Why I have no interest in Coils more specifically, T9.

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Originally Posted by Stupiduglytaru

I get what you mean for when first golem set die, a lot of guides with sprint methods etc lol but I'll use that thank you :) I will be setting a pf at 8pm UK if your free

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Not sure if I will be able to dedicate time to it tonight or if I will be doing some t12 farm with the static, but if you're on before you start the PF group you're welcome to ask any questions.

Could definitely come join at some point at the weekend though.

My whole issue with Coil in general is the instakills. Instakills are not fun and provide nothing but unnecessary headaches. I haven't even step foot in T9 but that's not happening til T7 and T8 are cleared. Some mechanics are just plain dumb like Blighted Bouquet. I have to unnecessary run from boss and disengage just to avoid the damage. That's dumb right there. The window cast is just for pure show as you literally only have 3 seconds to react. XI had this same issue where animations take place before a casting time was done. Coil to me is the only content I find a complete chore to complete. Once I get my title, I'm never ever stepping back into it that stupid place.

I like how people want these so called random elements in a fight. The truth of the matter is that most of this community couldn't handle them.

Let's look at Mog EX for example. A little bit of a RNG element and people hate the fight. When the fight was new in 2.2, most groups couldn't beat it and of the groups that did beat most barely just scrape through by sear luck.
The same thing happened in 2.3 with Ramuh EX, a little bit of RNG and a lot of people couldn't handle it.
It wasn't until the echo was added to these fight and a set strategy was known that people cleared these fights.

If we had true RNG based fights, where any mechanic can happen at a given time, a far fewer amount of people would be able to clear content. Then we'll be at this again, but people will be complaining about how unfair that is.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

My whole issue with Coil in general is the instakills. Instakills are not fun and provide nothing but unnecessary headaches. I haven't even step foot in T9 but that's not happening til T7 and T8 are cleared. Some mechanics are just plain dumb like Blighted Bouquet. I have to unnecessary run from boss and disengage just to avoid the damage. That's dumb right there. The window cast is just for pure show as you literally only have 3 seconds to react. XI had this same issue where animations take place before a casting time was done. Coil to me is the only content I find a complete chore to complete. Once I get my title, I'm never ever stepping back into it that stupid place.

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Well bouquet is not an instakill anymore, or is it?
Not attacking on you or anything, I haven't done T6 since the nerf, just asking.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

I like how people want these so called random elements in a fight. The truth of the matter is that most of this community couldn't handle them.

Let's look at Mog EX for example. A little bit of a RNG element and people hate the fight. When the fight was new in 2.2, most groups couldn't beat it and of the groups that did beat most barely just scrape through by sear luck.
The same thing happened in 2.3 with Ramuh EX, a little bit of RNG and a lot of people couldn't handle it.
It wasn't until the echo was added to these fight and a set strategy was known that people cleared these fights.

If we had true RNG based fights, where any mechanic can happen at a given time, a far fewer amount of people would be able to clear content. Then we'll be at this again, but people will be complaining about how unfair that is.

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Sir, I absolutely agree on the Ramuh Ex thing. I know no one, I mean literally no one who would be willing to do Ramuh EM without being forced to do it.
I mean yeah, we have to do it to farm ponies, but it is the most annoying fight ever.. probably because of the random element. :D

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Well bouquet is not an instakill anymore, or is it?
Not attacking on you or anything, I haven't done T6 since the nerf, just asking.

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I don't think it is anymore, but i haven't been in the SCoB since the beginning of 2.4.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Well bouquet is not an instakill anymore, or is it?
Not attacking on you or anything, I haven't done T6 since the nerf, just asking.



Sir, I absolutely agree on the Ramuh Ex thing. I know no one, I mean literally no one who would be willing to do Ramuh EM without being forced to do it.
I mean yeah, we have to do it to farm ponies, but it is the most annoying fight ever.. probably because of the random element. :D

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You can pretty much ignore it and just DPS through in t6 now, hell you can just ignore almost everything and smash its face in for the most part, its a face roll since the nerfs and with echo + gear.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

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It is assumed that a fight using RNG mechanics would take into account the players noticing and reacting to the move in question, or said move not killing them outright. The stone vigil HM boss is a minor example. Ifrit 1.0 being another. Thing is fun and frustrating depend on attitudes of you and those you play with, and it is easy to get frustrated when you don't look for the root cause, for fear of vote abandon or kick ending your attempt for the day.(party member domino effect)

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

My whole issue with Coil in general is the instakills. Instakills are not fun and provide nothing but unnecessary headaches. I haven't even step foot in T9 but that's not happening til T7 and T8 are cleared. Some mechanics are just plain dumb like Blighted Bouquet. I have to unnecessary run from boss and disengage just to avoid the damage. That's dumb right there. The window cast is just for pure show as you literally only have 3 seconds to react. XI had this same issue where animations take place before a casting time was done. Coil to me is the only content I find a complete chore to complete. Once I get my title, I'm never ever stepping back into it that stupid place.

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Just sheath your weapon as cast starts, I actually liked the mechanic when it was first introduced and when it would 1 shot you, it was something new.

As for instakill mechanics, personally I like them. I think you should be heavily punished for screwing up mechanics. Now as for how that translates into DF, I agree its far too harsh for DF groups which is why Coil can be a nightmare for people who want to clear but cant in DF. Thats more down to the way the progression was implemented than the actual mechanics.

With Alexander they said the normal mode will be easier than coil, and the hard mode will be harder. Personally I think this is better, people who just want to DF it should be able to clear it as i imagine there will be less instakill mechanics and it'll be more friendly to random groups of people with random group comps, and as for those who want to do the hard content, they will have their work cut out for them and it'll be less forgiving.

Win win.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

W
Sir, I absolutely agree on the Ramuh Ex thing. I know no one, I mean literally no one who would be willing to do Ramuh EM without being forced to do it.
I mean yeah, we have to do it to farm ponies, but it is the most annoying fight ever.. probably because of the random element. :D

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/agree

This is always my argument against 'random' mechanics. The random ones are more forgiving if you screw up, otherwise it is unfair, which in turn makes the fight a complete joke if you are with an organized group.

Ramuh Ex in DF/PF can be a complete and utter clusterfuck with a group of randoms, Shiva Ex is about 1million times easier in a DF/PF.
However Ramuh Ex in an organized group is a complete snooze fest and far too easy.

FCOB has the right amount of random for me. Scripted fights/orders or mechanics with a random element to them which forces you to pay attention and react accordingly.

T10 - Set mechanics in the last phase, but random order.
T11 - Random tethers and the river/sea
T12 - No random really, other than who gets the initial brand and the blue/redfires.
T13 - Megaflares yo.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

...win win.

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I hope that is the case, coil was proving...divisive in my experience, even in its first iteration.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I absolutely agree with the OP. It's all about learning, learning, learning - and then hoping that your comrades learn as well and don't keep messing up, over, and over, and over. Skill is barely required. Memorization and competent teammates are what matters.



Show me where the game mentions or even hints at the fact that the T9 meteors can't be close together or they'll explode and wipe the party.

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I'm curious as to your definition of skill. It seems maybe you are confusing it with talent.

Do you honestly believe a major league slugger was just born like that? Or does the hours upon days of learning from failure (striking out) impact his play?

Success is when the product of your skill and talent exceed a threshold defined by the task. You need both. Skill as a word is closer to experience.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I absolutely agree with the OP. It's all about learning, learning, learning - and then hoping that your comrades learn as well and don't keep messing up, over, and over, and over. Skill is barely required. Memorization and competent teammates are what matters.



Show me where the game mentions or even hints at the fact that the T9 meteors can't be close together or they'll explode and wipe the party.

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Sorry to target you and I mean no offense by it, but even in single players games, they do not give you all the details on a boss. Maybe a hint or two, but nothing that is gonna save you.
Do you expect Nael to say, " HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Once those meteors get too close, ITS ALL OVER!" No its a fight, why would she give a warning of a deadly side effect from one of her moves.

IMO it does not take skill to see a marker over your head and run to point B o.O it takes at best using these amazing things called eyes :O and maybe this thing called a brain ;>_>

Obviously, playing a song with a guitar perfectly isn't skillful because it's all memorization and practice. You can only be considered skilled with a guitar if you're playing with a guitar that has strings that magically switches around with each other at random intervals and you somehow still manage to play the song!

Does anyone else notice how its usually people who haven't cleared the content saying that end game content isn't challenging?

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Obviously, playing a song with a guitar perfectly isn't skillful because it's all memorization and practice. You can only be considered skilled with a guitar if you're playing with a guitar that has strings that magically switches around with each other at random intervals and you somehow still manage to play the song!

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That was pretty funny but no they also have to be made out of razor wire or something sharp ;)

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Originally Posted by Niasha

Does anyone else notice how its usually people who haven't cleared the content saying that end game content isn't challenging?

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Yea, and also I haven't seen many people who cleared T9, T13, Savage braging about how easy and unchallenging it was. Weird.

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Originally Posted by Niasha

Does anyone else notice how its usually people who haven't cleared the content saying that end game content isn't challenging?

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That's usually how it goes. Check out the people who complain about WoW being "too easy." No mythic kills (think Savage), usually not even heroic kills (normal). They do LFR (Crystal Tower) and then complain about how the game is too easy.

Meh imo i kinda agree with op about it being more of a test etc BUT in a sense its rather more of a DDR game.
Ppl can still good by "reacting" to the "incoming" arrows and try their best to follow up without making " too many mistakes" that will eventually make them lose.
But ppl like me who don't have much practice pretty much will trip up on the 1st "set of patterns".
Whether its due to our slow reaction speed, nervousness or just plain no understand. Its just not for us.
I'm fine with that and will try again every now and then but hey its " not for everyone " just like how A LOT of ppl don't do sightseeing logs/ gave up or have 60+ TT cards.

This isn't the game you're looking for.

https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordp.../09/obiwan.png

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Shiva Ex is a good idea of a step in this direction. Is she gunna sword? Or is she gunna staff? Players need to wait, be ready, and react accordingly. In sword form, she continues to randomly choose abilities and the tank must react accordingly. This is a very simple kind of randomness, to be sure, but it is still random.

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Shiva goes through a set rotation for Sword. Icebrand > Glacier Bash > Whiteout.

The only random element is which weapon she chooses.

@OP - it looks like you're wanting raid bosses more like what you'd find in an action MMO. Having come to FFXIV from a game like that, I honestly don't think it would work very well for this game's combat style.

But seriously, if you don't want to do Coil, then don't do Coil. Nobody's twisting your arm.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

T9 is a terrible fight and I hope future fights don't follow the same pattern.

The whole thing literally puts me to sleep.

It gets better though, trust me. T10 through T13 are all very fun.

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If it's "Literally" putting you asleep then you aren't even playing. It's figuratively putting you asleep.

When people want to be taken seriously it tends to be a good idea to avoid obvious hyperbole.

Seriously though. This is how these type of MMOs function. Why is anyone here even surprised. It's like you bought an orange and are all pissed off it's not an apple. You got exactly what you paid for.

I think the issue is they want a GM on the other side puppeteering the boss.

If you want that level of competitive challenge you may want to try a moba vs humans. Encounters with AI are by their nature scripted. Even decision based AI can be manipulated when you recognize the parameters.

People like to use the lack of "interest" or bad game design as an excuse to say that's why they haven't downed or tried X content. If you can't dodge something knowing it's coming, how do you expect to dodge it not knowing it's coming? All contents require some sort of memorization. Mechanics will cause wipes because you don't know how they work until you read the tooltip, especially when it requires some sort of coordination, but that doesn't automatically make it a "memorization" game.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Obviously, playing a song with a guitar perfectly isn't skillful because it's all memorization and practice. You can only be considered skilled with a guitar if you're playing with a guitar that has strings that magically switches around with each other at random intervals and you somehow still manage to play the song!

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Originally Posted by kirk

That was pretty funny but no they also have to be made out of razor wire or something sharp ;)

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and you have to do it on the first try too.

This IS why SE don't allow DF, on end game content upon release because everyone one will be crying on forum about how they wipe in the first min. On DF groups.

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

People like to use the lack of "interest" or bad game design as an excuse to say that's why they haven't downed or tried X content. If you can't dodge something knowing it's coming, how do you expect to dodge it not knowing it's coming? All contents require some sort of memorization. Mechanics will cause wipes because you don't know how they work until you read the tooltip, especially when it requires some sort of coordination, but that doesn't automatically make it a "memorization" game.



and you have to do it on the first try too.

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Oh my first try hmm seems i'll need some cutting edge skills ;) but on top of the you must be set on fire

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

I remember back, long ago in WoW. There were no indicators at all. And now?

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I don't believe any of them were instant wipe mechanics.

As I see it, the hardest raid (Coil) means, when it is still new content: you need to form a group that will be practicing and learning together. With all the problems this means: you may be some time looking for a raid member you need, people may not show up at established times, you have to find new members, etc. You learn the mechanichs as a group bit by bit. It is a team thing, you get to know each other, help each other, etc.

It has a lot of group management and team making and preserving, practising together, until you succeed. Once you succeed, as you have repeated the fight so many times, it gets easier and easier until it is in farm mode.

It is similar, but not exactly the same, if it is not new content, people are overgeared and there is echo. Everything will go quicker and you can find some random members of the party, or even all. But it will still mean group learning, people who have practice up to phase X going together, etc.

My point is that in this raids, focus is on individual but also group performance. The fact that one person's mistake may make the group fail is partly what makes the group effort necessary, and team management skills too (even removing some member, or being able to convince him to stay and not quit too soon.)

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Originally Posted by kirk

Oh my first try hmm seems i'll need some cutting edge skills ;) but on top of the you must be set on fire

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And you'll need to assemble and tune the guitar first so that you can play it. And just when you think you've got it the guitar will change without warning into a banjo.

RIP your playing talent.

Making an encounter random does not make it harder.
In fact its the opposite, sometimes it becomes harder, sometimes it becomes significantly easier.
This just leads to benefiting people who have a lot more spare time (to pull until they get a lucky easy pull where things lined up). It also makes it far harder to tune as tight as they do. The only way to make it seem harder when an encounter is random is to increase the raid size. However the difficulty from that is artificial. As in the chances of someone making a mistake goes up exponentially with party size.

The raids are fine and well tuned on release. If you can't beat them in a reasonable time after they are released you are bad, or you don't have a good group, or you have little time to play the game.

You also truly don't have to memorize entire fights to beat them. You just have to learn counters to specific mechanics, which if the order was random my group would still beat, easily, and you still wouldn't although your excuse and complaint would have to change.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Because despite whinging about the game's scripted battle and begging for dynamic mechanics, people can't handle either. Either they're delusional or hypocritical. Easy example is stone vigil hard's last boss. It's basically a super lenient dual Rajang fight. All you need to do is constantly position yourself out of the first boss's way while constantly keeping an eye of the 2nd boss. I've done ALOT of solo queues on this dungeon when it's still on extreme roulette and the majority of the players cant handle this fight without getting slapped around. Of course, since they're not actually lethal, you can have the healer to fix all of these players' mistakes.

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That's actually a good point, but noobs will be noobs..
I've seen my fair share of ineptitude in pve contents, and I think that comes from the fact that majority of the player base in FF14 is not your typical mmo crowd, and the console players also contribute to the pool as well. I'm not saying that console players are noobs, but if you see somebody who can't turn their characters around and move at the same time (Unfortunately, I've had to see tanks like this close to lv 50) you know they're not playing on a keyboard and mouse..

But, I think the game still needs 2 different approaches to going about providing difficulty in pve. Raids and dungeons should be different in nature, but in this game, they are not. Because the core mechanics all rely on the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Ayrie

I'm curious as to your definition of skill. It seems maybe you are confusing it with talent.

Do you honestly believe a major league slugger was just born like that? Or does the hours upon days of learning from failure (striking out) impact his play?

Success is when the product of your skill and talent exceed a threshold defined by the task. You need both. Skill as a word is closer to experience.

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It's the difference between being a strategist vs. a fighter. I feel like in this game, we just become better at strategizing, not the actual fighting part. Not even a legitimate strategy at that, I feel like we're constantly finding loopholes to make the boss mechanics null, almost like finding exploits. It just isn't much fun when every fight pans out the same way.

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

Before anyone says "You cant take a challenge" Allow me to say I do enjoy a challenge.

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If you go in the o`re `der T9 and dun get yourself vote kicked out as dps by them local fellas`, den ya`llrdy past the challenge and from then on errbody will respect ya cos they know if you in they town , then you means trouble. And nobody aint want no trouble

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

For one, WoD came out AFTER T9 did, WoD came out after T13 did. So that complaint isnt really valid. Also, you originally had to have a premade party to even enter coil, as you do with the current raid. They weren't even IN DF to begin with.

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But they are on Duty Finder now, just like World of Darkness and Keeper of the Lake. So why shouldn't we expect the difficulty to remain consistent with other content on Duty Finder? Do you see the word (Hardcore) next to the area names in the opening cinematic for Coil Turns? The text in-game makes no effort to distinguish the mechanical difficulty between "Crystal Tower" raid or "Binding Coil" raids.

The fact toxic elitists like to treat those who haven't cleared T5/T9 with contempt or condescendingly claim Coil is "easy" only makes this much worse.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

But they are on Duty Finder now, just like World of Darkness and Keeper of the Lake. So why shouldn't we expect the difficulty to remain consistent with other content on Duty Finder? Do you see the word (Hardcore) next to the area names in the opening cinematic for Coil Turns? The text in-game makes no effort to distinguish the mechanical difficulty between "Crystal Tower" raid or "Binding Coil" raids.

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Why SHOULD we expect the difficulty to be in line with stuff DESIGNED to be easier than it just because it's accessible from the same spot? The text makes no effort to distinguish the difficulty because it doesn't need to. The first set of turns is easy enough, but raises enough warning flags to tell people to stay away from them if they don't want to dive head-first into raiding. Besides, there's always other, you know, people to talk to about it.

While I disagree with the OP about skill not being repetition (as a memorization is a skill) I do agree that the Coils and the players who do them regularly are a big problem with the game. This is a bit off topic but here are two reasons why Coil levels are terrible:


1) It breeds elitist players (I can take a picture on my computer of the PF at any given time 9 times out of the 10 the PF is filled with players wanting to do FCoB but with really derogatory messages about new players wanting to do that content, this imo is unacceptable. Not that they are not willing to take on new players, but the language in which they are using to say it (granted its not filled with curse words and the like but if a new player were to read them they ask themselves why am I playing this if all the veteran players appear to be this way') Now I'm not saying that all veteran players are like this, HOWEVER its a matter of perception, the New Player(s) will perceive the end game community to be vastly unfriendly, a problem that will hurt the MMO in the long haul, all created by the veteran player base.

2) Certain Coils basically require some form of audible chat software (TeamSpeak, Ventrillo, Mumble, etc). Because how quickly some of these phases/move cycles go its really hard to speak via typing to player who are new, which in turn discourages veteran players from wanting to play with new players because it would be too much of a task to ensure then knew what was going on/going to happen. Voice Chat software fixes this problem, however we are playing a game that is split onto three different platforms, Playstation 3, Playstation 4 and PC. Now I know that you can get these chat software options in the form of phone apps, but that is not the point of this matter. The point is that players are basically being forced to use outside software to complete content. IMO, that is a sign of poor game design, both from lack of offering the voice chat option within the game and from designing content where voice chat is almost mandatory when its not an option built into the client software.

Those are my gripes, skill is definitely involved with Coil runs, as memorization is a skill. One that many people are not very good at.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

But they are on Duty Finder now, just like World of Darkness and Keeper of the Lake. So why shouldn't we expect the difficulty to remain consistent with other content on Duty Finder? Do you see the word (Hardcore) next to the area names in the opening cinematic for Coil Turns? The text in-game makes no effort to distinguish the mechanical difficulty between "Crystal Tower" raid or "Binding Coil" raids.

The fact toxic elitists like to treat those who haven't cleared T5/T9 with contempt or condescendingly claim Coil is "easy" only makes this much worse.

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You know something is wrong with both the community and the duty finder when people assume if its on the DF it should be easy and free loot.
As for "Toxic elitist" in this game, some elitist are mostly mean because they are sick of bad players trying to get the only 4 hard boss in the game nerfed because literally the rest of the game is not enough for you.
Believe it or not, but not everyone is part of the facebook generation. There are still humans out there who enjoy overcoming challenges instead of waiting to be spoonfed.

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Originally Posted by hallena

You know something is wrong with both the community and the duty finder when people assume if its on the DF it should be easy and free loot.
As for "Toxic elitist" in this game, some elitist are mostly mean because they are sick of bad players trying to get the only 4 hard boss in the game nerfed because literally the rest of the game is not enough for you.

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That's how they set up the game. Everything besides Coil is very casual and welcoming. How can you condemn us for expecting the game to be consistent? Thank you at least for demonstrating how Coil is creating a toxic atmosphere in this game.

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Originally Posted by hallena

As for "Toxic elitist" in this game, some elitist are mostly mean because they are sick of bad players trying to get the only 4 hard boss in the game nerfed because literally the rest of the game is not enough

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So, let me get this straight, you are stating that there are players who are jerks to others in-game because they are upset that some random person on the Internet went to SE's forum and asked for something to be made easier?

Really?

I mean, really?

Holy crap, talk about a razor thin justification for poor behavior.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

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1) As someone steeped in raid content, I'm gonna say that those are probably the people you wouldn't want to play with anyway. For every person that does that there's probably more in FCs willing to help new people through most content (though they're not quite as likely to extend their help through PF).
2) While VOIP is highly helpful, it's really not needed for Coil at all, provided everyone in the group is highly attentive (which is usually not the case, hence many people making it a requirement for their groups). For most stuff, macros can be used to get something across to other players much faster than just typing it out. (Besides, we're talking high-tier endgame raiding here, it's supposed to require coordination. You'll be hard-pressed to find a cutting edge raid group on any MMO that doesn't make use of voice chat.)

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

That's how they set up the game. Everything besides Coil is very casual and welcoming. How can you condemn us for expecting the game to be consistent?

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So what you're saying is that there should be NO hardcore content whatsoever, or if they do they have to put up warning signs saying "HEY LOOK AT THIS HARD CONTENT DON'T COME CLOSE" at every mention of that content? I would hope that people can think enough so SE wouldn't have to resort to that to get some message across. Item level requirements for Second Coil Turns 3 and 4 are higher than any other instance in the game, that should say enough.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

That's how they set up the game. Everything besides Coil is very casual and welcoming.

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And you're right. So stay away from coil if you can't handle it and stop trying to get it nerfed

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So, let me get this straight, you are stating that there are players who are jerks to others in-game because they are upset that some random person on the Internet went to SE's forum and asked for something to be made easier?

Really?

I mean, really?

Holy crap, talk about a razor thin justification for poor behavior.

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Nobody would be upset if SE didn't listen to people crying. Numerous things has been nerfed because "it's too hard ;_;"