Dragoon, under the shadow of Ninja

the first 3 points indeed are predictable most of the time but the last is real why would you lol at it?

I would not go as far to say that Nin can be unforgiving too.
Mundras if messed up are either the player, or if you do get lag sometimes after a keypress and it does not register or appear to the player will reapply same action because of it and therefore mundra gets messed up. So it's kind of a yes and no situation for that part.
Also if as dragoon you are not in the certain position, dps loss is far more noticeable. Dancing Edge is pretty much the only attack that is positional for Nin.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Dancing Edge is pretty much the only attack that is positional for Nin.

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It's not. Nothing but a mistake on English client tooltip. Only Trick Attack and Sneak Attack are positional.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

-You can predict that

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Nope, you can't always predict that. There are tanks that like to run circles around bosses. And there are encounters that require tanks to move the boss in reaction to certain actions that are not on a fixed pattern (e.g. Melusine fight when the ground segment of the tank lights up and he moves out of it).

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

-It's someone's fault, but you can be watching hate meters too.

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Yeah, cause aside from watching for encounter mechanics, my own rotation, my positioning, the tank's positioning and his probable "always predictable" movements and my own hate meter, I have plenty of time not only to watch for the hate meters of other players, but also for their positioning, so when the mobs turns around, I also know which direction it will turn and move, so I can hit my HT and keep my rotation without any delay. Pretty sure that's an easy task to accomplish.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

-You're worried about DPS at this point?

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I'm actually not worried, but someone boldly stated that missing a positional is always the Dragoons fault. Just listing examples where it's not the DRG's fault.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

-"unpredictable" lol

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Not all bosses have strictly timed patterns and even if some actions are predictable, you can't always adjust your rotation not to lose DPS, as your rotation dictates when to refesh HT or ID for optimum DPS. E.g. Melusine turning around for fireballs. Of course you could hold hold HT or ID until she's done with it, but holding those skills back is also a DPS loss over re-applying them at the correct timing.

In all honesty this thread should be called Dragoon, under the shadow of Monk. Oh crap now under the shadow of both monk and ninja but most didn't realize it until ninja came out.
Yes dragoons need a buff but this really has nothing to do with how ninja is its been this way since the warrior and monk buffs and hell most statics I've seen asked why they ran a monk/drg instead of double monks and the usual answer was gear drops. Ninja didn't really cause the problem they just made it more apparent

So are u saying lag and the slugish keys of mudra is players control? Sometimes the mudra doesnt register. Get over yourself.

Don't know if this was touched on at all, I haven't read all the pages, but has anyone discussed TP costs? I don't want to get too in-depth but just looking over skills DRG takes a much larger hit when it comes to TP cost. Yes they get that extra TP from Invigorate but I don't know how well that actually makes up for it.

I don't have a DRG to 50 so I can't say for sure but it seems to me when the potency of most of their attacks (not counting their basic 1-2-3 combo) is lower than that of NIN's but also costs more TP to use that seems like it would be a loss. I declared NIN as an alt for FCOB and previously had MNK as mine. MNK blows through TP but on my NIN I feel like I could just DPS for days. Anyone care to weigh in on this? DRG's TP cost to DPS ratio too high?

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

Don't know if this was touched on at all, I haven't read all the pages, but has anyone discussed TP costs? I don't want to get too in-depth but just looking over skills DRG takes a much larger hit when it comes to TP cost. Yes they get that extra TP from Invigorate but I don't know how well that actually makes up for it.

I don't have a DRG to 50 so I can't say for sure but it seems to me when the potency of most of their attacks (not counting their basic 1-2-3 combo) is lower than that of NIN's but also costs more TP to use that seems like it would be a loss. I declared NIN as an alt for FCOB and previously had MNK as mine. MNK blows through TP but on my NIN I feel like I could just DPS for days. Anyone care to weigh in on this? DRG's TP cost to DPS ratio too high?

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Dragoon's really don't have a problem with TP, that extra 100 TP from their trait really helps on that matter even if their skills cost 10 TP more then a Monk or Ninja, Also ninja and monk both get a Skill Speed buff where as dragoon doesn't. I can go though T8 spamming my WS as fast as i could, but i have never had a problem with TP.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

Of course it's my fault, as I can easily anticipate things such as:

- the tank suddenly turning the boss
- tank losing aggro to someone so that the boss turns around
- tank dying so that the boss turns around
- bosses turning around for certain skills in a unpredictable pattern

Guess I just need to dust of that crystal ball to become a better DRG such as you are.

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Your sarcasm is unjustified, your points hold no merit at all. Yes if a tank turns the boss you lose dps, so would a mnk, and that's the tank's fault. Tank losing agro? Very rarely is that not a sign of a bad tank. Tank dying? If the fight matters at all then there's a very good chance nothing you do matters at that point. As for "bosses turning around...in a unpredictable pattern"? This game just simply doesn't have that.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Your sarcasm is unjustified, your points hold no merit at all. Yes if a tank turns the boss you lose dps, so would a mnk, and that's the tank's fault. Tank losing agro? Very rarely is that not a sign of a bad tank. Tank dying? If the fight matters at all then there's a very good chance nothing you do matters at that point. As for "bosses turning around...in a unpredictable pattern"? This game just simply doesn't have that.

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Mnk looses dps when the boss is turned by the tank, but depending where the drg is at in their rotation the mnk does not loose the same amount of dps that the drg us going to loose.

I don't know why people think that the boss being turned a critical points for drg is comparable to mnk.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Your sarcasm is unjustified, your points hold no merit at all. Yes if a tank turns the boss you lose dps, so would a mnk, and that's the tank's fault. Tank losing agro? Very rarely is that not a sign of a bad tank. Tank dying? If the fight matters at all then there's a very good chance nothing you do matters at that point. As for "bosses turning around...in a unpredictable pattern"? This game just simply doesn't have that.

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I would really appreciate if you at least tried to inform yourself what the initial discussion was all about prior to giving answers like this.

Yes, a Monk does also lose DPS if the tank turns the mob around, but the discussion was Ninja (doesn't have mandatory positionals to begin with, so it really doesn't matter which direction he is attacking from) vs. DRG ... so where does that Monk argument fall into place? I mean, even the thread's title has it. This thread is not about Monks.

And the discussion was also not about how good or bad a tank may be ... it was about the assumption that not hitting as positional is 100% the DRG's own fault, so I brought up some examples where it's not the DRG's fault (as you have already admitted yourself, it may for example be the tank's fault, so I would say, you actually do give my points some merit).

As for the tank dying scenario, in a 8 man raid scenario a dead tank doesn't automatically equal a wipe, as the OT can often fill in until the situation is recovered. Whether that's actually the case or not doesn't really matter, as my point still holds true, that not hitting a positional in this scenario is not the DRG's own fault.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

As for "bosses turning around...in a unpredictable pattern"? This game just simply doesn't have that.

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Then we may be playing different games, e.g. in the last boss encounter in Quarn HM the boss will cast "Light of Anathema" on random players in a more or less non-predicatable pattern, unless you have some magic way to tell exactly when the boss is going to use this skill and whom he will be targetting.

And even in fights with predictable patterns, if your rotation dicates to refresh either HT or ID just when the boss is about to to some of the predictable turns, you are left with three options:

- hit HT or ID regardless and take the risk of not hitting the positionals (thus messing up your rotation and forcing you to redo the skill --> huge DPS loss)
- delay your application of HT/ID until the boss is facing the tank again (again a DPS loss)
- use filler attacks until the boss is facing the tank again (DPS loss again)

So there are three ways to lose DPS, none of which are the DRG's fault.

And there are also fights where bosses need to be moved by a tank in non-predictable ways. Examples (this list is not complete):

- Melusine needs to be moved out of glowing circle segments (and there doesn't seem to be a fixed pattern for which segment will light up next, thus the required tank/boss movement is not exactly 'predictable')
- last boss Quarn HM, tank needs to move boss a lot and there's usually more than one safe spot the tank may move to ... unless you are communicating with the tank (which rarely happens in roulette groups), there's no way to predict the tanks's movement and therefore the boss' movement as well

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

Then we may be playing different games, e.g. in the last boss encounter in Quarn HM the boss will cast "Light of Anathema" on random players in a more or less non-predicatable pattern, unless you have some magic way to tell exactly when the boss is going to use this skill and whom he will be targetting.

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- Melusine needs to be moved out of glowing circle segments (and there doesn't seem to be a fixed pattern for which segment will light up next, thus the required tank/boss movement is not exactly 'predictable')
- last boss Quarn HM, tank needs to move boss a lot and there's usually more than one safe spot the tank may move to ... unless you are communicating with the tank (which rarely happens in roulette groups), there's no way to predict the tanks's movement and therefore the boss' movement as well

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Refresh early if your tank is so awful you can't tell which way they're going to go.

Targets may be random but you can use your own judgment. Qarn HM boss (or Titan Landslide for that matter) will only target a random player, correct? So if you need to refresh HT and everyone else is north-ish or south-ish, you have a pretty good idea of where to go when he would start turning. You do know his rotation right? No? Oh, that's your problem then.

This is a big reason why people stack for Landslide/Weight on Titan and many many other bosses. Not just for raid simplicity but for the sake of your damage.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Refresh early if your tank is so awful you can't tell which way they're going to go.

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Which again is a DPS loss (over being able to maintain the optimal rotation). And just to be clear, it's not "my tank" at all, as I don't always bring my personal tank buddy to queue up for dungeon roulettes.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Targets may be random but you can use your own judgment. Qarn HM boss (or Titan Landslide for that matter) will only target a random player, correct? So if you need to refresh HT and everyone else is north-ish or south-ish, you have a pretty good idea of where to go when he would start turning. You do know his rotation right? No? Oh, that's your problem then.

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Yeah, cause in every random party during a dungeon roulette each and everyone stacks up with the DRG instead of being all over the place (like healers and ranged DDs usually do in there). And yes, I do know Titan's rotation, that's why I didn't list Titan to begin with.

I will always prefer a Monk + Dragoon over a Ninja for Melee composition in my groups, I find Dragoons & Monks to be more reliable than a Ninja (Longer time to get used to the class) and I usually just block off the Ninja slot on party finder because the Dragoon buff to Bard damage, and Dragoon + Monk melee damage is fine and not harming anyone in my groups.
This is from a Tank POV btw.

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Originally Posted by Lemage

I will always prefer a Monk + Dragoon over a Ninja for Melee composition in my groups, I find Dragoons & Monks to be more reliable than a Ninja (Longer time to get used to the class) and I usually just block off the Ninja slot on party finder because the Dragoon buff to Bard damage, and Dragoon + Monk melee damage is fine and not harming anyone in my groups.
This is from a Tank POV btw.

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Honestly I'd do the same but then you kind of remember "Trick Attack exists" and that it's a buff to EVERYONE's dmg, not just a Dragoon and a Bard but to the casters, monks, tanks and the healers if they go Cleric Stance.
Also can't forget about Dancing Edge which is an increase in damage to Ninja's, Paladin's and Warrior's (Though arguably in the perfect world the Warrior should be applying this with maim and the Ninja should be doing Aeolian Edge instead.)

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Originally Posted by Lemage

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Considering trick attack, and the liability of some encounters just not cooperating with the DRG (whether it be magic damage or the bosses turning around), a NIN provides much better utility, consistency and reliability than a DRG. You also mentioned your personal experience with them being more reliable (since they've been out longer)...so now you're introducing individual player skill which doesn't really hold much water in comparisons.

As a bard, I am also somewhat aggravated by the lack of good DRG players that cannot apply do their full impulse drive combo on the kraken... Something something about running like a headless chicken to hit a tentacle or something...

And to add onto your examples;
>If you stack on Qarn (Heroic)'s final boss, it still doesn't change the fact that it randomly picks out a player. If you stack on the DRG, you'd still need to run behind him to get a back-hit, assuming the doesn't immediately turn around. There's also the factor of standing in that position is safe at all with the mummies appearing.

And even if everything goes fine and dandy, you have a DRG that needs to jump through all these hoops, to deal relatively the same dps (if not less) than a NIN, while lacking the same survivability at the abundance of magic AoE in boss encounters (esp final coil) and arguably less utility...it just doesn't add up right.