White Mage vs Scholar - Why is White Mage lacking?

6 lustrates on 6 people? It'd be quicker to just cure III =P

Seriously though, SCH single target HPs is a little dependant on the rest of the group not being low enough to suck embraces from your intended target. T13 phase 2 after Rage of Bahamut is a perfect example of this issue. On SCH I don't want to waste charges at that point, preferring to save them for the flatten/breath later on, as well as a potential clutch save for megaflare. As a result, even whilst mashing an embrace macro, keeping the MT up is surprisingly rough. At that particular point it's noticeably easier as WHM purely because of how unruly EoS/Selene can be.

Stuff like T5 and T9 was always the opposite, no one else was usually low hp hence the feeling of 'SCH = single target kings'.

I'm sure it's been said plenty over the past nine pages, but WHM is a raid healer first, tank healer second. That's not to say that they are bad at tank healing (they're not bad at any aspect of healing), but more to say that they excel at raid healing. They play very similarly to Holy Priest in WoW:

• Keep Medica 2 up in times of constant raid damage
• Keep Regen up on several targets, pre-casting it shortly before they take damage if possible
• Cure III in times of high-to-severe raid damage, assuming people are stacked enough, Medica-spam if not
• Pre-Stoneskin on targets who are about to take high-to-severe damage
• Cast Cure II in an emergency situation, or if the Freecure buff is about to wear off
• Cast Cure on players who need topping off that Regen will not provide

Honestly the only thing I want is for Shroud to scale. It's pretty much going to be required with the expansion on the horizon.

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Originally Posted by Thistledown

So according to you, being able to split burst healing on up to 3-6 targets is less control?

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25% is burst heal? lol, on 6 stacks with lustrates back to back, why would anyone spread that with only 25%?
both classes can burst heal in terms of a single target. Raid wide scholar can't even compete with a whm..
6 lustrates are 25% x 6 with full stacks (intervals) > benediction.
Cure III Instant healing > Succor spam + fairy regen (intervals) again with less control. (I wouldn't even call this a burst)

i dont even.
if that's still not clear yet you can start asking yourself why a whm gets aggro like crazy over a scholar....

Burst isn't just about power; speed is a factor. SCH achieves superior burst on single targets by being able to weave Lustrates and Embraces between GCD heals.

WHM raid healing power is undeniably higher, and they are more efficient at raid healing in terms of actions required to get the job done.

As for aggro, the answer isn't simply that WHMs have overall greater heal potency (though they do); it's that Galvanize effects conveniently don't incur healing aggro, and the fairies have their own enmity rating :P

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Burst isn't just about power; speed is a factor. SCH achieves superior burst on single targets by being able to weave Lustrates and Embraces between GCD heals.

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Sadly you can't consider Embrace as a factor since you can't put it on full manual.

But yes, I agree that, generally speaking, SINGLE TARGET burst healing is something SCH is good at, this is why they are often considered tank healers.

Considering the amount of AOE burst healing needed in FCoB tho, I can hardly understand how people can even think about WHM being subpar.

A lotta people trashing the OP, who is just voicing his concerns/desires. One to three word responses are not constructive and deter from the OP's message.

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

WHM is fine.

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Your contribution to the discussion, bottles my mind.

@OP: I appreciate your comments but would ask you to consider that the WHM is more of a "straight up" healer; a walking bandage. While SCH is more of a first aid kit; there's more in there than band-aids and neosporin.

If you are truly min maxing, both healers can play both classes, period.
Some encounters 2 whm could be better, some 2 sch, usually (in most existing content) 1 of each is ideal.

never mind, I forget anyone who matters already understands this point already.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Sadly you can't consider Embrace as a factor since you can't put it on full manual.

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As an off-GCD heal (for the SCH, anyway) it's certainly a factor. Full manual would be nice as an option, but keybind spam generally works :)

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Burst isn't just about power; speed is a factor. SCH achieves superior burst on single targets by being able to weave Lustrates and Embraces between GCD heals.

WHM raid healing power is undeniably higher, and they are more efficient at raid healing in terms of actions required to get the job done.

As for aggro, the answer isn't simply that WHMs have overall greater heal potency (though they do); it's that Galvanize effects conveniently don't incur healing aggro, and the fairies have their own enmity rating :P

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It's not even about healing potency, the reason why SCH doesn't have much control is because once they fail to manage their stacks or clip the embrace right before the next attack in it's pretty much over, and when they're done using all their stacks and more heavy incoming damage takes place, there is no way a scholar can manage to salvage anything with adlo spam, because even then Galvanize has a delay of taking effect after the heal lands. WHM can sustain their heals with much control over a scholar, it's so obvious that it drains their mana like crazy, hence, it's balanced. Also, don't forget the pet is infinite on mana reserves for a reason. keywords, again, intervals in time or installments.

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

It's not even about healing potency, the reason why SCH doesn't have much control is because once they fail to manage their stacks or clip the embrace right before the next attack in it's pretty much over, and when they're done using all their stacks and more heavy incoming damage takes place, there is no way a scholar can manage to salvage anything with adlo spam, because even then Galvanize has a delay of taking effect after the heal lands. WHM can sustain their heals with much control over a scholar, it's so obvious that it drains their mana like crazy, hence, it's balanced. Also, don't forget the pet is infinite on mana reserves for a reason. keywords, again, intervals in time or installments.

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This is why you don't fail to manage your stacks properly and don't stop spamming your Embrace keybind.

I do understand what you're getting it, but I think you might be overstating the problem. The fairy may not be 100% responsive in the way that the player character is, but it's also not wildly ADHD and prone to running around doing nothing even if you fail to control it to the best of your ability. Also don't forget to factor in the decent probability of Adlo crits during a "burst" healing effort and the fact that the fairy can and will crit its heals on top of that.

SCH has plenty of control if you're doing it right. Paying attention to the effect of your heals, your shields, and the fairy's heals and adjusting on the fly is just how its done. I don't feel remotely uncontrolled as either SCH or WHM.

WHM is not any more controlled, but it is more "predictable" in the sense that you can sit there and heal in large chunks, even if almost entirely dependent on your character's GCD, expecting more or less the same result over time. The main challenge with this chunk healing aside from being largely GCD-bound is that A) any overheal is useless since it's pure HP; B) as you noted, MP will not last; and C) WHM healing aggro is serious business since none of its healing power is diverted to shields or supplemented by a pet.

WHM is plenty powerful and undeniably more efficient at raid healing, but it doesn't stack up to SCH's single-target healing potential in any practical way.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

This is why you don't fail to manage your stacks properly and don't stop spamming your Embrace keybind.

I do understand what you're getting it, but I think you might be overstating the problem. The fairy may not be 100% responsive in the way that the player character is, but it's also not wildly ADHD and prone to running around doing nothing even if you fail to control it to the best of your ability. Also don't forget to factor in the decent probability of Adlo crits during a "burst" healing effort and the fact that the fairy can and will crit its heals on top of that.

SCH has plenty of control if you're doing it right. Paying attention to the effect of your heals, your shields, and the fairy's heals and adjusting on the fly is just how its done. I don't feel remotely uncontrolled as either SCH or WHM.

WHM is not any more controlled, but it is more "predictable" in the sense that you can sit there and heal in large chunks, even if almost entirely dependent on your character's GCD, expecting more or less the same result over time. The main challenge with this chunk healing aside from being largely GCD-bound is that A) any overheal is useless since it's pure HP; B) as you noted, MP will not last; and C) WHM healing aggro is serious business since none of its healing power is diverted to shields or supplemented by a pet.

WHM is plenty powerful and undeniably more efficient at raid healing, but it doesn't stack up to SCH's single-target healing potential in any practical way.

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Ofc most of your points are valid, but you also do understand that in most fights- party members are taking avoidable damage (or just having some terrible RNG with damage crits/lag/etc) and as their scholar you will have to act on an impulse in order to save them and hence stacks being lost anyway, based on experience it's not due to poor planning but recovery and survivability is a scholar's thing. There is no such thing as a perfect run being handed out. This solely separates a great scholar from a good one. The reason why WHM is powerful and more controlled in a sense is because they are anticipating the damage and pre-cast through it to recover while scholar is acting on impulse after seeing the damage already being done. This also includes the pet bot that helps healing other targets as well. Ofc, Adlo is needed to mitigate damage beforehand but it's something a scholar is simply not going to spam unless it's needed under consistent heavy damage. Fairy delay is absolute and whether it's moving or not, when activating buffs and what not there will be some minimum delay in execution unless you switch pet stances over and over. One more thing about WHM is that they are very difficult to master just because you should know the fight by heart and the damage sequence to know when to NOT heal, most scholars only need to know when their stacks are most critical and save them up as well as when they should be able to squeeze dps, nonetheless SCH takes more accountability than a WHM incase of some healing failure on the tank even during an auto attack but the WHM will take full responsibility for not being able heal the raid on a full range of AOE damage.

I didn't know we where lacking of WHM.

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Originally Posted by radioactive_lego

A lotta people trashing the OP, who is just voicing his concerns/desires. One to three word responses are not constructive and deter from the OP's message.



Your contribution to the discussion, bottles my mind.

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http://itserver.montytech.net/Studen...ac-d6r0f7k.png

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

...as their scholar you will have to act on an impulse in order to save them and hence stacks being lost anyway, based on experience it's not due to poor planning but recovery and survivability is a scholar's thing. There is no such thing as a perfect run being handed out. This solely separates a great scholar from a good one. The reason why WHM is powerful and more controlled in a sense is because they are anticipating the damage and pre-cast through it to recover while scholar is acting on impulse after seeing the damage already being done...

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SCH and WHM are equally accountable for anticipating the flow of a fight; the only distinction is that WHM is punished more severely for failing to think ahead since they have less room for slop with their GCDs. Impulse healing is the exception, not the rule.

Also, if party members are consistently taking avoidable damage, the group is A) learning content; B) a casual DF/PF group; or C) drunk. E.g. I rarely find myself spending stacks to clutch heal except when one or more party members have no idea what they're doing, and that's typically a situation like ST where half the raid can take dirt nap while the competent half cleans up.

Besides, in any solo-healing situation where other players in the raid are eating large, avoidable hits at the same time that the tank is taking spike damage, the WHM will have more serious problems than the SCH's choice of blowing a stack on Lustrate for DPS to cover derps; while the SCH might be pressured to spend stacks and to spam Embrace <mo> on a non-tank, the WHM will still need to respect their GCD aside from blowing Benediction. This is why I find solo healing a solo tank in T7 much simpler as SCH since it's easier to cover DPS' mistakes while maintaining necessary heals on the tank.

Outside of solo healing, Lustrates on the raid are even less necessary since you have a healing partner, and if it's a WHM, they are probably healing raid damage quickly and efficiently enough that you don't need to worry much.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

SCH and WHM are equally accountable for anticipating the flow of a fight; the only distinction is that WHM is punished more severely for failing to think ahead since they have less room for slop with their GCDs. Impulse healing is the exception, not the rule.

Also, if party members are consistently taking avoidable damage, the group is A) learning content; B) a casual DF/PF group; or C) drunk. E.g. I rarely find myself spending stacks to clutch heal except when one or more party members have no idea what they're doing, and that's typically a situation like ST where half the raid can take dirt nap while the competent half cleans up.

Besides, in any solo-healing situation where other players in the raid are eating large, avoidable hits at the same time that the tank is taking spike damage, the WHM will have more serious problems than the SCH's choice of blowing a stack on Lustrate for DPS to cover derps; while the SCH might be pressured to spend stacks and to spam Embrace <mo> on a non-tank, the WHM will still need to respect their GCD aside from blowing Benediction. This is why I find solo healing a solo tank in T7 much simpler as SCH since it's easier to cover DPS' mistakes while maintaining necessary heals on the tank.

Outside of solo healing, Lustrates on the raid are even less necessary since you have a healing partner, and if it's a WHM, they are probably healing raid damage quickly and efficiently enough that you don't need to worry much.

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I will have to disagree there, WHM have more of an impact in terms on performance in learning fight mechanics than a scholar simply because most of the time the scholar is dpsing and the whm is solo healing aka T9/T8 and most endgame raid content- and if the fight is heavy on movement the WHM will have to know every mechanic to be able to position and heal, meaning they need to know it before it takes place to move, precast and so on, they cannot pop some instant heal other than benediction which makes complete sense. Learning fight patterns is always more forgiving and easier on a scholar, this is a given. Also, it is not about being consistent with taking heavy damage, if the fight is healing intensive then 1 stack can pretty much wipe the raid aka t13 with lower tier gear or even with the tier gear required for that turn. Ofc less intensive healing content is not even relevant in a sense since most people are over geared for it at this point, including dungeons and most content of past patches.

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Originally Posted by radioactive_lego

@OP: I appreciate your comments but would ask you to consider that the WHM is more of a "straight up" healer; a walking bandage. While SCH is more of a first aid kit; there's more in there than band-aids and neosporin.

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Cute names, I agree tho.


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I like how this thread is still going tho...and since I last checked I saw yet another Scholar solo heal video of Shiva EX. While, I'm sure White Mage could pull that off, there were only four players, 2 blm, pld (i think) and a scholar. Go figure Scholar was the one to solo heal it, just like in the first turn 9 solo heal that I've heard of.

Anyway, noone here has convinced me that White Mage is fine. I see some people talking about WHM could use a more scaling Shroud of Saints. This would be great to see, and a step up in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Slib

Anyway, noone here has convinced me that White Mage is fine. I see some people talking about WHM could use a more scaling Shroud of Saints. This would be great to see, and a step up in the right direction.

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That's because you have already closed your mind to the fact that WHMs are fine. You aren't looking for a discussion, you just want a platform to spew your opinion that you think that SCH is better, which plenty of people have posted otherwise to disagree with you. I would be ashamed to raid in a team with you. My SCH and I work synergistically together, with the understanding that we bring different skills to the table that help our team progress. I heal harder so that he can use selene to improve our dps, who can in turn kill a boss faster so that there is less stress on the tanks and heals.

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Originally Posted by Luthvian

That's because you have already closed your mind to the fact that WHMs are fine.

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I haven't closed my mind to the fact that WHM lack compared to Scholar. That's what this was about. I just gave up repeating myself over and over. No reason to repeat myself when people can just reread what I said previously.

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Originally Posted by Slib

I haven't closed my mind to the fact that WHM lack compared to Scholar. That's what this was about. I just gave up repeating myself over and over. No reason to repeat myself when people can just reread what I said previously.

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You also repeatedly contradicted your own statement about your mindset by constantly countering other arguments with a "yes, I agree BUT or HOWEVER" context. Whoever's not literally reading whatever is being written can read between the lines there's some passive-aggressive scholar>white mage mindset behind your posts. For starters: Look at the title and what you're even writing yourself about white mages in what I just quoted

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

SCH and WHM are equally accountable for anticipating the flow of a fight; the only distinction is that WHM is punished more severely for failing to think ahead since they have less room for slop with their GCDs. Impulse healing is the exception, not the rule.

Also, if party members are consistently taking avoidable damage, the group is A) learning content; B) a casual DF/PF group; or C) drunk. E.g. I rarely find myself spending stacks to clutch heal except when one or more party members have no idea what they're doing, and that's typically a situation like ST where half the raid can take dirt nap while the competent half cleans up.

Besides, in any solo-healing situation where other players in the raid are eating large, avoidable hits at the same time that the tank is taking spike damage, the WHM will have more serious problems than the SCH's choice of blowing a stack on Lustrate for DPS to cover derps; while the SCH might be pressured to spend stacks and to spam Embrace <mo> on a non-tank, the WHM will still need to respect their GCD aside from blowing Benediction. This is why I find solo healing a solo tank in T7 much simpler as SCH since it's easier to cover DPS' mistakes while maintaining necessary heals on the tank.

Outside of solo healing, Lustrates on the raid are even less necessary since you have a healing partner, and if it's a WHM, they are probably healing raid damage quickly and efficiently enough that you don't need to worry much.

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I don't mean to be rude but I couldn't disagree with you more and I am really surprised you would say that as as SCH. You find solo healing easier because SCH is a mitigation healer and doesn't have to re-actively heal like a WHM. Not to mention, if you are solo-healing content it means you are most likely over-geared for it to start with which in turn, again, makes a mitigation healer much more useful. Unless you fall behind but that's exactly why it's much more important for a SCH to anticipate the fight. Sure, they better precast some of those long heals but that doesn't mean you need to know the fight. On the contrary, you can basically spam Cure II if you want and just interrupt whenever it's not needed. Whereas, good luck with not having Sacred Soil or Succor Fay Illumination up BEFORE something big hits.

On the the other hand - solo healing a solo tank for a SCH is of course easier - we are much better at solo healing a tank then a WHM.

With that said, I can't believe people are still fighting over which class is more OP or UP..Both healer classes get the job done and have great synergy together (outside of a few encounters that might favor one or the other).

Unless I am way overgeared for an encounter I am VERY happy that my WHM partner is covering the AoE and big heals.

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

Snip.

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I'm confused by what I just read. Did you suggest that a SCH needs to "anticipate" but not "know" the fight? How do you effectively anticipate without some foreknowledge? Or did you mean that it is the WHM who doesn't need to know the fight, because that makes even less sense to me.

Also, neither healer role should be played reactively. This is part of the popular misconception of WHM in particular. Yes, you are forced to react to mechanics and to other players' actions, but most players take "reactive" to mean exclusively "wait until something has happened and then patch it up" rather than "anticipate and then act accordingly."

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I'm confused by what I just read. Did you suggest that a SCH needs to "anticipate" but not "know" the fight? How do you effectively anticipate without some foreknowledge? Or did you mean that it is the WHM who doesn't need to know the fight, because that makes even less sense to me.

Also, neither healer role should be played reactively. This is part of the popular misconception of WHM in particular. Yes, you are forced to react to mechanics and to other players' actions, but most players take "reactive" to mean exclusively "wait until something has happened and then patch it up" rather than "anticipate and then act accordingly."

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Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I was trying to say is that it's harder for a SCH to go into an unknown fight because we need to be able to anticipate more than the WHM in order to get full potential of our mitigation based play style. And yes WHM is a reactive healer compared to SCH which is a pro-active healer. Of course both healers need to know the fight but a SCH gets punished more if they do not have their mitigation tools up before something hits. A WHM can still cast Medica 2 or swiftcast a Cure 2 to catch up while a SCH has their lustrates which might not always be available. Which is again, a strong point for the fact that SCH has to know the fights and when to use our CDs in more detail than a WHM. If the players wants to play to their full potential that is.
Precasting Cure II and just interrupting when it's not needed is not really the same.

A WHM's most important tools are to patch up damage. A SCH's most important tools are to avoid damage.

I get what you're saying, but I can't agree.

WHMs are punished very badly for making mistakes; being almost entirely bound to a single GCD means that they cannot afford to mismanage their actions in tight situations, and simply overhealing to compensate (e.g. Cure II spam) will dump MP and eventually cause so much aggro that Shroud won't be off of cooldown before it's desperately needed again.

SCHs have a much easier time in learning phases since their MP-management mechanic is highly forgiving, allowing for heal+shield-slopping all over the place if you really must. I also don't perceive any lack of healing power on SCH except that SCH raid healing is unquestionably less efficient than that of WHM. Sacred Soil is barely ever needed and is reserved for very specific mechanics. Fey Illumination? Poor Eos collects dust 95% of the time at end-game, only let out of her cage once in a while.

Both healers must be played proactively if you want them to function at their highest potential. Whether you're shielding in anticipation of an attack or timing that Medica II perfectly with the boss' AoE, you are being proactive.

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I was trying to say is that it's harder for a SCH to go into an unknown fight because we need to be able to anticipate more than the WHM in order to get full potential of our mitigation based play style

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It's interesting how you claim it's harder for Scholars to go in with no knowledge, compared to a White Mage.

Adloquium pre-applied, even with full HP, is never a waste. While 300 potency worth of healing goes to waste, 300 potency worth of shielding (900 on a crit) will always have some use. It's rarely the case that all 300 potency is a waste: There's always some fluff damage being dealt while casting. If some big hits come in and you're unprepared, a Lustrate is always the quickest way to patch up someone before the tank drops dead. Even without knowledge, the scholar kit helps you prepare regardless, although it may or may not be MP inefficient. But MP efficiency is rarely an issue for scholars.

So about the white mage going into unknown fights? While they can stoneskin endlessly, it's nowhere as fast or mp efficient. When learning fights, MP burn is much higher than when you are familiar with the fight. This will lead to complications that a scholar have more means to recover with.

Lastly: Scholar single target healing potency is actually not that much lower than a White Mage's. Cure II has 650 potency, Physick has 400. What is tend to be forgotten is that a fairy has 300 potency as well. Every 6 seconds a White Mage can recover 1950 potency worth on one target while a Scholar, with fairy, recovers 1800 potency worth as well. Assuming Regen is applied beforehand it's 2250 potency against 1800. If adloquium weaved with physick: 1800 potency shifts towards 1600 recovered with 600 shielding or 1700 recovered with 300. Plenty of other factors too: divine seal, Rouse, crits, weaving lustrates, possible whispering dawn, possible fey illumination and so on. But application of these are really inconsistent. Back to raw potency: Scholars are nowhere as far behind as the player base like to believe.

tldr; Scholar has more tools to perform snap recovery and has (near) equal single target healing throughout the encounter.

Edit: Had Cure II potency summed up incorrectly

Lots of valid points, but in fights where there is aoe damage the WHM can save the day more easily than a SCH.
SCH can deal with aoes very well when you are expecting them, but a WHM can be be "crap *party is down to 25%" C3 "all sorted" in one cast
However single target recover "which rarely happens due to fey always healing" SCH is king

tl;dr
take a SCH+WHM into new content and you will be fine.

With regards to "Which job needs to know the fight more", I'll leave the below extremely simple example:

SCH : I dunno the fight, thus I adlo alot:
1) Tank is mostly topped up, and has a high chance of having adlo prepped for big hits due to constant stream of adlos.
2) SCH mana goes down the drain.

WHM : I dunno the fight, thus I Cure II alot:
1) Tank is mostly topped up, but has no mitigation prepped for big hits, may just outright die from 100% from big hits.
2) WHM mana goes down the drain.

WHM : Well shit...guess I'll stonekin more then:
1) Stoneskin on a 9k hp tank = 1620 HP, and has a 3 sec cast time compared to 2 sec of Cure spells, your constant stream of Stoneskins will not outheal the damage from the boss, yeah sure you'll probably have stoneskin prepped for big hits, but what's the point of stoneskin if the tank is at 60% hp when the big hit hits.
2) WHM mana goes down the drain.

I haven't even touch the 3 "oopsie daisy" mistake corrector a SCH generally has every minute compared to the single "oopsie daisy" mistake corrector a WHM has every 5 minutes.

I'd say the casf timer on stoneskin is a bit long. But, aside from that, I don't believe Scholar has a real advantage of WHM overall. They're both required in many different situations.

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Originally Posted by Able

I'd say the casf timer on stoneskin is a bit long. But, aside from that, I don't believe Scholar has a real advantage of WHM overall. They're both required in many different situations.

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I think this thread has (hopefully) moved away from the question of one class being categorically better and more into theorycraft.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

300 potency worth of shielding (900 on a crit)

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Pardon for the off topicness, I've been meaning to ask this randomly for a while. The tool tip states that if Adlo crits, it doubles the nullification instead, thus implying 600 potency shielding.

Yet, I see this statement about shields being 900 potency thrown around so much it makes me wonder if I'm going crazy >.>;

Unless the tool tip is wrong and it's actually 300 + 300 * 2 = 900? @.@ Please let me know if I'm going insane or not. Thank ya.

@ Ghishlain

When you crit, the value you heal for/damage you deal is 1.5x
Thus when you crit an adlo, the original potency is 300, thus critical potency is 450.
Now the unique skill property where it states "doubles shield when crit" comes into play : the 450 potency is doubled, becoming 900 potency.

Hope this is clear enough :)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Snip

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DreamWeaver explained it, I'd just like to add some more off-topicness:

A lot of scholars use a crit build, while on the other hand crit isn't as popular for White Mages. 20% crit on a White Mage would mean 10% more HP recovered on average. For example: you cast 100 Cures, with 20% crit that means 20 will cure for 50% more: 80 spells for 100% and 20 spells for 150% potency. Effectively this is equal to 10% more HP recovered on average due to crits. For scholars, it's different. With Adloquium you get 300% worth of shielding and 150% worth of healing, rather than just the regular 50% increase. On average this is 225% worth of potency on a crit. With the same numbers, the increased potency from crits is 25% (combined healing/shielding). This makes crit far more valuable for scholars than it is for White Mage.

Random rambling about critical adlos while we're at it, as a WHM I would love to see a difference in status buff icon for normal adlo and critical adlo, this is mostly due to if both healers are prepping for a huge hit with stoneskin/adlo, a critical adlo can pretty much nullify the damage from the big hit entirely, as a SCH if I see a critical adlo, I won't even bother pre-casting a Physick.

As a WHM however, it's quite difficult to know if it was a critical adlo or not, thus there have been times where I precast my Cure just to heal an amazing 50 points worth of damage, and my scholar friend will go "yep Crit adlo", and I'll think deep down in my heart "You could have told me sooner...".

Random rambling finished :)

Well, we just have to agree to disagree then. I know lustrate is being brought up all the time but you do use it at the cost of something else. And seriously? Does it matter if Medica II is up a second before or after an AoE? Does it matter if SS or Succor is up a second before or after an AoE? This is pretty much the point I am trying to make. I never said that WHM does NOT need to know the fight at all. I am still claiming that the SCHs main tools totally lose their merit if the SCH doesn't know the fight while the WHM can still catch up.

Anyway, I think everyone has some good points in this discussion :)
To get back to the whole WHM vs SCH debate, what do you think about this?

Steady, bread and butter Healing: Both.
Both jobs have no issues keeping a tank alive. WHM has to be a bit more careful with GDC and spell cast times while the SCH gets the fairy backup. Regen helps but reaction time of the fairy is instant compared to lag issues a WHM might have to deal with. Still no biggie.

Tank and spank: SCH.
WHM is capable, but SCH will put out more HPS with a macro'd fairy. Scholars with a macro'd fairy seem to be better at single target healing using basic spells by about 15% without factoring in CDs; however, I'm inclined to believe that they would still come out ahead their own CDs. This drops down to a 10% bonus during high throughput times, but again - without CDs and highly dependent on fight mechanics.

High Movement: easier for SCH.
The fairy is automated. Regen is fantastic. It's roughly equivalent to the best single target cure bomb, instant cast, and costs less mana. The problem is that you have to be very aware of what's going on. You need to move, target, and cast at all the same time. Scholar on the other hand can move and let their fairy do the work.

Predictable Damage: SCH, but just barely.
Both classes can prep for incoming damage. WHM has stoneskin but Stoneskin is available to SCHs, too even though without the passive boost. The SCH shield costs less and is attached to normal healing spells. So a single SCH can pre-stoneskin before the pull or before a planned hit and throw their own shield up for a higher amount of mitigated damage.

Super Long Fights: The SCH has this one hands-down.
They have several mana efficient heals, 3 free heals for 20% HP each every minute, the fairy provides free heals, their procs are frequent, and Aetherflow accounts for ~1.6% of their total mana every 5 seconds (20% every minute). They also have more free heals, or energy drain for more mana returns. This is a huge benefit. Compare this to a WHM's refresh which gives ~.915% every 5 seconds (~33% every 3 minutes).

Heavy Burst Healing: WHMs outclasses by far
If you have someone dipping low as part of a fight mechanic, movement, or just general slip-up then you're going to want a WHM in your party. They have the highest HPS, and it's much easier to control the healing when they can turret.

Burst AOE damage - selected area: WHM.
No question - more bursty (but very MP intense) tools in the WHMs box.

Burst AOE damage - entire party/raid: WHM.
Better range on WHMs Medica II - Cure 3 is even after the change still somewhat situational

Continuous lower AOE damage - stacked: SCH.
Sacred soil for an immediate 10% bonus, and the fairy's aoe healing for tight groups make SCH the premier stacked healer. If Regen is not enough a WHM is forced to use high MP AoE spells.

Continuous AOE damage - staggered: WHM.
This was too close to call. Both have AOE abilities. The SCH has more mana, and more instants to handle multiple scenarios. The fairy can also help by smart healing the raid.

Rollercoaster fights (intense healing, no/low healing, repeat) WHM.
The WHM is just better suited to respond to intense healing requirements. The scholar is still usable, but they'll burn more mana and GCDs doing it - especially when it comes to AOE.

Low healing required - DPS race: SCH, hands down.
The WHM has more burst damage, but the spells are too mana intensive. SCH can dot up, throw up cleric stance to have the dots do more damage, and then take it back down when it's time to heal. They can also swap to the utility fairy which will boost the skill/spell speed of actual DPS classes.

Emergency - someone screwed up - save the day spells: WHM, without a doubt
With an instant full 100% heal, 30% + healing CD, and they come with the possibility of an instant cure 2 (~40% health) or cure 3. A SCH isn't bad in their own right. They have their own version of (20% health, 3x a minute), but that's it. And it comes at the cost of other abilities such as energy drain or sacred soil. Ones you burned through all three and have to wait for the CD you are a sitting duck compared to the WHM.

Passive utility: Both.
WHM is better for high end content where you don't want to give up healing for protective utility. SCH is better for content where healing is less important, but you'll want to down the boss more quickly. You'll still want both in your group. Whitemage for the protect magic resistance buff (it's just physical when going cross class), and SCH for the heroism/bloodlust fairy.

Farmed fights: SCH.
SCH can put out more damage, provide more utility when incoming damage is less of a concern, and makes for a better hybrid.

Fights with enmity wipes: WHM.
The fairy can pull hate too quickly sometimes. It's not a big issue, but WHMs get Shroud of Saints. Doesn't really matter that much, though.

I'm sure we can quibble on some of the points that may sway this one way or another. This is especially true for specific fights but they're close enough that it really doesn't matter in light parties and in 8x you would want one of both ideally.

So, lets not forget the great buffs the SCH fairies bring to the mix on top of no lag, no mp, constant healing
Not every class needs to be equally good at the same things...and in the end it comes down to the party you are in.

Very quick points:

- Yes, precasting matters.
- WHM faces significantly more challenges with enmity than the SCH and the fairy do. Shroud is neat when it's available, but SCHs can usually avoid enmity issues altogether thanks to how their mechanics work. This isn't a criticism of WHM; I actually think it's one of the features of WHM gameplay that keeps the job interesting.

I'm not sure how that wall-of-text contributed at all of what has been posted on the previous 11 pages

@Dreamweaver + Lyrica

Thanks for the responses. It actually dawned upon me this morning while I was getting ready for work that Critting was a 1.5x multiplier which then I face palmed myself for forgetting that, lol.

Either way, thank you for the clarity / math things, I'm a huge theorycraft buff, just hard to keep track of every little detail sometimes. :)

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I'm not sure how that wall-of-text contributed at all of what has been posted on the previous 11 pages

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Maybe nothing but since this whole discussion about WHM vs SCH has been around since release of the game and because I have been discussing this topic since forever I felt like reposting my thoughts on it. Fair enough? After all that's what this whole thread was about.
I am also not sure what you contributed by taking the time to take a pointless jab instead of answering the thing you obviously totally ignored:

Does it matter if Medica II is up a second before or after an AoE? Does it matter if SS or Succor is up a second before or after an AoE? This is pretty much the point I am trying to make. I never said that WHM does NOT need to know the fight at all. I am still claiming that the SCHs main tools totally lose their merit if the SCH doesn't know the fight while the WHM can still catch up.

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

Does it matter if Medica II is up a second before or after an AoE? Does it matter if SS or Succor is up a second before or after an AoE? This is pretty much the point I am trying to make. I never said that WHM does NOT need to know the fight at all. I am still claiming that the SCHs main tools totally lose their merit if the SCH doesn't know the fight while the WHM can still catch up.

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Well since you reignited the discussion about your statements:

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I was trying to say is that it's harder for a SCH to go into an unknown fight

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That single opening line implies your original message, as well as this message, that scholars have it harder than white mages for unknown content. According to you anyway.

And yes, it actually does matter for Medica II being up before or after an AoE and a Succor before or after an AoE. It has already been established that White Mages are more prone to MP issues than Scholars, thus it leads to the following:
Medica II being casted before damage taken is pure waste: 200 potency on 8 players and any potential pets (minor factor, but pets do die from AoE too). The healing effect after application has a total potency of 500 for each target hit. For every 3 seconds it doesn't heal, because the AoE has not occurred yet, is another 50 potency wasted on each target Medica II applied to. Once AoE happens, another AoE healing is required. The remaining Medica II ticks (maximum of 500 potency total) will not top anyone off. This will lead to an MP waste of 372 or 452, depending on which AoE healing would have been obsolete. Either way: It's a gigantic waste of MP.
Succor, on the other hand, is rarely a waste. Even applied before AoE, 150 potency worth of healing goes to waste, but 150 potency (450 on a crit) worth of shielding is ready for the AoE then. If it's applied after an AoE, it depends on the content, but the healing is not wasted in this case and the shield may or may not be wasted. In FCOB content, post-AoE succors are rarely a waste. Only exception would be FCOB Turn 2 on certain phases, I guess. For casual or "casual made" content, it's not even necessary to apply a succor before or after an AoE any more.

And yes, it also matters whether Stoneskin is up before or after an AoE. Applying stoneskin on everyone before an AoE is rarely possible. It takes 20-25s (depending on spell speed) to apply stoneskin on all 8 party members. 16-18s if you decide to ignore the tanks. That's a rather large window and it'll either:
1) Knock off or soften up the stoneskin before AoE happened on those who you cast it on first
2) All healing will be thrown into the Scholar's lap because you (the white mage) is too busy casting stoneskins left and right

If you also throw in the "unknown" factor you seem to like so much, this will create a third issue:
3) Without knowledge of the encounter, stoneskinning entire parties for AoE is not feasible.

In another post you mentioned Lustrate comes at a cost, both yes and no. Yes, because aetherflow stacks can be considered as MP as Energy Drain equals to 266 MP. No, because Aetherflow itself has no cost in the first place. It's an alternative resource that white mage has no access to. In your last post, you mentioned scholars "lose their main tools to totally lose their merit". Even if not knowing the fight, scholars can perfectly get away with doing their usual routine as offDPSing, if that's what you're talking about. Why? Lustrate, that's why. Ran out of stacks? Then stay out of cleric's still the stacks are back up. Knowing the fight has nothing to do with this, it's all about personal ability to make decisions whether you can be in Cleric's Stance or focus on healing. Oh, white mages can catch up? Since you're so fond about the "unknown fight" concept, white mages being late on healing will result to dead tanks, which will very likely lead to wipes. Of course, unless the other healer manages to patch things up. Hello Lustrate!

There's also another issue about "going into unknown fights". How often does this actually happen? With exception of a handful of players who charge in guns blazing the moment new endgame content is released, everyone else will most likely make use of guides or observations made from other people streaming. Meaning: There's always a source for information floating around the internet for you to use. A fight isn't "unknown" for long either, even without any external sources or explained to you by fellow raid members. "Lack of experience", however, is a whole different story.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Poor Eos collects dust 95% of the time at end-game, only let out of her cage once in a while.

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Eos has her place, I can pull 150dps + 1000hps on phase 1 of turn 13 using her.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Medica II being casted before damage taken is pure waste: 200 potency on 8 players and any potential pets (minor factor, but pets do die from AoE too). The healing effect after application has a total potency of 500 for each target hit.

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Again, never discount something. I intentionally precast medica II before megaflare on phase 2 as whm as I can free up an additional GCD for a cure either on the MT or someone that might still be low from orbs or whatnot. The initial efficiency loss is made up by typically not needing a cure III for rage.

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Originally Posted by Slib

Anyway, noone here has convinced me that White Mage is fine.

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And I suspect it'd take a shotgun to persuade you any different at this point, you are clearly blind to WHM's strengths, therefore it's pretty pointless trying to debate the issue with you.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Again, never discount something. I intentionally precast medica II before megaflare on phase 2 as whm as I can free up an additional GCD for a cure either on the MT or someone that might still be low from orbs or whatnot. The initial efficiency loss is made up by typically not needing a cure III for rage.

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Before I go into this, I assume you're referring to FCOB Turn 4 (Turn 13). Could you specify the exact timing? When you mention "Before mega flare", I'm understanding that as either: After Rage or right before Mega flare.