How is SMN overall dps?

Ahh gotcha thanks
Wondered why the odd few used Ifrit in say ST

I main SMN and I can tell you that Ifrit is hands down higher dps in most situations. When I am able to use Ifrit, I see 20+ DPS increase almost every time. The MP spent is slightly higher for ifrit, since you have to cast your DoT's more often, but it can be made up for by not using Ruin2 all the time, which is the most common mistake that SMN's make

Ifrit loses its usefulness when/if:
He will take significant amounts of aoe damage
His travel time will be high
more AoE damage is needed from the SMN

Fights that I love to use ifrit in are T10, Shiva Ex, Ramuh Ex, most of ST (except the knockback AoE guys), nearly all dungeons.
The only time I pull out Garuda is when I will need increased AoE damage (cause Contagion+Bane = love) or if I need to have my pet in a safer place.

It is worth noting that Ifrit does require more micro as far as positioning, but good SMN's can maneuver him without any DPS loss since you can use pet action commands while casting or waiting for the GCD

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

SNIP

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Ifrit is good at times, but if you are lining your skills up the benefit contagion brings outweighs him situations where extra DOT time is allowed.
-Considering the MP you save by using contagion there is no reason not to use her unless it is trash you are dealing with, then his slightly higher potencies help.

Are you fully taking advantage of contagion ?
-PPPs
-Xpot
-RS
-All target DOTs

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

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Yes, I started my SMN career by using Garuda all of the time. Like you, I once believed that Garuda was higher dps output because of those same factors. 15s longer for a raging strikes buffed set of DoT's! Sure!! But you have to remember that contagion is on a 1 minute CD, which means it can only ever apply to about 1/3 of the DoT attacks you use anyways. Throughout all the rest of that time, the 30+ dps that ifrit puts out in just his auto attacks outweighs the contagion benefits by quite a bit.

Try it one day. Sit down with your smn at a target dummy and try it out. If you find something different let me know. Because all of the testing I have done shows ifrit to be higher dps in fights where his safety is not as big of an issue.

Of course, if you have to heal him all the time........ then go with garuda

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Ifrit is good at times, but if you are lining your skills up the benefit contagion brings outweighs him situations where extra DOT time is allowed.
-Considering the MP you save by using contagion there is no reason not to use her unless it is trash you are dealing with, then his slightly higher potencies help.

Are you fully taking advantage of contagion ?
-PPPs
-Xpot
-RS
-All target DOTs

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Contagion by itself essentially just amounts to casting 3 more Ruins each minute, and if coupled with Miasma 2, actually does not save MP. You should be using less Ruin IIs with Ifrit, so consumption is more even than it seems.

Contagion + Buffs is a considerable damage increase without a doubt, but how often are you getting that boost? If a fight is 9 minutes long, that's twice you'll get to use Raging + X-Pot + PPP + Contagion and once without the X-Pot. That's 45s of extra damage in a 9 minute fight. Using Ifrit instead of Garuda is 9 minutes of extra damage in a 9 minute fight.

Unlike Garuda, however, Ifrit is not safe for every fight. Any encounter where the boss has a knockback or circle AOE that would lower its uptime or potentially kill it, it would be better to use Garuda. Also, fights where the pet needs to be at a specific location to help split damage. For example, I use Ifrit on T10-13 (Though I use Garuda on the physical resist trash in T11 >.>), but I wouldn't use it on T7 or T9.

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Originally Posted by ShinryuReishiki

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I am glad to hear that you are getting to play your SMN in final coil. So many SMN's are getting denied FCoB entry at the moment that it is tough to remember a few groups still try and play them. My SMN has barely seen any play time in the coils yet (just one day when our BLM was out sick) since I also have a 50 DRG and it is just better 99% of the time, even though its gear is not as good.

I use Ifrit in all of FCOB now. It even works out well on T11 since my group also runs a BLM. Ifrit helps soak Repelling Cannons (since there's a lot of AOE heals going out I just set him and forget him) and it helps out on melee damage for the Sphere.

*** Even with Melee X 2 Bard and SMN I'd be interested in trying Ifrit on Sphere, SMN on Cube and Lvl 2 Mage LB on both the Sphere and Cube, LB2 takes less time to cast than for the Modules to combine and with SMN away from the party there's no risk of clipping people with Thunder. That way you can finish them much earlier and blast away the Egg.

T10 - just does better damage and due to gear increases Contagion is much less effective. Can get dicey if he eats too much Crackle or Tail swipe, so watch sicking him on adds while they are getting into position. (plz SE increase the range of Flaming Crush wtf)

T12 - Just better with so much up time of attacking Phoenix. Bennu Phase sucks when Ifrit gets clipped by a Flames of Rebirth between Bennu kills because he'll run off and do 0 damage to a shielded Phoenix for however long it takes you to figure out where he is. So a bit of micro management here. (not using Contagion here gives you more control of your dots so that Bennu's don't die when they shouldn't)

T13 - pretty much for all the same reasons.

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I prefer to start with Garuda though for her amazing opener.

Start with Shadow Flare in place. RS, INT POT, B2+M+B, Fester, PPP, M2 + Contagion, SC Ifrit, Energy Drain, Fester, Aetherflow. (Ruin II's for weaving) Use Rouse + Spur + Enkindle with Ifrit.

- I use Energy Drain on the opener with all party buffs up (Trick attack, Foes, etc whatever your pt comp is) because it lets you get Aetherflow used up faster and in long fights you are going to be using at least 1 Energy Drain, so why not use it when it's going to be very strong at the start.

- When using Ifrit you don't have to worry about saving RS for when Contagion is up, but it is recommended to use it prior to applying Bio that way you can cast a second Bio while it is still active.

- I like that you have more freedom with Ifrit to not have to base your rotation around Contagion.

OK I will do this properly when I get home, but just some working out.

But Garuda should contribute 170 more potency than Ifrit.

There are little things which can make a difference:
-foe req buffs garuda and her contagion bonus
-Wars buff ifrit very slightly along with DRGs I think.

But like I said before, if the fight is short or your buffed DOTs wont tick fully. Use ifrit as he does do more auto attack damage then garuda without a doubt, but when DOTs will tick fully Garuda is better.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

OK I will do this properly when I get home, but just some working out.

But Garuda should contribute 170 more potency than Ifrit.

There are little things which can make a difference:
-foe req buffs garuda and her contagion bonus
-Wars buff ifrit very slightly along with DRGs I think.

But like I said before, if the fight is short or your buffed DOTs wont tick fully. Use ifrit as he does do more auto attack damage then garuda without a doubt, but when DOTs will tick fully Garuda is better.

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I am interested to see your numbers. In every 4+ minute parse I have done against target dummies, Garuda never beats out Ifrit, regardless of contagion buff synergy. Ifrit's constant 20-30 dps increase over Garuda's autoattack wins out as long as the fights go longer than 2 minutes. Also remember that Spur and Rouse buff Ifrit by about 20% more than they buff Garuda due to ifrit's naturally higher dps output, as well as the fact that garuda has to stop attacking to use Contagion, so she loses one ranged attack from that

Storm's Eye + Dragon Kick increase Ifrit's damage by the same amount as Foe Requiem would increase Garuda's, but Foe Requiem will have less uptime than the other debuffs due to MP dependency versus being part of a rotation. Even without the blunt debuff, which is the more significant of the two, I get more out of Ifrit.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I use Ifrit in all of FCOB now.

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I'm actually interested in trying this. I agree it kind of sucks having manage using things like raging strikes, X-pots, and poison pots with contagion. I do have a couple concerns. I'm a very avid aerial slash user. In t10 I use it during the adds phase to get a little extra DPS. Flaming crush range is 3y which is absolutely tiny. I don't even know if it would hit both adds when they're together. For T11 I'm the only caster. We have our BRD DoT up my add, but with a very skilled MNK and NIN in my group I think I would struggle to get down my add in a timely manner as the cube would take reduced damage from ifrit. For T11 I use aerial slash on black fires, and I use it during the bennu phase. Flaming crush probably wouldn't hit all the bennus. Suggestions?

So this is just me running some quick and dirty numbers. Using a 3 minute total time (since this is the CD of Raging Strikes) I was able to estimate the additional potency gained by Each pet.

For Ifrit:
in 3 minutes, Ifrit attacks 60 times for 120 potency each
Ifrit = 120*60 = 7200 potency

Garuda:
Garuda hits 19 times/min for 100 pot each (1 att/min is lost to contagion)
Garuda = 100*19*3 = 5700
Garuda also gets additional DPS for Contagion. 15 seconds of 20% increased DPS for DoT's = 112.5 potency per 3 minutes (350*(15/30)*.2)+(300*(15/24)*.2)+(240*(15/18)*.2) = 112.5. This number would be higher factoring in PPP and int pots, but only marginally. We will round up to 150 for estimation purposes.

Lastly, caster gets 3 extra ruins/min from Contagion, so 80*3*3 = 720 potency
All together Garuda = 5700+150+720 = 6570 potency

This is roughly 600 potency less than ifrit in 3 minutes. And that is without factoring enkindle, spur, and rouse which all help ifrit more than garuda.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

Flaming crush range is 3y which is absolutely tiny. I don't even know if it would hit both adds when they're together. For T11 I'm the only caster. We have our BRD DoT up my add, but with a very skilled MNK and NIN in my group I think I would struggle to get down my add in a timely manner as the cube would take reduced damage from ifrit. Suggestions?

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For T11, if you are the only magic user, then you probably need to use Garuda so that you can get the cube down in a timely manner. As for AoE, Garuda is usually stronger in AoE situations because Contagion+Bane is an extremely effective AoE DPS tool. Ifrits AoE damage is ok, but the short range on flaming crush leaves some to be desired.

Ifrits Enkindle hits harder than Garudas, but only by a measly 50 potency, and that's only if the enemies are alive for 15 seconds after the attack. So ya, if you are needing to provide higher AoE DPS, go garuda, but ifrit is the king for ST dps

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I'm actually interested in trying this. I agree it kind of sucks having manage using things like raging strikes, X-pots, and poison pots with contagion. I do have a couple concerns. I'm a very avid aerial slash user. In t10 I use it during the adds phase to get a little extra DPS. Flaming crush range is 3y which is absolutely tiny. I don't even know if it would hit both adds when they're together. For T11 I'm the only caster. We have our BRD DoT up my add, but with a very skilled MNK and NIN in my group I think I would struggle to get down my add in a timely manner as the cube would take reduced damage from ifrit. For T11 I use aerial slash on black fires, and I use it during the bennu phase. Flaming crush probably wouldn't hit all the bennus. Suggestions?

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In T10 the Brother/Sister are usually on top of each other when tanked together, so Flaming Crush will hit both. (you have to wait till they are in pos though)

T11 as SMN and the only caster you would probably have to use Garuda (placed in the center attacking the Cube) or like you said you will have issues killing the Cube in time.
That's why I would highly recommend trying to LVL 2 Caster LB both the Cube and Sphere to finish them off. (if using Ifrit on the Sphere)
The other option is to try it without Garuda but to stock pile a full set of Aetherflow for the add phase. Using up the set of Aether prior to the phase change will only push the phase slightly faster, but having 6 Aether Stacks to use right at the start of the add phase (used with Quelling or your tank will hate you) will burn that add down pretty fast, especially since you will have Raging Strikes up by then.
Either way I would only recommend using Ifrit on the Sphere if you chose to use it for T11.

T12 - yeah I was using Aerial Slash on Black fires as well, but it wasn't needed. As the only caster in your Group, I'd recommend having the SCH just Bane to the black fires and that will kill them, and the Bard can finish off any stragglers. That way you can focus purely on having your Dots ready to bane onto the Bennu, and doing as much single target DPS as you can.

(The other thing I'm playing with is Bio + M2 on the Bennu, into Ruin spam) The reason for this is because you can't time you dots exactly when a Bennu comes out without clipping them too soon, thus wasted resources. So without a guarantee that your Bane will cause 300 Potency or greater to the Bennu, resource wise it may be best to Bio and Miasma II, which are both almost guaranteed to run their duration. This leaves an additional 300 potency to drop on Phoenix + the 70 Potency from M2 on Phoenix. So essentially if your Bane will not do 370 Potency to the Bennu before it dies (12<seconds on all dots prior to Baning) then you will want to do the above. )

Since you will probably be on Bennu duty with your Bard (2X Melee should stay on the boss) You can probably get away with your Bard just tossing both their Dots on the Bennu while you Ruin it once it's headed to it's die area. (otherwise you risk an interrupted cast) This gives both your dots and the bards dots time to take a chunk off the bennu and gives you time to reapply any dots on the boss that may be coming off and/or to continue casting Ruin on the Boss. (Virus the Bennu whenever possible)

(In most cases Flaming Crush will hit the Phase 1 and 2 Bennus if Phoenix is Tanked in the center, which it should be to accommodate a SMN)

For the Bennu Phase, Aerial Slash isn't a huge gain, and yeah, Flaming Crush probably wont hit all the Bennus. But your bread and butter on that is Bane anyways.
Dot # 1 Bennu - Bane to the rest - Kill # 1 -> Move - Dot the Big Bennu -> Bane to the rest (rinse and repeat till all dead) - my groups Bard usually uses Ballad for this part so that the WHM can main heal while the SCH DPS's.
I only use Fester on a Big Bennu as long as I'll have a AF stack to spare.

So, i played this game since D1, so that would be 1 year + few months, and i played summoner for almost 1 year. Everyone, and i repeat EVERYONE said that Garuda was better, and so i always used Garuda. And now, today, i read that ifrit is "much better", like...what the fuck?

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Originally Posted by Riyos

So, i played this game since D1, so that would be 1 year + few months, and i played summoner for almost 1 year. Everyone, and i repeat EVERYONE said that Garuda was better, and so i always used Garuda. And now, today, i read that ifrit is "much better", like...what the fuck?

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It is not so much that Ifrit is much better. Ifrit is better in some situations and Garuda is better in others. Ifrit is stronger in single target situations, and Garuda is better when you need magical damage from your pet or there is a lot of AoE.

Also, Ifrit was buffed at some point in the last 6 months. I can't remember the exact patch, but prior to that, Garuda was better almost all of the time I believe.

All this Ifrit talk as got me wondering about using the thing. I'm still not sold on it for final coil though.

I've cleared 10 11 and done 12 up to last phase as Summoner
t10 is a nightmare for summoner. Constant DPS against multiple targets that can't be stacked and a lot of AoE that doesn't ignore the pet. I do this fight as a black mage now, too much of a headache.
t11 is actually pretty nice for Summoner. A movement heavy fight and mechanics that more or less don't hit the pet. I used to do add phase by switching to Ifrit but I find keeping Garuda out is easy enough (even on the egg node) and saves me MP and a swiftcast down the line.
t12 isn't too bad as a Summoner either, but I can't see Ifrit being too good here since it would have to chase down bennus during phase 1 and 2 where Garuda can simply be set in the middle of the room and hit everything with impunity.

T10, Spike Flail doesn't hit pets so it can always be safely behind. It will get hit by Crackle Hiss after charge, but this won't kill it; it will be fine before the next charge even without Sustain. For adds, just stick it on whatever is the last in kill priority to minimize movement.

T11, can just sit on the boss the entire time which is the best situation for Ifrit. Stick it on the sphere to help soak damage. Garuda is better if single caster, though.

T12, again, just leave it on the boss the entire time. No reason to have it chasing down Bennus. In Bennu phase, I just make sure it's staying in the clump of birds.

For what it's worth, world first T11 and world second T12 were with Ifrit-egi.

You wont want Ifrit chasing down Bennus. You want him on Phoenix, where the Blunt/Slashing debuffs are.

Even swapping to Bennus with Garuda I found that on occasion she would simply stop attacking. I believe it's due to getting hit by a White Fire while targeting another mob, the AI won't have her switch to Phoenix after the Bennu dies, because she is now looking for the thing that hit her, which doesn't exist. So then you have to Heel + Obey back on Phoenix or else there goes 30% of your DPS staring into space.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

You wont want Ifrit chasing down Bennus. You want him on Phoenix, where the Blunt/Slashing debuffs are.

Even swapping to Bennus with Garuda I found that on occasion she would simply stop attacking. I believe it's due to getting hit by a White Fire while targeting another mob, the AI won't have her switch to Phoenix after the Bennu dies, because she is now looking for the thing that hit her, which doesn't exist. So then you have to Heel + Obey back on Phoenix or else there goes 30% of your DPS staring into space.

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Stupid bird-woman.

Do you use that ifrits radiant shield in any case? I see it kinda useless special skill. Should i use it during earth shakers or something?

Would be nice 2 see numbers how much difference it is between garuda and ifrit in t13 with same gear.

Yes garuda trumps ifrit after 5 mins, and then again every 5 mins she does better.

Raw damage wise ifrit should deliver 12000 potency in a 5 min period while garuda is only 10000 assuming they both have a 100% uprate on target (which for ifrit if the target moves is unlikely, the reason she is more favorable because contagion and that is it and this only makes a noticeable difference if you are buffing your DOTs and not messing up your rotation.

This highlights an issue with SMN, even when playing perfectly and clipping in the right times and lining up buffs, the dps increase isnt that great.

Yes garuda trumps ifrit after 5 mins, and then again every 5 mins she does better.

Raw damage wise ifrit should deliver 12000 potency in a 5 min period while garuda is only 10000 assuming they both have a 100% uprate on target (which for ifrit if the target moves is unlikely, the reason she is more favorable because contagion and that is it and this only makes a noticeable difference if you are buffing your DOTs and not messing up your rotation.

This highlights an issue with SMN, even when playing perfectly and clipping in the right times and lining up buffs, the dps increase isnt that great.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

I am interested to see your numbers. In every 4+ minute parse I have done against target dummies, Garuda never beats out Ifrit, regardless of contagion buff synergy. Ifrit's constant 20-30 dps increase over Garuda's autoattack wins out as long as the fights go longer than 2 minutes. Also remember that Spur and Rouse buff Ifrit by about 20% more than they buff Garuda due to ifrit's naturally higher dps output, as well as the fact that garuda has to stop attacking to use Contagion, so she loses one ranged attack from that

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Absolutely, when I get a chance I will post some numbers, and working out behind it, and we can discuss. Would be great to settle this once and for all for everyone on here. Either way the dps increase either way is slight :(

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Do you use that ifrits radiant shield in any case? I see it kinda useless special skill. Should i use it during earth shakers or something?

Would be nice 2 see numbers how much difference it is between garuda and ifrit in t13 with same gear.

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Sure, in fights like titan when he is being pushed through phases its up to you.
-Landslide is physical
-Levi tailwhips physical
-Wicked wheels
The issue where things hit physical they are usually so strong pets get hit hard and could end up killing the pet and wasting mana.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Do you use that ifrits radiant shield in any case? I see it kinda useless special skill. Should i use it during earth shakers or something?

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Normally yes, if you're using Ifrit, any physical attacks done to ifrit would cause ifrit to attack back. However, most of the attacks, specificially AOE attacks, in FCOB don't actually damage the pet. In the case of Earthshakers, the AOE will not damage the pet at all. You can easily test this out by putting Garuda, Ifrit, Eos, or Selene in the Line of Sight of Earthshakers.

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Originally Posted by Autobalance

Normally yes, if you're using Ifrit, any physical attacks done to ifrit would cause ifrit to attack back. However, most of the attacks, specificially AOE attacks, in FCOB don't actually damage the pet. In the case of Earthshakers, the AOE will not damage the pet at all. You can easily test this out by putting Garuda, Ifrit, Eos, or Selene in the Line of Sight of Earthshakers.

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Are you sure? I thought if it is similiar as lunar dynamo in t9 but have not test it. That radiant shield would have lot more utility if it would be magical damage rather than physical. Even tail swipe is not doing any damage against pet t10.

One thing I'm curious about Ifrit as well is what his AA damage is based off. I suspect it's X potency every 2.5s and doesn't change due to SMN weapon delay and AA value.

Then you can get Ifrit's full potency/time for AA Damage

I don't thing comparing Garuda's and Ifrit's potencies directly is a good idea since Ifrit AA + BS is a higher potency, but due to enemies having lower MDEF Garuda's single Wind Blade does higher damage/potency.

Example
Ifrit - 100 Potency @ 2.5s + 120 Potency @ 3s
Garuda - 100 Potency @ 3s

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Do you use that ifrits radiant shield in any case? I see it kinda useless special skill. Should i use it during earth shakers or something?

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Only time I use it in Final Coil is for the Pain's tail swipes.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Would be nice 2 see numbers how much difference it is between garuda and ifrit in t13 with same gear.

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It's going to be difficult without forcing the entire raid to use the same gear, as the faster the adds die the worse your DPS will be. The only comparison I have is that during progression, we would always fall just short of skipping the third Flatten in the first phase. Once I switched to Ifrit, we never saw that third Flatten.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Yes garuda trumps ifrit after 5 mins, and then again every 5 mins she does better.

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I think it's actually the short encounter that favors Garuda (Rather, Contagion). With Garuda, I'll hit higher numbers in that first minute because of Contagion, but as more time is spent without buffed DoTs, it falls short of Ifrit. We don't get to Contagion buffed DoTs often enough for Garuda to exceed Ifrit's higher natural damage.

I need to re-test in more current gear (Finally got my Dreadwyrm book this past Tuesday), but while my personal DPS was a little higher with Garuda, Ifrit's numbers were far better than Garuda's. These aren't the actual numbers; just trying to illustrate the point.

SMN: 310
Garuda: 120
Total: 430

SMN: 300
Ifrit: 150
Total: 450

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Raw damage wise ifrit should deliver 12000 potency in a 5 min period while garuda is only 10000 assuming

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Garuda can't Wind Blade and Contagion at the same time, so it would be more like 9500. That said, you can't just compare them by potency; physical attacks and magical attacks are handled differently in some way, and Ifrit has an auto attack in addition to Burning Strike. The only skill between the two you can easily compare is Enkindle because they're both magic attacks.

Comparing Garuda and Ifrit Damage

Garuda's Wind Blade does about 1/3 more damage than Ifrit's Burning Strike and Ifrit's AA does about half of his Burning Strike

Garuda's Potency is comparable to 160 Potency VS Ifrit 120 Potency for Burning Strike and 60 Potency for his AA

160 VS 180 (13%) - 164 VS 197 (25% Foes VS 80% Blunt/Slash - 10% Resistance is ~ 12% Damage increase)

So on average you should see Ifrit do 20% more Damage than Garuda or 13% more if you're not using a Monk/WarNIN

Pet DPS 100
Garuda 100
Ifrit 120

Pet DPS 200
Garuda 200
Ifrit 240


Edit:
I didn't factor in using Ifrit's other CD skills - which is greater DPS.
I didn't factor in Garuda's Contagion which is a DPS loss

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Originally Posted by Sunako

snip.

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Yeah, I believe pets are immune to most fcob attacks because of how aoe heavy fcob is. The Electric Field outside of the arena in t10, Tail Swipe, Nerve Cloud, Barofield, Earthshakers, all these aoe attacks don't damage the pets at all, which in turn means that none of these attacks will cause ifrit to attack back with radiant shield. I imagine if any of these aoe attacks did damage the pet, Summoners and Scholars would have a rough time keeping their pet alive (which would make the Summoner situation in fcob even worse).

Don't get me wrong though, there are aoe attacks like Crackle Hiss, Resonance, Revelation, Fire Breaths in t13, and Akh Morn that will damage and kill the pet but those types of aoe are meant for a tank to soak.

In the case of scob and t9, there are attacks like Lunar Dynamo that will damage the pet but just like in fcob, there are attacks that simply won't harm the pet as well such as Briars, Being in a tower in t8, etc.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

So on average you should see Ifrit do 20% more Damage than Garuda or 13% more if you're not using a Monk/WarNIN

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Should be around 20% even without the debuffs, though it's completely possible that my numbers have been skewed in some way. I just did some 10 minute tests with both pets, with different levels of micro on pet skills. That's not nearly enough data to give a concrete relationship, but it at least illustrates the general differences.

I'm 11 Int short of what I would have at full i130, so the numbers can still go up a little bit; debuffs also need to be considered, but it would be widening the gap rather than closing it. Wind Blade's 1s cast time seems to reduce the effectiveness of using Garuda-egi's other attacks on cooldown compared to doing the same with Ifrit-egi, though it still remains a DPS increase.

http://i.imgur.com/UTVddtU.png

Did you time Flaming Crush and Crimson Cyclone during rouse and spur or did you use those skill every time they went out from the cd?

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Originally Posted by ShinryuReishiki

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Thank you so much for the detailed information you posted. The one thing that this chart does not cover is the extra dps gained from buffed DoT's and the couple of extra ruins while Contagion is active (since you do not have to recast your DoT's as often. That dps is not an easy thing to measure, because there is no direct way to do it.

That DPS is also the reason that most people believe that Garuda Egi is better or equal to Ifrit Egi. In my research, I have found that the added dps from Contagion DoT and extra ruins adds about 8 -12 DPS to the overall total while Garuda is on the field.
Using your numbers:

Ifrit Egi 174.5 DPS
Garuda Egi 148.0 DPS

This correlates with my own findings that SMN does more dps (overall) with Ifrit Egi on the field. It is not a huge amount, but it is noticeable. Also note that the gap between Ifrit and Garuda shrinks when gear is less than i130, but it still maintains the 15-20% rule

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Originally Posted by ShinryuReishiki

Should be around 20% even without the debuffs, though it's completely possible that my numbers have been skewed in some way. I just did some 10 minute tests with both pets, with different levels of micro on pet skills. That's not nearly enough data to give a concrete relationship, but it at least illustrates the general differences.

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No that's looks awesome. I didn't include using Contagion which looks like a significant DPS loss for Garuda and it looks like I didn't give enough weight to the potency of Ifrit's AA compared to Burning Strike. It looks more like a potency of 65, than the 60 I used.

Also, I didn't consider that using Ifrit's other CD skills would be a DPS gain as I thought they would delay the use of Burning Stikes too much.

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So using Ifrit with your gear level, what is your Total DPS on a Dummy Test?

I'm interested to see what % is pet damage in a practical test. So far, just doing quick comparisons for different iLvl gear sets, pet damage is increasing faster than SMN damage.

I think if SE kept the same ratio of SMN:Pet damage then SMN would be in a better position.

The ratio I'm looking at is 65:35 with Ifrit @ i70 and I believe we are creeping closer to a 60:45 ratio @ i130

So it looks like 367 SMN + Ifrit 165 = 532, instead of,
SMN 471 SMN + Ifrit 160 = 636

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If that's the case then Pet gear scaling is too high and SMN gear scaling is too low.

Was this due to QQing about Contagion being too powerful on Garuda, or to just bring more emphasis to Ifrit?

Pets scale off intelligence and weapon damage almost twice that of Summoner.

I actually finally tried out ifrit this week for t10 and t12. I'm not sure if I was just playing better but I had a pretty significant DPS increase. I ended t12 with my highest parse to date at 483. I will say that I did have to energy drain quite a few times to keep my MP up as my DoTs were falling off faster.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Pets scale off intelligence and weapon damage almost twice that of Summoner.

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Yeah, I think it's a terrible design that way because here is the scenario that we have.

i90 SMN 340 DPS
102 Pet - +35% each 20 ilvls - i130 Pet 186 DPS
238 SMN +25% each 20 ilvls - i130 SMN 372

Combined 558 DPS

i90 Monk 340 DPS
340 DPS - +35% each 20 ilvls - i130 Monk 620 DPS

So they started out the same, and then 40 iLvls later - SMN is 62 DPS lower

Then ~ 10 Gear sets later and Summoner pet, is doing almost the same amount of damage as the Summoner and Summoner is 1000 DPS lower.

Seems like using ifrit is around 20~ more singletarget dps over using garuda(against dummy and solo). Only thing that sucks using ifrit is that flaming crush does not have enough range if you do not put your ifrit inside the hitbox every time you wanna use it.

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Originally Posted by ShinryuReishiki

Should be around 20% even without the debuffs, though it's completely possible that my numbers have been skewed in some way. I just did some 10 minute tests with both pets, with different levels of micro on pet skills. That's not nearly enough data to give a concrete relationship, but it at least illustrates the general differences.

I'm 11 Int short of what I would have at full i130, so the numbers can still go up a little bit; debuffs also need to be considered, but it would be widening the gap rather than closing it. Wind Blade's 1s cast time seems to reduce the effectiveness of using Garuda-egi's other attacks on cooldown compared to doing the same with Ifrit-egi, though it still remains a DPS increase.

http://i.imgur.com/UTVddtU.png

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I assume this test was vs multiple dummies?
Doing more dps with Aoe skills + No dmg skills (Contagion/Radiant Shield) and Knockback/Stun seems not correct if not 2+ dummies.

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Originally Posted by mvenom

I assume this test was vs multiple dummies?
Doing more dps with Aoe skills + No dmg skills (Contagion/Radiant Shield) and Knockback/Stun seems not correct if not 2+ dummies.

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The reason why those skills are doing more damage because they are off globals(or smaller delay compared normal). For garuda it will burn little from the global but still not have that much delay as wind blade so those abilities are dps increase.

if you compare how many burning strikes there is with only one ability 197 uses and how many uses there is with with aoe + stun ability 185 + 19 + 15 = 219 ability uses total

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Originally Posted by Sunako

The reason why those skills are doing more damage because they are off globals(or smaller delay compared normal). For garuda it will burn little from the global but still not have that much delay as wind blade so those abilities are dps increase.

if you compare how many burning strikes there is with only one ability 197 uses and how many uses there is with with aoe + stun ability 185 + 19 + 15 = 219 ability uses total

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Hm alright, havent noticed that before, heh. Mostly used garuda on Obey because lolcontagion on 0 dot target on sic, but it seems like ifrit is way better (even more so when Mnk+War in pt, buffs both autoattack+burning strike vs Foe not up 100%).