Cash Shop: Stifling development.

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Originally Posted by ChibiChan_Hyperion

For example, the Eternal Bonding content was hyped and advertised a long time before we found out that the full experience was going to cost real money. .

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My wife and I got platinum service and didn't spend a single dollar. Just saying, all we spent on it was 4 mil (person was selling them for 3.5 mil, but gave us the pair for 4)

Standard is a relative term. Yes WoW does have a cash shop which does sell minions and mounts but those are special unique not related to any single piece of content. They are not selling past content items (Seasonal Event) nor stuff we would have got from retainers (Metallic dyes). Most other cash shops are F2P so it's not a simple compare of X vs Y. F2P make their money from vanity items and lottery boxes. The Pay 2 Win items are minimal and usually included in a veteran or subscription type setup anyway.

Jynx is right. I'm worried about the future of content because they question is going to be can we sell this in the cash shop and get a way with it. How far is too far till they lose the player trust once again?

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Standard is a relative term. Yes WoW does have a cash shop which does sell minions and mounts but those are special unique not related to any single piece of content. They are not selling past content items (Seasonal Event) nor stuff we would have got from retainers (Metallic dyes).

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No, they just completely lock players out of being able to get certain items, despite the item still being there in the coding. The way SE did it, people can still get the old stuff, and they can focus the new events on new stuff instead. Much better imo. as for the comment about "would have got from retainers" You never know that was the original intent for those dyes. They easily could have been crafted, or quested for, limiting you to 1 or 2 pots. Hell, for all I know the other dyes aren't in retainers either, I've never ONCE seen any of my FOUR retainers bring me back a jet black dye.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Standard is a relative term.

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When the majority of the MMOs and other social games with online features have a Cash Shop or Microtransactions, it's safe to say it's a standard industry practice.

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I'm worried about the future of content because they question is going to be can we sell this in the cash shop and get a way with it. How far is too far till they lose the player trust once again?

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So you're basically admitting that ARR is doomed to go F2P or Freemium? Because the only time a cash shop "goes too far" is when it's their sole source of income. You know, like how D&D Online used to sell 'premium' access in order to access more of the game? That's called Freemium, something ARR is not.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

So you're basically admitting that ARR is doomed to go F2P or Freemium?

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Stop with the hyperbole, what you think is too far might not be the same as others. As soon as they start selling anything that gives a unfair advantage over others in basic gameplay is when at least I will get upset enough to leave the game for good. To be honest this whole wedding band debaucle is bleeding edge on what is acceptable.

Just because I and others are concerned about the future of the game doesn't mean we are yelling from the top of our lungs.
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/q...der-doomed.jpg
We are however expressing our concerns and looking for some transparancy from the development team who has gone radio silence on the topic from day 1.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

When the majority of the MMOs and other social games with online features have a Cash Shop or Microtransactions, it's safe to say it's a standard industry practice.

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Are we talking subscription based MMO's or F2P / Freemium social gaming? Please list other P2P MMOs other than WoW that has the same sort of cash shop ARR does because I'm curious too. But you are correct that the gaming industry trying to see how far they can push it with Capcom being the worst offender.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

So you're basically admitting that ARR is doomed to go F2P or Freemium? Because the only time a cash shop "goes too far" is when it's their sole source of income. You know, like how D&D Online used to sell 'premium' access in order to access more of the game? That's called Freemium, something ARR is not.

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Please don't try to win your argument by putting your words in my mouth. I'm saying what I wrote.

But let's not forget why ARR had to come about to begin with. They didn't listen to the community and lost the trust from the customer, trust which they had to work very hard to get back. Now SE is push the boundaries again and trying to see how far that trust will go. First by charging real money for premium access to Eternal bond but also by re-re-re-releasing FFVII on PS4 while smugly pretending it was a big deal. Though jokingly, Sakaguchi-san said it best when commenting on FFXV and saying it's taking 9 years for a new FF to out. SE as a company needs to get better.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

...snip.... To be honest this whole wedding band debaucle is bleeding edge on what is acceptable...snip...
We are however expressing our concerns and looking for some transparancy from the development team who has gone radio silence on the topic from day 1.

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What you consider a debacle some consider a smart business move. If you are referring to people selling the plans, then SE corrected their mistake. If you want to call them stupid for the oversight I'll agree with you. Their decision to fix their mistake should give you an indication on where they stand, dumb and stupid or not.

Their lack of response should be enough for you to decide where you think they stand. They haven't answered most of these "concerned posts". This alone should be enough for you to decide if their stance on the subject is acceptable to you. Not to mention their public statement at the fan fest which is "no pay to win". And again, their actions regarding people selling the eternal bonding plans reinforce this.

They've painted a clear picture, written it on the wall, and even addressed the masses through a few statements and actions.

It's time to decide and move on.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

...the development team who has gone radio silence on the topic from day 1.

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Probably because decisions related to revenue are outside of their control. I'm guessing (I did say guessing) that they are very uncomfortable with the situation and the bitter division it is creating within the community.

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Originally Posted by Stihllodeing

It's time to decide and move on.

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I'm sorry but I'll be the one to say when I decide to leave the game I don't need you telling me when I need to make my choice thank you very much.

Currently, yes I think it's worth the money for subscription.
However I play mostly to collect vanity, and if they would add less crafted vanity and more cash shop vanity in future patches, I'm out.

Some people like to raid, and some people prefer the vanity part. And I think it's unfair that the people who plays like me have to pay more to get what we want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqNuS03k6gI

With all respect, but I'm going to speak a little about your worries with the direction the cash shop is getting and so....

I know here a lot of people, (surprisingly) thinks this all is normal and we players should empty our wallets, but, uh, okay...

I just noticed something important aside the P2W(OR however you want to call the fact people can obtain advantages in-game thanks to their real money) and is the change of... Hm... Let's say, their way to develop?:

- Before we had it so crafters were useful only for vanity stuff. They were the ones in previous patches that took everything that was needed for making certain recipes etc and craft-sell the vanity stuff... From now on, since cash shop came, that function of the crafters have been almost vanquished, now vanity stuff is no more concerning crafting classes, at least not at all, now cash shop is...

So... What decided SE to do now that crafters were loosing their main function? Give them back more vanity stuff and remove it from cash shop? No, give them some utility in the new relic quest, because that was the only way to give crafters utility without damaging the integrity of the cash shop....

(Note, important note: This is only the point of view of a poor noob, only my perception, I'm not saying it is exactly like that. The lack of answers for developers is what make me do my own points of view until we obtain some official responses regarding this.)

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

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umm... this was a QoL patch, not a major update. 2.40 was the major update and there was a lot of vanity items added for crafters to make and not a single one of them was removed nor were any vanity armours placed on the Mog Station.

Edit- Slightly different and dyable wedding dress / suit as part of the bonuses for paying extra for wedding. the Normal dress is still there only difference is dyable and a small amount of frills

Umm no, I'd rather buy a full outfit for $5 from the CS, than bust my ass to make 12mil for a full outfit in game, because this community think it's fine to over price Level1 vanity gear. That's why all 3 wedding options are on the CS, including the free one. They knew players would over price these items if they were made by crafters. The way I see it, they dealt with a problem before it started.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Stop with the hyperbole

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"The cash shop is stifling development."

Ok.

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

- Before we had it so crafters were useful only for vanity stuff. They were the ones in previous patches that took everything that was needed for making certain recipes etc and craft-sell the vanity stuff... From now on, since cash shop came, that function of the crafters have been almost vanquished, now vanity stuff is no more concerning crafting classes, at least not at all, now cash shop is...

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Seems you ignored the gear people used for vanity this patch that people also used when overmelded. You also seem to have forgotten that crafting is important to this new relic step.

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So... What decided SE to do now that crafters were loosing their main function?

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Since when did crafters become unable to craft things? I can craft plenty of stuff without the cash shop interfering o.O Their main function was not vanity nor even "useful" gear, their main function was crafting in general while Dungeons/Raid dropped the better option.

If you want to accuse me of hyperbole find something that actually states my shouting to the treetops doom and gloom. I'm simple stating my concern where you are sitting here dismissing anyone with a opinion different than your.

I respect the peoples opinion that are for the cash shop, I get it they would rather pay than work for certain content or truly believe that the developers actually need the money to make this content. It doesn't stop me from stating my opinion though.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

or truly believe that the developers actually need the money to make this content.

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Because the development team, localization team, community team etc all work for FREE! Right? Right?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I get it they would rather pay than work for certain content

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Excues me, are we making assumptions now? Where did anyone say they wouldn't work for anything in game????? That is basically a passive, aggressive comment.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

If you want to accuse me of hyperbole find something that actually states my shouting to the treetops doom and gloom.

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You're also making a heavy assumption. Refuse to work for what? Isn't the typical mantra: "RNG isn't work, it isn't a challenge, it's a time sink?" What you meant to say, some people would choose to use the cash shop because it's their choice to. Much like there's plenty who choose to go after in-game rewards and never touch the cash shop.

'Unless you can show internal documents from Square Enix's dev office, it's pretty hard to state development has been stifled. I mean, you could buy extra retainers and fantasias long before they even introduced a cash shop and we still had updates just fine.

Fyi, the term stifling is usually akin with doom and gloom. Look it up sometime.

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

- Before we had it so crafters were useful only for vanity stuff. They were the ones in previous patches that took everything that was needed for making certain recipes etc and craft-sell the vanity stuff... From now on, since cash shop came, that function of the crafters have been almost vanquished, now vanity stuff is no more concerning crafting classes, at least not at all, now cash shop is...

So... What decided SE to do now that crafters were loosing their main function? Give them back more vanity stuff and remove it from cash shop? No, give them some utility in the new relic quest, because that was the only way to give crafters utility without damaging the integrity of the cash shop....

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Uh... what? So because 3 dyes and some minions went into the cash shop, crafters are all of a sudden useless? I don't follow. Crafters certainly make a lot more than just vanity items, in any case. Good luck getting a relic without crafters. A lot of the higher level stuff that was just introduced is actually really good when it's overmelded as well. I don't see how anyone can possibly say that "the function of the crafters have almost been vanquished".

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

Because the development team, localization team, community team etc all work for FREE! Right? Right?

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15/month x 2,000,000/subs x 12/months = 360,000,000 yearly. Yea, I think they are getting well paid for their work without a cash shop.

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Originally Posted by Venos

Umm no, I'd rather buy a full outfit for $5 from the CS, than bust my ass to make 12mil for a full outfit in game, because this community think it's fine to over price Level1 vanity gear. That's why all 3 wedding options are on the CS, including the free one. They knew players would over price these items if they were made by crafts. The way I see it, they dealt with a problem before it started.

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These are the statements that annoy me the most. You have no idea how much of a time sink crafting is yet you want difficult items for nothing. Do you know how much it time and cost it takes to get mats for the night gown? If you don't like blame SE, not the crafters.

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Originally Posted by Venos

Where did anyone say they wouldn't work for anything in game?

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Where did I say you wouldn't work for anything. I merely pointed out your willing to pay above and beyond your subscription for other things, nothing wrong with it, it's just not something I find to be condusive to the developement cycle.

As for you previous statement you would rather pay $5.00 than buy a 12m outfit I have a fun fact if you would like me to share it with you.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Fyi, the term stifling is usually akin with doom and gloom. Look it up sometime.

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I do believe they are stifling development because as in my original post, everything that comes into the game now seems to go through the marketing team to see what content can be siphoned off for the cash shop. Do I think it's the developers themselves who want to do this? I doubt it but the higher ups want the extra cash on the bottom line. Personally I would bet that the community divide on this on the forums is something he doesn't want to see. No game developer wants to put his content behind a paywall.

I don't need internal SE documentation to make assumptions (It's all that they are just like anything you spout as well) But without documentation it's pretty hard for you to state that they haven't allready cut content from the game (Pro tip they have) with the intention of moving it into the cash shop.

My concern isn't that the game will fail hard because it has a cash shop, hell it will probably flourish for a few years if it went free to play (or for all time). My concern is that the so far the pipeline we have been seeing is that content that was normally developed into the main game experience is being pushed off to rake in extra cash from consumers (Dyes, mounts, weddings) were all advertised long before the cash shop even became something more than server transfers, retainers, and fantasia potions.

My concern is that the development team is in many ways shackled into what content they are allowed to introduce into the game and what gets regulated to the cash shop, it's a perfectly valid concern even if you support the cash shop. They are many variations of that support and they are all as valid as they people who would rather it not exist at all. I think all of us however deserve some transparancy from the developers to know what is in store for the cash shop in the future.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

15/month x 2,000,000/subs x 12/months = 360,000,000 yearly. Yea, I think they are getting well paid for their work without a cash shop.

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that's gross, not net. Factor in the cost of other projects being developed by SE, building costs, power costs for servers, business taxes, international fund conversion, etc etc.

Is the company making money? Yes. But are they making 360 million net profit a year just from FFXIV? Not on your life. If extra funds from stuff on the mogstation goes to getting more talent for XIV and other SE titles and vise versa I have no issues with it.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

that's gross, not net. Factor in the cost of other projects being developed by SE, building costs, power costs for servers, business taxes, international fund conversion, etc etc.

Is the company making money? Yes. But are they making 360 million net profit a year just from FFXIV? Not on your life. If extra funds from stuff on the mogstation goes to getting more talent for XIV and other SE titles and vise versa I have no issues with it.

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Money is money no matter where its going or how it's spent. Any profit made by SE goes back to SE to be spent on whatever projects and programs they wish to develop. Your right that it's income vs expenditure but it is true that FFXIV has made SE profitable again for 2014. Also I'm not against the cash shop as a method to sell services or unique items that aren't related to a games feature. If SE wants to sell a Morbol mount for 15, they can go nuts. It's only when its premium access to game content where I draw the line.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Money is money no matter where its going or how it's spent. Any profit made by SE goes back to SE to be spent on whatever projects and programs they wish to develop. Your right that it's income vs expenditure but it is true that FFXIV has made SE profitable again for 2014. Also I'm not against the cash shop as a method to sell services or unique items that aren't related to a games feature. If SE wants to sell a Morbol mount for 15, they can go nuts. It's only when its premium access to game content where I draw the line.

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No content access has been restricted to Mog station, unless you count color options for content that's freely available in game.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

No content access has been restricted to Mog station, unless you count color options for content that's freely available in game.

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This points out an interesting trend; it used to be "unless you count unique mounts and minions as content." Now, it seems we've progressed to "unless you count unique color options as content." I'm mildly curious if/how this may change in the future.

Simply pointing out an observation.

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Originally Posted by ChibiChan_Hyperion

Simply pointing out an observation.

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It's the same thing - the latest addition to the mog station included colors, which is the latest thing that upset people. Prior to that it was the mounts and minions. SE didn't directly add any other mount. Since in all actuality, the same options are available in game, just not the 'metallic' version. So in reality, if you count colors as content, then yeah. That random rock you run by is technically content too, but realistically, most people consider content as actual things you're doing, like raids/dungeons/primals.

Which is why 99% of the time when you read a review/watch a review you'll see people say: "X hours of gameplay and content"..chances are they're not talking about things like colors, pebbles and pieces of armor specifically.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

when you read a review/watch a review you'll see people say: "X hours of gameplay and content"..chances are they're not talking about things like colors, pebbles and pieces of armor specifically.

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Yeah not specifically but as a whole they entirely do...

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

No content access has been restricted to Mog station, unless you count color options for content that's freely available in game.

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Let me elaborate then on how I consider content access.

Scions Minion = Not related to one specific piece of a games feature like Hunts, Dungeon, Binding Coil, Crystal Tower, Housing, etc...
Gold/Platnium Plan = Specifically related to enhance a players experience for the Eternal Bonding content.

This is what I mean when I say premium access to a specific piece of content. You get standard access to content but to get the full rewards and experience of the feature it requires cash payment.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Please list other P2P MMOs other than WoW that has the same sort of cash shop ARR does because I'm curious too.

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You should start with list of *successfull* P2P MMO in last five years to understand why this type of cashshop are only in those two games. As there was no other mass-market P2P MMO that can be considered successfull (i.e. that have a big stable population and could cover it's costs) an recent times.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I do believe they are stifling development because as in my original post, everything that comes into the game now seems to go through the marketing team to see what content can be siphoned off for the cash shop.

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But we are still getting core content for free, so impact is much lesser than stated. Yes, some options were added on top of free content but the core experience remains unaffected and free.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Do I think it's the developers themselves who want to do this? I doubt it but the higher ups want the extra cash on the bottom line. Personally I would bet that the community divide on this on the forums is something he doesn't want to see. No game developer wants to put his content behind a paywall.

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Everyone loves money, and developers are no exception to this.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Scions Minion = Not related to one specific piece of a games feature like Hunts, Dungeon, Binding Coil, Crystal Tower, Housing, etc...
Gold/Platnium Plan = Specifically related to enhance a players experience for the Eternal Bonding content.

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It doesn't really enhance experience as you don't get bigger wedding or anything. Paid options are very similar to free ones and if you want to just marry and have a nice ceremony - free one is as good as paid ones.
And the only real difference (besides mount and minion gifts after ceremony ends) is for people who thinks that "cost more money = better"

The one thing that I always think about is that this cash shop content would have possibly made it's way into the game and could have made some content have more lasting goals instead of the gear grind.

New hairstyles? Why not buy them for Allied seals/Mythology/Poetics/Getting top tier with certain beast-tribes, achievment rewards (Tank hairstyle go!) They can still sell these things on the shop but give other people things to shoot for. I just don't get why we want them to lock this behind a paywall, optional is fine but forcing players to cough up for vanity items in a game we allready pay for with no alternatives is just a waste in my opinion (Maybe not to SE's wallet).

Long as we have the subscription, I'm never going to touch the cash shop.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Long as we have the subscription, I'm never going to touch the cash shop.

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As long as we have subscription, there shouldn't be a cash shop.

http://s.mlkshk-cdn.com/r/NPY4

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The one thing that I always think about is that this cash shop content would have possibly made it's way into the game

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As said - If this were the case it would have been introduced. Odin's horse for example, he been in the game for a year - He has his own loot trade system in the game for a year. It would have been added to Odin Mantles if they had any intention on introducing it before they made the cash shop.

Where would the minions they sell come from? There's no more Scion quests as their storyline merged into Binding Coil after the main 2.0 and 2.1 scenario was done, as 2.2-2.4 rarely dealt with them but rather the company they setup.

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New hairstyles?

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Is 99% of the time added automatically to the CC and 1% of the time is quest related content, e.g Lightning/Snow's hairstyle.

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Originally Posted by Quesse

As long as we have subscription, there shouldn't be a cash shop.

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Read the terms. Also tell Blizzard this. Tell any company this as well:

"Hey (company), players are willing to buy stuff from a cash shop..but don't do it! Don't make money because that's bad!"

If players weren't willing to buy DLC, half finished games ("early access") and use a cash shop, it would have died out 7 years ago.

Think about that.

How much do you think it costs in $$$ to create a new dungeon? A new raid or trial? How about a new piece of gear? You need new art, models, sounds, code, play testing, and localization into four languages. All this put together is costly. And it's basically given to us free. Games today cost a lot to make. Several hundred million $$$ for an A-List game.

I like to look at something like the cash shop as something that supports the development of the game, and the money spent on those items goes to content that everyone can use (dungeons, raids, gear, etc). To me, that's how things work. The idea that the cash shop hurts development is ridiculous IMO.

Just read Blizzard is considering allowing players to sell game time purchased from cash shop for gold similar to EVE. Is this another "standard" you would like to see added to the game?

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Originally Posted by Laraul

How much do you think it costs in $$$ to create a new dungeon? A new raid or trial?

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A hell of alot less than our subscriptions pay. Never understood this situation where people think that without the suplimentary income from a cash shop, the game is doing well enough that they are making much more money than the operating costs of the servers and the team creating content.

Unless they give us a breakdown of where the cash shop money is going (It's being invested into Square Enix's bottom line to offset other poorly preforming products, it's unlikely to say they keep the cash for sole use in XIV) The funds are not going directly into content development for the game. If it was then that's great! But it's not likely the story. If FFXIV was floundering financially they might be using the cash to suplement development costs but it's doing plenty well to not need to worry about that.

I just wish everything in the cash shop was sellable for gil so some other sucker could subsidize me.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

A hell of alot less than our subscriptions pay. Never understood this situation where people think that without the suplimentary income from a cash shop, the game is doing well enough that they are making much more money than the operating costs of the servers and the team creating content.

Unless they give us a breakdown of where the cash shop money is going (It's being invested into Square Enix's bottom line to offset other poorly preforming products, it's unlikely to say they keep the cash for sole use in XIV) The funds are not going directly into content development for the game. If it was then that's great! But it's not likely the story. If FFXIV was floundering financially they might be using the cash to suplement development costs but it's doing plenty well to not need to worry about that.

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Every single recently released SE game has dlc its how games work now they want supplemental income from them to make more money because they are a business.