present, esp in normal dungeons.

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Originally Posted by SirSaber

Come on SMN guys ! You get to Summon Bahamuts Head ! Get 3 Bahamut ether stacks and use the al mighty Akh Morn !

Isn't that enough?

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http://i.imgur.com/gnubjsJ.jpg

Anyways. I'll just go back to pretending summoner was never added into the game. Scholar is way more interesting anyway. There is no wait and see for me. What little hope I held onto was used up on this reveal. No hope left to wait and see with. Too bad too. Summoner af2 looks awesome. Way better than the crap that was summoner af1 lol

What can Ya do ƪ(‾ε‾“)ʃ

I'm main smn and I'm pretty happy with what they done with it. But I think contagion should a smn ability not a pet one

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Originally Posted by Mature

I'm main smn and I'm pretty happy with what they done with it. But I think contagion should a smn ability not a pet one

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I so agree with this. I was hoping they would have moved this off garuda and onto smn, but hopes dashed. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by Nestama

And yet most SMN's I know use him for Final Coil, since he's better than Garuda. Especially if a MNK (Dragon Kick) and and NIN/WAR (Dancing Edge/Storm's Eye) are in the party.

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Ifrit is a melee pet so naturally it does well in Melee friendly content like Final Coil. Outside of that Garuda still has way superior AOE capabilities, more survivability, requires less micromanaging and has utility knockback.