Too much, now too little. AutoAttack

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Originally Posted by AsterBarnivere

Same here, my Server is pretty much dead, all of my friends are gone, and hardly ANYONE talks on the server besides shouting for repairs (To which no one replies) and ever since AA was implemented, a few people were optimistic saying "It'll bring players back! We can talk to each-other now! *As if you couldn't using the old system* There's gonna be Depth to the battles now!" When it only did the opposite, the only class AA is benefiting now is ARCH because people now have little to no reason to play the other classes because ARCH is OP.

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Besaid is full of people, I am always getting new people into my shell so I don't know where your seeing this decline but I don't see it. ah well

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Originally Posted by AsterBarnivere

Last time I checked, there is no right or wrong way to play a game.

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You are absolutely wrong and I'm sorry. I guess if what you want is to watch your auto attack instead of using your other useful abilities, and then be bored, and then come here and complain about it... then well you are absolutely playing the right way too!

I think though you are playing wrong, and that is why you are having this problem. It is absurd that you would come and loudly complain about the issue you are creating for yourself by not using abilities you could be using instead of just "sitting there doing nothing". Congratulations you are awesome at making yourself bored, but that has not the fault of the "slow" combat system since you are simply choosing to make it slow for you.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

and in the same aspect you were complaining about spamming one was a problem. if you were spamming 1 you were playing it wrong with the old system.

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The difference between the way I played then and the way I play now of course is that I use a greater variety of abilities more often, sometimes much closer together for burst damage or some more evenly spread out. Auto attack frees you up to do more since a certain amount of your basics are abstracted, and the removal of stamina means you have much more freedom to choose whether to group abilities or spread them out.

The new combat system has me playing "faster and, involving more strategy, based on a more logical flow." I don't think there is any question that it is better, faster, and more flexible unless someone deliberately sat there and neglected a portion of their abilities.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

You are absolutely wrong and I'm sorry. I guess if what you want is to watch your auto attack instead of using your other useful abilities, and then be bored, and then come here and complain about it... then well you are absolutely playing the right way too!

I think though you are playing wrong, and that is why you are having this problem. It is absurd that you would come and loudly complain about the issue you are creating for yourself by not using abilities you could be using instead of just "sitting there doing nothing". Congratulations you are awesome at making yourself bored, but that has not the fault of the "slow" combat system since you are simply choosing to make it slow for you.



The difference between the way I played then and the way I play now of course is that I use a greater variety of abilities more often, sometimes much closer together for burst damage or some more evenly spread out. Auto attack frees you up to do more since a certain amount of your basics are abstracted, and the removal of stamina means you have much more freedom to choose whether to group abilities or spread them out.

The new combat system has me playing "faster and, involving more strategy, based on a more logical flow." I don't think there is any question that it is better, faster, and more flexible unless someone deliberately sat there and neglected a portion of their abilities.

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uhhh id say it was just your own perception, unless your are talking about gld.

3 skills per class got huge cool downs going from the length of the animation time, to anywhere from 30-90 seconds. AA of the basic attack went from the time of your animation to 3-4.7 seconds.
cool downs on some non basic skills were lengthened.
almost all other cool downs stay the same.

Now stamina disappearing makes some things feel faster like when you chain together non tp abilities or use real heavy stamina skills back to back, but when you take basic skills and put them on a 60 second timer you are taking that speed right back from the player, and that control.

Its a lot less strategic now, you dont have too many strategic action choices anymore. before you could choose when to burst dmg, and when not to, and the basic skills for most classes provided for most some pretty decent choices strategy wise. There was strategy in when you let yourself run out of stamina, and how to make use of that time. (like dodging WS or communicating with your party during stamina droughts) weather to wait for a lot of stamina or use it as soon as you get it.

this is strategy predicting your enemy and controlling your resources, ill tell you know that your playstyle changed greatly when you wanted to solo a 450 exp eft, or 300 exp wolf, or a vulture (if they were 7-10 levels higher)
for pug. basic attacks was deciding to be offensive or defensive, to hold for counters or go wild with flurry, when to get off the flurry damage/tp machine and let off WS.

One of my major problems with the current system, is it isnt as well planned out, or as logical. It really does feel like its just added on, in a game where it makes little sense. There is no synergy within the classes anymore. A lot of skills feel really illogical now.
What is pugilist basic skill play mechanic now? what is the pugilist bringing to the table? what he used to have is this slick little, almost hidden method of increasing its offense, or it defense, going from a counter/evasion heavy focus to an attack heavy focus, or going somewhere in the middle.

How does marauder work now? before a marauder got great benefit to attacking enemies closely grouped, it was slow one on one, but got huge tp for multiple mobs, and thus could unleash a lot of dmg.

lnc is the one who the new system serves the most, because even though they destroyed their peirce tp and dmg buffs, they made the game overall a tp burn for most DD, which is essentially what drg excels at. Now every DD is required to get invigorate, and need someone throwing comrade on.



Now, i realize that this system is pretty incomplete, It was just added, maybe they will turn around and design new synergies into the jobs, and make them make sense and have a logical purpose within the system, but right now the battle system goes against the design of pugilists and mrd, and takes out one strong element of lnc.

Its not like you cant kill things, its just as if... there is no science to it anymore? you just get AA and use as many different tp skills as you can in rotation. apply skills that increase tp gain, they are the most important, this is the plan for any DD now, its pretty boring.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Its not like you cant kill things, its just as if... there is no science to it anymore? you just get AA and use as many different tp skills as you can in rotation. apply skills that increase tp gain, they are the most important, this is the plan for any DD now, its pretty boring.

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You don't use your basic abilities? You only use invigorate? You can choose to simplify any system like that, what was the system before (dd wise) but build TP and use TP abilities while not wasting any stamina?

Difference is your time was taken up by more basic attacks before, and now you can use that time to do other things, those things are not confined by your stamina bar only their timers. You have a wide variety of abilities to use, there is not one single melee class I play where I sit there and watch the TP bar rise with auto attack. So 40 LNC, 43 MRD, 50 ARC, 50 PUG, 38 GLA so that's all of them and most not even at cap.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

You don't use your basic abilities? You only use invigorate? You can choose to simplify any system like that, what was the system before (dd wise) but build TP and use TP abilities while not wasting any stamina?

Difference is your time was taken up by more basic attacks before, and now you can use that time to do other things, those things are not confined by your stamina bar only their timers. You have a wide variety of abilities to use, there is not one single melee class I play where I sit there and watch the TP bar rise with auto attack. So 40 LNC, 43 MRD, 50 ARC, 50 PUG, 38 GLA so that's all of them and most not even at cap.

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The thing is the basic attacks werent simple before. they were where a lot of your class uniqueness and maximizing your skills came in by using your basic skills in synergy. MRD is the perfect example, the broad swing and full swing compliments their steadfast and AOE tanking/dd hate/ systems
lancers peirce and move constantly to stay out of range, and to maximize tp and dmg from piercing multi enemies
etc

for me its not so much the sitting and watching, as much as the lack of any playstyle difference, the lack of in class synergies, and the fact that the system to maximize dmg is always get tp and use tp as fast as possible, using as many WS that you can use in a rotation.
there is no depth to it.

It's a shame they wasted so much time on autoattack when it didn't really make anything better for a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

It's a shame they wasted so much time on autoattack when it didn't really make anything better for a lot of people.

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But it did makes things better for a lot of other people.

Only way to cater for this is to add the option to toggle auto-attack on/off

Then battle caters for the needs of both sides.

Other than them implimenting this... dunno...

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

But it did makes things better for a lot of other people.

Only way to cater for this is to add the option to toggle auto-attack on/off

Then battle caters for the needs of both sides.

Other than them implimenting this... dunno...

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Some people really like autoattack, like the practically want to marry it, but if as many people don't like it, then was it really worth the investment and manpower? Surely the answer to that is no.

People say "wait for updates to autoattack system and it will be amazing", but if you think about it, we could have had one year of patches to the active-combat system instead, and perhaps we could find ourselves in a better position today had SE taken that route instead.

It's stupid to dwell on the past, but looking forward, let's just hope the development team doesn't continue to make wasteful decisions under Yoshi's leadership.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Some people really like autoattack, like the practically want to marry it, but if as many people don't like, then was it really worth the investment and manpower? Surely the answer to that is no.

People say "wait for updates to autoattack system and it will be amazing", but if you think about it, we could have had one year of patches to the active-combat system instead, and perhaps we could find ourselves in a better position today had SE taken that route instead.

It's stupid to dwell on the past, but looking forward, let's just hope the development team doesn't continue to make wasteful decisions under Yoshi's leadership.

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By far most people I've encountered prefer the current system, I see mainly just the same few people complaining about it. Most of them appear not to even play much anymore so I question their ability to really judge the new system.

I'd rather not spend all day with my head in one hand whilst my other hand mangles my keyboards 1 key.

At least the current method makes all my keys share a similar durability loss. :p

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

I'd rather not spend all day with my head in one hand whilst my other hand mangles my keyboards 1 key.

At least the current method makes all my keys share a similar durability loss. :p

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lol i love this post, during beta i had to go out and buy a new keyboard because my one button collapsed into its self. granted it was an old keyboard that not only saw FF11 but a plethora of other hot key demanding MMO's.

First keyboard I killed was from playing Half-life, killed the 3 key 'cos i was constantly switching between machinegun and shotgun.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

First keyboard I killed was from playing Half-life, killed the 3 key 'cos i was constantly switching between machinegun and shotgun.

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first keyboard killed? you make it sound like you have destroyed multiple key boards O.o iv only got one under my belt lol.

Oh, idea!

Install gamepad > set attack to button X > set button X on rapid fire > sticky-tape down button X > win

The first keyboard died from Half-Life, afterwards I took a sledgehammer to it just to see what would happen.

The second keyboard was wireless and met it's untimely fate due to not always responding to my commands.

The third keyboard drowned in energy drink and vodka.

This keyboard however is a curvy keyboard which suits all my needs apart from lacking a 'next track' and 'previous track' button. It may too one day face an early grave when I can be bothered to buy one with proper media functions.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

By far most people I've encountered prefer the current system, I see mainly just the same few people complaining about it. Most of them appear not to even play much anymore so I question their ability to really judge the new system.

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If the system makes people not want to play, what does that say about it? I mean im not saying the old system was perfect, or that any system with AA will blow. Im saying that this system they created, and it primarily effects 4 classes makes 3 of them play virtually the same. the one that doesnt, is really because its tanking, if it was DDing it would also play the same, and that style is basically amass massive tp and use WS in rotation, use only skills that somehow increase your tp or your dmg.

When i used to solo monsters 10 levels higher, especially high exp giving mobs like raptors, or when i duoed eyes and slimes, i truely felt involved and interested in each battle, thinking how to best deal with this enemy, whats its strengths and weaknesses were, setting up BRs when i was duo or trio, throwing an extra cure, or trying to keep hate on me with mostly skill use. Now, its just burn it down, you can either kill it it or you cant, tactics strategies, secondary. I can tell you the type of diferent straegies and tactics i used to employ to best deal with different monsters strengths and weaknesses, how the strategy for taking down an eft differed from vultures, mongrels, ahriman, or puks. What strategies do you employ now in the new system that you couldnt do before?

Old system aside, its gone, and now we are looking at a new one, that probably needs different mechanics to shine, so they should make more interesting mechanics for each class, not just some new WS that does the same thing, alter the playstyles, because they killed the old playstyles and synergies with the long cooldowns on the basic playstyle skills.

Look to make marauder feel like a slow moving powerful class with big hits to multi monsters, or a great ability to profit from taking on many monsters at once.

Accentuate pugilists reactionary abilities and ability to switch from offense to defense with greater benefits to one or the other but not necessarily both at the same time.

Give lancers more ability to control their own and the monsters positioning to increase its effectiveness in offense or limiting the monsters effectiveness

just my takes on what directions to go, but regardless the classes need more playstyle differences, and mechanics that work well within their own class to give each class an actual central concept to the execution of its roles.

It really feels like they have no idea on what they want to be different about lancer pugilist and marauder, other than how long they take to swing on how much hp/mp they have.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

I'd rather not spend all day with my head in one hand whilst my other hand mangles my keyboards 1 key.

At least the current method makes all my keys share a similar durability loss. :p

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if you were spamming 1 key you were playing the old system wrong and didn't have a clue how to play it.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

if you were spamming 1 key you were playing the old system wrong and didn't have a clue how to play it.

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Actually I joined a month ago so I hadn't seen or experienced the old system. I was taking the jest according to what I'd read in this thread so far.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Actually I joined a month ago so I hadn't seen or experienced the old system. I was taking the jest according to what I'd read in this thread so far.

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i can understand that and i respect the honesty. no, if you took the time and learned the old system is was very much involved and involved much more than just hitting the 1 key over and over. the reason that was a popular way to play was because the mobs then were as easy as now and alot left when it was still 15 man party size so 15 regular attacks would kill a mob.

the 10 rank above you cap is the main reason pressing 111 was a popular play style. if i can solo a r60 mob on my r49 then or now how much of a problem is it for 8 people to beat it? it's not, but the problem is it's not strategic now either. you stand there do a few auto attacks and then do one ws and the mob dies in a group.

i understand the basic play style now is to use all of your old basic attacks fast to build tp, but people need to realize those were situational attacks before and not one you just spammed without thinking about it. people that complained about the old system will tell you differently because they played it wrong and never wanted to learn the system so deemed it as fail. the old system was much more strategic and involved than the system now is.

Tbh I kinda like the system now, I can kill things and type, or at least take my eyes off the screen for a bit in case I need to do something and not worry that those lost moments could decide the way of battle.

At the same time I'm hoping job classes add additional mechanics to the current battle styles of each class to allow more interesting ways to fight.
In warcraft I was used to simply pressing number keys whilst staying behind the enemy, and making sure I didn't stand in anything that looked unhealthy, that bored me to tears during those fleeting moments when I wanted an epic battle, because that game simply couldn't deliver.

On this though I've had a couple of close-calls before when taking on something I probably shouldn't have, and it's been down to my movement and trying to avoid incoming attacks that have resulted in either success or failure on numerous occassions, think the closest so far was a Dodo 12 ranks above me that got me down to about 8 HP because my PUG went on a missing spree with her TP building attacks, I shot out of attack range just long enough to use Second Wind, giving me a few extra hits in to finish it off before it finished me off.

If the jobs mean I spend more time moving around an enemy and picking out just the right point of attack I'll be happy I have something more to do than just pressing number keys.