Thanks for making Second Coil more accessible

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

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And any mmo that actually followed the model would have every player from them rushing to play it. Wildstar was just another "solo your way to 50 in a day following yellow ! marks"

The reason those MMOs last so long is every MMO since gets turned into hello kitty island adventure by kids who couldn't beat the 1st level of mario without cheat codes.


"stop attacking when the boss casts X or look away when you have this debuff" is not hard. If you care to argue that statement I'd love to see what you come up with.

I realize these mechanics may not be a problem for you. But you clearly believe they are hard enough to justify a nerf. The petrify nerf makes sense for pugs but the blighted, hornet, renaud, and landmines is wtflux. It literally just lets you totally ignore EVERY SINGLE MECHANIC. You can't tell me you feel that is how the fights should be

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

I realize these mechanics may not be a problem for you. But you clearly believe they are hard enough to justify a nerf. The petrify nerf makes sense for pugs but the blighted, hornet, renaud, and landmines is wtflux. It literally just lets you totally ignore EVERY SINGLE MECHANIC. You can't tell me you feel that is how the fights should be

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effectively I have no problem (besides lag on bouquet sometimes) for these mechanics. Yet, I have been in enough pugs to welcome them with joy. No more facewalling all night long on stupid shit.

Here's my verdict:

T6 - Good to see the instakill mechanics removed. Having that goddamn hornet follow you into Phase 3 because someone didn't remove honey was total BS. Or the instakill Blighted Bouquet. Or those stupid slugs.

T7 - Still a reasonable challenge. Instakill petrification was ABSOLUTE BS. The way it was, one accidental petrification on a tank or healer would end up costing the fight. Now it's just more of an annoyance and easily healed through

T8 - Still a challenge. I attempted this for the first time only yesterday because I wasn’t able to clear T5 in time to get into all the practice parties the elitists had when T8 originally came out and when they evaporated. I was able to get Avatar within 1%. So close, yet so far. But it’s great to finally get some practice which is apparently too much for some people on this forum.

What practice? You dont need to practice t6-8 anymore. If anything the game just removed ways for you to get ready for t9 in both skill and mental aspects. The game just dug your prospect of ever doing content while it is fresh into the graves and you cheered. I guess some people just have no drive and enjoys being in the circle of echo

Players are bad because they don't have to deal with mechanics that others dealt with? Ok. Content is nerfed and I think it is BS because I want it to be hard, even though I am in Final Coil and Second Coil is no longer relevant to me! Ok... Why are you complaining that it is now easier to get gear? I feel people like to whine merely to do so, and when they are reaping the benefits in game they are jumping with joy at how much easier, and quicker it is to get gear for their alternative jobs...

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

At which point we'll have Heavensward and an extra 10 levels, nevermind a likely massive equivalent item level increase, and people won't even give a damn about Second Coil anymore.

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That's funny. They'll still complain. They're still complaining about nerfs to T1-T5, and most of them haven't been doing those for a looong time. A lot of the complainers are probably people who sell runs and are angry because they won't be able to profit as much anymore.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

The game just dug your prospect of ever doing content while it is fresh into the graves and you cheered. I guess some people just have no drive and enjoys being in the circle of echo

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LOL, I love how people like you just assume that people who don't do content 'while it is fresh' have 'no drive,' when instead they may actually just not have enough time in their lives to be at the bleeding edge of MMO content.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

What practice? You dont need to practice t6-8 anymore. ...

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So much false information. I was just in farm party for T7 and no soldiery bonus message showed up so everyone had to have clear knowledge. Yet it was wipe after wipe and no clear. I got stuck with kiting duty again, by the time the 3rd renaud was set, the adds were running loose, and who knows what the tanks was trying to do. When the adds kill the kiter, things usually go to the crappers. Sure I survived an accidental petrify that used to wipe right there, but it was no cakewalk. People certainly need more practice.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

T8 - Still a challenge. I attempted this for the first time only yesterday because I wasn’t able to clear T5 in time to get into all the practice parties the elitists had when T8 originally came out and when they evaporated. I was able to get Avatar within 1%. So close, yet so far. But it’s great to finally get some practice which is apparently too much for some people on this forum.

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So you got Avatar to 1% on your first go at T8. Yep, thats how a raid should be lol.

And I'm on your server, there are ALWAYS practice parties on PF during prime time and over the week ends

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Originally Posted by Kyroc

So you got Avatar to 1% on your first go at T8. Yep, thats how a raid should be lol.

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that's what is going to happen when everyone studied all the mechanics, the punishment for failing one is reduced (towers) or the damage caused by mines/towers is reduced. It's even more likely to happen if the majority in the group had practice or even kill exp.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

that's what is going to happen when everyone studied all the mechanics, the punishment for failing one is reduced (towers) or the damage caused by mines/towers is reduced. It's even more likely to happen if the majority in the group had practice or even kill exp.

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...I'm sure he was being sarcastic.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

What practice? You dont need to practice t6-8 anymore. ...

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Funny thing is I have more experience in T9 than T8. But in any case I was getting mroe practice in T8 last night, and people still wipe and people need practice. It is was learning/clear party with some guys that had cleared before calling out stuff on mumble. But people still don't see or know where all the mines went. It will take practice. It is a blatant lie to say it does NOT take practice.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

Here's my verdict:

T6 - Good to see the instakill mechanics removed. Having that goddamn hornet follow you into Phase 3 because someone didn't remove honey was total BS. Or the instakill Blighted Bouquet. Or those stupid slugs.

Because "stop attacking" was such a hard mechanic.....


T7 - Still a reasonable challenge. Instakill petrification was ABSOLUTE BS. The way it was, one accidental petrification on a tank or healer would end up costing the fight. Now it's just more of an annoyance and easily healed through

............................ So it is a mechanic that doesn't matter... Yep nothing wrong with that. You can literally straight ignore shrieks now because it literally doesn't matter one way or another.

T8 - Still a challenge. I attempted this for the first time only yesterday because I wasn’t able to clear T5 in time to get into all the practice parties the elitists had when T8 originally came out and when they evaporated. I was able to get Avatar within 1%. So close, yet so far. But it’s great to finally get some practice which is apparently too much for some people on this forum.

1st attempt.. 1% either you got carried HARD or it's horribly undertuned. No fight should be almost beaten in 1 pull.

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This post just affirms how ridiculous you sounded when this thread was started.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

T8 - Still a challenge.
I attempted this for the first time only yesterday
I was able to get Avatar within 1%.

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How is turn 8 still a challenge if...

1. You had never done T8 prior to the patch
2. You got it to 1% on the FIRST TRY

From what I've noticed since all the nerfs, the pure amount of effort that I've had to exert in second coil has been stunning.

T6 - Normally something I can breeze through is demanding so much healing attention even when there's no message that someone is new. They just do whatever and eat the damage.

T7 - Oh? You don't care if you get stoned anymore? Sure, awesome, great. I'm happy for you. But ya know, try not to stone me every five seconds. Try not to Voice Melusine either. Healing EVERYONE while she has three stacks AND tossing out fireballs at anyone cause there's too many ranged is awesome.
Oh? No kiter? Do ALL your normal healing things, combined with four stacks, AND kite and freeze your own renauds. Cause yeah, you're a sch.

So yeah, I'm happy that it's made it more accessible for new people, who I already will have to heal more (I'm fine with this. They will learn)...but I'm super happy for the people who have already cleared it and were terrible or are now lazy. Basically for every group I find that's good/decent there's five more that just don't give two shits about mechanics and expect me to heal through it all.

Ps. I have no idea why healers have been coming into T7 lately with Wave weapons. That's all I've been seeing and it's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Niasha

How is turn 8 still a challenge if...

1. You had never done T8 prior to the patch
2. You got it to 1% on the FIRST TRY

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People's 10th try still don't get to 1%. You have to be lucky to get a group of 7 vets that know what their doing to get that 1% on the first try. This is such a statistical outlier. I was trying T8 for the second time last night, and we can't get past 55% before the healers asked to leave because he was getting frustrated after the 5th wipe. People were being nice to help give us scrubs and noobs a chance to learn, so you can't force them to stay. But it is not 1% on the first try for 99.99% of the players out there.

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Originally Posted by Niasha

How is turn 8 still a challenge if...

1. You had never done T8 prior to the patch
2. You got it to 1% on the FIRST TRY

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What I meant was that I got Avatar to 1% after my first solid day of trying. The point was that I could try and try again to my heart's content instead of waiting for practice groups that never fill up. I won 1 battle out of 15 tries or so.

T8 is still pretty hard. The main issue is groups dying to either 1) slow healing or inadequate healing during towers or 2) Ballistic Missile. There's also a fair bit of coordination involved with towers. The most successful groups have someone who has a macro that calls out the tower sequencing order and landmine countdown.

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Originally Posted by Niasha

How is turn 8 still a challenge if...

1. You had never done T8 prior to the patch
2. You got it to 1% on the FIRST TRY

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Note that the OP's sever is Tonberry. We generally have a better DF experience than most other servers (hear say anyway).

I don't think it's unlikely that OP got to 1% on first try without any prior T8 experience. In fact, I did Ramuh EX about 4 weeks ago, got him to 1% on my first try too, despite having not tried doing Ramuh EX or reading any guides/watching any videos too. I know that it's sorta apples and oranges comparing Ramuh EX and T8 but point is that even challenging content can be cleared quite easily in DF on Tonberry.

The biggest problem whenever it comes to DF is always finding 7 other competent players who know what they're doing. On our server, this doesn't seem to be a very big issue, as most players I run into on DF are very competent/good players. Despite having a higher skilled DF base than most others, OP still only ended up clearing 1 out of 15 T8 attempts on the DF.

I haven't tried T6 post-nerf, but T7 post-nerf can still be a pain when you get stuff like 3 NIN/1 BRD parties (Melusine starts throwing Circle of Flame on the healers instead due to having no second ranged DPS), being Petrified during the Deathdancers phase, etc.

The difficulty has been lowered, but it's still not exactly a 100% clear without a static/farming party.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

instead of waiting for practice groups that never fill up.

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Stop repeating this lie. Tonberry practice groups fill extremely quickly. Especially when you consider 50% of the server is Japanese

Was Turn 7 nerfed into the ground? Of course it was. And I'm glad for it, because that encounter was ultimately terribly designed (if great for comedy wipes), gave me war veteran-esque Sindragosa flashbacks and the resultant shakes, and may also have left me permanently infertile. That encounter deserved every single thing it got.

Turn 8 is still plenty hard, too - it lost a grand total of one instant-death mechanic. It is still entirely possible to wipe if you have plenty of new folks.

If anything is overnerfed, it's poor Raffles. I'm all for helping lower-skill player catch up, but this is just sad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43W_C1RwZL0

I for one am glad to be able to catch up as a casual.
IS it still challenging? Somewhat due to DF players not know what htey get themselves into.

wiped so many times in all turns but hell thats what learning helps prevent..

Tired of seeing all the somewhat "Hardcore" folks crying about the nerfs. ITS DONE aint going back get used to it you knew it was coming.

the only thing i dont like about this is players geting the loot, why do you need it you have poetics anyway. this loot should be a status symbol for beating difficult content as well as a mark of a good player (of course ppl can cheat this with carries anyway). i really dont care about the content being made faceroll easy or there being no gating on patch day. hell let these people that cant get past t5 go into current fcob right now and try it i really dont mind.

also points have been made about wasted dev time and such since not everyone will play this. well i personaly dont do crafting/pvp/hunts/relic so from my perspective that would be wasted dev time too since its irrelevant to me (and many many others), but you dont see me complaining heh.

I for one am very glad to have the opportunity to PUG it when echo. Now I don't have to drool every time I see somebody wearing a high allagan gear :D

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Originally Posted by razzgrizz3

the only thing i dont like about this is players geting the loot, why do you need it you have poetics anyway.

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There's a cap on poetics; this allows someone to gear up very quickly to a level where they can start Final Coil.

And this doesn't just help the "casuals"; what if there's a shake-up on a relatively hardcore team's roster and they need to gear up a replacement member right now? Or what if someone needs a new job geared ASAP?

It's always interesting how it's rarely ever the proper top-end folks who complain about this sort of thing... because most top-end raiders love catch-up mechanics for making the Roster Boss no longer A Thing.

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Originally Posted by StarDrake

And this doesn't just help the "casuals"; what if there's a shake-up on a relatively hardcore team's roster and they need to gear up a replacement member right now? Or what if someone needs a new job geared ASAP?

It's always interesting how it's rarely ever the proper top-end folks who complain about this sort of thing... because most top-end raiders love catch-up mechanics for making the Roster Boss no longer A Thing.

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The people that can join statics and/or sub for others have probably already cleared at least T6-T7 at this point in time. We did some T6 and T7 post-patch last night actually, needed two subs, and said "hey let's use DF". The new player got hit by every blighted (getting killed sometimes as well) and couldn't dodge acid. The other tank couldn't figure out where to put the slugs for a burn strat (who said he'd done this before). We ended up having to do party finder and get actual competent subs.

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Originally Posted by StarDrake

...., but this is just sad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43W_C1RwZL0

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This a total statistical outlier at this current time. Heck they were single healing with a healer with tank like HP well over 6000 hp. Funny thing is, I happen to know one of the monks in that video and they just recently switched servers, and that monk was help tanking my first T5 clear some 5 months ago and they were good players. You got have a good static that knows what they are doing to be able to burn raffy in around 2 minutes. I was help subbing for some supposed T6 farm runs last night. Yet people wiped 3 times before getting the clear, it sure was not a 2 minute burn of raffy. Had to res a couple of players from blighted, including the other healer. It is not sad to see that dedicated players can hit a ball out of the park, it merely show what people can aim to do if they try. Adjusting T6 so top player can score the home runs, while the rest can get on base is good thing for everyone.

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Originally Posted by razzgrizz3

the only thing i dont like about this is players geting the loot, why do you need it you have poetics anyway. this loot should be a status symbol for beating difficult content as well as a mark of a good player (of course ppl can cheat this with carries anyway). i really dont care about the content being made faceroll easy or there being no gating on patch day. hell let these people that cant get past t5 go into current fcob right now and try it i really dont mind.

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Let me say this outright: gear is not a status symbol. It never really was to begin with, except in the minds of raiders. Gear is only a means to an end, that end being the content. It's there as a crutch to enable you to keep leveling once you reach the hard cap. It gives the developers control over the pace of the game, etc, etc.

WoW has been working for some time to downplay the importance of gear, while trying to give people other items, like achievements, titles, minions, etc. as proof of their accomplishments. Those are more long lasting anyways. Why the hell do you pin you pride on something you're going to replace, when an exclusive title is more permanent.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Let me say this outright: gear is not a status symbol. It never really was to begin with

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Gear has always been considered a status symbol since the dawn of visual MMOs. Even in MUDs it was to an extent. Just like people having certain makes of cars (say Ferrari) has been seen a status symbol - It's something you "earned/obtained."

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Those are more long lasting anyways.

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Only because they (and everyone who follows in Blizzard's footsteps) invalidates the gear you worked hard for in the next update. Otherwise Minions/titles etc become meaningless the more they overstature them. "GODSLAYER BLAH BLAH" means so little when there's something higher than the said god you slain in the next update.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Gear has always been considered a status symbol since the dawn of visual MMOs. Even in MUDs it was to an extent. Just like people having certain makes of cars (say Ferrari) has been seen a status symbol - It's something you "earned/obtained."

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First, simply because people consider gear a status symbol doesn't warrant the dev treating it as such. But most raiders will never understand that.

I originally was going to mention the transition. You're right, early MUDs, Everquest, and WoW treated gear as the goal of the endgame. However, WoW has slowly been changing away to more story driven and FFXIV is definitely story driven. In these games, the story is more important, and the purpose of gear is nothing more than to serve as a soft leveling mechanic so the dev can create harder challenges.

But this will fall on deaf ears.

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Only because they (and everyone who follows in Blizzard's footsteps) invalidates the gear you worked hard for in the next update. Otherwise Minions/titles etc become meaningless the more they overstature them. "GODSLAYER BLAH BLAH" means so little when there's something higher than the said god you slain in the next update.

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There's a reason it's called MUDflation; The term did originate in Everquest, but's it's a reference to DikuMUD. Blizzard most certainly did not start this trend.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

I attempted this for the first time only yesterday because I wasn’t able to clear T5 in time to get into all the practice parties the elitists had when T8 originally came out and when they evaporated.

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Lovely how you play the elitist card when you fail to clear something fast enough to get on the train. I assume everyone doing FCoB is an elitist, then.

Dumb discussion. Dumb and pointless. SE already nerfed coil and they will keep nerfing old content. There's nothing anybody can do about it.
People that finished that content should leave the players doing the catch-up keep telling themselves they are catching up on something. Just move on. WoW and it's 10mi subscriptions, it's multiple (USELESS) expansions (that you have to pay for to be allowed into the current content, even if you will just burn through and never even realize you were there) and it's adorable community is there to prove it's a lost battle. Let the nerfs come, people pretend they never did that content simply because they hate rope jumping and finally have a chance to progress. After all, that's how Modern MMO's (sadly... nobody cares about the RPG part) are supposed to be. Stop being so elitist.

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Originally Posted by StarDrake

There's a cap on poetics; this allows someone to gear up very quickly to a level where they can start Final Coil.

And this doesn't just help the "casuals"; what if there's a shake-up on a relatively hardcore team's roster and they need to gear up a replacement member right now? Or what if someone needs a new job geared ASAP?

It's always interesting how it's rarely ever the proper top-end folks who complain about this sort of thing... because most top-end raiders love catch-up mechanics for making the Roster Boss no longer A Thing.

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I'm actually in this situation right now with my own static, having went from Monk DPS to healer I need gear fast so we can progress on T9. The nerfs have been a blessing in that regard.