A request for some tough content.

@ Chinchilla :

You said, everything i wanted to post here and more. you talkin straight out of my heart ! thanks alot for that !
it would be just sad if FFXIV gets nothing like the ground Kings and other FREE roaming HNMs like FFXI had.
/kneel
Fyobi

I think if we had a cap at cross classing skills to half your current lvl aka what we had in FFXI and we had a restriction on job changing mid dungeon run then we would be struggling at the current dungeons, especially when trying to do speed and/or 5 chest runs.

I 100% agree with this topic though, and I hope we get more many many bosses that require much greater organization then we have now.

If you want more difficult content do things with fewer archers and conjurers lol. Anyway it wouldnt be best to ask for more difficult content before they finish tweaking out the new battle system and job system as they have to balance the content around both of those. Once those 2 systems are at a good enough level then they can give out challenging content.

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

I think if we had a cap at cross classing skills to half your current lvl aka what we had in FFXI and we had a restriction on job changing mid dungeon run then we would be struggling at the current dungeons, especially when trying to do speed and/or 5 chest runs.

I 100% agree with this topic though, and I hope we get more many many bosses that require much greater organization then we have now.

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a lot of people do still struggle with the current dungeons, especially if the party isn't "optimized."

-1 to the OP- JJ. Does there need to be more "tough" content, sure, but there are about 100 other things they can implement before this to make this game a critical success. If the game doesn't suceed it doesn't matter that they added tough content. As mentioned, the average player struggles with the current dungeon and its been a nice challenge over the previous content. Maybe they just need a "hard mode instance" for the 100 or so players (like you) that need it on the servers. You could get a special drop (s) for your efforts. As far as tactics, I hope they expand on those as well, if nothing else this was a great beginning.

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Originally Posted by Archadius

I disagree with the whole "not knowing is not tough content" bit because learning how to do it is part of what makes it difficult. Of course once you know what you're supposed to do it becomes easy... "Practice makes perfect". HOWEVER! I do agree with the general premise of this thread, because I would like to see SE continue to pump out a variety of content, including some very challenging stuff to sate the hunger. Therefore, +1.

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This is completely wrong. Not knowing how to do something is not difficult because once you know how to do it it becomes easy. People figured out a few ways to take down Vrtra, Kiting and using Avatars for damage, having BLM kill the adds and a Monk merit party. Or even TP burning him, but even though you knew for sure both those strategies were possible, it assured nothing, it was still difficult. Speed run was not in the least bit difficult once you did it a few times. Everyone in our LS has a bow less than a month after it came out. Thats not challenging.

Maybe 30-45 minute boss fight might be a tad steep. I do agree with your idea in general, I don't want content focused mainly on challenges, I want it focused on heavier difficulty of the content itself. The ogre and Batraal are ridiculously easy to tank, assuming everyone around you knows what they are doing. Leave challenges for the achievement system. I think to balance out better gear, I would make it based on rarity, not how fast you can get it. The idea of letting you back in anytime is a great idea, but making speed run content gives you less opportunity to enjoy the dungeon.

I would actually like a large scale raid like WoW's, where there are several bosses and a major boss at the end, all difficult, requiring strategy on each one, no time limit, and we can scale through it at a reasonable pace. Like say there are 12 bosses, your LS takes down 4 of them one night, but everyone is tired and doesn't feel like going through anymore for the night, so we continue it again the next day. You have a weeks worth of time from when you enter the dungeon to complete it, after that, it resets. Its difficult, would help cater to casual players. There would be some tweaking to be done to cater to FFXIV's system, but something similar to this would be a major approach for the game, and I am sure it would be approached more positively than negatively.

As a former hardcoreish now casual, I would like to see really hard fights that are really easy to get to. I don't want to invest hours into getting a group and getting to the event. Make fights a little more accessible and then you can go nuts on the difficulty.

- Make barbaric yawp relevant.
- Create a mechanic requiring perfect timing of diversion/decoy by the entire party.
- Improve the effectiveness of various damage types (blunt, piercing, etc) and build upon this concept. IE mobs that change damage-type resistance/immunity.
- Add dungeon traps that require precise timing and movement to circumvent.
- Require the party to split up and fight X-number of bosses concurrently.
- Dungeons where tunnels/rooms periodically change.

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Originally Posted by Mattei

This is completely wrong. Not knowing how to do something is not difficult because once you know how to do it it becomes easy. People figured out a few ways to take down Vrtra, Kiting and using Avatars for damage, having BLM kill the adds and a Monk merit party. Or even TP burning him, but even though you knew for sure both those strategies were possible, it assured nothing, it was still difficult. Speed run was not in the least bit difficult once you did it a few times. Everyone in our LS has a bow less than a month after it came out. Thats not challenging.

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Perhaps he could have posted it different, something along the lines of:
For the skillful learning how to do something is part of the difficulty.

If something is exactly as hard as it was before you learned how to do it properly your still doing it wrong. xD

Also in the past in other mmos, most people just went into a raid/dungeon already knowing the situation because they use guides and walkthroughs for everything and dont figure things out themselves.
They then proceed to call stuff easy.

I would like to put my two cents in as a representative of the minuscule group of players I will call "eccentric casual" players. I have never played games in a way that would be described as "hardcore"; even in FFXI in which I managed to obtain a relatively high degree of gear was only through the sheer number of years that I played it. That being said, I can honestly say that the fact that hardcore content existed and was an option, something to look forward to, gave me a great amount of enjoyment. I likely do not speak for many of my casual brethren, but I for one, would relish the addition of hardcore content, even if I myself will likely not see it for many months ore even years to come.

As an aside to M.D. Mog, what I would give to be able to hire you to work on a few mobile games I am developing with a group of acquaintances. Unfortunately, we have no money to pay even ourselves on this first project, pro-Bono work is quite spiritually rewarding but damn if it isn't hard on the pocketbook. I wish you luck getting a job at SE or EA, and would sign such a petition if one exists.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...625#post245625

Roughly 1 month ago you told us easymode was over and the final boss was a BEAST. I dont play fighting classes anymore so I dont know if you were right then or now. Why you keep flip flopping its only been a month bro!

I'm just wondering if you played wow and subconsciously plagiarized the alar fight or if was just a coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

As a former hardcoreish now casual, I would like to see really hard fights that are really easy to get to. I don't want to invest hours into getting a group and getting to the event. Make fights a little more accessible and then you can go nuts on the difficulty.

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Like a BCNM concept from FFXI? (Which could be done with special leves too)

we need more raid instance with more boss
hnm no thanks, hnms was easy if your ls have bot army
hnm battle was easy only tank spank

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Originally Posted by Anon

I'm just wondering if you played wow and subconsciously plagiarized the alar fight or if was just a coincidence.

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I played wow from vanilla to BC, then quit.

I must say however, there has to be a finite amount of strategies available in a MMO type system. Any idea is bound to be "like" another.

But no, I never heard of that fight until now. =(

i want some kick ass story lines like all FF have

Liked. I was going to do something similar, perhaps I will somewhere down the line. I just wanted to encourage competitive gameplay. I respect all those linkshells out there who troubleshot their way through Dzemael Darkhold without a single QQ on the forums.

Some linkshells made a name for themselves in 1.18 and I really hope more linkshells get a chance to shine in 1.19 or whenever more difficult content arrives.

I'm a competitive player and if people are going to promote casual hand-holding, baby content, I'll promote competitive, challenging content.

I completely agree with the OP - 150%

I too would like long (20-40min) fights that test not how long a player can "rinse and repeat" the same mechanics or movements over and over, but will test how well they know how to dynamically use the abilities of their job/class to its fullest. That is why I'm very much so eagerly awaiting the "fixes" to the job/class and battle systems. Though the changes that have been made in 1.18+ have been amazing first stage(s) I am still doubtful such content can be introduced that would provide such a challenging test until these "fixes" take place. Again, which is why I'm eagerly awaiting 1.19 and 1.20!

Also, similar to what the OP stated, I too do not wish to remove or diminish the amount of available content for "casual" players, but at the same time I understand that that description - "casual" - is completely subjective. So, regardless, however the dev team(s) define that word I hope that in the [not too distant] future players such as myself (and, from what it sounds like, the OP too) can look forward to rewards brought not only by time alone but at least equally, if not more importantly, sweat, and of course coupled with collaborative effort.

For me, at least: the more time + the more sweat + the more collaboration = the more rewarding, comradely satisfaction. If content takes too short a time to master, where's the challenge? If content is too easy to conquer, where's the rewarding feeling? If content is surpassed with little collaboration, where's the comradeship?

The problem with a fight that takes a full party and 30-45 min is... if some1 dc during that period, you are pretty much screwed. Right now for us the hardest part of doing speed run is hope for no1 dc or error out (god knows it happens alot... especially during CS). It is ridiculous that once you DC, or even worse, error out, you are not allowed to come back. I've dced during T3 fight when I was had the quest, making the whole thing rather pointless.

This game needs more content before worrying about tough content. Reality of it is, if you design content meant for the top 10% of the population to clear, that 10% grows closer to 100% of your total population. Not a good thing for a game that is already having serious population issues.

I think SE knows this though and will be filling in the content blanks as we go. I doubt there will be any substantial, challenging end-game type content until after PS3 release, and even then it will probably only come after 1 level cap raise. My guess on a roadmap would look something like this. I don't think we'll see most of these things come to pass until next year.

1) Release Class changes, Job system. 1.20, 1.2x
2) Fill in leveling and content blanks from 1 to 50 with more dungeons, raids, instances, quest-hubs. 1.19+
3) Open up Ishgard and related R50 quests/storylines. PS3 Release, PC relaunch. 2.0???
4) Increase level cap to 60. New grind/treadmill target for max cap people. 2.x
5) End-game/tough content for R60 cap and Jobs (AF, dynamis-type instance etc). 2.x
6) PvP. >.> 3.0???

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Originally Posted by Chiz

This game needs more content before worrying about tough content. Reality of it is, if you design content meant for the top 10% of the population to clear, that 10% grows closer to 100% of your total population. Not a good thing for a game that is already having serious population issues.

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Respectfully, where did you get the statistic that out of the entire active player populate there exist only 10% who want "tough" content? If this statistic is in fact true then I would partially agree with you. I don't think that the needs for "more content" and "tough content" are mutually exclusive. More content indeed, yes, but not just "something-other-and-less-than-tough" content.

Just wait for some Ultima Weapon and Omega Weapon battles. Instant 1 hit death abilities etc etc. Zantetsuken stuff.

Most importantly wait for some Rank51+ and beyond content.

i'm taking my time and enjoying it ^^

They need to fix server optimization (seriously) before tackling content that requires high levels of precision and strategy. I haven't even done the current dungeons because it's impossible to find groups for it, but from what I hear they become easy fast. But as Celeras posted last week with the Youtube video, it's obvious the game is not ready for complex content. If they did make "challenging" content prior to server optimization, people will become bottlenecked @ server issues and I guarantee that wont be fun for anyone. =/

As a casual player, though, I'm all for harder content. I'm a little disappointed casual is brought up yet again in relation to skill, but not really surprised.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

So, with that said, I would like to see a boss fight that lasts 30-45 minutes, complex in the ways of what needs to be accomplished to put damage on the boss, actively changing tactics in order to do so, and dependent on good, diverse party makeup.

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Well 30-45 minute fights are irrelevant to difficulty level of a fight. I have played games where some bosses take 10 minutes that was 10 times harder than anything on FFXI. Now I am not totally disagreeing with you because I will "LIKE" your post but I want you to understand some simple facts and not assume that making a fight last longer makes it any harder. Back in the day in FFXI Kirin used to take several hours to beat and that fight was never really hard. It was just a long drawn out process that resulted in a lot of wasted time.

I understand 30-45 minute fights aren't too bad but if you had to run a dungeon that took 30-45 minutes then get to a boss that took that long would be a tad overkill. Now maybe if they added an HNM of sorts or giant cave with a couple trash mobs up front and then the boss of even a BCNM type fight I would personally go for something like that over a FFXI style time sink grind fight.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

Well 30-45 minute fights are irrelevant to difficulty level of a fight. I have played games where some bosses take 10 minutes that was 10 times harder than anything on FFXI. Now I am not totally disagreeing with you because I will "LIKE" your post but I want you to understand some simple facts and not assume that making a fight last longer makes it any harder. Back in the day in FFXI Kirin used to take several hours to beat and that fight was never really hard. It was just a long drawn out process that resulted in a lot of wasted time.

I understand 30-45 minute fights aren't too bad but if you had to run a dungeon that took 30-45 minutes then get to a boss that took that long would be a tad overkill. Now maybe if they added an HNM of sorts or giant cave with a couple trash mobs up front and then the boss of even a BCNM type fight I would personally go for something like that over a FFXI style time sink grind fight.

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Yes, agreed.

A fight that long would need little or no trash mobs in the way.

*liked*

My opinion might not count for a lot being as I'm fairly new to the game (but I have played several other MMOs including FFXI) - enjoying it so far, but I can't wait for chocobos. XD

Anywho... I agree with pretty much everything you said except the whole 35-40 minute boss battles. You can have a tough and challenging fight without it really being more than 10-15 minutes. Personally, I'd rather them focus on making the encounter mechanics interesting/challenging without having the battle last over 30 minutes. That's just me, though. =)

EDIT: And yes, if they do have long fights, little to no trash mobs would be ideal, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Reaujien

Respectfully, where did you get the statistic that out of the entire active player populate there exist only 10% who want "tough" content? If this statistic is in fact true then I would partially agree with you. I don't think that the needs for "more content" and "tough content" are mutually exclusive. More content indeed, yes, but not just "something-other-and-less-than-tough" content.

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Its more of an arbitrary % based on the usual quoted ratio of "Hardcore" to "Casual" players for any particular MMO population. Some games release the % of total population that clear content, or hit certain milestones and it usually hovers in the 5-10% range until they nerf the content for the masses.

While you can certainly have more content that is "tough", if you've read the OP and some of his/her other posts you'd certainly understand he's lobbying for content aimed squarely at this top 10% or so of total population (with Mog it might be closer to 1%). My viewpoint is that you might never see the kind of content aimed at that 10% if you don't make that other 90% happy first. This game certainly lacks enough content to make anyone....hardcore or casual.....happy atm.

--- actually not knowing how to do is like not knowing how to heal- that's technically not knowing how to heal in that case.. making it challenging?

--- learning how to run the dungeon is like learning how to go through a zone.
now fighting Batraal with a technique that you do constantly over and over until it's dead is like killing King Arthur... that i would not consider a though fight.
practice make's perfect true though

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Originally Posted by Chiz

Its more of an arbitrary % based on the usual quoted ratio of "Hardcore" to "Casual" players for any particular MMO population. Some games release the % of total population that clear content, or hit certain milestones and it usually hovers in the 5-10% range until they nerf the content for the masses.

While you can certainly have more content that is "tough", if you've read the OP and some of his/her other posts you'd certainly understand he's lobbying for content aimed squarely at this top 10% or so of total population (with Mog it might be closer to 1%). My viewpoint is that you might never see the kind of content aimed at that 10% if you don't make that other 90% happy first. This game certainly lacks enough content to make anyone....hardcore or casual.....happy atm.

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I think you should re-read the OP,

I enjoy casual content as much as everyone else.

In fact I mentioned that I hope it does NOT retract from the casual content produced.

I simply want some content produced that IS a challenge because, at present, there is none.

Don't attempt to change the meaning of my words.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Example for Roaran:

Enter fight by clicking ??? at special location. (Can only enter once every 23 hours)(so that it can be done once a day)

Cutscene of flying creature, I imagine something like phoenix but with 4 wings and much smaller.

Here are the mechanics:

Bird has 3 phases,

1st Phase:

Boss "lobs" fireballs (random locations) at places on the ground, these areas become zones that remain for the entire fight. They will prevent everyone from "tank and spank" it will also give mele an advantage because they can not be "lobbed" to within mele range. Standing in them causes fire damage over time. Players must avoid these.

2nd Phase: (66%)

In addition to the fire lobs, the boss begins fleeing from its position to a random location. Once it arrives, it "charges" for 5 seconds and emits a substantial aoe. This leaves a "ring" on the ground (hollow in the middle) that can not be stepped in. The AOE is meant to bring players into the circle. You must fight the boss inside this circle (with ever growing less space due to phase 1 skill) If someone is left outside this circle, they will need to run in to dps. (the "ring" will prevent a full archer burn pt)

3rd Phase 33%

The monster will do all previous skills.


This phase is not tanked.

Here he goes into a rage and begins to run around. (this will prevent a full mele burn party) As he runs around, he leaves a trail of fire behind him, (think a leaking gasoline tank lit on fire) so that mele can not "follow". Melee would need to anticipate his moves, spread out and hit him on the run by.

From the fire he "poops" out, comes smaller fire elementals. these are VERY easy monsters to kill, but there is a large quantity of them. (think mage aoe fest) The tank should gather these up and have the mages aoe them down.

Thats my quick thoughts on a boss fight.

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I like this idea.

I was kinda worried at the initial post, because it mentioned timing skills. Due to the server/client relationship, "timing" is largely left up to luck and anticipating the fact that the mob is probably closer than it appears.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I think you should re-read the OP,

I enjoy casual content as much as everyone else.

In fact I mentioned that I hope it does NOT retract from the casual content produced.

I simply want some content produced that IS a challenge because, at present, there is none.

Don't attempt to change the meaning of my words.

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I haven't changed the meaning of your words in the slightest, its quite clear your post is calling for content meant for the chosen few rather than the unwashed masses. Whether you intend for it to detract from casual content or not is irrelevant as any efforts focused toward the hardcore players will inevitably take away from development time spent for casual gamers.

Like I said, SE needs to take care of the casual gamers first or it'll be you and your 7 buddies running "tough" content on an empty server dropping loot only NPCs are willing to buy. While it may be inconvenient for those of us who are hitting level cap on multiple classes and finding little to do, its still the best thing SE can do to ensure the long-term survival of this game.

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Originally Posted by Chiz

I haven't changed the meaning of your words in the slightest, its quite clear your post is calling for content meant for the chosen few rather than the unwashed masses. Whether you intend for it to detract from casual content or not is irrelevant as any efforts focused toward the hardcore players will inevitably take away from development time spent for casual gamers.

Like I said, SE needs to take care of the casual gamers first or it'll be you and your 7 buddies running "tough" content on an empty server dropping loot only NPCs are willing to buy. While it may be inconvenient for those of us who are hitting level cap on multiple classes and finding little to do, its still the best thing SE can do to ensure the long-term survival of this game.

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A few things;

Difficult content is content anyone can do. Casual to hardcore. Don't assume casuals are stupid and cant complete difficult encounters.

With the number of likes my OP has, it is pretty clear that my "7 friends" is a much larger part of the population than you think looking for a challenge.

And finally, if they don't do SOMETHING that proposes a challenge, the playerbase looking for a challenge will eventually just move on to another game.

Losing the "hardcore" group is just as bad as losing the "casual" group. Without both, your game dies. Or you should have just made Hello Kitty online clones, because thats about what it becomes if there is 0 challenge.

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Originally Posted by Chiz

Its more of an arbitrary % based on the usual quoted ratio of "Hardcore" to "Casual" players for any particular MMO population. Some games release the % of total population that clear content, or hit certain milestones and it usually hovers in the 5-10% range until they nerf the content for the masses.

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Why should SE make significant design changes based on arbitrary information though - especially when the basis of this arbitrary information is 100% subjective? The whole notion of "casual" vs. "hardcore" has the same definitions as "hot" vs. "cold". To some native Minnesotan's "hot" may be 85 degrees, and "cold" may be -45 degrees; however, to some Texans, perhaps, "hot" may be 115 degrees and "cold" may be 60 degrees. The same can be applied to any MMO - "casual" could mean playing only 5 hours per week, or it could mean playing only 3 days per week and still participating in "tough" or "easy" content. Conversely, "hardcore" could mean playing 7 days per week without regards to which specific activities such player is participating in, or it could mean being a part of a guild/LS/group/etc that requires a player to be more readily available and adhering to more stricter rules than the US Army. "Casual" vs. "hardcore" - 100% subjective; and I see no correlation between the two when considering what "level" of difficulty content should be.

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Originally Posted by Chiz

While you can certainly have more content that is "tough", if you've read the OP and some of his/her other posts you'd certainly understand he's lobbying for content aimed squarely at this top 10% or so of total population (with Mog it might be closer to 1%). My viewpoint is that you might never see the kind of content aimed at that 10% if you don't make that other 90% happy first.

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Your premise contradicts what you are proposing SE should do. You suggest that SE needs to first satisfy the "other-than-hardcore" 90% of the player population by implementing content that is "other-and-less-than-difficult", but you assert (arbitrarily, I would assume) that the range of difficulty of any given content should be measured by a function of how much of such content has been completed from the "hardcore" (sic) 5%-10% of the entire active player base. So how, then, should SE measure "toughness" of any content if they do not consider this arbitrary 10% which you suggest? Further, how does SE cater to this arbitrary 90% if they, in fact, don't first consider this arbitrary 10% "hardcore" player base?

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Originally Posted by Chiz

This game certainly lacks enough content to make anyone....hardcore or casual.....happy atm.

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Sorry, heh, that's 100% subjective... again.

The problem with challenging is designing it. If it's like the dungeons now, like many said, it's a trial and error and then it becomes easy. Mainly because the mobs (the challenge) never adapt to the player. So it's just a matter of figuring out the set up and go do it. Some people create their own challenge by going with unusual setup, but thats not what we want (i assume).

The other problem is level cap. No matter how challenging your boss is, when the level cap is raised, it'll become a joke. Case in point? the lvl25 dungeon, Sky from FFXI and pretty much every other content after the cap raise to 99. Yes some challenges might require timing and instant change of tactics, but in a game with this much lag, I dont see it coming soon sorry.

Otherwise, I'm all up for it, sure.

In support of this, I've been growing tired lately of everything becoming easier and simplified while core things are being left out.

I don't understand this Casual vs. Hardcore arguing back and forth. If the content is in the middle road Hardcore players tend to call it casual anyways. Oft times Hardcore and Elitists are one and the same, but not always. Casuals don't always end up being people that only play weekends or 2~3 hours a night. I consider myself casual but I'm online a good 7 hours a night and even more on my days off. Tough content is fine. It makes you feel rewarded for completing it. Yes I haven't completed Darkhold but my friends and I are getting better with practice. Since we don't run the dungeon 'optimized' 10+ hours a day our learning curve is a bit longer unlike "hardcore" players that are doing the run "10+ hours a day" and "only go optimized". Give tough content, but don't think that middle ground content is 'Casual suck ass easy mode' because that's a load of Chocobo droppings.

Hardcore pretty much means ppl who put more time into it and wants to be rewarded.

Casual are the players that just want everything to be dumbed down cause they themselves dont have time to put in as much as other players so they scream for things to be super easy and just wants to get it done with no effort at all and wants to feel accomplishment.

Its retarded the players who dont have time cry about things being too hard when in reality its not.. they just need to put more time into it.

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Originally Posted by Chiz

I haven't changed the meaning of your words in the slightest, its quite clear your post is calling for content meant for the chosen few rather than the unwashed masses. Whether you intend for it to detract from casual content or not is irrelevant as any efforts focused toward the hardcore players will inevitably take away from development time spent for casual gamers.

Like I said, SE needs to take care of the casual gamers first or it'll be you and your 7 buddies running "tough" content on an empty server dropping loot only NPCs are willing to buy. While it may be inconvenient for those of us who are hitting level cap on multiple classes and finding little to do, its still the best thing SE can do to ensure the long-term survival of this game.

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I'm a casual player in my gamestyle, and i want what Doctormog wants. Why do these sort of strategies have to be for end game challenges? Throw them in lvl 20, 30, 40 dungs and this would make me squeal with delight. 45 minute fights tho, leave that for end game.

I really think, there should be content for everyone. Right now its more casual than anything else, but also we know that the game it's on a beta stage. As soon as the Dev team feel that their changes are good enough to lead for better content they will introduce it. It's then when we should judge all the content and balancing for different type of players. Patience is a virtue which many people lack..^_^