Undercut Hell

http://puu.sh/cDWn0/3e2723b8ab.jpg

The trololol is strong with those.

Greetz,
Mörser out

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Originally Posted by DenzelTaru

Undercutting by massive ammounts is really stupid guys why do you do it.. it infuriates me and I am sure alot of crafters agree.

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You are a margin trader - you trade relatively small amount of items with high margin and it's understandable that you become upset when someone undercut you heavily, eating away your margin.
The problem here is that there are also a volume traders and for them volume is important and for this they a) need a better demand, that achieved at lower price and b) want to get into a better selling position on a market to ensure that all of their volume will sell. Undercutting helps with both at once.

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Originally Posted by Amenian

Large undercuts skip over this value and over time end up lowering the maximum fair market price. Lower it far enough and those people responsible for supplying the item will leave the market and you've created a scarcity. So now, not only have you made the economy less over all, which hurts everybody, but you've also made it harder to find those items you are looking for.

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Economy is cyclical. Lower price spurs a much higher demand - thus by proxy a much higher demand in components. What is bad for crafters (working at breakeven prices) is good for consumers and gatherers (as high demand in craft leads to high demand in components thus price for them picks up). And vice versa - high prices means low demand and prices for components become depressed.

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Originally Posted by Relaeh

Everyone undercuts b/c their dumb and do not know the meaning of the word patience...you playing an mmo but are in a hurry.

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I usually craft one day inventory of food and want to sell it in one day. For this price is manipulated so 80% of inventory could be sold in one day, and if there is oversupply or lack of demand - price is undercutted easily to prevent building up of inventory.
And if there is too much of a price war, I just leave this particular item market for several days as price will come back from breakeven spot eventually, no one want to work without profit for a prolonged period of time.

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Originally Posted by Canopia

If you want to undercut a product just do it by smaller increments, maybe 1-3% of the previous value. So you can get yours on top and possibly keep the value of the item in question.

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If you want demand to really picks up, undercutting by 1-3% will do nothing.

So your mad because other players won't collude with you? Perhaps the are not interested in the collision? If one guy posting under your cost is crashing the market, them perhaps it's not worth that amount? Some to Market pvp.

Usually I price at what will sell it faster than what its on the boards for, regardless of history and ethics or morals.

For example... a while back Heavens Eye Materia II were selling for 5k on Goblin... I sold all of mine for 4795. 205 gil cheaper. I don't really care about how much gil I lost because I put no investment into getting these materia. Is that considered undercutting? sure. Do I care what someone else sitting on the MB all day trying to "play the market" thinks? Not at all. Should I care? Its a video game auction hall... so no.

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Originally Posted by Canopia

I just wish people wouldnt undercut by such large numbers and severely driving the prices down.

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Also said by Microsoft after the Sony Playstation 4 press event.

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Originally Posted by DenzelTaru

and I am not interested in any trolly comments they won't be read

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How do you know it's trolly when you won't be reading them? xD

On a more serious note, undercuts happen. The huge undercuts are often people who just don't have a clue. Like others said, buy it, resell it. Another important thing, some crafters like to put new crafts on MB asap. However, a week later mats can drop as far as (or even more) 30% <--- automatic undercut incoming.

I also think some crafters just ask rediculous prices. I am one of those people who will undercut when someone is trying to make a billion % profit. That to me is economy breaking since I'd have to wait a year until the first one up there sells.. I just check what the mats go for and try to make a fair price for both myself and the buyer.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

How do you know it's trolly when you won't be reading them? xD

On a more serious note, undercuts happen. The huge undercuts are often people who just don't have a clue. Like others said, buy it, resell it. Another important thing, some crafters like to put new crafts on MB asap. However, a week later mats can drop as far as (or even more) 30% <--- automatic undercut incoming.

I also think some crafters just ask rediculous prices. I am one of those people who will undercut when someone is trying to make a billion % profit. That to me is economy breaking since I'd have to wait a year until the first one up there sells.. I just check what the mats go for and try to make a fair price for both myself and the buyer.

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that sounds realistic. Unfrotunately not a lot of people actually do that even though it is the right thing to do.

Self-Entitled Armchair Economists: The Thread

you undercut someone else so you can sell yours faster so they did it back you can play that game all day long how about you try and match the lowest price instead of undercutting in the first place... its sitting in my inventory and you deliberately undercut me i will slash them prices because i don't care i am clearing out space.. i try to always match lowest, then they undercut and the war begins... to be honest it should be like ffxi was and have blind bidding and if they bid high enough they got the prize

undercutting by 1 gil or 500k is no different to me anything i truely make i farm all the stuff myself so really 10 gil is profit to me

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Originally Posted by dcdistro

to be honest it should be like ffxi was and have blind bidding and if they bid high enough they got the prize

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This is not a real solution. In XI, I always set my prices considerably lower that the last sold prices. Mine would sell first & I'd pay lower listing fees. If a buyer guessed correctly then there's clear proof the rest were overcharging.

Slowly but surely, we'll all lose our minds.

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Originally Posted by dcdistro

i try to always match lowest, then they undercut and the war begins... to be honest it should be like ffxi was and have blind bidding and if they bid high enough they got the prize

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Price war is pretty much a normal thing. It serves several purposes - eliminate stupid people who can't stop once being provoked into price war, keep arrogant people from "easy to do" price manipulation, especially in illiquid markets, drives prices down to supply-demand-component supply equilibrium of decent but still reasonable margins.

Market structure in FF14 is much better than it was in FF11, it punishes hard for arrogance and simple manipulation techniques. FF11 was only better because 80% of the game depends on market and it was basically "pay2win" game - whether you have a lot of gil to buy ridiculous amounts of best for everything sets of equip, or you have not and be a gimp.

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Originally Posted by dcdistro

..........undercutting by 1 gil or 500k is no different to me anything i truely make i farm all the stuff myself so really 10 gil is profit to me

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Please come to my server so I can buy your stuff and resell.......I'm serious......

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Originally Posted by dcdistro

you undercut someone else so you can sell yours faster so they did it back you can play that game all day long how about you try and match the lowest price instead of undercutting in the first place... its sitting in my inventory and you deliberately undercut me i will slash them prices because i don't care i am clearing out space.. i try to always match lowest, then they undercut and the war begins... to be honest it should be like ffxi was and have blind bidding and if they bid high enough they got the prize

undercutting by 1 gil or 500k is no different to me anything i truely make i farm all the stuff myself so really 10 gil is profit to me

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I do that also, I'll see item is 8k and so I'll put it to 8k and take off later on i'll check and notice they price cut me for 500-1000 so I adjust my price from 8k to 1,500 cause I don't care but they probably will.

I don't craft anymore. Too much to keep up with. I do however gather and sell the mats mainly clusters, crystals and shards. I don't overprice because I don't spend gil to get them but I do invest some time. I WILL UNDERCUT the feet from under anyone dumb enough to try and think they can "buy me out and sell" for double or triple what I put them up for originally. Want to see some happy crafters? Screw with me. Clusters will go for a gil a piece. I got nothing but time.

When I lower prices on the market, I take into consideration how much the item is selling for. If its a million gil item, 1 gil increments is not going to go well. 10,000 gil increments would be about right. But for something that costs 50,000 gil, dropping the price around 1,000 sounds reasonable.

Always check the sell history though to see if the current prices are too over priced.

I under cut ppl I hate it when some one sell an low lv item that take less than 10 min to make and charge like 25k for one piece of lv 20 gear I charge what is fair so I charged 6k or less depending what it is like aldgoat skins and leather or like ice shards I thought I saw at over 64k a stack so ya id under cut like hell id charge 1k per stack and and id sell 64 stack and still make close to that of one and id sell out and to be honest to all you ppl who cry about under cutting it is called fierce competition it happens in real life it like trying to sell a beene baby since when they came out they were a lot on the resale and years later they are next to nothing another example pc bk in 99 vs 2015

There are two main types of items: high volume low margin, low volume high margin. Most crafters prefer the high margin items. The problem is, some people have all day to lower prices by 1 gil back and forth. Those people will make your life miserable if you don't have the same amount of time to watch the mb all day. This could be avoided by adding a 1% tax your retainer charges to the asking amount when you list/change prices. If you are selling a 3 million item, and it costs you 30k to lower the price by 1 gil you will be less inclined to spend all day undercutting each other by 1 gil.

I guess everyone is a merchant in Ul'dah?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I guess everyone is a merchant in Ul'dah?

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Not even, those Ul'dahn merchants are babies compared to the ruthlessness of the MB.

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Originally Posted by dragorian

post #97

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So true.

I try pretty hard to maintain some sort of "sportsmanlike conduct", but sometimes I can't help but think, "Ok, deeznutz wants to sell (insert lvl 15 item that takes 5 minutes to make) for (insert price only affordable buy using rtms)......IIIIIIII think I'm gonna NOT charge that".

So ya, being competitive and irresponsible are two different things imo.

Price war keeps the market healthy,and doubles as a profit for indirectly getting rid of those RMT imo.

Tell me, How does selling items for 1.5kk make any sense when the mats it self cost over 2kk? :)

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

Tell me, How does selling items for 1.5kk make any sense when the mats it self cost over 2kk? :)

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Mats only cost if you buy them from someone else. If you collect them yourself, they are free Gil wise.

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Originally Posted by Moerser

http://puu.sh/cDWn0/3e2723b8ab.jpg

The trololol is strong with those.

Greetz,
Mörser out

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Lol That's what the price for this one item I was trying to sell looks like. 60k all week, doing well so I decide "I'm going to make a few and make some gil" well it eventually dropped to 40k, so I put it for 39,999, someone does 38k, then some idiot decides to be "smart" and put it for 7k, then 7 other people drop it down to 2k -.-

I wish those idiots would realize, dropping it that much might sell theirs faster, but overall it's just screwing everyone else out of time/gil. And to those who use the excuse "it's my item, I'll sell it for whatever", that's a poor excuse, learn to be a team player and undercut correctly, it's not going to kill you to wait a little bit for something to sell for the correct price. All you're doing is killing the economy and making it that much harder to get gil, especially when SE keeps releasing certain things, like housing, that cost in the millions and instead of someone being able to make 60k+ off an item and get closer to obtaining one, you just screwed them out of 40k+ gil because you're in such a rush to sell something and don't give a crap about others, which you know, you should, considering it's a mmo, you know multiplayer.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

.., someone does 38k, then some idiot decides to be "smart" and put it for 7k, then 7 other people drop it down to 2k -.-

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If it is not selling at 2K, it is not worth 2k. If firmly believe it is worth 40K or more, buy up all those 2K or items, you can 40K and get 20 of those, and then you just need to sell one to break even, and then sell another to be ahead 40K and still got 18 more you can do as you like.

If your so confident a item is worth X price feel free to buy up all the massive undercuts and flip them for profit.

The correct price is what it sells at. Don't get mad at others because you failed to accurately guage the demand of a certain item. You made a mistake, move on to something else.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Lol

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Wait what? You're asking people who want to sell their stuff ahead of yours to play FAIR? Gosh, if only actual businesses worked that way. This is a free market. People can sell what they want and how much they want. No one is working together in the market. They all want money and you aren't going to get money by working with merchants unless you are all trying to create a monopoly and share the profits among yourselves. There is no "correct" price, there is no fairness in a free market, and people do not and should not care about other sellers. There are no set rules for the game's free market and anyone who thinks there is or should be is only holding themselves back while everyone else rakes in the gil.

If people want to be stupid with undercutting, let them. They'll be taken advantage of anyway.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

If someone undercuts me by 1 gil repeatedly, I lower the price much more since I dont have time to undercut by 1 gil all day. I only change prices a few times a day

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This logic is slightly flawed.
The logic of others on this thread that "1g undercutters tick me off and I'll undercut by 1kg to 10kg out of pure spite" is hideously flawed.

All that is happening in these cases is that gil is left on the table, i.e., contributed to the buyer (who might be a flipper if you undercut an item by 10% or more, creating a profit opportunity)

It's meaningless to undercut by huge g, thinking you've taught the 1g undercutter (UC) a lesson. Their strategy is to out-update. All you did was to contribute g to the next buyer to show up. I may let UCs go, if it is 1 item. They get a sale, and the 2nd buyer to come along gives me the extra gil on the next sale. Plus 1g UC may resume, and keep the price level higher for a while longer than jumping down to an UCs price level. Other times I continue 1g UC from the lower level. Then at some point I will exit & watch. Sometimes, 'everyone' ends up exiting a market that is pushing below-costs prices. Then I check back, the prices are high again, and I re-enter. Or I simply know from long observation what the multi-month avg price is, & when the current prices go low enough, I snap up everything too low & hold it. Eventually, I can sell for 2-5x my buy-in, depending. Just don't try this without knowing what the long term avg price is, and having patience.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

The correct price is what it sells at. Don't get mad at others because you failed to accurately guage the demand of a certain item. You made a mistake, move on to something else.

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wrong, unless you left a lot unsaid... With 1-time undercutters, the correct price is likely not the 1g they posted a 40Kg item for. In an MMO, 350Kg items just fall into your lap. In an MMO, people get hissy about 1g undercuts and drop the price by 10% 'in retaliation'. Mistakes and massive undersells do not accurately represent current supply or demand. Knowing what the short and long term avg price of an item is will allow you to make a better decision on whether to buy up an undercutter, or in turn, undercut them, since you know that the avg is higher or lower than the current price.

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Originally Posted by Maza

One thing for me is if there are several items up for say 10k and someone puts one up for 9999 I will buy the one below it for 10k.

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Originally Posted by NoF2P

I do that too. 9999 is just an untidy way of saying 10000, so I buy the one that was listed first to be fair to the seller (and because I like round numbers). Undercutting by 1 gil is the market equivalent of a kill steal. If I've made a seller happy then I feel good about it.

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But I undercut by 1g someone who posted at 10001g, or 8001g several times this week alone. Now you just bought from me!

It's all arbitrary. Buy whichever one you want, but don't assume you have exercised some moral principle by buying a particular price level, whether the previous price was 1g higher, 98g higher, or 786g higher. Why not buy the most expensive one on the market? You will engender the greatest happiness and realize the most un-earned self-righteousness and false sense of moral superiority. Win-win!!

This thread is so entertaining!

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

If you undercut me by 1 gil I'm going to drop it 10k til you stop. Put it at the same price if you want but the 1 gil stuff is beyond annoying and I'm not going to stalk the boards to play your 1 gil game.

I never buy th 1 gil undercutters.

OP talks about maintaining the economy. You know when I go to the vending machines down the hall... All of them sell drinks for the same price.

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LOL. Love to find someone who would undercut by 10k every time. At some point I buy the item from them myself, turn around and realize more profit from it than they just did when I bought it.

A vending machine is owned by one guy or company, and he sets ALL the prices on everything in it. The Board is 1000s of people selling the same items at different prices because they each value them differently. The 1g undercutter may value it at 40K less than current market price, but he isn't going to leave 40K on the table if he's smart.

There's lots of talk about supply and demand, and demand at certain prices... blah, blah, blah.

FFXIV MB is not RL. For many items, there are 0 to 4 or 7, or maybe 10 or 15 buyers per day on average. Most every one of these buyers would buy at a huge range. They aren't price sensitive. They don't care about history. They don't wait for a deal. I can show you people who bought VENDOR items at 50-100+ % above vendor price on the MB. Any night for the last two weeks I could grab an SS of that. So the market is more about being the low priced item right when that next buyer comes along, period. Coming in and selling at 30% lower isn't getting a sale any faster, since everyone was really just waiting for that next buyer to show up. (Yes, there are items where there is some price sensitivity, usually because it is high-gil item, or maybe it is a high-volume craft item. But still, it's not like there are hundreds of buyers who will suddenly buy if the price comes in 10% lower, like in RL)

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Scenario 1: You just made an easy 175k, you should be happy

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Agree. Love it when someone contributes 175K to my account.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Scenario 2: you are attributing to the undercutting war just as much as the other guy. Sounds like you should be patient... This will happen with items that have little demand.

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Disagree some. He is only contributing 1g at a time. Others are doing it at 10Kg or more at a time. You just ignored the point he made. If it is something that is selling slowly, then yes, undercutting a lot might find a quick sell/current going price level more-quickly, or may jump well below it. Anyone selling repeatedly in a market needs to learn the avg price level. Then you can 'know' that the 200K price is truly a 175K undervaluation, or not. If 200K is below mat cost, then that is a straight-up gift. Buying it is like buying the raw materials at a bargain. Never complain about that.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Some people take taxes into account when undercutting and want to be the lowest price no matter what nation the buyer is buying from, so 1 gil is not always the most sensible option..

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If the tax so much greater than travel costs, buyer should be travelling to the correct city before buying, or the seller should sell one in each city to grab the sale that way. You should never leave 5K or 10K or 40Kg on the table if sales are quick just to be a whole 5% cheaper than the next higher price (to accommodate the tax difference). And of course, the whole point of the OP is that undercutting the 5% tax-rate each time vs 1g each time is just stupid, because you often aren't just giving a 5% discount to a buyer, but more like 15% or 20% before the next sale actually happens. Of course, at that point, it may be a flipper who sees that they can make 10% to 15% profit.

"Correct Price" A true story.
US chem mfr started selling an item below a German cartel price in Europe, 'violating' the Cartel's territory. They tried to cut him in on the action. He refused. They then thought they could undersell him in US and put him out of business, and sold the item like crazy... all they could make. But really, US chem mfr was just buying from them and then reselling in Europe at his original European undercut price, still making a profit. The thing is that he made money both ways, by under-bidding the Cartel's high price, and by buying up the too-low undercut price, and marking it up.

Moral of the story? FFXIV MB isn't like RL. Tens of buyers who are not very cost-sensitive don't really help set accurate prices. Neither do price-insensitive sellers who just had the item fall into their lap. BUT, you can still buy out gross undercutting and profit from it.

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Originally Posted by DenzelTaru

Undercutting is fine, its how you make your sale, being the top of that list.. but do it by sensible ammounts and stop ruining the economy.

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If you believe in a free market, then you are aware that the economy is self-regulatory. It is impossible to "ruin" it, as any and all extreme fluctuations will correct into stability. What you mean by "ruin" has nothing to do with the economy and everything to do with your profit. I don't blame you for being bitter, but to say the economy is being ruined is patently false.

This thread is full of salty would-be profiteers. Price wars are a part of competition. There is no rule that says someone has to play the "1gil" undercut game with you until a buyer shows up. I'd rather hit a price point where I know there is significant demand and call it a day. Gil/hour is all i care about. Worrying only about profit margin is for rookies. High volume selling is a legitimate and consistent strategy.

Undercutting is fine, its how you make your sale, being the top of that list.. but do it by sensible ammounts and stop ruining the economy.

and I am not interested in any trolly comments they won't be read or responded to, I put this up because I believe its valid and the sensible people here will agree[/QUOTE]
Im glad im not the only one that agrees on this a Blind Auction must be implemented in order for this game to survive. As for you FANBOY's out there im glad half of u were not in Alpha or beta or this game would be even more screwed up.