Black Mage Revamp

I just think it's silly that, in a system where players are already casting the same spells over and over, implementing an elemental wheel to add a little more sense and context to the job is considered a system where players will just cast the same spells over and over. Seems like a redundant argument either way.

I want an elemental wheel in this game. Why? Because it makes sense, given the amount of focus on the six major elements: Fire, Earth, Wind, Water, Thunder, and Ice. There is an elemental themed boss for each, there are crafting crystals that are attuned to each of those elements, there are spells for every element currently in the game, and there is already a resistance attribute for every element.

It wouldn't break balance if it was done right. BLMs are already counter-balanced by the fact that they're the only job that can't DPS and move at the same time. One may argue Summoners are in the same boat, but let's face facts: Summoners use DoTs, half of which are instant-cast, and they have pets. So if they have to move around, their DPS isn't going to take nearly as much of a dip as BLMs. But ultimately that's a different discussion for a different thread.

The fact of the matter is that BLMs, as they are structured now, are slaves to a single rotation. Fire -> Transpose -> Blizzard -> Transpose -> Fire, while throwing in the occasional Thunder. That's pretty much it. It's boring as balls and allows for zero variation regardless of combat situation. So if there were an elemental wheel, that would at least allow the BLM to change it up depending on the situation. Make some spells more powerful in some circumstances and less powerful in others. BLM should not be a mindless job, and yet it can be one of the most mindless because the rotation has minimal variation.

Why not give a BLM spells which gives an enemy a temporary weakness to a specific element or nullify elemental resistance? Something synergetic. Like, if you use Fire three times on an enemy, it makes them weak to Blizzard spells, or if you proc Thundercloud, it makes Thunder spells do more damage per tic?

The elemental wheel is very important, but getting back to the original topic, BLMs just need to be less of a blind, mindless DPS job and more of a magical DPS job. The "Batman" of magical DPS, if you will. Just someone who can see an enemy, be like "I have just the spells for this! Stand back!" and unleash a torrent of hurt specially picked out for the enemy in question. Blindly swapping back and forth between the same two kinds of spells is mindless and boring.

tl;dr: Elemental Wheels should be in the game, but should be done right. Ultimately, BLMs need to stop being a mindless job and should have a lot more utility.

Thanks Hakuro...took the words right out of my mouth. BLM are supposed to have a variety of spells at their disposal. In this game, whats really the difference between THM and BLM? Look at the spells you get for BLM doing job quest. What? Almost all are boring. And to me there is already an elemental wheel. Why have different elemental resistances if they don't mean anything for our players? Why should i care for +2 lightning resistance? Like I said and Hakuro, this game already has focus on elements with crafting, weapons, primals, etc. They need to just put their minds together and find a fix. I think for BLM they could do something like this:

Now Shiva is an Ice-elemental being. First off, it bothers me that she has awesome ice spells and is a creature of the frost, yet ice magic hurts her? Absurd. But anyways what if they implemented something like this in the fight with a BLM. Have it so that you can use ice magic on her like so, but when you do, not only does it just do less dmg, but also your mp regeneration is not as good. Now yes, BLM fire should do a bit more dmg to her, but also i think it should make her aggro to BLM more. Because seriously, if I was her and I got hit with a fire spell, im taking whomever tossed it my way out first. That would lead to interesting battles trying to maximize dmg, keeping enemies off of me, and keeping mp up, like what should happen to a powerful mage in a fight. Just one idea of maybe making fight mechanics change to compensate for elements in battle. I just want to not have to use same old spell rotation every single time only because of the way this game rolls. I have more fun playing a mage in games like dragon age. Or at least maybe add stances like what whm has, but the different elemental stance has different strengths/weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

Like I said and Hakuro, this game already has focus on elements with crafting, weapons, primals, etc. They need to just put their minds together and find a fix.

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I get that. It just needs to be fixed in such a way that it works. Like, I dunno, giving BLM certain debuff spells that cut an enemy's elemental resistances or something.

Just a bunch of random spell ideas to follow:

Libra: Identifies lowest 3 elemental resistances on target, reduces them by 20% for 20s. Universal Cooldown.
Librara: Identifies lowest 3 elemental resistances on target and surrounding targets, reduces them by 15% for 20s. Universal Cooldown.
Libraga: Identifies lowest 3 elemental resistances on target and surrounding targets, reduces them by 35% for 20s. Universal Cooldown.
Thaliak's Bookmark (Trait): Libra/Librara/Libraga identifies and reduces the lowest 4 elemental resistances instead of the lowest 3.
(Note: Libra debuffs don't stack with each other)

Nald'Thal's Sigil: 50% of ally's physical damage becomes Fire damage for 30s. 120s cooldown.
Nald'Thal's Zone: All enemies in area of effect have Fire resistance reduced by 50% and 50% of physical damage inflicted by allies in area of effect becomes fire damage.

Inferno: Inflict fire damage with a potency of 250 to target. Target's Ice Resistance is reduced by 50% for 20s. MP Cost: 50%
Absolute Zero: Inflict ice damage with a potency of 250 to target. Target's Thunder Resistance is reduced by 50% for 20s. MP Cost: 50%
Electrocute: Inflict thunder damage with a potency of 250 to target. Target's Fire Resistance is reduced by 50% for 20s. MP Cost: 50%

I think we're focusing too much on the elemental wheel when we shouldn't be limiting ourselves to that. We assumed from the slides that maybe the devs were considering bringing it back but this is not the case. Those slides were shown by a player to Yoshi P and it was said that he didn't seem too receptive to it.

I can't speak for other players but personally I would just like to see some growth in game systems, especially combat. There might be plans for this already and we just haven't been told yet because the expansion if still months away.

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Originally Posted by Razard

Wrong Direction? Or one YOU and a vocal minority didn't like?

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Oh look the poor vocal minority argument again, used every time someone says something against the current design, as i said, if they implemented the game with a well designed and balanced elemental wheel, no one here would be complaining about it, hence wrong direction.
i could have saved this post if you were able to read and understand what others write instead of using cliche arguments.

While I understand many people don't really enjoy the current system of Black Mage. I personally do, it's not overly complicated and I have more fun playing it over any of the other jobs. A change like this would be nice I think, adding a little flavor to the job without changing the fundamentals.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

I just think it's silly that, in a system where players are already casting the same spells over and over, implementing an elemental wheel to add a little more sense and context to the job is considered a system where players will just cast the same spells over and over. Seems like a redundant argument either way.

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It's human nature. People go for the strongest and most efficient way to get things done. Yes, human nature is silly a lot of the time. That's why you design stuff with that in mind rather than expecting people to change for the sake of the system.

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I want an elemental wheel in this game. Why? Because it makes sense, given the amount of focus on the six major elements: Fire, Earth, Wind, Water, Thunder, and Ice. There is an elemental themed boss for each, there are crafting crystals that are attuned to each of those elements, there are spells for every element currently in the game, and there is already a resistance attribute for every element.

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The resist attributes are legacy stuff left over from 1.0, much like stat allocation and, to am extent, the armoury system.

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It wouldn't break balance if it was done right.

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"Doing it right" would require them to scrap conjurer and thaumaturge as currently designed and create a bloated spell list for BLM. You could probably make it a purely mechanical aspect of BLM (no +element stats wasting item budget on gear), but all you'd be doing is adding more buttons and creating bloat on a game that is supposed to be playable on a controller.

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The fact of the matter is that BLMs, as they are structured now, are slaves to a single rotation. Fire -> Transpose -> Blizzard -> Transpose -> Fire, while throwing in the occasional Thunder.

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False. BLM plays under a damage rotation with recovery periods and procs. The three elements play their own roles within the job's combat design, hence why I keep saying it is the best caster design I've ever seen in an MMO.

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Why not give a BLM spells which gives an enemy a temporary weakness to a specific element or nullify elemental resistance? Something synergetic. Like, if you use Fire three times on an enemy, it makes them weak to Blizzard spells, or if you proc Thundercloud, it makes Thunder spells do more damage per tic?

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All you're doing here is creating the same rotation you call mindless but with more time spent casting said same spells and simply involving more button presses.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

It's human nature. People go for the strongest and most efficient way to get things done. Yes, human nature is silly a lot of the time. That's why you design stuff with that in mind rather than expecting people to change for the sake of the system.

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It's still redundant either way you look at it. Using human nature as an excuse isn't relevant to my argument at all.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The resist attributes are legacy stuff left over from 1.0, much like stat allocation and, to am extent, the armoury system.

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If you'll notice, stat allocation and the armory system are still extremely relevant to how the game works.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

"Doing it right" would require them to scrap conjurer and thaumaturge as currently designed and create a bloated spell list for BLM. You could probably make it a purely mechanical aspect of BLM (no +element stats wasting item budget on gear), but all you'd be doing is adding more buttons and creating bloat on a game that is supposed to be playable on a controller.

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False. A BLM can still have an elemental system without altering its spell list all that much. Just remove Earth/Wind/Water from the equation or give enemies multiple weaknesses for both THM and CNJ to exploit. That's why I am convinced that there will someday be a Geomancer job that will focus on the natural elements rather than the arcane elements.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

False. BLM plays under a damage rotation with recovery periods and procs. The three elements play their own roles within the job's combat design, hence why I keep saying it is the best caster design I've ever seen in an MMO.

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Except that the only two procs in the game for BLM are for Thunder... and Fire. There are so many spells that a BLM does not use because they're too busy casting Fire, then Transposing into Blizzard, then Transposing back into Fire again. No BLM uses Surecast unless they're soloing, No BLM uses Convert unless partied with a healer, and no BLM ever really uses Apocatastasis or Manawall ever.

BLMs need to be given a hell of a lot more useful utility than they already have. They are a DPS job that focuses around elemental magic. And goddamnit, they need to be able to capitalize on that usage of elemental magic. Right now, it makes absolutely no sense for elemental magic to NOT be a thing.

The only reason it may be seen as the best caster design in an MMO is because it has virtually infinite MP, and that's only if BLMs slavishly follow their Astral/Umbral rotation cycle. BLMs don't need infinite MP, they need more utility. Sleep is very useful utility. They should also have access to things that drop elemental resistances on enemies, cause melee fighters to inflict elemental damage (like a Mystic Knight's Magic Sword), and truly be the masters of the arcane elements.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

All you're doing here is creating the same rotation you call mindless but with more time spent casting said same spells and simply involving more button presses.

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I'm just brainstorming ideas right now. Not all of my ideas are going to be perfect, and many of them will be worse than what is already in place. But I'm going to keep suggesting them in hopes that IRL RNG gives me the inspiration to think of something truly brilliant.

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Originally Posted by Renik

Oh look the poor vocal minority argument again, used every time someone says something against the current design, as i said, if they implemented the game with a well designed and balanced elemental wheel, no one here would be complaining about it, hence wrong direction.
i could have saved this post if you were able to read and understand what others write instead of using cliche arguments.

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I keep hearing about this mythical "well designed" elemental wheel. Unfortunatly I have yet to hear what this is, or any suggestion which wouldn't break the current class balance, make it so miniscule that they shouldn't have bothered or make it so a class, usually Black Mage, just has 20 different flavours of Magic Missile.

Sometimes cliches exist for a reason.

I think a Geomancer with Wind, Water, and Earth would be a good idea as well. Not for the elemental wheel, but I think that those three elements kind of should have their own focus, and Geomancer has some potentially interesting things they could do. But as Duelle said, there really isn't much point in an elemental wheel. If you want Black Mages to have more utility the elemental wheel isn't going to solve that either. Considering we're likely looking at a few new skills/traits and such, good odds that Black Mages will wind up with more utility, though that really isn't something that applies to them in offline games. They're the spellcasters that hit you the hardest, that's pretty much it.

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Originally Posted by Razard

I keep hearing about this mythical "well designed" elemental wheel. Unfortunatly I have yet to hear what this is, or any suggestion which wouldn't break the current class balance, make it so miniscule that they shouldn't have bothered or make it so a class, usually Black Mage, just has 20 different flavours of Magic Missile.

Sometimes cliches exist for a reason.

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-give all monster 2 elemental resistances and 2 weakness (1 of each for WHM and the other for BLM). resistance -10%dmg, weakness +10dmg.
-turn surecast, manaward and aetherial manipulation into, fire, ice and thunder stances.
-make these stances low level skills.
-taking part of the idea in the op, make every stance switch how element works:
-- in thunder stance: thunder element would be the nuke, the non weakness non resistance element the dot, and the resisted element the MP recovery spells (resistances and weakness must be fixed to not break this rotation)(rotation and skill list would be practically the same)
- to give more utility to BLM, turn manawall into a trigger skill, lets name it "elemental aura", once one nuke rotation have been completed apply a elemental charge(buff) of ice, thunder or fire . upon applying the previously mentioned trigger ability (elemental aura) this elemental charge will be converted into a party buff (elemental aura (5 minutes)), fire: magic attack and physical attack+3%, ice: physical defense +3%, thunder: magical defense +3%, only one can be applied(the rotation would be changed from one stance to another only to apply this minor convenience as needed)
-whm as healer role can keep the same skills, the elemental wheel will keep the dmg balanced by itself.
- keep ligth and dark elements neutral without weakness nor resistances.

This is just one idea, not what they should so, because in favor of convenience the best decision would be leaving BLM as is to not disturb the player base who is already used to it, and applying the elemental wheel only to another job like geomancer or elemnetalist.
This addition could bring elemental weapons to the game, which could give a very small additional damage to auto attack (separated from normal damage) but not be a disadvantage when resisted, adding more flavor tho the game.

Sorry for the semi necro bump..just wondering (And I didn't want to make a new thread), is this gonna happen or was this just a suggestion? :( I really got excited when I thought they were going to finally make BLM interesting.

New threads are preferable to necro'ing.

To answer your question, no this was never going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool

New threads are preferable to necro'ing.

To answer your question, no this was never going to happen.

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Says who?(Seriously asking, not in a sarcastic way) Lol I've been on these forums since 2010 and from what I've seen, if you necro, you get yelled at, if you make a new one, you get told "YOU CANT EVEN POST IN THE OTHER THREAD" so I choose to do this coz its less work >.>

And yeah..lame I guess. What a shame..

Lol, damned if you do damned if you don't.

Anyways, since there hasn't been any mentioned on it I'll have to say its just a rumor for now

My emotions T_T. Went from OMGOMGOMGOMG reading the first post to crashing down when it was revealed it was just a suggestion/Yoshi wasn't receptive of it.

Yup! Me too Magis lol. Maybe...just maybe Yoshida will take the suggestion ; ; I can dream can't I? Haha