Healers forever gimped

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I still don't understand what bearing this train of thought has on the discussion at hand about... either about Shroud and Aetherflow being similar in MP gain or the 20% margin of error.

All you've shown is Shroud of Saint scales in some unknown way with the level of the CNJ, that Lyrica actually proved in a post a few months ago, actually. (Read the whole page). How is this related? I think, at this point, you need to show us that relationship with a solid argument in the above discussion topics or perhaps drop the topic.

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Find me someone who actually looked at more than 10 data points and maybe I'll cede that "someone did this already" , It seems Lyrica is just pissed off that I have the time to do exactly that. Not even this guy did.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Find me someone who actually looked at more than 10 data points and maybe I'll cede that "someone did this already" , It seems Lyrica is just pissed off that I have the time to do exactly that. Not even this guy did.

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Lyrica found it at three different data points; one for 41, 49, and 50. Originally Lyrica tested 41 and 50 but then you can make the argument that Enhance Shroud might be the MP difference so then they tested it at 49 just to be sure. All three values are different, thus completing the hypothesis that yes, Shroud DOES scale with level (though by what amounts, we didn't know until you brought your math aboard).

That being said, I still DO NOT COMPREHEND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH BY MAPPING OUT ALL THE DATA POINTS BETWEEN 38 AND 50. If you could please ELABORATE on your hypothesis, then we can have a more thorough discussion about what you're aiming for. WHY IS SHROUD SCALING BY LEVEL IMPORTANT TO THE DISCUSSION OF EITHER:

[1] AETHERFLOW AND SHROUD HAVING THE SAME MP RESTORATION

OR

[2] 20% MP MARGIN OF ERROR.

Only you seem to know the important of these "data points" and you can't explain why to us. Hate to say it but all you're doing now is trying to save face and it's making you look WORSE.

So please, either stop talking or put something RELEVANT on the table.

FYI, the chart isn't exactly linear. Based on total SoS MP restored:

There's a 20 MP gap between 38 and 39
40 to 41 has a 95 MP gap, thus one could infer one point is 40, the other is 45 (which would create a spike in the table)
42 to 47 modulates between a +35 to +40 MP increase per level (why, we dunno)

That's hardly "linear".

Also, saying something is close to "20%" doesn't mean anything. Were you completely naked when you did all your tests? You should be trying to do every test with the raw PIE value of the level and see if there's any correlation between the MP restored and how the MP per shroud is calculated. You can kinda tell that there is a somewhat linear increase and that spikes at both 48 (due to enhanced Shroud) and either 40 or 41 - but why?

Random note - if you want to test level 40 easily enough, sync into Cutter's Cry and see what data point you get there.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Random note - if you want to test level 40 easily enough, sync into Cutter's Cry and see what data point you get there.

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That wouldn't work since it takes into account the party members and changes the total MP and Natural regeneration. It might be fine to figure out what the Shroud ticks are, but the way I've been doing it so far is by hitting record on OBS, burning all the MP with Holy, level syncing, and then then hit shroud, and wait for the buff to drop off and hit stop on OBS. Then I go back and play the video to check. So basically the data entered wouldn't be consistant, just like it wouldn't be consistent if I put Lyrica's numbers into level 41.

Before I put the chart up, I actually had like 10 pages of numbers and was like ... nobody is going to read this either. The Italizied level 42 I only had a 1 tick sample for because FATE was being farmed, so I left that there so I could find another FATE to check. Since I went down this rabbit hole, I may as well see what's at the bottom.

What are you guys even arguing about at this point?

http://i62.tinypic.com/2142pp1.png
That's the full graph and it's data.
So contrary to popular belief, Shroud of Saints is not 212MP per tick except at level 50. At level 48 when you get Enhanced Shroud of Saints, there is a bump in the base number of MP recovered, but otherwise it appears to scale linearly against whatever base stat it tracks.

Without knowing what stat it's tracking (next piece to test for, if it's worth testing at all) it's safe to say it's tracking something that increases with levels, but is unchanged by gear and bonus points.

+1 for the testing. You may want to publish this on reddit or in a separate thread for better finding on google.

Just have to say that popular belief is, and was, that shroud does 212 per tick at 50 and scales with level, so it's not contrary, it's in-line with popular belief.

So contrary to popular belief, Shroud of Saints is not 212 MP per tick except at level 50. At level 48 when you get Enhanced Shroud of Saints, there is a bump in the base number of MP recovered, but otherwise it appears to scale linearly against whatever base stat it tracks.

Since when 212 MP per Tick for all three levels where we'll gain Enhanced SoS (48, 49, 50) is the "popular belief"? o.o
I think it was widely accepted that SoS scales with levels, but since we were capped at level 50 for the past 1 and a half years, people will just say SoS recovers 212 MP per tick during discussions and exclude the "at level 50"part..

Based on your table tho, it's interesting to note that for pre level 40, MP regained per tick (MPR/T) increase by 4 per level.
For post level 40, MPR/T has increased to 7~8 per level.

Hopefully this means for levels 51~60, the (MPR/T) per level will increase even further :).

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

So contrary to popular belief, Shroud of Saints is not 212 MP per tick except at level 50. At level 48 when you get Enhanced Shroud of Saints, there is a bump in the base number of MP recovered, but otherwise it appears to scale linearly against whatever base stat it tracks.

Since when 212 MP per Tick for all three levels where we'll gain Enhanced SoS (48, 49, 50) is the "popular belief"? o.o
I think it was widely accepted that SoS scales with levels, but since we were capped at level 50 for the past 1 and a half years, people will just say SoS recovers 212 MP per tick during discussions and exclude the "at level 50"part..

Based on your table tho, it's interesting to note that for pre level 40, MP regained per tick (MPR/T) increase by 4 per level.
For post level 40, MPR/T has increased to 7~8 per level.

Hopefully this means for levels 51~60, the (MPR/T) per level will increase even further :).

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I mean, I didn't know that, so it taught somebody something, which is awesome. I thought it was a flat 1060 at 48 and a flat whatever the hell it is when you first get it at 38. The fact that it isn't is interesting, and makes me wonder exactly what it's scaling off of.

Out of curiosity, Kisa, you said the testing was done with a 100 weapon and no other gear? If I may ask, what weapon were you using to test? More specifically, does it have zero piety?

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

+1 for the testing. You may want to publish this on reddit or in a separate thread for better finding on google.

Just have to say that popular belief is, and was, that shroud does 212 per tick at 50 and scales with level, so it's not contrary, it's in-line with popular belief.

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I agree with both statements here.

The actual values being found is definitely interesting to see and should be placed on it's own thread for further analysis and discussion.

That being said...

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Originally Posted by Viviza

What are you guys even arguing about at this point?

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To me it was the discussion was about the bolded parts of this quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I'm going to reply to the thread but honestly I don't care about the nitpicky details.

Aetherflow and Shroud of Saints recover roughly the same amount of MP, the difference is that punching Shroud of Saints requires you to wait to recover enough MP to use it, which means you can't use it once you're out, and thus it's best used before you hit 20%. Aetherflow on the other hand is essentially free, instant 20% MP recovery. You get to pull some additional MP/HP from enemies (If you use all 3 Aetherflows, you recover a little over the same 20% the initial Aetherflow did.) Obviously PIE would factor in more with SCH (since it's 20%) but not WHM's Shroud of Saints (which just increases the MP regeneration tick speed.)

Regardless of which you play, you're going to run out of mana if either you overheal, or the party (or just the tank) is playing horribly. Speedrunners, Tanks/DPS who stand in every AOE , and fail to interrupt/stun the raid-wide attacks are going to be what causes you to run out of mana.

There are also pots, remember those? Hi-Elixir has a 7-minute 30 second cooldown, and recovers a maximum of 460 points/20% of MP (and 24%/560 points of HP.) X-Ether is 460 points/20% of MP. Exactly the same 20%.

The fact is, the game's battles are designed around playing cooperatively and playing the role you queued as. You aren't supposed to need to revive/resurrect players if everyone is paying attention. Revives are the most expensive use of MP, Revive = 6 Cure I's. They wouldn't make the game impossible, and clearly the margin of error is 20% (eg you could waste 20% of your Mana and still win, that's why Shroud/Aetherflow/Elixir/Ether are at that and have long enough cooldowns to avoid spamming them.) But hey, some people still seem to think that healers are supposed to take up the slack of every player who is playing poorly on purpose.

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Then it somehow got on a tangent about Shroud of Saints scaling with level. What it has to do with Kisa's original arguement? Well, that's only something Kisa can answer because I think we're all at a loss.

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Originally Posted by Menae

Out of curiosity, Kisa, you said the testing was done with a 100 weapon and no other gear? If I may ask, what weapon were you using to test? More specifically, does it have zero piety?

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^ Also curious about this as I got a feeling Shroud is based around the raw PIE value of your level, which may partially explains why it scales with level in a weird way.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

^ Also curious about this as I got a feeling Shroud is based around the raw PIE value of your level, which may partially explains why it scales with level in a weird way.

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I need to find a healer weapon with no stat bonuses to test that. My level 100 Relic gear doesn't have PIE on it, but the level 100 blue weapon does.

But when I did all the tests above I was using my regular gear to avoid getting 1-hit-ko'd when getting the natural recovery numbers. However I can't remove the soul stone with the relic gear, so I was like ... "so either the WHM skews pie, or the weapon skews pie". Since it's been essentially proven that natural healing is always 2% of maximum MP, and Shroud of Saints isn't affected by any equipped gear (eg I got 212 and 206 mp recovered with the Weathered Yagrush not in combat, without the whm soul stone) I can go back and get the pie values with no PIE gear equipped just by clicking level sync and taking a screenshot of the stat sheet.

Shroud of Saints uses the same level scaling function as spell MP costs which appears to be a function that is not character attribute or even class dependent.

The 60 and 80 Potency tooltips for SoS are likely just representative of a percentage of the spell cost function where MP cost values of spells like Cure II and Protect can be seen as equal to 100. So 60 Potency = 60%, 80 Potency = 80% of these MP values at each level. Certain MP costs for spells such as Stone II (60) and Repose (80) can also be used to quickly view what SoS refresh values per tick are in game at different levels.
*Current MP values and MP costs should always be whole numbers rounded down which leads to non exact ratios for spell costs at certain levels.

Other abilities and their hidden refresh potency values:
Riot Blade (Instant)- 50 Potency (Fast Blade Combo)
Energy Drain (Instant)- 50 Potency, 100 Potency (Talent)
Mage's Ballad (Per tick)- 30 Potency, 60 Potency (Soul Voice)

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Originally Posted by Viviza

What are you guys even arguing about at this point?

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What she said.

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Originally Posted by Ethos

Shroud of Saints uses the same level scaling function as spell MP costs which appears to be a function that is not character attribute or even class dependent.

The 60 and 80 Potency tooltips for SoS are likely just representative of a percentage of the spell cost function where MP cost values of spells like Cure II and Protect can be seen as equal to 100. So 60 Potency = 60%, 80 Potency = 80% of these MP values at each level. Certain MP costs for spells such as Stone II (60) and Repose (80) can also be used to quickly view what SoS refresh values per tick are in game at different levels.
*Current MP values and MP costs should always be whole numbers rounded down which leads to non exact ratios for spell costs at certain levels.

Other abilities and their hidden refresh potency values:
Riot Blade (Instant)- 50 Potency (Fast Blade Combo)
Energy Drain (Instant)- 50 Potency, 100 Potency (Talent)
Mage's Ballad (Per tick)- 30 Potency, 60 Potency (Soul Voice)

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I was able to replicate this, almost. What's interesting is that the numbers they got for SCH I managed to get for CNJ.

So before I overcompicate things, here's the Level, PIE and MP data:

http://i60.tinypic.com/5wza7n.png
Level 8-49 are from LevelSync on CNJ with no bonus-providing gear equipped (the level 1 staff and a level one body armor) There is no possible way to levelsync below 8, the 5 comes from an alternate character on an alternate server that I just kinda created over a year ago and then did nothing with, but since she's a Moonseeker, the PIE race stat is different, so I subtracted 2 points. The Character I used for this is a Sunseeker.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

^ Also curious about this as I got a feeling Shroud is based around the raw PIE value of your level, which may partially explains why it scales with level in a weird way.

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It ~is~, but the round-about way I got a formula for this is based off the MP, which doesn't eliminate the Race value which is what I figure is a rounding error at those levels. Basically the Formula is (POTENCY AS %)*(0.0825)*(UNGEARED MP)
In doing this, I discovered something else. You can have the same values for PIE, either through the bonus points or through gear and get different MP.

Here's data #2...
http://i61.tinypic.com/2dwapz.png

Now before someone says something, this is why it's interesting:
http://i59.tinypic.com/10xvvoj.png

This is where that clue above from the previous forum post. The 1530 had to be dividable by the same 7.57, which happens to be the PIE with no race, gear, or bonus points.

So I came up with a formula that works for level 50, but clearly the multiplier changes by level, and isn't linear.
Where MULTIPLIER = 7.57 and Level = 50
(UNGEARED PIE*MULTIPLIER) + (UNGEARED PIE+BONUS PIE*Multiplier)
eg (202*7.57) + (222 * 7.57) = 3209.68 MP.
So if you sunk your bonus points into PIE you get
(202*7.57) + (252 * 7.57) =3436.78 MP.

The WHM soul stone changes the multiplier in a way I have not yet tested, and I haven't tested if the gear is changing the multiplier or just the soul stone.

I only did one test with this, which is when I observed it, but I had 242 PIE from Bonus points and had MP of 3361, but the gear item(s) that brought it to 242 PIE 3508, which I suspect is the WHM crystal changing the multiplier. As I wasn't testing specificly for this at the time, I was just poking random PIE-changing gear into the above formula to see if it was consistent. (Which it's not)

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Originally Posted by CallMeZeo

What she said.

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SoS Scaling, PIE/MP scaling.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

SoS Scaling, PIE/MP scaling.

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What is there about it to debate or discuss? The math and tables are nice, but what are you trying to show?

@Kisa

At this point in time, you should probably just collate all your data and just begin a new thread entirely for discussion with respect to Shroud. As it stands, the earlier discussion would only detract from your current train of thought and for the most part, is interesting to gloss over on it's own separate discussion.

As it stands right now, your current data runs the risk of being marred by the earlier discussion in the thread, hence my suggestion.

This whole thread confuses me. @_@ Doesn't SoS just heal a flat amount depending on your level? Isn't it not a percentage of any number? I am so lost lol

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

This whole thread confuses me. @_@ Doesn't SoS just heal a flat amount depending on your level?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Isn't it not a percentage of any number?

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No. I mean, every number is a percentage of every number. Snarky answers aside, though, it's based on something; apparently it's a percentage of a base mp cost every class shares that goes up with levels. That said, that base mp cost might itself be based off of something else, whether it's something elegant like a percentage of some class's base mp or just some arbitrary numbers Square picked I cannot say.

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Originally Posted by Velox

MMOs are designed around tradeoffs.

WHM has high potency heals. The tradeoff is limited support capacity. SCH has high support capacity, tradeoff is limited heal strength.

WHM has HoTs to cover for low mobility, while SCH has a fairy.

WHM has a weaker AoE HoT with no cool down, while SCH has a stronger one with a cool down.

SCH has a 50/50 split in enmity with fairy and WHM can cut enmity in half every 2 minutes.

These are all balanced and fair tradeoffs between the jobs. The only discrepancy is MP recovery. There is no justification nor fair trade to why SCH has a scaling MP tool with a 1min CD + 3 optional burst recovery options (if needed) while WHM has a fixed MP tool with a 2min cool down that only rewards a small amount of MP every 3 seconds.

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You are also forgetting that WHM has Procs to mitigate their Mana Usage.

A lot of WHM fail to make use of their Cure II Procs as well as their Cure III Procs. You actually have a Hidden Free Esuna Proc as well as a White Mage. PRoperly timed Shroud of Saints along with that and a WHM typically has no issues with their Mana Pool or threat at all. Scholars have it all fine and Dandy yes, but are heavily Reliant on that little Fairy as a good Chunk of their healing as well as their only source of a HoT. They also rely on that fairy as a Threat dump and an EOS in Sic is a waste of party wide defensive cool downs, and that HoT. Never mind if the Fairy dies, the scholar either can try and carry on without it, or summon it at the cost of a Swiftcast, or stand there summoning it without putting out further heals.

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Originally Posted by Menae

No. I mean, every number is a percentage of every number. Snarky answers aside, though, it's based on something; apparently it's a percentage of a base mp cost every class shares that goes up with levels. That said, that base mp cost might itself be based off of something else, whether it's something elegant like a percentage of some class's base mp or just some arbitrary numbers Square picked I cannot say.

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Ah. Now I understand. Sorry, I just have issues with graphs and stuff at times. I see what you mean.

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Originally Posted by Menae

No. I mean, every number is a percentage of every number. Snarky answers aside, though, it's based on something; apparently it's a percentage of a base mp cost every class shares that goes up with levels. That said, that base mp cost might itself be based off of something else, whether it's something elegant like a percentage of some class's base mp or just some arbitrary numbers Square picked I cannot say.

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You probably extend on this in the sense that (Level * PIE modifier) = base PIE level = base MP of the player. Shroud is probably based on any one of those factors as that changes the "base" MP. Notice how shroud gets a small boost in potency from level 40 to 41 - it goes from getting a 4mp/tick / level to FLOOR(7.5)mp/tick / level when it makes the transition. Likewise, total max MP gained per level jumped from 40 to 41 by about double as well.

Note this also implies that racial bonuses are independent from this base MP value else every player would have a slightly different Shroud tick. Just a minor detail in the grand scheme of things, might be used to prove something else way down the line for a completely different role, lol.