2.4 SMN Class Issues

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

OP's static as well as mine and many others have two casters in them so your point is invalid.

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Peoples individuals statics don't represent the whole. The most common statics run White Mage, Scholar, Paladin, Warrior, Bard , Monk, Ninja or Dragoon and Black Mage.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Peoples individuals statics don't represent the whole. The most common statics run White Mage, Scholar, Paladin, Warrior, Bard , Monk, Ninja or Dragoon and Black Mage.

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And you have the ability to know the comp of every static to determine a most common how exactly?

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Originally Posted by dday3six

And you have the ability to know the comp of every static to determine a most common how exactly?

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Damn your ninja post... ninja. >:x

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Originally Posted by Ardan

Spike is the same thing as burst and Dragoons are in dire need of adjustments. Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

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Summoners should excel in Single Target Burst and AoE Bursts then.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

And you have the ability to know the comp of every static to determine a most common how exactly?

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Look at Party Finder and see which class is in demand. I pugged for several weeks with different statics as a White Mage and Bard, Monk, Ninja or Dragoon and Black Mage. Even in End Game Dungeons I see rarely see Summoner's I think they just disappeared into thin air when it comes to End Game.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Look at Party Finder and see which class is in demand. I pugged for several weeks with different statics as a White Mage and Bard, Monk, Ninja or Dragoon and Black Mage. Even in End Game Dungeons I see rarely see Summoner's I think they just disappeared into thin air when it comes to End Game.

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That is anecdotal, based on your own personal experience, however that is in no way representing the playerbase as a whole. Also you know we can look up what you have leveled as Akiza Izinski. You only have SMN/SCH and WHM at 50. What is the PC name/s that you have BRD, MNK, NIN, DRG, and BLM under?

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Look at Party Finder and see which class is in demand. I pugged for several weeks with different statics as a White Mage and Bard, Monk, Ninja or Dragoon and Black Mage. Even in End Game Dungeons I see rarely see Summoner's I think they just disappeared into thin air when it comes to End Game.

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Your perspective is one of the several millions that play this game. Just because you don't see any doesn't mean nobody plays the class. I've gone though dozens of DF dungeons and haven't seen a single Bard. Obviously nobody plays bard. Bard buffs go!

Odd, my Dragoon friend on Leviathan was pretty clear in saying he was having a hard time finding an FCOB static despite having T11 clear experience.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

SMN also not good at T10.

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Dot/Bane 1st to kill set of adds. Miasma II(Have SF in place before they spawn)

Dot, Miasma II Contagion other sister - Bane (put garuda on 2nd set son)

Dot 1st set son in reverse

Attack Sister till dots wear. Dot - Bane to Son - Attack Son. Enjoy almost 700 DPS with near 100% dot uptime/usage.

2nd set is essentially the same. You just contagion the last spawn. Minus the loss from being on LB duty

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

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I didn't say summoner was not capable on T10 at all but that a BLM is outdoing in all situations per mana.
Double Flares and Fire IIs give the same numbers with less constraints.

Rotation wise, this is quite close to what I do. The exception is that with good DPS you can't get full uptime on any of these mobs cause they are blown up. In my group, Nin, Brd, Blm and Sch are all getting damage. Only Dots on the second set get a full duration (with Contagion). First set dies fairly quickly.

For second group of adds(55%), I do the LB, (usually precasting it) Dot up + Bane one side (Tank we free up first), start dotting the other side, and then somewhere in there I get back aetherflow and then I use a Raging Strikes + Int Potion then to Contagion and Bane a full set of strong Dots on that third set of Adds.

Not to mention, I find myself going into those phases with not many Aetherflow stacks. Usually one on hand, while Aetherflow still has say 30 - 45 seconds cd going into adds. This rotation seems both mana intensive, no? Wouldn't have to hold back on a fester before add phase or your average party DPS is low enough where you get more time before pushing into add phase to have stacks ready to do all this multibane-ing. I'm not saying its impossible just not 100% viable with some intense DPS pushing.

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Originally Posted by Dinocat

By nature of the class, if there were 2 bosses of equal health on 2 sides of the room, which allowed for SMN to put full strength DoTs on both, in effect this could result in the SMN being top DPS for that specific encounter. However, is this not the nature of the encounter as opposed to the nature of the class? [No such fight exists at this time.]

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Technically it does, just not for anything anyone cares about: Leviathan Extreme. Even with the fact that the Tail reflects back onto you, and only double DoTing when you can Bane onto the Tail (so you just get a single reflect), SMN pretty much destroys any other dps due to this and rolling DoTs while Leviathan was off the boat. If you decide to pain your healer, it gets even more intense. If most/every endgame encounter was set up like Leviathan, SMNs would be shining gods of damage.

The reality is that it seems these days, melee dps wreck everything (particularly MNK+NIN), and it's everyone else who is more severely punished for moving around and whatnot. The less adds there are, the less exciting any kind of caster dps "feels" these days. I'd happily have the roles become more complex (BLM in particular is super easy to play, which makes it even more alarming how many poor BLMs are out there) to have a shot at doing competitive dps on single target. Being a caster (or a WHM!) is pretty amazing dps in Syrcus Tower, but less exciting when dealing with only a single target with minimal or nonexistent adds.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I didn't say summoner was not capable on T10 at all but that a BLM is outdoing in all situations per mana.
Double Flares and Fire IIs give the same numbers with less constraints.

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We usually do 5 stacks on the first add phase and 8 on the second, if that gives a good representation of the group DPS.

Sometimes I cut it close to DOT the MT Sister in order to Bane it to the Brother before the sister dies now that everyone is getting more used to the fight. (we kill OT adds first)
This gives me two full sets of dots on OT adds + 1 full set on OT Brother (3 sets), then a full set of Contagion'd Dots on MT adds + 1/2 on the sister and full on the Brother.

So in total 7.5 sets.

I don't find T10 Mana intensive at all. So far I'm pushing close to 500 DPS and could do the entire fight without Ballad. I might start to use Blizz II on some of the adds to push even higher during those add phases.

Edited for derpyness

What is your gear, Judge Xero? On pretty perfect runs on my BLM with LB3 on adds I usually get around 420 DPS. I have played with good Summoners as well and excuse me for doubting, but near 500 DPS on T10 as a Summoner without mana support. I'm going to put this bluntly. Provide concrete proof, or most people will think you're full of shit.

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Originally Posted by ViviAnimus

What is your gear, Judge Xero? On pretty perfect runs on my BLM with LB3 on adds I usually get around 420 DPS. I have played with good Summoners as well and excuse me for doubting, but near 500 DPS on T10 as a Summoner without mana support. I'm going to put this bluntly. Provide concrete proof, or most people will think you're full of shit.

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Was actually thinking that lol. Was looking into how to make a quality video. It's one thing to math it out, but in practice it doesn't always work the same.

I will see if I have the hardware to record/game. Not sure if there would be an issue with 1440p resolution.

Edited: Here's the gear I was wearing http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OLCU

Most people saying they do 500 dps on a Summoner for FCOB don't back it up with damage meters. On damage meters for T10 the Elite Summoners do around 420 dps while the Average Summoners do 320-340 Dps.

Not very into pokemon but used Arcanist for a bit and certainly could feel the MP issues had I go into a more taxing environment than I did...

I think it would be awesome if:

- Energy Drain could only be used while Aetherflow stacks are active (already does, duh)
- Energy Drain did not consume the Aetherflow stacks.
- Energy Drain had a CD of 60 to 120 seconds.
+ Energy Drain had an MP recovery rate of 10 + 10 * Aetherflow stacks % (for a max of 40%) of the user's maximum MP.
+ Or Energy Drain had a MP recovery boost of damage done * 100 * Aetherflow stacks % (instead of only a 50% of the damage done)

This idea under the objective of attaining a roughly self MP sustain of 8~10 minutes, while still being mindful of one self mana, the proper rotation of this skill and removing the hindrance impeding the use of the so desired Fester skill.
Just dreaming here tho.

They aren't going to do anything to the Summoner until 3.0 and seeing how both Lady Iceheart during the Shiva quest line and Louisoix in FCOB Turn 3 revealed another art of summoning Primals by taking their essence and embodying the Primals form. I'm guessing SE is just going to give the Summoner a summoning arts skill line and the ability to summon the Primals by taking on their form.

500 DPS with the book of spades? You're full of it ;)

I find near 500 pretty farfetched, yeah. I've finished slightly higher than 480 as BLM while doing LB3 (as in not counting LB3's damage; otherwise only slight room for improvement or requiring one hell of a run proc-wise), but I also had i130 weapon and Selene.

I don't think SMN can win in T10 unless BLM gets victimized multiple times, in which situation a SMN is better than BLM.

Well I was iLVL 113 with HA staff and no pentamelded gear either. So I can probably push it to around 450-460 with 130 staff and a bit more gear. Obviously some more experience would be great too. Not sure if Selene was there too and I don't get Battlevoiced Requiems. I am going to try and record our kill next week, Sleigh. Any chance of you looking at it and give me some hints? Also, I use a controller but it's not an obstacle at all.

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Originally Posted by ViviAnimus

Well I am was iLVL 113 with HA staff and no pentamelded gear either. So I can probably push it to around 450-460 with 130 staff and a bit more gear. Obviously some more experience would be great too. Not sure if Selene was there too and I don't get Battlevoiced Requiems. I am going to try and record our kill next week, Sleigh. Any chance of you looking at it and give me some hints? Also, I use a controller but it's not an obstacle at all.

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Don't stack for P1 Wild Charges. Training dummy it.
End all rotations with Flare on the adds. If no pot/Convert, use Transpose > T2 on the set that dies second and continue on your way.
If you have to LB3, do a rotation into Flare > Transpose > LB3. You have time. It won't be long until gear forces people to skip LB3 in the add phase altogether, even my group with only some i130 weapons and pieces doesn't get LB3 until into the second wave of adds in the second set of adds.
Fireweave any time you have to move. AM is risky, I don't mess with it in T10. Ideally you don't want to be someone who is on tethers in Tether > charge but I am, which is a DPS loss, but I do the call outs so I just suck it up and manually run up if I have nothing stored.

I could easily see a BLM in a far better situation than me (2 BRDs for more Foe's and/or SMN doing LB3, never doing tethers if they can help it, good procs, never getting captured for Wild Charge) doing above 500 in i110 + i115 weapon. The fight's more or less training dummy with a bit of RNG. With one BRD, however, Foe's isn't played often, so that's a downer.

Cheers mate

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

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Sorry but, there's no way you did 500 DPS without mana support and an i110 weapon. I did everything perfectly in that fight, have an I115 weapon and came out at 450. Granted, our bard doesn't play ballad on T10, but even with ballad it would probably be close to 480 or so and that's with an I115 weapon.

Honestly, ive heard it all. No offense but indeed 500dps is way to high,
i feel 450 for a SMN is already to high on T10. It might be that you parse the fight differently then me,
but i am the only Caster in our group ( 2x BRD 1x PLD 1x WAR 1xWHM 1x SCH 1xMNK + SMN)
Not the ideal setup, but we make it work, i keep up 420 dps and 500 burst,
Then at the moment i need to LB i lose most of the DPS right there.

Again, this might be that you people parse this way differently, or claim your burst dps is your actual dps. (or have someone else LB)
Either way, i think some people are full of crap, No offense.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Sorry but, there's no way you did 500 DPS without mana support and an i110 weapon. I did everything perfectly in that fight, have an I115 weapon and came out at 450. Granted, our bard doesn't play ballad on T10, but even with ballad it would probably be close to 480 or so and that's with an I115 weapon.

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You are right. I did some more parses on T10 without Garuda's damage being automatically added to mine and it was lower. It was adding almost exactly 60 DPS to my total. Sorry for the misinformation. I've never run into that before other than when another Garuda was in the party.


Also, I did record some video's but it only recorded my game and not the overlay windows with DPS.

Such an excellent post OP. I really hope the dev's listen. the Spell Speed issue particularly infuriates me to no end.

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Originally Posted by SinSaberius

Honestly, ive heard it all.

Either way, i think some people are full of crap, No offense.

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I agree. Waaaay too much BS being thrown around.

People are claiming 450-500 when the only actual clear videos ive seen that have dps # and a summoner in the group, the best smn are pulling 429 max on t10 and 11 with 401 max on t12. Lots of claims of higher numbers but no videos to back them up.

This is after hearing weeks of "oh with the adds in t10/11/12 summoner should be hitting 500 dps easily. Probably close to 700 during the adds phases."

for those of you that want to see the best numbers on film that i've found so far, check out http://www.twitch.tv/crimmmd/profile

You can do a lot more than 401 on T12. Someone in my guild does around 430. T12 is a Summoner friendly fight since you can bane the bennus and also bane the adds in other phases.

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Originally Posted by ViviAnimus

You can do a lot more than 401 on T12. Someone in my guild does around 430. T12 is a Summoner friendly fight since you can bane the bennus and also bane the adds in other phases.

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Yes, T12. But T10 isnt 500dps or 450.

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Originally Posted by ViviAnimus

You can do a lot more than 401 on T12. Someone in my guild does around 430. T12 is a Summoner friendly fight since you can bane the bennus and also bane the adds in other phases.

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im sure its possible since 401 isnt super high. do you have a video though?

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Originally Posted by Lamia-Blackheart

see the best numbers on film that i've found so far, check out http://www.twitch.tv/crimmmd/profile

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Pretty good. Still room for improvement on T10
- They had lots of MP, so Miasma II would be good for the first set of adds
- Placing Shadow Flare in the center of the arena will do damage to the Boss even during Charge

I'm sure it wasn't their best run, due to casting slow/swapping targets slow.

That monk though ;p

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Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

SMN is fine. Just because DRGs are getting their much needed and over due buff doesn't mean every other job should follow suit. YOU"RE FINE.

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Stop with the DRG coming into the SMN thread. We ALL know you need to be fixed, but try playing as a SMN in FCoB. Its just as frustrating if not more so than playing DRG. Running OOM and seeing your DPS drop to levels when compared to the BLM that got buffed in the last tier.

Personally, most of our issues would be remedied by giving SMN a trait that allowed SS to reduce CDs on Aetherflow, Rouse, Spur and Enkindle. If Spell Speed turned into Pet Skill Speed that would be good as well. These changes could be scaled easily and it would give us something we desperately need.

That being said, both sides of the Arcanist; Scholar and Summoner are having scaling issues this tier. While Energy Drain does not scale with damage done (it should).

No explicit mention of SMN (who IMO is in an even worse spot than DRG is now) in the letter LIVE. Gotta just hope there are a few MP cost reductions thrown in, something to keep them relevant for the next half year.

imo the issue with smn is that they cant exceed dps checks as much as other jobs. we can comfortably hit the required dps goals while providing virus, e4e, and swift raises.

it sucks to not get 500+ at the end of the encounter but we can still get in that range during add phases.

might not require much attention. maybe just better gear.

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Originally Posted by Lamia-Blackheart

imo the issue with smn is that they cant exceed dps checks as much as other jobs. we can comfortably hit the required dps goals while providing virus, e4e, and swift raises.

it sucks to not get 500+ at the end of the encounter but we can still get in that range during add phases.

might not require much attention. maybe just better gear.

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Better gear that response is the reason people complain about the Summoner because it is entirely gear dependent not based on skill like other Jobs. Every Job can exceed the dps check with the minimum gear requirement except the Summoner. If the Summoner fails to get coil drops their dps will suck hard compared to other Jobs with the most basic gear.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Better gear that response is the reason people complain about the Summoner because it is entirely gear dependent not based on skill like other Jobs. Every Job can exceed the dps check with the minimum gear requirement except the Summoner. If the Summoner fails to get coil drops their dps will suck hard compared to other Jobs with the most basic gear.

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nah not really. an i110 smn can still exceed the dps checks of FCOB. thats how we all cleared fcob turns for the first few weeks. dont forget that the world first t13 clears were in i110 with vit accessories so they had lower int.

i think smn is more reliant on skill than on gear, like any other dps class.

Think if they change how dots work, say instead of going off of server time, but instead the dots had there own internal time that was effected by spellspeed it would, make spellspeed more viable. More SS = More Ticks during the dots lifetime.

I hope dev reduce the CD for Enkindle skill to 120s instead of 300s. 300s is too long for skill that not give a higher damage or the CD still 300s but raise the skill potency to 500+ since its do higher damage. Then please cancel casting time to Bio 2 and Miasma 1 since that the only main dps skill that SMN has and it can distinguish the SMN from BLM in term of gameplay utilities since BLM is already have higher dps & good AOE skill. Besides, dev can remove the raise and psyhick skill since its mostly useless in raid/dungeon coz SMN have no time to use it because SMN usually tend to DPS rather than do healing/raise thing like SCH/WHM do. This 2 slot can be replace by damage buff/skill for SMN.

I also like the idea, that summoning pet will get permanent party buff like summon garuda will get 5% increase int & spell speed/skill speed etc. I also like the rework idea that, if summoning pet like garuda, SMN will get access to wind type spell and this elemental spell can replace with raise and physick spell. Last but not least, I really hope dev will rework the appearances of the egi's. At least create a true primal appearances in size of the player/minion and not the crystallize one. This will make SMN look like a true Final Fantasy summoner.

Interesting thought about the Enhanced Pet Skill.

Seeing as how it's SMNs proc skill and due to how the spell speed stat works it amounts to just shy of nothing, I get the feeling that it was a design flaw.

What I think it should be is
"Increase Casting Speed by 20%"

This would put SMN @ 2s GCD or less when it procs and give it an opportunity to make up damage when it procs.

For SCH this shouldn't have a major impact over WHM who has a CD for the same effect.

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Example using Ifrit for the double proc rate and crit gear @ (i130) on average you should be able to get an extra 3-4 Ruins each 60s.
(~24 DPS on the high end)