Dear Yoshi & Team: About Current TT Tournament Model

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

If you deny legit winners the card, you can possibly lose their sub forever. How can you not realize that some people take this very seriously?

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If people were to quit that they took a card away that they might of won legitimately, then theirs just as many people who were close to the top scores before unnatural scores started filling the ranks that might quit if they reward players who cheated to get a card they would have won. SE needs to nullify this tournament or Fix the Tournament and reward the Lightning Card just this week to all participants.

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Originally Posted by Curatio_Magus

You have just as much an all-or-nothing mentality as those that say "unless you can guarantee that no cheater is getting a card, then I do not support this".

Just clarifying.

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Please, please quote where I said I didn't have that mentality. Actually, please quote where I said I needed clarification on my own point of view.

I fully realize that my stance is the direct opposite of the person I am debating with. Because that's what this is: a debate

My OPINIONS, (which I have stated many times that is all they are) don't hold any weight or bearing on what may or not be done. So exactly what are you clarifying? Did you make this post so you could understand it better? I mean....

Anyway...

A) This reason can also be used with the same weight, against nixing a tournament. None of you have any proof that some Triple Triad prodigy won't go 15/15 legit and beat a win trader on every single server. I mean, there are thousands of people per server right? You folks are crying wolf when you hear the howls in the night, the wolf has not even accomplished anything yet. Try again. There is still 5 days for real players to win as well.

B) I do not believe more subs will be lost due to this, because as you just said, this tournament is repeatable and will be offered again. Cheaters are going to find their ways to cheat. Should we shut the entire game down because merc's are selling content clears? SE has already said this is not even in violation of the ToS. In my opinion, it's in violation of morals, and I think they need to fix future tourneys. Don't release another tourney until the structure is sound. (you do have a valid point here though...)


So as much as my argument is invalid, neither is the person's who I responded to who wants to completely delete the competition because of his knowledge of what's going on in his server. It's equally as invalid as you attempting to single me out for sharing a differing opinion as yours. Just as you said, no one has won yet. That also includes win traders....

I am not a GM, a dev or anything else. I do not have finality over this matter. But I damn sure have the right to speak how I feel. If you don't agree with that, it's fine with me.

Just clarifying.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

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My only point is that you are being just as extreme as your opposition. Not that you are indeed in opposition.

All-or-nothing statements are obvious oppositions, however, one does not need to be all-or-nothing to be in opposition.

Just clarifying.

Here's my solution:

DF Triad -> Lose once, you're out of the tournament. Win, and you can play again.
At the end of the tournament, the wins are tallied and the person with the most wins... wins.
As such, potentially a person with 2 wins could win the tournament. If it's a tie, then a sudden death sounds good. Or to prevent a tie you could include the number of cards flipped into a score, which should drastically reduce the odds of a tie.

You could also make it so anyone with the Lightning card couldn't participate, and have a separate MGP tournament.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Do you know for a fact that all 60+ servers have cheating involved?

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Yes. Once one server has it, then all servers have it. That's the curse of the internet that once something is known as an exploit and communicated it exists everywhere.

How I would do this tournament:

1. Each player gets 3 lives. Lose 3 times and you're done. You can earn no more points after this.
2. The All Open rule is not in play for tournament matches. This is to prevent the use of solvers.
3. Matches are made by the Duty Finder matching players with similar numbers of points. Language option has no effect.
4. Winning against a player with few wins gives negligible points. Point values increase exponentially the more wins an opponent has. A no win player might be worth 10 points, but a 10 win player might be worth 1,000.
5. Draws give no points but don't take a life.
6. Most points wins.

We still use points instead of wins to account for the Duty Finder having to make concessions in matchmaking due to queue times. Since players no longer select their opponents, the opportunity to game the system is reduced. Even if the Duty Finder is gamed in off peak hours, since low win players reward few points, the incentive to try is eliminated.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

If you deny legit winners the card, you can possibly lose their sub forever. How can you not realize that some people take this very seriously?

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How many legitimate winners would this effect? A handful? Meanwhile you have an entire games playerbase up in arms. If SE rewards those who exploited their way to the top, it will set a very negative precedent in this game. As I mentioned earlier, the best course of action would be to cancel the event/all MGP rewards & give out Lightning cards to all participants. Then overhaul the tournament system where it cannot be abused.

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Originally Posted by Zanarken

Then overhaul the tournament system where it cannot be abused.

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so, no tournaments ever?
because, everything can and will be exploited. its just blindly naive to think that there is any chance that anything unexploitable will ever exist.

Thats the reason why real tournaments of any kind normally have at least one instance of people/referees watching over it to ensure, everyone play by the rules. even then,. its not guaranteed that everything is 100% legit.
sad? yeah, but true.

i dont even care about gettin rewards or not just cant stand cheating in any game.. the way current tourneys are even the basic decks can end up top of the rankings really pointless to farm hours n put in effort to hit the 60 card mark if ppl can just throw gil around for wins and ranks in the tourneys hope they implement a quick fix b4 the end of this tourney or b4 the start of the next 1

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Originally Posted by Eii

so, no tournaments ever?

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I think we would all like to see additional tournaments, but ones with actual structure to them where players do not have the freedom to choose their own opponents & with rules that limit abuse. If they do intend to have additional tournaments, they need to allocate more resources to it. I've attended a few card tournaments over the years & this was by far the least organized event that I have ever been apart of. I truly believe it was just an honest mistake/oversight on Square Enix's behalf & they seem to recognize that. That however, does not make it ok to reward players who blatantly cheated legitimate players out of an exclusive card & 140,000 MGP. I think very few would be upset if SE came forward & announced

"Hey community, we made a mistake. Event has been cancelled. Rewards removed but all participants will receive a Lightning card."

(continued)

Is that fair to players who won through legitimate means? No. However, I think even they would recognize how important it is that the integrity of the game is maintained. Despite not winning MGP rewards, they would leave with Lightning card & the confidence that they technically won the first tournament. Meaning there is a strong likelihood they will win the second.

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Originally Posted by Curatio_Magus

B) If you believe that someone will unsub strictly, and only because they failed to gain a single card that they very well may not have won in the first place, hasn't actually even won yet, and will be able to win again in the future... then you must believe more subs would be lost by allowing what many believe to be cheaters winning the cards

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I don't think anyone would unsub for a single thing, unless that thing is the sole purpose of you subbing, which I doubt would happen with TT. However, little things add up. You could take the disappointment and move on, if it happens too often with different content, someone could end up just giving up on the game because that person might feel it's a waste of time or burnt out. Telling from experience here. I have quit games because of minor disappointments on content I was expecting and had nothing much to do outside that, except some carrot on a stick farming which made it worse, so I just decided to stop playing. I personally felt really disappointed when I saw people buying wins (and actually got the top rankings currently) that it kinda pushed me down on obtaining more grinded cards like Onion Knight or Bartz because I know I wouldn't be able to finish a collection. I know it shouldn't affect someone that much, is a minor thing but still bothers me. I'm not saying I should be given the card directly to my inventory, I would gladly earn it, but you know... actually having a chance. I like collecting stuff from games I play, I don't wanna farm for the newest items and throw away the old ones. I like storing what I've achieved the time I've played the game(s), and I always try to get whatever is at my reach to complete a game. Would this make me quit? no, but together with past events regarding "useless vanity stuff", it adds up on the list of items of collection you'll never have.

I don't really agree with it but you can't call it cheating unles there is a rule to forbid it.

It's like the people who buy a T9 clear.

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Originally Posted by Shadray

I don't really agree with it but you can't call it cheating unles there is a rule to forbid it.

It's like the people who buy a T9 clear.

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But that doesn't affect other people. I mean, I don't care if 10 or 1000 players have bought the T9 clear, because that doesn't affect me or others.

Tournament affects us all, and if there's a way to cheat and get first by exploiting the system, it's unfair for everyone; a broken system.

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Originally Posted by Edeline

I don't think anyone would unsub for a single thing, unless that thing is the sole purpose of you subbing, which I doubt would happen with TT...

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I concur. The belief itself that removal of the prizes from the tournament (not individuals, as again, nobody has won or lost anything right now) solely causing unsubs is a little ridiculous. I also agree that it can be another straw to be added towards unsubbing. I would say though, that the number of straws due to the removal of prizes is less than the mass amount of straws divvied out due to allowing the issue to actually take place. It's quite obvious in assessment of comments that it's a 10:1 issue on the subject.

I felt the same as you when the issue arose. Why even finish my games? What was the point? The cheating... the limit of games played so low that it's effectively RNG... It's the knowledge that the lightning card was gained, by an overwhelming likelihood, via cheating or pure luck. It is a real downer. I also, and very honestly, feel sorry for the winners. That card doesn't represent anything but the smear of the two methods of achievement... that sucks for them.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

But that doesn't affect other people. I mean, I don't care if 10 or 1000 players have bought the T9 clear, because that doesn't affect me or others.

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Yeah, that won't affect any group of people who may recruit this person into their newly made FCoB static, when he doesn't know simple mechanics but knows how to run into a wall perfectly. Just because it may not affect you, does not mean it won't affect others.

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Originally Posted by Curatio_Magus

The belief itself that removal of the prizes from the tournament (not individuals, as again, nobody has won or lost anything right now) solely causing unsubs is a little ridiculous.

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I'm not sure if you realize that Gold Saucer has been advertised as a thing coming for over a year now. It was initially supposed to come out in patch 2.2. Obviously it got pushed back a bit, but Triple Triad was announced to be a thing many months ago.

I can probably link you multiple replies on threads in this very sub-forum with people reacting exactly like I said. This is not a belief, it is a direct representation of actual sentences I have seen written on this exact forum. I've personally talked to people who were solely waiting for Gold Saucer, and was the only reason they re-subbed to this game. You may think it's ridiculous (I do too for the record, there's more to the game than 1 piece of content), but that doesn't make it any less true. You still have a valid point about that same sentiment affecting more people inversely (people leaving because cheaters won).


It's cool though. I've said my piece. I don't really have anything else to contribute to this thread, so I don't feel the need to return. Still no cheating on Goblin, so that concise little remark made on the previous page about the information being on the internet, therefore it happens everywhere.....

Maybe you should make an alt and come corrupt Goblin too /shrug At least you can prove yourself right.

I don't mind if people don't agree with me, and my "extreme" attitude may be just as bad as the people's who advocate putting a kibash on this whole tournament. But I will stand by my opinion. I just don't like seeing people negatively affected who don't deserve it. But w/e. SE will do what they deem necessary, and either way I'll be OK with it. I didn't cheat and that's good enough for me.

Just for the record. SE has never done anything in this game since 2.0 to punish anyone who has cheated, except for the first groups beating Twintania with obvious cheat methods.

PvP win trades - nothing
Selling content clears - nothing
Selling Eternal Bond Platinum packages - nothing except a "please don't do this" message
Titan-egi tanking Ramuh - Titan was nerfed but no wins were removed

The precedence is there. Cheating in Raids seems to be the threshold to action.

Just my 50 gil. I talk to much for it to be 2 gil :p

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

I'm not sure if you realize that Gold Saucer has been advertised as a thing coming for over a year now. It was initially supposed to come out in patch 2.2. Obviously it got pushed back a bit, but Triple Triad was announced to be a thing many months ago.

I can probably link you multiple replies on threads in this very sub-forum with people reacting exactly like I said. This is not a belief, it is a direct representation of actual sentences I have seen written on this exact forum. I've personally talked to people who were solely waiting for Gold Saucer, and was the only reason they re-subbed to this game. You may think it's ridiculous (I do too for the record, there's more to the game than 1 piece of content), but that doesn't make it any less true. You still have a valid point about that same sentiment affecting more people inversely (people leaving because cheaters won).

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The arguments you use in this discussion are kind of awkward because the group of people you say you represent, are actually for the most part also those affected by the cheating taking place.
Obviously, if people are cheating this much it becomes impossible for those that awaited the Golden Saucer with such anticipation, to actually obtain the prices.


That is why the belief that the removal of the prices alone would cause such a level of unsubs to happen, is ridiculous.
Because the cheating is the real issue.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Yeah, that won't affect any group of people who may recruit this person into their newly made FCoB static, when he doesn't know simple mechanics but knows how to run into a wall perfectly. Just because it may not affect you, does not mean it won't affect others.

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That group of 7 other people would notice him being bad and just kick him and replace him. Which in the end still would not affect me in the slightest and barely inconveniences 7 other people, but in no way does it prevent them from completing T13. If he buys his T9 clear and I somehow manage to actually compete it normally his win in no way prevents me from acquiring mine. Winning a tournament, however, is a zero-sum game. In order for someone to win everyone else has to lose. Let's say for argument's sake that only the top ten players are the ones cheating the system. One guy out of that ten cheated better and won this week and got the 140k and 3 people got the card. That's 7 out of ten cheaters that still don't have the card and will be playing the same way next week for the same odds. On top of that you don't eliminate the 3 people who did get the card from playing as well, and the likelihood they'll not do the same thing again is pretty slim since the grand prize is always 140k mgp.

I say cancel the tournament, give all the participants the consolation prize of 1000 mgp, and eliminate playing other players for the tournament if it's only going to be best point accumulation out of 15 hands. Require playing an NPC that has EVERY card in the game and apply the random rule. Best score total out of 15 hands wins the tournament.

I don't like the idea of Playing NPCs for the tournament. It would be better than the current conditions, but I don't play chess vs computers. It's boring. Playing against ppl is where I (and others) hoped it would set the tourney apart from just pulling up a stool at King Elmer...

Haven't posted on here for a while but i thought i needed to with this tournament.

I think it would be a good idea to keep it how it is, so its less change from SE side but have the rewards based on amount of points you get and top 20 just get MGP. So say everyone over 1200 points get lightning card, this way people who enjoy playing against others can do so, but have a chance of getting it if you play elmer and win 15 times. This will not stop people cheating their way to the card, but wont stop non cheaters getting it.

Eruantien, you can get over 1200 points just from playing against NPC's, i made a few early mistakes, so decided to just get as many wins as possible to get Shantotto from Tournament Wins, take a few weeks but still, i got 1250 ish from 12 wins, 2 draws and 1 lose against npcs, mainly Jonas i think is his name

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Originally Posted by Eruantien

Haven't posted on here for a while but i thought i needed to with this tournament.

I think it would be a good idea to keep it how it is, so its less change from SE side but have the rewards based on amount of points you get and top 20 just get MGP. So say everyone over 1200 points get lightning card, this way people who enjoy playing against others can do so, but have a chance of getting it if you play elmer and win 15 times. This will not stop people cheating their way to the card, but wont stop non cheaters getting it.

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I really like this idea.

So it seems they're really just going through with this joke of a tournament and giving the Lightning card to the biggest cheaters of each server? I honestly cannot fathom what they were thinking when designing this. Or when deciding to stick with it and let it happen rather than hotfix-cancel the tournament until the system is reworked.

Has there been any developments regarding this tournament? I'm glad SE is looking into making adjustments for future tournaments, but what will come of this tournament? There is a ton of controversy surrounding it & if SE plans to reward those who cheated legitimate players out of winning it will set a very negative precedent.

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Originally Posted by Zanarken

Has there been any developments regarding this tournament?

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Based on what's been said, it doesn't seem like they're going to do anything in response to the possibility that winners of the current tournament could have cheated to obtain their prizes. Nothing has actually been stated, and I assume they're purposefully avoiding saying anything other than, "We'll fix the rules for next time." I also assume that the problem on their end with cancelling the tournament and not awarding prizes is that they can't really prove who cheated and who didn't. That's really their biggest defense to letting this tournament stand as is, they can't prove anything to warrant taking the prizes away from the winners.

Yes, the problem is that there's no way to prove it, but of course there's people that has and will do it on every Tournament.

The team can always just find another way on a hotfix/patch. I really was expecting something exciting with the Triple Triad, and it's so sad that a Tournament like this ruined the fun around it D:

all the super organized power-winners are coming out in force tonight, I'm about to be knocked from 2nd place to 4th.
I should've abused the system ]:

The tournament format is so bad... having played many different card games especially poker this is one of the worst formats I have ever seen... on Lich server the top 5 have all cheated... :( Choosing which players you play and being able to play the NPCs is a big turn off I'm not sure how they decided that was a good idea, who comes up with this sort of a design for a tourney... all card game tourneys involve some kind of luck and some skill there is neither if you can just exploit by playing who ever.

I'm actually really disappointed in the end with TTT (Triple Triad Tournament) not what I expected, it could of been a more intense/epic experience now it just feels pointless knowing that players will cheat because of how SE made it :/

They should of done a bracket tournament structure 16 or 32 or 64 ppl kinda like pvp frontlines using duty finder with all the players in all your servers in your data center where you can enter up to 7 mini tournaments in a week that way it's as random as it can get and you get more points for finishing in higher places and the players with the most pts at the end of all the 7 mini tournaments in that week are the winners.

Example for 32 player mini tournament:

1st 15pts (won all 5 matches)
2nd 10pts (won 4 lost 1)
3rd-4th 7pts (won 3 lost 1)
5th-8th 5pts (won 2 lost 1)
9th-16th 3pts (won 1 lost 1)
17th-32rd 1pt (lost the match)

If there is a draw the match will be played again but players will be able to change their deck unless one of the rules is sudden death.

When players are knocked out of the tourney they can then either quit or watch the other matches while the tournament is still being played. Players will not be able to see who they are playing against until the end of all the matches and the results are shown.

7 mini tournaments played during the week with the highest amount of pts that can be earned being 105pts and with maximum amount of 35 matches in total if you are able to win all your matches in all 7 tourneys. Each player will be able to enter up to 7 so they will be able to play at least 7 matches in that week if they lose all their matches.

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Originally Posted by ZellosWilder

The tournament format is so bad... having played many different card games especially poker this is one of the worst formats I have ever seen... on Lich server the top 5 have all cheated... :( Choosing which players you play and being able to play the NPCs is a big turn off I'm not sure how they decided that was a good idea, who comes up with this sort of a design for a tourney... all card game tourneys involve some kind of luck and some skill there is neither if you can just exploit by playing who ever.

I'm actually really disappointed in the end with TTT (Triple Triad Tournament) not what I expected, it could of been a more intense/epic experience now it just feels pointless knowing that players will cheat because of how SE made it :/

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Exactly. Same here with tournament experience. I'm still shocked SE never did a hotfix. People keep saying the reason is that they can't prove who cheated so it would be taking card from the legit players. No it would not be taking a card because they would have to have the card first. I'm extremely diappointed now that many cheaters will have the Lightning card, and even that in and of itself is flawed having the winning card exclusitivity affect gameplay instead of it just being card vanity.

So, as expected, tournament has closed and cheaters got their cards and high MGP rewards. Now, I'm left wondering if there will be any sort of compensation for players that actually cared about the Tournament and felt let down by the lack of "fairness".

Presently, we're left with no choice but to accept that we got screwed for playing legitimately and wait for a new tournament that might or might not be cheating-proof. Meanwhile, players that *smartly* chose the best way to get their Lightning card will obviously have the opportunity to get the next card in line on the next tournament. In other words, cards collectors like me have no way to catch up anymore, even if we take into consideration that Lightning's tournament will eventually be back.

I ran out of salt, rant over

I know this is going to sound melodramatic, but I am pretty disappointed with how this was handled. It has left a negative connotation with both Triple Triad as well as the development team for not supervising/organizing this tournament. It was very clear from day 1, that a large # of individuals were not playing through legitimate means. Players selling wins for gil, players within same FC boosting one another in the open. Yet, no action was taken. Is there no governing body in this game? We have gold spammers harassing players several times an hour, we have bots everywhere & now this. Does game integrity mean nothing to Square Enix?

A lot of people out there don't care if they are ruining your experience or not. I just came back after a couple months off specifically for Triple Triad because I loved the game. Played against all the NPCs and collected every card possible except Gaius (I can collect 100+ of 3 other cards this guy holds and can't get one Gaius?). Entered the tournament and stressed out highly over every match, and ended with a score of 1651, which I am still extremely proud of. And about 24 hours before the end of the tournament, two players magically end up with scores 200-350+ points higher than me. One positive, I will not stress out over how I play anymore because the end results will not matter.

Maybe something will change over time, and I can resume my hunt for rare cards, but for now there's nothing I can do but wait. Unfortunately the people who do not care about your well-being will find the loopholes. It was the first tournament, and something was bound to go wrong.

SE should take a lesson from this. Next time you introduce a new tournament style event, make the first run of it a testing ground with only middling-tier rewards. If the rewards for this hadn't been so astronomically rare and lucrative, people wouldn't be nearly as up-in-arms about the rampant exploiting. This first tourney should have just had a 10k reward to anyone in the top 20, 20k to the top three, and maybe some annoyingly rare, but not unobtainable, 5-star card as the reward instead. The Cloud Strife card would have been an acceptable first reward, since I doubt anyone has it yet at this early stage, and it would still be there for anyone who wants it someday. This way they work out the inevitable bugs, and no one has to feel like they were cheated out of something truly unique when the inevitable bugs are inevitably exploited.

Congratulations to all the filthy cheaters.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Greetings,

We've been reading over all your feedback regarding Triple Triad tournaments and sharing all of it with the development team. They would like to look into adjusting future Triple Triad tournament rules based on suggestions and feedback.

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It appears the top to finishers in the first tournament on Balmung both bought victories, using shouts and Party Finder to find people willing to sell their win records for a few filthy gil.

Just incase there was any doubt at this point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptm5...ature=youtu.be

Grekumah, what is being done about this? How much more proof do you need that this tournament was a disaster & legitimate players were robbed?

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Originally Posted by Zanarken

Just incase there was any doubt at this point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptm5...ature=youtu.be

Grekumah, what is being done about this? How much more proof do you need that this tournament was a disaster & legitimate players were robbed?

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Honestly, after what i just saw i think we all deserve a Lightning's card in our Mog mail. Please make it happen Grekumah ; ; i beg of you , for this is too much to take...

Frustation is what im feeling right now.. im speechless

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Originally Posted by Adelphe

Eruantien, you can get over 1200 points just from playing against NPC's, i made a few early mistakes, so decided to just get as many wins as possible to get Shantotto from Tournament Wins, take a few weeks but still, i got 1250 ish from 12 wins, 2 draws and 1 lose against npcs, mainly Jonas i think is his name

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It was a bit of a guess since I didnt fight any npc's just saw that elmer said 100 when i had not played anything meaning about 120 for a win with diminishing returns as you got higher scores. still my idea works with changing the amount required as higher, the 1200 was just a finger in the air number