Entitled DPS, please stop being entitled

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Originally Posted by SecretCrowds

It is in the nature of tanking that tanks get the final say in deciding the pace of the party. There is no entitlement in that but just what that role entails.

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Setting the pace is completely different from deciding party actions. The role entails the speed of the pulls and ability to hold mobs, nothing more.

The word pace means to do something at a steady speed. You can certainly pull at a steady speed, but that has nothing to do with deciding to pull the side room because you're the boss and want mushrooms on your pizza when everyone else hates them. The "pace" can still be the same, side room or not.

TL;DR
Whine moan bitch whine moan bitch

Now, I can only imagine what it would be like in the real world. Hopefully it would've been resolved differently since this is only a game and no one really gives a shit about each other anymore.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

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You are amazing. And I agree with OP.
Seems everyone wants the authority of a tank but none of the responsibility.

Also..some of the responses. OP did not attack anyone. Simply told a story and how she was affected. Just wanted thoughts on how people viewed it. No need to get aggressive.

Healer and DPS are the b***** of the Tank, this is RPG 101

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

The norm, is to clear the dungeon asap, time is money. Dungeons, especially below 49 take longer than they should AND theres a timer, yeah you get plenty of time, but you never know. For DPS, a combination of FATES and Levequests is the fastest method of leveling. The earliest 50 nin's often did so without ever stepping into a dungeon.

if someone would like extra exp, just ask. Theres an extremely high probability the tank will meet your request.

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Personally I prefer doing dungeons instead of FATES and Levequests to level up my jobs (DPS and healer), it may not be the fastest way but it's THE only way to learn how to play your job the right way in a group setting, which you never learn doing FATES and Levequests. So I don't see why as a DPS who wants to learn to play my jobs the right way in dungeons I should get punished with tanks who want to clear the dungeon asap and avoid most mobs and get us least XP possible.

...so, a BRD does not have to sing, unless explicitly asked to, because that's not their job. (As per from another thread.) But a tank is entitled to decide how whole dungeons are run, if no fast consensus (and/or lack of politeness), because that is their job.

Oh, the things one can learn from the forums here...

/facepalm

You could have taken the high road here, but instead this was your reaction:

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Originally Posted by Adire

Being the rebel I am, and the fact that my friend just needed the dungeon done asap (and I'm the tank, so obviously the game is designed for me to lead the pace of the dungeon), and the fact that he demanded I bow to his whims rather than ask me to, I pulled the first room into the crystal buff.

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Congrats on being a jerk. Perhaps the person doesn't play on a PC and has a difficult time typing out flowery requests to the tank? Why not try giving people the benefit of the doubt before turning into the bad rebel that you are?

When I tank, I really don't count my own vote. Because I play all three roles, I know exactly what queues are like for all three. Here is this poor DPS, wanting to do an exp run and having to wait 30+ minutes for a tank (maybe 15+ with a haler with him). Meanwhile this tank gets insta queues and easy living for everything except ST and WoD. So when he finally gets into a dungeon and ready for the EXP, he demands (he should have asked. WE ALL GET THAT PART) an exp run. Why? Cause 1 dungeon for him is an hour+ (queue plus the run) while for the tank, it's only the length of the run. But nope. This tank had to "teach this DPS" a lesson and say no. Even though the tank has easy queues and competence is extremely important to the speed of the run, the tank was just like nope! AND OF ALL places, in DD. The effort to grab extra mobs in DD is literally next to 0. I can only assume the extra confrontation simply budded from the first one, which wouldn't have happened if the tank didn't feel the need to "rebel" and correct some one's attitude. It's like the OP doesn't know anything about conflict resolution other than punching back. Good job bullying your party and being entitled.

And what the hell is this nonsense about SE giving your opinion more weight than any others in the event of a tie. Where was that under the description of a tanking role. Please sure me. If anything, you get less of a vote because dungeons take literally no effort for you to get in to. Yes, I've tanked and I tank often. If people want an exp run and I don't, even if it's a tie, I do the exp run. Why? because I didn't have to sit at my keyboard, twiddling my thumbs for 30+ minutes waiting for me to appear. The few mintues it takes to grab a few more mobs is literally nothing compared to how long they had to wait. And attacking a rude attitude with more rude attitude is just going to lead to them being salty the whole run and bitching at everything you say, even if it's helpful.


TL;DR: you are both in the wrong and are both entitled pricks.

When I queue as tank, I don't have a problem with doing full clears for exp if we have people that are unsynced. I definitely have a problem with people that are confrontational from the get-go, though. Faced with an immediate demand to not skip anything, I probably would have told them that I wasn't pulling anything extra if they were going to be so rude about it. If they pulled mobs on their own, I'd have let them tank what they pulled. If the healer let me die as a result, I would have simply left and stuck them waiting for a tank to queue in progress. Good luck with that in DD. As for me, I've got better things to do with half an hour than have an awful time in a dungeon with a DPS that facepulls and a healer that won't do their job if I don't go along with their extremely rude behavior.

People seem to just conveniently forget that there are human beings behind those characters they meet in the DF. We're not robots. We're not NPC's. We're actual living breathing people that most likely aren't going to respond well to being treated like crap. If you want to go into a dungeon and do a full clear, for the love of all that's holy ask nicely. Most tanks aren't going to have a problem with it unless they're in some sort of a time crunch. This is part of the reason tanks are so scarce. Queueing as tank is fun with a good group, but it can be absolute misery with a bad group. Honestly, this is the reason I almost always queue in a premade with one or two friends when I go as tank. If someone acts like an asshole, we can just laugh and boot them to the back of the solo DPS queue.

I can see why you reacted badly to a demand. If someone can type out "no skipping anything" they could easily type "please don't skip". It doesn't have to be a flowery request, just decent. Remember the tank is a human being too - many times people seem to forget that.

Of course, I'm not saying I condone the reaction, only that I understand it.

Thread seems to be more about entitled tanks than about entitled dps. When I tank dungeons, I typically pull more mobs if dps need xp or something, bc I know as a dps it's taking way longer to get into dungeons than it does for tanks, but hey, I'm the tank so screw those guys and their xp, I'm just here to get in and get out. Ain't got no time to play no game.

I would be more upset about people not AoEing than about them wanting xp. Seriously.

Anyway, in this particular situation, sounds like everyone was a jerk.

im the tank u go where i go really don't care what randoms i get in pugs think.

Totally with the OP on this one.

Whoever pulls determine the pace of the run. And it just makes most sense for tanks to be doing that.

If you are not the tank and you want to suggest a pace for the run, do it politely and I'll almost certainly listen to what you say unless extraneous circumstances require otherwise. Otherwise, I'm going to ignore you, or if I'm feeling particularly irked, I'll just do the opposite of what you say simply to spite you.

For what it's worth, I've had way more healers try to dictate my pacing rather than the DPS, so this isn't strictly a DPS thing.

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If a healer doesn't want to do a speed run. As a tank...you are not doing a speed run, believe me.

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If a healer is both A) being bossy about what kind of run they want and B) deliberately taking action to try to get the kind of run they want (either by running ahead of the tank and pulling mobs, or by just standing there and not healing), that constitutes as harassment/"AFK" to me and if you're causing party wipes that way it will generally not be hard to get the DPS to pass a vote to kick you.

This is all assuming, of course, that the tank isn't being a dipstick himself and is actually properly gauging his party's capabilities before attempting to pace beyond their means.

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Originally Posted by XgungraveX

im the tank u go where i go really don't care what randoms i get in pugs think.

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You sound like a blast at parties

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

You sound like a blast at parties

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whelp blame that being a tank over years in every mmo, dps crucifying me as tank of small mistakes and getting toxic language throwing at me, after i while i stop caring what dps think and i run the dungeon my way if they don't like it have fun waiting another 30min que time, the only time i make a exception is friends ,guild member or healers (im mutual when it comes to heals) other than that dps like op mention can go pound sand.

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Originally Posted by XgungraveX

whelp blame that being a tank over years in every mmo, dps crucifying me as tank of small mistakes and getting toxic language throwing at me, after i while i stop caring what dps think and i run the dungeon my way if they don't like it have fun waiting another 30min que time, the only time i make a exception is friends ,guild member or healers (im mutual when it comes to heals) other than that dps like op mention can go pound sand.

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That's sort of sad though.. I mean of course you shouldn't take any crap from rude players, that'd be dumb, but isn't for the best if you assume at least people are..decent? (Maybe not smart. Or competent. But at least nice.)

I really don't understand why people are so rude to tanks... I mean, is there a problem with asking nicely, guys? Come on.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I'm guessing you didn't read that I said he said "no skipping anything" immediately when the barrier at the beginning went down.

He sure had that typed fast for someone you're assuming to be without a keyboard O.o. He literally had it typed as I was coming out of the skipped cutscene blackscreen. And is it really THAT bad adding "please" to the sentence? I used to suffer typing on PS3, he had plenty of time to type it out with please added, trust me. Especially while the healer was buffing everyone.

It's trendy to blame me for having a bad reaction to immediate demands and hostility though, and to make judgements of my character and assumptions about me, that much is clear.

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I read what you typed. Still doesn't change the fact you refused to take the high road. Rather than just brush off a potentially rude comment, you decide to make him pay by doing it your way. Part of being a leader is being the responsible one.

the tank is the lead about how , what and when you gonna pull stuff.

a good tank will make be sure to pull the right number of monster depending of the type of dps. because do sack pull when you do have a duo of dragoon, ninja or monk is... dumb. they can AoE but this class are far stronger in mono target dps. the tips is to keep a good pace of pulling. like move when the last monster have something like 5% of hp left for go pull the next pack. if you don't have a black mage in the group.... don't pull more of 4 monster is dumb! you will have longer fight and more downtime because you will drain more tp and mana than needed.

personally if i see a dps pull.... i let him die. if he want to pull, he can start to level up a tank.

ps: because one member of the group want a clean sweep it don't mean that the rest of the group want to do it. it's as much selfish to ask for one than not doing it. by the way, i will be blunt, you will earn more exp from FATE than dungeon. the time you wait or spend into dungeon you can often earn 2-4 time the exp that you will earn from a dungeon. the best example is aurum Val where you will barelly get half a level worth of exp for a dungeon that will take about 40 minute, when outside you can earn almost one level from fate for same time....

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Originally Posted by XgungraveX

whelp blame that being a tank over years in every mmo, dps crucifying me as tank of small mistakes and getting toxic language throwing at me, after i while i stop caring.

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I completely sympathize. I main tank on my alt. One time I forgot that I was in sword oath for one mob pull. We didn't wipe, but I apologized after and put on shield oath, expecting to just move on. But the healer said, "Looks like we got a retard tank. I always get the retards." I dunno why people think tanks aren't human beings and that it's okay to treat them badly.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

That's sort of sad though.. I mean of course you shouldn't take any crap from rude players, that'd be dumb, but isn't for the best if you assume at least people are..decent? (Maybe not smart. Or competent. But at least nice.)

I really don't understand why people are so rude to tanks... I mean, is there a problem with asking nicely, guys? Come on.

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ok i came off pretty harsh on the first post 90% im generally a layed back player who just to play, dungeon,raids and other stuff that the game has to offer,i just drives me up wall when a player is being toxic to players making a small mistake in raids or pulling mobs that there not suppose and dying then turning around and blame the tank for not picking it up, that why i dont get mad when im raiding with a new player and they mess up, its a learning process just like every mmo is, and the end of the day we all want xp and loot.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

You could have taken the high road here, but instead this was your reaction:



Congrats on being a jerk. Perhaps the person doesn't play on a PC and has a difficult time typing out flowery requests to the tank? Why not try giving people the benefit of the doubt before turning into the bad rebel that you are?

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Have all my likes!! Exactly this. Because someone said something to you which you deemed offensive you proceeded to be a jerk. I don't even even think what the DPS said was bad. Like others have stated he could have been on PS3/4. Or perhaps he was trying to get it in before the tank ran off like a bull at a gate. Now because one person hurt your feelings you decided to hold the other members hostage with your bad attitude. You didn't even warn the healer you would be doing such a large pull. You probably didn't even stop to think that the healer might not have been confident DPSing and keeping you alive at the same time.
It's easy to see your the entitled one exhibit every response you have been giving to people who don't agree with you.

I always have the attitude as a dps (or in any role), that majority rules....period. A stalemate can happen but thats not too often lol

Take a vote and see what the majority want. Its a fair way to settle things, if ppl want GUARANTEED full clears then make your own party orrrr.. if tanks want to skip 1/2 a dungeon GUARANTEED, then form your own party as well. Anything beyond that ...its a lottery and the majority should be the determining factor if using DF....nothing else.

Just being a tank doesnt not give any bonus rights to determine....anything lol

A tank can not solo dungeons, nor can a healer, nor a dps, its a TEAM effort and therefore a team decision about full or partial clears.

No role has any more "say" in anything...the pace is simply what a tank thinks he/she can handle without dying while COUNTING on the healer to survive and COUNTING on the dps to actually kill in a timely manner...thats a far cry from the delusion of controlling an entire run.

Bad/entitled/ rude, attitudes came from all roles however, mostly tanks that I have seen, but definately healers and dps as well. No role is exempt. When I am dps, I easily leave if anyone gets dicky, dont care about the timer...cant stomach terrible personalities.

As for full or partial clears I always go with what the majority of ppl want..I'm cool with a 40 min run to a 13 min run, as long as ppl are fair.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

You could have taken the high road here, but instead this was your reaction:

Congrats on being a jerk. Perhaps the person doesn't play on a PC and has a difficult time typing out flowery requests to the tank? Why not try giving people the benefit of the doubt before turning into the bad rebel that you are?

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If they can type out "no skipping anything," they can type out something nicer but similarly short and sweet.

"Can we do a full clear?"
"Can we kill all mobs?"
"Kill all for xp?"
"Kill all mobs please?"
"Full clear please?"

Those all convey the same idea, but in a more respectful way. It's a matter of treating the other person like... well, a person. Asking nicely is more likely to get you a positive response than treating someone like they're there to serve you.

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Originally Posted by MistyMew

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seriously, simply no.... in DF the rule is the tank decide.
the tank come for do a dungeon, he don't have the time for simply wait that we do a vote. it's not a democracy.... sorry but no, in DF the rule is the tank decide the pull...

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

That's sort of sad though.. I mean of course you shouldn't take any crap from rude players, that'd be dumb, but isn't for the best if you assume at least people are..decent? (Maybe not smart. Or competent. But at least nice.)

I really don't understand why people are so rude to tanks... I mean, is there a problem with asking nicely, guys? Come on.

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It's sadly the way it is in most games that have the trinity. Tanks and healers share the bulk of the blame, but when a tank dies, of the reasons that are thought of, it's either they didn't do something right, they pulled too much, positioned badly, aren't geared enough, didn't have the right CDs, or the healer couldn't heal them. Of the reasons that immediately come to mind for most people, most of it pins the blame on the tank. On the last reason, there could be many reasons why the healer couldn't keep them up, but that's an extra line of thought and some people don't think much further on why something failed. The last thing that comes to mind generally is blaming DPS, unless it's a very obvious issue that they aren't doing enough or are needlessly pulling shit. This is coming from a former almost-decade-career tank in previous games, so the view is biased.

On the note of politeness though, it's not only for tanks, but people in general. Strangers are but passersby to the crowd and some unruly people just can't be assed to be civil and polite. :/ I try to be polite as possible regardless of my role, even if short.

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Perhaps the person doesn't play on a PC and has a difficult time typing out flowery requests to the tank?

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That's gob shite and you know it.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

That's gob shite and you know it.

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agreed im on ps4 i have a keyboard.

Tank leads the group.
Don't like it? Frag him, let him die, he won't leave? vote kick him, get a new one.
Don't want to? Deal with it then, stick with him.

That comes not from the lack of tanks or their privileged position, it's simply because that's the role a tank plays in dungeons..

That said, I've hardly ever run into a tank who won't do a full run if asked.. nicely.
Only case I've seen tanks ignore such request is when they're doing a legitimate speed run, usually in full i130 gear, no rest between pulls and finishing the dungeon in under 20 minutes kind of deal. If that's the case, do you really need a full run? You're getting a whole dungeon run in under 20 minutes!

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

seriously, simply no.... in DF the rule is the tank decide.
the tank come for do a dungeon, he don't have the time for simply wait that we do a vote. it's not a democracy.... sorry but no, in DF the rule is the tank decide the pull...

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Eh... yes it's part and parcel of the tank role to set the pace, but that pace needs to be OK with the rest of your party. Every role is integral to dungeon completion and all four of you are there for the same reason - to finish the content. Whether that be for exp or zodiac drops is irrelevant. I always gear check, then ask if big pulls are OK for 50+ dungeons. In lower level dungeons, I check to see if anyone is under level 50. If we have lower level players, I'll ask the party if they want a full clear. Some lower level players don't necessarily want a full clear for whatever reason - they could simply be in there for the roulette bonus. I'm usually in a 3 man premade when I queue up as tank, and we're all on voice chat. If the fourth is unsynced it's basically assumed that we'll do a full clear for them unless they ask otherwise.

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Originally Posted by KaijinRhada

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I agree I am similar in experience with tanking. Most people expects the tank to know the pulls, know the dungeon pathing, know the mob kill order, know the bosses and control hate. But if you mess up 7 times out of 10 you'll get yelled at. After a while you simply become cold and take everyone's hand and lead the way. Its not ideal but get yelled at for something yo u didn't do enough times and your tolerance plummets.
After tanking for long periods of time you get used to just making group decisions. You aren't trying to he rude but you've learned if you do not lead and someone else does it may not be a smooth run. I think people just get offended entirely too easy.
But it's been said before tanks should set the pace. Nice ones Will ask. Good ones will determine pull pace on a pull by pull means as well as gauging comp.

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Originally Posted by LTEvil

I agree I am similar in experience with tanking. Most people expects the tank to know the pulls, know the dungeon pathing, know the mob kill order, know the bosses and control hate. But if you mess up 7 times out of 10 you'll get yelled at. After a while you simply become cold and take everyone's hand and lead the way. Its not ideal but get yelled at for something yo u didn't do enough times and your tolerance plummets.
After tanking for long periods of time you get used to just making group decisions. You aren't trying to he rude but you've learned if you do not lead and someone else does it may not be a smooth run. I think people just get offended entirely too easy.
But it's been said before tanks should set the pace. Nice ones Will ask. Good ones will determine pull pace on a pull by pull means as well as gauging comp.

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this times a million that why when people ask me should they play a tank i ask do you have really thick skin.

I don't think anyone is wrong in that situation. just 2 group of people wanting to play the game the way they want, unfortunately got throw into a duty with each other.

btw, being a tank doesn't give you the rights to decide how the party's gonna play through the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

btw, being a tank doesn't give you the rights to decide how the party's gonna play through the dungeon.

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Nope, it all comes down to who's more willing to eat a 30 minute penalty..

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Originally Posted by Adire

What is a tank's job? Their job is to keep aggro, initiate mob pulls, soak up damage from aggro'd mobs.

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By letting DPS die because they pulled extra mobs, you (as a tank) aren't doing your job.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

By letting DPS die because they pulled extra mobs, you (as a tank) aren't doing your job.

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dps shouldn't be pulling mobs and focusing the one that the tanks has....

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Originally Posted by XgungraveX

dps shouldn't be pulling mobs and focusing the one that the tanks has....

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Correct, however, if you don't pull the mobs off them and attempt to not die (by popping CDs (another part of your job)), then you're really not any better than the DPS. Ideally the tank dictates the pull order, but listening to your group will prevent things like what happened to the OP. Yes, the BRD didn't ask nicely, but he's probably asked nicely in the past and gotten shot down one too many times.

It's an unfortunate series of circumstance where the DPS really wanted EXP and had gotten tired of people refusing to help, the OP thinking "*looks down atop moral high-ground* I'LL TEACH THIS LOWLY DPS A LESSON FOR BEING A BIG MEANY!", and the healer/other DPS who sided with their friends. You also don't really need to AOE in any of the dungeons before DD, and you don't even need to AOE in DD when people pull 1 at a time, so in all likelyhood the OP forced him into a situation where he didn't know what to do and that just added more fuel to the fire. I'd say, perhaps, if you're going in DF don't pull the whole room and expect that to go well.

Anyway, aside from the OP, I was making a more general point about how your job as the tank works. As noted by the OP, you are there to hold aggro, not get the group cleaved, and soak damage "from aggro'd mobs". If a DPS decides to go off and aggro mobs, then you are responsible for picking those mobs up off them (this is a common occurrence in WoW, ninja pulling is something you get used to fairly quickly). If you then die despite your best efforts and your healer's best efforts, then you can yell at the DPS, but letting them die out of spite is kinda childish and kinda just makes you look like you're getting a bit too big for your britches.

So.. tanks in this post think a DPS asking for something is entitlement, yet they don't think they are entitled at all if they decide exactly how a dungeon is done, without communicating with others, just because "well lulz I'm the tank so of course I can go as fast or as slow as I want?"

Yeah umm.. please don't ever tank for me. I'd rather be in a queue longer than deal with you.

Yes, the DPS could have nicer about it, but you also didn't have to "rebel".. just vote on the matter and then do what the majority wants and if he THEN can't deal with it then sure, his problem. But I've never really enjoyed the fact tanks pull whatever they want whenever they want without even asking if for example a speedrun is OK or not. The lack of communication in this game bothers me.

I think I have read enough of the thread to come to a conclusion. You don't think DPS should feel entitled (and now before I proceed any further I should note that yes he could have asked in a more polite manner, and I do agree with that one) yet you feel entitled to run as you want because you are the tank and are designed to pull and control hate, you have said this many times up to page 6, so let's not disagree on that one. You should also take into account that it's the healer's job to keep you as the tank alive, so ultimately you could say the healers should ultimately feel the most entitled due to your own rules yes you control the pace of the dungeon running through, but if the pace is too fast for the healer they can just let you die.

If you just wanted to do a dungeon to speed run and skip everything you could (as you yourself said in the OP, both you and your friend wanted to be don asap) you should use the PF where you can make this plain before people join. If I am in DF and someone makes a specific request (especially pulling everything for exp) I would comply as a lot of people use DF for exp.

You also make the comment "He has a healer with him so has instant queues" Yes he did this ONCE, unless you know him and know he always queues with a healer this is not a valid comment because just because they queued with a healer once doesn't mean they will queue everytime, so yes you would just be nerfing his exp gained just to satisfy your own needs, which is being entitled.

DPS have as much right to gain exp as anyone else and to do anything as much as anyone and refusing his request is just plain selfish.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

By letting DPS die because they pulled extra mobs, you (as a tank) aren't doing your job.

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Wrong, by letting them die i choose to be an idiot as they were for actually pulling mobs in the first place - end of story - i have the ranged attacks with added enmity, not the dps, you pull mobs that are out of my way - you die. Easy, isnt it?

To Topic - here's how it would have gone when i would've been the tank with a friend:

"no skipping anyhting" - "lol? Nope" - "Then the healer wont heal you" - "then i wont tank /sit - feel free to kick me in 5" - i get kicked in 5 minutes, my friend follows, they wait half an hour for a tank in the dungeon or decide to que new like me and my friend que new - problem solved, only 5 minutes wasted

And that's the end to that - if he wants exp he can make a PF group with first room farm dzemael and take his healer friend with him. If he joins the DF - not as tank - he will have to deal with pace and amount of mobs pulled by the tank. If the tank is good enough to look at exp/gear of group members and measure the pulls on that, that is a whole other story. But if you don't tank yourself and get shit from people for even the smallest mistakes, you will follow my pace and do your job - as will i as long as you don't piss me of - like with unfriendly demands right after i join.

P.S.: My Mains in order: BLM/PLD/NIN/SCH - so yeah, ill deal with any tanks that are out there and do as they please, because its faster and less nerve wrecking then demanding anything which can end up in the tank leaving and wasting my time waiting for a new tank or leaving and queing new.

Have a good day ('-')/

As a tank, i live by one very simple rule: "You pull it, you own it." Has worked for up until this point. I see no issues here.