Idea against Undercutting at the Marketboard (The next.. )

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Originally Posted by dspguy

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I think a list fee might stop people from undercutting by 1 gil. It might force people to start considering what an item is actually worth and the minimum profit they are willing to make.

To expand on your "PF" idea, I'd like them to make it so "Wish Listed" items can have offers associated. It's aggravating to make a wish listed item only to see it sit for weeks and weeks because what you think the value of the item is doesn't coincide with what the buyer wanted to pay.

It'd be nice if buyers could post offers for items so that crafters and sellers can cater to demands without having to guess.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

It'd be nice if buyers could post offers for items so that crafters and sellers can cater to demands without having to guess.

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It is kinda funny that when you list an item, the price is listed as "asking price". Which in the business world means its not set and a buyer can counter offer, which cannot be done here.

As for a re-listing fee, no thanks. Too many times do I put an item up for sale only to see that there are none listed. When I look at the sale history, I take a quick average of what past selling prices were and list it. Then come back later only to see that there are now 10 or more listed each one undercutting the next. Mine now being the most expensive, only to have really no choice ( if I want it to sell) to drop my price.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

It is kinda funny that when you list an item, the price is listed as "asking price". Which in the business world means its not set and a buyer can counter offer, which cannot be done here.

As for a re-listing fee, no thanks. Too many times do I put an item up for sale only to see that there are none listed. When I look at the sale history, I take a quick average of what past selling prices were and list it. Then come back later only to see that there are now 10 or more listed each one undercutting the next. Mine now being the most expensive, only to have really no choice ( if I want it to sell) to drop my price.

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Even with none listed, there's usually a sale history on the item...

I agree and like the sound of having a listing fee for that as well.

Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay.
Thats it.

I think a mechanic could be introduced which would also prevent people completely owning a section of the market.

You cannot list an item for less than 80% of a the median or a specific % of the listings median value of the items listed.
e.g

Vanya silks - 12 listings ranging 55-60k, the system wouldnt allow your listing to go live unless you priced it within the range in line with others or a significant amount of people were trying to list within 5% range either side of your value.

So the masses could inflate or crash the price of items but it would prevent this issue of single undercutters being ridiculous.

Sorry if it didnt make sense, ask I will try to explain it further.



ALSO,

You could introduce a retainer feature
Set up a WTB with them and have them their gil to purchase it so you dont have to stand by the market board to buy what you want at a reasonable price.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

It is kinda funny that when you list an item, the price is listed as "asking price". Which in the business world means its not set and a buyer can counter offer, which cannot be done here.

As for a re-listing fee, no thanks. Too many times do I put an item up for sale only to see that there are none listed. When I look at the sale history, I take a quick average of what past selling prices were and list it. Then come back later only to see that there are now 10 or more listed each one undercutting the next. Mine now being the most expensive, only to have really no choice ( if I want it to sell) to drop my price.

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I wouldn't mind having some bartering functionality via the market board. Honestly, it'd be nice if you could filter based on desired items, or what has been purchased the most lately.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Add a listing fee. Make it 1%. Remove retainer fee. A 1M gil item would then cost 10k to list and another 10k to relist. That would make people think twice about undercutting.

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The issue is the initial undercut. Your competitor automatically will list his/her price below yours locking your items up on the market board. People have this misconception that undercutting occurs after the initial listing but your competitor will undercut you on his/her first listing.

Not to mention, he/she can automatically list it at the minimum profit margin knocking you completely out of the market because if you relist, you relist at a profit loss.

Listing fees have been discussed heavily and we know that even with a listing fee, it does nothing to deter the initial undercut.

Listing fees is a no no.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

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Listing fees would discourage people posting things for absurd prices. You will be less inclined to post something at 10 times the value of the item if it means you are going to spend 10 times the gil posting it.

Also, listing fees won't prevent the initial undercut. I can't think of anything that will prevent that. What it will prevent is subsequent undercuts from being for, let's say, 1 gil because people would lose profit relisting an item 100 times for effectively the same price. Instead, it'll make people think more about how much they can afford to relist for while still making a profit.

Also, it depends on the item. If you get undercut on something like Savage IVs no one is going to care because they sell so fast. If you are selling something that moves slower, like 4* armor, then you are going to be more inclined to relist at a price you think it will sell at.

Lastly, I've noticed people use the MB as storage. A listing fee would also deter this.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

Instead, it'll make people think more about how much they can afford to relist for while still making a profit.

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The fastest way to make currency in any MMO, is to eliminate all your competitors. To have a monopoly of a market. With the listing fee, an individual can immediately place up a specific item at the minimal profit margin and force their competitor to either relist at a loss or wait until they decide that they no longer want to stay in that specific market.

Listing fees prevent relisting but it doesn't prevent the above from happening, the initial undercut.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

Listing fees prevent relisting but it doesn't prevent the above from happening, the initial undercut.

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If someone is able to do this then that means the other sellers in the market were listing well over the value of the item. If this product moves quickly then one person selling a few items at minimal profit could either be bought and resold at a higher value by the competition or will be bought immediately and the higher products will be purchased as well.

I'm not saying it's the best approach, but your argument is that it's a bad option because it doesn't prevent an unavoidable consequence of market boards as a mechanic. Kind of a loaded argument.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

If someone is able to do this then that means the other sellers in the market were listing well over the value of the item.

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What the market deems it to be sellable at is the value of the item. If the item is selling well at 200k and it only takes 60k to make the item, 200k is not well over the value of the item if it sells at 200k consistently. If I undercut to 60,001 gil and hold it there, no one else is going to make any gil until I move out.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

If this product moves quickly then one person selling a few items at minimal profit could either be bought and resold at a higher value by the competition or will be bought immediately and the higher products will be purchased as well.

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When individuals with a small supply of goods come face to face in competition, demand will eat them both out, or in your example you can buy them out but when someone who has a large supply comes in to competition with someone with a small supply of goods, you can't buy them out.

I'll throw up 3 items at the minimal profit margin and you'll buy them thinking your going to make profit off me because I've priced them so low but what you don't know is that I'm about to dump another 3 on to the market. You buy and next thing you know, I have 3 more at the same price on the MB. You can't make any profit until I move. You can attempt to find out how big my supply cache of goods are at your expense but most people are logical enough to realize they were just converted from a competitor in to a consumer.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

Kind of a loaded argument.

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We've seen it in action for as long as WoW has been around. Go play the auction house there and look around, you'll notice people using the listing fee as a tool to lock people out of the hotter/higher end markets.

Here, without listing fees, you can compete fairly all the way down to the minimal profit margin, against any size merchant, big or small.

I undercut and I love it.

A lot of interesting ideas. Personally, I just want something to stop the small undercuts on big items.

Most of my sales are above 1m gil. The problem is, these items do not sell often. So what ends up happening? Me and 3+ other people spend the entire day undercutting each other by 1 gil hoping to get the next sale.
People tend to buy the first item listed, even if the next one is only 1g more.

I just want a Market system where I can set the price and expect it to sell without me babysitting it. FFXI did this well, as the prices were hidden and players just made bids to "guess" at the price based on the history. I think the biggest issue with the current market is having access to live, real-time prices, without any cost to change your own price.

I've handled this recently by just playing chicken on the market board. Undercut me by 1g, I undercut by 100k. People eventually stop, and if they go below the material cost of the item, I buy it and start fresh.

What PopeHat does .... best method ever :P

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Originally Posted by PopeHat

I've handled this recently by just playing chicken on the market board. Undercut me by 1g, I undercut by 100k. People eventually stop, and if they go below the material cost of the item, I buy it and start fresh.

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Yea. I do this because I don't have time to reach an equilibrium price one gil at a time. I basically decide a minimum price I'm willing to sell for and when I get to that I stop undercutting. At the very least I'm killing that persons profit margins and tanking the market for that item which is a win in my book.

Look, what it all comes down to is supply and demand. If there is too much of a commodity, then buyers will be less inclined to purchase the commodity. in turn, that leads to competitive price wars from sellers, lowering prices constantly in an attempt to sell that commodity. This is where undercutting stems from.

But if a commodity is rare or in demand, such as new items from a recent patch (ie: furniture when personal houses came out), then demand will be so high that most sellers can slap whatever price they want on a commodity and know that someone will still buy it. That's where price gouging comes from.

This is the basic function behind the market. It may not be fair to some, but that is how it is.

That doesn't mean you can't win.

In many cases, if you see prices being undercut to stupid low levels, simply buy it and resell at a higher price. In the end, everyone wins. the seller sold their commodity, you have adjusted the price to a satisfactory level, and the market stays relatively stable.

BUT, the one thing that blows this all to hell are the gilsellers. I cannot express enough my disdain for their tactics. For example, on Leviathan, elemental shard prices were doing pretty well at roughly 100 or so per shard. Suddenly, there would be groups of three retainers with either similar or nonsensical names, all from the same city, selling tens of thousands of the same shard every day for 70-80 per shard. That is a 20% drop in value. Unfortunately, the only way to compete is to sell lower than them. The next day, it repeats. Tens of thousands of shards, at an even lower price. I have a hard time believing an actual player harvests roughly 80,000 shards per day for this, so I feel I can safely assume it is a gilseller.

Undercutting by 1gil or matching the lowest price is the most sensible thing to do in all cases.

Why?

Because FFXIV is not a "commodities" type of economy.

No one buys an alchemist's coat in anticipation for when their alchemist hits 50. They're gonna buy that coat the MOMENT they hit 50 on the alchemist, and they're going to pay nearly any price (so long as it's not unreasonable) when they get there.

FFXIV's economy is a "want it now" economy: when people want something, they'll buy it then and not a moment sooner, no matter how good the price may be because they're not LOOKING for it until then.

The only exception to that rule are people hunting for items that are listed far below normal value. It's kind of astonishing how many people don't use the price history (or choose to ignore it) and routinely list items for 10k+ below what they normally sell for.

I've recently taking to just buying those items and relisting them. They usually sell before the day is out...

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Originally Posted by PopeHat

I've handled this recently by just playing chicken on the market board. Undercut me by 1g, I undercut by 100k. People eventually stop, and if they go below the material cost of the item, I buy it and start fresh.

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I deal with people like you all the time (and win) so I'll share my own perspective. You undercut by 100k at a time? I will still undercut back. You destroy my profit? Guess what? You're destroying your own profit too. I will use your undercutting method against you and drive the profit margin to the bottom and then let yours sell. Market board fighting is as much about maximizing competitor loss as it is maximizing personal profit. In the end, you will either remain persistent and deal with low profit margins for an extended period of time, or you will give up and look for better opportunities elsewhere.

Undercutting is a double-edged sword. The more recklessly you swing it, the more likely you are to lose something big.

Just happened today: someone listen an item for 20k that was selling for 38k regularly.

Bought it last night, mine sold this morning and I absentmindedly made another one. Then IT sold like 20 mins later so I relisted the one that I had bought for 20k.

Seriously, I don't know whether I should encourage people to use the price history or if I should just keep making money off of them...

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Originally Posted by Hohoz

What PopeHat does .... best method ever :P

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Too bad for some items, such as the ones that sell once per day, the market changes enough that what is YOUR break even price (with materials bought 5 days ago) isn't another player's break even point (materials bought today). I had what looks like a player like you buying up my stuff at what they thought was a loss for me. While I was getting a consistent stream of 500k-1M gil from a set of artisan or forager's just from quick sales to these guys. They were probably all smug about it. I'd just make another set of gear in a few minutes, put it back up for sale again.

They eventually stopped buying up my stuff and sold at my price instead (and then of course undercut by 1gil each, since even you 100k undercutters can only go so far).

IMO, that system only works if your competition doesn't actually create a new item again.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

I deal with people like you all the time (and win) so I'll share my own perspective. You undercut by 100k at a time? I will still undercut back. You destroy my profit? Guess what? You're destroying your own profit too.

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Two crafters don't necessarily have the same profit margins for an item at a given price. You don't know what your competition invested into that item. If you bought your battlecraft 3s and he desynth'd all of his from dungeon loot then that's about 500k-1mil of wiggle room he has. It's possible for him to sell his product at a price you simply can't compete with and still make a solid profit.

Honestly, I'd like to see more ways to differentiate products. When everyone is selling identical items then undercutting is the only way we can compete. Sure you have HQing, but everyone knows that NQ is desynth fodder or vendor trash.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

Two crafters don't necessarily have the same profit margins for an item at a given price. You don't know what your competition invested into that item. If you bought your battlecraft 3s and he desynth'd all of his from dungeon loot then that's about 500k-1mil of wiggle room he has. It's possible for him to sell his product at a price you simply can't compete with and still make a solid profit.

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Your example is still a net loss because you simply could have sold the battlecrafts instead and made more gil that way. I farm most of my mats but still include their market value in profit calculations. Again, why? Because the end product better sell for more than the mats were worth. If it's not, sell the mats instead.

undercut but not so much unless the price for the item is ridiculous.

im broke i need to farm everything i need. i dont like crafting i am doomed i will be broke forever

Or just be like Martha Stewart and pull your money out before the MB crashes. Ahahaha.

But no seriously, you're better off just selling goods out of pocket, via PF. This way you avoid tax and you have a set static price. To people who come to you to buy it. You can say no and just move onto the next. I don't play the MB due to people undercutting. It's a schmuck thing to do, but that's the gist of it. Be lucky it's not RMT.

I can see getting frustrated by people who undercut a product by a wide margin, it drives me nuts too (ofcourse its a short drive for me ;p) But I can not get a handle on someone selling something for 1gil on an item that is vendor priced lets say anywhere between 2gil on up. Don't they understand that with the percentage the market takes they are giving away gil that they could have got selling to a vendor? Just to say "I won that auction?" Sorry ....just had to vent ....shakes her head and wonders off..........

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Your example is still a net loss because you simply could have sold the battlecrafts instead and made more gil that way. I farm most of my mats but still include their market value in profit calculations. Again, why? Because the end product better sell for more than the mats were worth. If it's not, sell the mats instead.

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Depends on the time value of gathering said items. Time is money too. Some people don't value their time as high. Also if your short on inventory space. Space is money. Sometimes you want something to move quick so you can sell more or get more things out the door. In order to get things to move you drop the price.

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Originally Posted by Kathyj1508

...But I can not get a handle on someone selling something for 1gil on an item that is vendor priced lets say anywhere between 2gil on up...

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I think these players are just very kind and donate those 1G item to who needed.
It is charity! ^^;

kinda late to this discussion and cant be bothered to read most the posts arguing it all.

from my time as a crafter and selling things on the mb I can happily say I will undercut everyone, why you ask.? well simple I want the sale, and so long as im making gil on what I sell that is fine by me. if it gets so low that the profit is not there then ill bow out or let others sell there stuff, the benefit to me and anyone else doing it is that I then control the market for awhile ad can lists things at a more fair price, as in I make profit but not so much the things don't sell.

if your goal is to get 1mil from each sale then your doing something wrong.. not the making the gil, thats fine, but what is going to happen is they don't sell so fast and then the mats you need to make those items become scarcer because they too don't sell so fast, which in turn drives prices up. now eventually this will be corrected because people see the high value and its mass farmed for quick gil, but it would be better if the prices stayed somewhat stable.. they never will though.

as for the whole subject of massive undercuts, well if its being listed at 1mil and you make it for 20k then guess what its getting undercut massively, if its made for 800k and your selling at 1mil its just because someone got some cheaper or potentially free mats and so can go much lower than you, if you don't like the newer price point sell off move on and come back when the price is back to what you thing the price should be.

a good example is that awhile ago levin barding was selling at its normal value on my server at 500k each, this price had been steady for quite awhile, average profit on it was 150k, then for some reason people started farming ramuh a lot more this allowed me to make them at 150k each, so I made 10.. adding so many to the market is going to cause ripples so what I did was list all 10 at 250k each.. they all sold in a matter of hours, I made 1mil gil in the venture and the market stayed relatively stable, yeah some people undercut me but I had my price and knew they would sell, so sometimes when you see those massive undercuts its just because people now have the means to do it.. best to let them sell of quickly and wait it out.

lessen about the mb that any long term crafter has learned is that if you price fair you'll sell more and hence make more, you'll also maintain the mb in other ways by being more fair rather than gouging every last gil you can. you have to remember most people don't even have 500k never mind 1mil or 100mil

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Originally Posted by chidarake

you have to remember most people don't even have 500k never mind 1mil

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By this point in the game I think most who have been playing a while have 10mil+ atleast.

A friend who is very casual and only sells some gathered has well over 15mil now.

There may be a problem with the "buy up the cheap crap and resell it" strategy.

Let's say I wanna sell an item. We'll call it item A. I look at the price history and see that for the most part, this item sells fairly well at 300k gil. The goods currently for sale are at 150k gil. Assuming I have the capital, I buy up the entire supply and resell everything at 300k. Okay, here's where the problem lies. The person you bought it from just made a sale. He or she will go "Yippie! My item A sold! I'ma put more up!" So what do they do? Put more up at 150k. So Now I have to buy that one and sell it at 300k. But their item just sold again, so they re-list it again...at 150k. So more items are coming in faster than I can (re)sell mine. This depends on the items I guess though.


If the person is smart, she or he will look at the history too and notice the same person bought pretty much the entire supply. If they are REALLY smart, they'll notice the same retainer is selling the same number of items that were just sold...hmmm. Now the undercutter is wise to you and will prolly do everything they can to prevent you from making the 300k sale.

Now, keep in mind I have no idea if this would even happen. I'm not an expert on the MB. I don't have my Doctorate on Marketboardology nor did I write a thesis on the marketboards. I'm just an outsider looking in.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

There may be a problem with the "buy up the cheap crap and resell it" strategy.

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Someone or maybe two people together tried this. When I started off my relic and I needed Battledance 3 to meld, I went to the MB to get it. The cheapest one on there was around 300k. Was like, ok I guess I'll make some armour and SB it myself. Then I checked the history, all the previous sales were for around 50k bought up all by the same two names, almost all of it. Guessing they tried to do what you were saying.

Needless to say when I went back a couple days later the prices were back down to 50k and not a single sale of any above 100k.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

By this point in the game I think most who have been playing a while have 10mil+ atleast.

A friend who is very casual and only sells some gathered has well over 15mil now.

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I can see that being very true, there's so many ways to make gil its laughable now. but I also see a lot of people spending all their gil and then having next to none again. admittedly only for a few days it would seem.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

There may be a problem with the "buy up the cheap crap and resell it" strategy.

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the idea would be to do this with something that isn't so easily replaced or the market moves very fast on those items, in which case you wouldn't try to double up usually but maybe get a few sales with a 50% of normal sale price mark-up.

personally I do this so very rarely and usually only on very rare things like flipping a assassin fry for an extra 1.5mil one time.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

By this point in the game I think most who have been playing a while have 10mil+ atleast.

A friend who is very casual and only sells some gathered has well over 15mil now.

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Even though sealants make it insanely easy to get a nice stack of cash, a lot of the players that farm sealant for income spend it almost as soon as they get it. I'm fairly certain most of my Triple Cream Coffee sales are from sealant money.

Your friend must know how to budget well.

There are lots of people who can't figure out a way to make money. Even crafters. It's weird, I run into people and poll strangers a fair amount. And there are people who play in a way that doesn't activate their challenges and they just can't hold onto gil. Also, Relic is a HUGE Money Synch. And for that matter, Lucis is a huge money synch too depending on how you go about it.

There are a lot of poor people on my server, even ones who have been on since launch.

@OP

When you are the last person or second to last person with an item. Reset it. If there are one or two people selling an item, and they are online. PM them and ask them to reset the price with you.

All of the complaints I've read regarding MB volatility I have seen occur at some point in time. And frankly, I don't have a problem with any of them. A free market such as the MB will always be flexible. How flexible depends on supply and demand. Supply and demand depends on the activities of all players. You can control a market all by yourself, for better or for worse. It's your choice. But how much gil are you willing to risk to control that market? Responsibility can carry a big price tag...

Some players want a nice, stable market place where they can consistently buy what they need way under price or consistently sell their items at a ridiculous mark up. Arguments that systems like this die to inflation or that they eat themselves alive by players becoming self sufficient to avoid price gougers are wrong as the MB is always changing. So long as new players join the server, new content is released, or new recipes added the market will change, adapt and survive.

All players, new and old, should stop complaining about the pricing of items on the MB as there are TONS of ways to circumvent buying or selling specific items at the current price on the MB (and the MB isn't going to change so they're wasting their breath). They should start educating themselves on how they can use the MB pricing to their advantage. I'm new to FF14ARR. I haven't hit 50 with any class and yet I've amassed over 1.7 million gil in my 1.5 months of play (largely from the MB). I don't know the best ways to make money, farm mats, or supply raiders in FF14ARR. I am definitely NOT an expert. I don't have an education in finance or marketing. Heck, I haven't even unlocked half of the systems available for play in the game! But I have sold a large amount of inventory at reasonable, competitive prices.

What I DO know is that markets and pricing are based on what a consumer wants and what they as a whole are willing to pay for it. Not what a seller WANTS to sell or what they feel it SHOULD sell for. If you insist on farming/crafting an item that the market is flooded with, you're obviously not going to make much gil from selling it. It doesn't matter what it sold for in the past. Right now, it won't sell for that. Farm/craft something else. Do some research and you will always be able to find a niche market that needs supply. That's where there is gill to be made. If you don't want to study the MB and price trends to gain a better understanding of how it works, that's fine. But you should't expect to have success when working with a system that you refuse to understand.

Another fun way I've found to get the sale is selling in a stack that matches the exact amount needed for recipes that require that material. For example, if a certain housing material is used in groups of 15, 30 and 60, it makes little sense to sell that material in stacks of odd numbers like 13, 24 or 53. I've found that enough buyers (enough to make this practice profitable) are only looking to buy exactly what they need, even if they have to pay a bit more for that convenience. Also, if they use up all the material they purchase, they don't have any leftover materials to sell back on the market. You don't want your buyers to end up being your competition.