Why aren't there more tanks in FFXIV?

I don't like to speed run, (I also have a macro made if I do tank to tell the party at the start of every run that I won't speed run. If they don't speak English, then tough luck. I'd rather speak english than try to use google translate to make stupid sentences that make no sense in their native tongue) so I choose to not tank as much as I can. Also, I hate EX Battles and Coils.

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Originally Posted by Mags

"But I've always enjoyed doing roulettes, grouping up with random people and having fun, exploring dungeons, and so forth."

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Makes me wish you were on Famfrit. I'd run with you and enjoy every relaxing, fun minute of it. People need to stop treating MMO's like their full time job and just enjoy the ride.

Because i think the most people dont want to be a 2handed axe wearing tank which can tank on any lvl facerolling,
While Paladin starts being cool at 28, just to suck at 32 again untill 40..

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Originally Posted by Mags

More interesting feedback on the tank shortage. So I am seeing a "tanking is boring" response a bit more. What makes it boring to tank versus DPS or healing? Is the positioning requirements of DPS that much more exciting? Is watching and managing health and status bars more interesting?.

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is easy to see how tank is boring

1- is the rotation

paladin: 1,2,3 , 1,2,3 .....circle for more dmg ....yawn

warrior : 123 for agro 145 for debuff 146 for slashing....and using wrath stacks , more involved

Pld isnt flashy enough, pld need a 3 skill for riot chain >.> , and Warrior is ok....steel cyclone is awesome too bad is rarely used :(

2- Bosses

50% of the bosses is stand there and look pretty , the other half is go there take adds

Tanks usually arent doing the mechanics , only some bosses treat tanks as another party member (leviathan , ramuh are perfect examples )

Coil :
turn 1-2 stand there , 4 pull adds , 5 is the only 1 u have some "fun" , but is still stand there or get adds
Turn 6 (LOS/Super stand there T7 Stand there or take adds if OT , turn 8 stand there and eat mines. , turn 9 is a bit more fun i guess.

solutions : more bosses like leviathan and ramuh , make tanks involved on the main boss mechanic.


On top of that as Dps u can always do better, more gear = better dmg , easy time farming or clearing dungeons ect

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

is easy to see how tank is boring...

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This. I play TOR as my other MMOs and tanking in that is generally quite interesting. I'll have some of the dps mechanics to deal with, some tank specific positioning or big hit so use cd at the right time mechanics and an interesting rotation to go with it to maintain buffs on myself and debunks on the boss. Whoever designed the paladin combat system needs to be spoken to. 7 attacks to use on a regular basis is not enough. Especially when 1 is situational (AoE with marginal single target use) and 2 are only every 25 seconds (I'm not counting stun here).

I see tanks all the time, that said most of them are decked out in i100+. I feel the reason people don't tank in lower level stuff when they already have a decked out character is very simple, they don't need to.

It all stems from Low Level Roulette.
-Low Level Roulette is the only way to get massive exp. bonuses for unleveled classes.
-If all jobs are at level 50 the myth from it can easily be substituted or done with another job because...
-Low level tanking sucks and...
-Low level healing gives just as fast queue times with literally less than half the effort you have to put into it.

It's probably also why you hear so many "tank horror stories". Since most of the tanks you're getting in low level dungeons will probably be new players most of the time.

I'm not a tank main, but tank sometimes. For me coming from WoW. I miss the mobile style tank where you can aoe/even if it doesn't do much dmg without a care in the world, feeling.

Sure I can do flash, but it just doesn't feel the same. That and in this game you have to "Plant" yourself to a spot.... which takes away some fun. Since certain classes have to hit flank or from behind. That's basically the reason why I don't tank much. Having to plant myself takes away the fun for me. That and not having another aoe for fun. I don't need it for threat purpose..... Its just what i enjoyed when tanking in wow. pld had some linking flash move, dk had howling something that aoe .. it just made it feel more fun being able to move freely and/or with aoe. Tank in this game feels a bit stiff.

the reason for the lack of tanks is quite simple...the world is full of sheep and only a select few of us have what it takes to shepherd them as well as protect them from the wolves. though admittedly i hate tanking fights that i feel ask too much such as ramuh/garuda ex. also all those people that say dps greif you.....guess what? your the tank with the instant queue you have the power. i actually find that as long as you can hold aggro most players tend to be pretty forgiving of any other shortcomings you may have. if someone wants to be a dick to me or any other tank then it's vote dissmiss time.

I've seen numerous posts in this article suggesting they use CoS for AoE only - am I the only one that uses it frequently, even on a single target? It's a free off-global cooldown DoT... why not use it? I also weave in Spirits on a regular basis unless it's a mob I know I'll have to silence - otherwise, again, free dps.

Anyways, back to the original topic - tanking *can* be boring. It can also be frustrating (I've done dungeon runs where I shield lob, and before I can gather the 3+ mobs for a flash, the BLMs in the group are already AoEing - sometimes even starting with a Flare. Yeah, try keeping aggro down on THAT). It can also be stressful, as already mentioned that you tend to be viewed as "the leader", even if you're a newb to the dungeon.

And the rewards for this kind of gameplay? An ugly-arse lion or bear that you need to run high level dungeons 9235190357097 times for.

Yay?

I used to like tanking, but after gear item level got increased to 100 (and later 110), it got impossible to me as a paladin to keep aggro from any fully geared dps class. I can manage as a warrior, but as a paladin I'm completely screwed. I don't main tank, it's my 4th alt class at best.

These days I do only guildhest and trial roulette as a tank, if I'm feeling bold. Might even do low level roulette, but haven't really been doing that for a long time. Normally I'll just cower behind a healer class and feel pity for the fresh ilvl55 tank who pops up in a lvl 50 dungeon roulette.

I'm in the process of leveling my marauder job and I might as well just dump it because people are... well... things I can't post here. People simply frustrate me.

DPS aggro management: Yes, you want to rip... don't complain when I let the monster you aggroed rip your face.
Ignoring marked targets: I mark what I hit first, if you hit the others, don't complain when you have them after you to love you to death.
Suicidals: Honestly... you rant to run ahead because you're in a rush? Fine... I'll be back here and watch you die.
Moaners: Always complaining no matter what is done.
Solos: Do their thing even in a party and screw the rest of the people. Fine, go ahead, I won't save your butt.

My SO plays a healer and she always says "You can't heal stupid", aka, if you do crap, she'll let you die. I keep saying "you can't tank stupid"... you do crap, I let you die.

Things got to the point where I refuse to play any healer class past lvl 15 and any tank class is going to go the same way at this rate.

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Originally Posted by kuikui

This just happened to me yesterday and illustrates why people shy away from tanking...Was tanking the newest dungeon (the name escapes me at the moment) when we get a few pulls in and the dps trumps up with "pull everything." I just ignore him and continue to pace the run normally. And what do ya know, he just runs off ahead and comes back with a pack of mobs mid fight.

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Honey, that's what the vote kick feature is for.
I'd have initiated a removal of said DPS after the 2nd pull.

A tank should know his limits and adhere to them. Makes no sense to pull everything just because some DPS wants to AE and then not being able to hold threat.

However If you have the ability to pull, tank & survive everything: please use it (provided the healer has the appropriate gear).

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Originally Posted by Aussir

My SO plays a healer and she always says "You can't heal stupid", aka, if you do crap, she'll let you die. I keep saying "you can't tank stupid"... you do crap, I let you die.

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Know what I hate?
Tanks that cannot hold healing aggro. >.<

Not talking about AE heal spam, talking about only healing what's necessary using vita and getting raped by secondary targets.

Well with Nexus, don't know if there will be more or less tanks queing.

I liked to mix it up in queing as either tank or healer to get some variety, usually low level roulettes. Now, will be as MNK to progress Nexus.

One good "skill" tho for a tank is to have a sense of humor. If you can make people laugh as laughter is the best way to defuse tension XD

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Originally Posted by Mags

I see mostly "tanking is easy" responses. I suppose that is why tanking is not seen much in Duty Finder?

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All these tanking is easy people can gladly take my place in Garuda EX which is the highest stress level gaming I've done since... solo double Diablos in MH3U.

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Originally Posted by Aussir

I don't usually have an issue to hold heal aggro unless the person over-heals me or if he/she suddenly lands me a bigger heal while OP is out of my rotation (thus, the secondaries may run to the healer if the aggro on me is too low). I usually pull them back quickly if that happens though.
Heal aggro is something I DO account for and I can go out of my way to keep the healer alive and well.

What I don't care about is the people that do crap and do nothing to improve, and the types that when you give honest advice only throw vitriol back at you.

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Yeah it's important to hold your horses as a healer on pull and esp when adds appear. To be fair: I mostly aggro in low level content so while annoying I never say anything, b/c I assume they are still learning.

As for the second part: In WoW I tank like this: Whomever finds the aggro of incorrect targets gets to keep it. (Healers excluded, but they can't aggro in WoW anyway) ;)

I don't tank. Not since 1.0 and even then rarely. It seems to me though that the stress a lot of tanks seem to suffer from is self induced. Getting stressed or angry when a dps pulls hate is pointless. As dps we know that if we accidentally pull hate and die then it's our own fault so you needn't worry about it. I say accidentally because there are situations where we knowingly and deliberately pull hate. As a blm I know I have two free hits without taking dmg and if a mob is almost dead or far enough away that I can kill him before he reaches me and gets through my manaward then I'm happy to pull him if it gets the mob dead a little quicker. If I balls it up then I know it's my bad not the tanks. Plus I'm a lala, we're supposed to die once per run.
If a tank doesn't want to speed run then that's fine, I have no preference for speed runs. Even if I did I know that an extra few minutes in a run is still better than queueing again for 25 minutes as a dps. It's your game time and if you don't want to spend it speed running then I have no right to try to impose speed running on you.

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Originally Posted by Aussir

(healers don't count, they get aggro just from existing...)

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HoT on pull... instant aggro, just add mob. :D

There are times when range dps start pull before i even reach mobs which brings in the stress.... I learned how to deal with it.. its simple i click my macro "If you want to tank that mob, take it!" And i just tank the rest. I normally roll with my healer friend, he just doesnt heal him. Then then learn to wait or leave.

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Originally Posted by Seif

All these tanking is easy people can gladly take my place in Garuda EX which is the highest stress level gaming I've done since... solo double Diablos in MH3U.

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Tanking on low level dungeons is the hardest role for new players no question about it. Especially for pld till they get shield oath. DPS just goes pew pew, nobody complains that a mob took 10 more seconds to die.

Later on though I feel like healers have it the hardest and DPS responsibilities start to increase. Sometimes tank roles become really boring such as mt on t7. The thing is though that most people give up on a role on low lv dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Mags

More interesting feedback on the tank shortage. So I am seeing a "tanking is boring" response a bit more. What makes it boring to tank versus DPS or healing? Is the positioning requirements of DPS that much more exciting? Is watching and managing health and status bars more interesting?

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I won't say tanking is boring, I just don't like the mechanics of being rooted at a spot using skills which are meant to increase enmity, rather than being at a distance using skills which are meant to take down enemies faster. as I said, I dislike melee, my choice of weapon/class is anything that can provide me range and high dps. healing on the other hand is a challenge because I get to work with a similar set of mechanics but focused on my fellow players instead.

maybe it's also because I like gunning enemies down in single/offline games and if ever I have to melee it would be mostly in stealth, so the idea of collecting all the enemy npcs then burning them down slowly doesn't appeal to me at all.

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Originally Posted by Fated

I don't enjoy tanking with randoms. Nothing infuriates me more than getting put into a random group with terrible DPS. It's like watching paint dry.

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Haha, that's exactly why I won't touch PLD unless I'm playing with friends. As a DPS, I can make up the damage to compensate for the other DPS if they don't know how to play their class, but as a tank, having two bad DPS is one of the most painful things I've experienced in this game.

When I first started tanking high level dungeons, I was content to pull mob packs one at a time. Frequently, though, the randoms I played with expressed dissatisfaction, and wanted me to pull more to get the dungeon done faster. Peer pressure aside, I was willing to give it a shot because doing these dungeons over and over was pretty boring, and I figured it'd spice things up a bit.

It DOES. Daily Roulettes are MUCH more fun when you push the limits of what you and your healer can do. Every time you get a new batch of random players, it's an interesting game to work out just what they're capable of. How many mobs can I gather and tank while leaving enough room for error just in case the healer or one or both DDs are a bit under-par? How many mobs can I actually hang onto if the BLM turns out to be a lunatic with full ilvl 110+ who thinks Quelling Strikes is for pansies?

In the worst case, a wipe happens. Not a huge deal. Sometimes a healer will ask me to slow down because they're inexperienced or don't have sufficient gear, and when that happens, I do slow down. But when given the choice between crawling and flying, I'm gonna fly! Not because I'm in a hurry, but because it's FUN!

I leveled PLD, only by running instances. I will admit, I am not a good tank but I am not the worst. People you encounter in DF are pretty awful. Totally ignore your targets, when you lose something on a trash pull "learn to tank" or "I don't have time for you to learn, speed run!".

I only tank now for FC or friends, I haven't done it much after I hit 50. I stick to healing.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

When I first started tanking high level dungeons, I was content to pull mob packs one at a time. Frequently, though, the randoms I played with expressed dissatisfaction, and wanted me to pull more to get the dungeon done faster. Peer pressure aside, I was willing to give it a shot because doing these dungeons over and over was pretty boring, and I figured it'd spice things up a bit.

It DOES.
When given the choice between crawling and flying, I'm gonna fly! Not because I'm in a hurry, but because it's FUN!

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As a healer I 100% agree. So much more fun if you actually have to use skills and cooldowns instead of going autopilot-vita-spam.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

When I first started tanking high level dungeons, I was content to pull mob packs one at a time. Frequently, though, the randoms I played with expressed dissatisfaction, and wanted me to pull more to get the dungeon done faster. Peer pressure aside, I was willing to give it a shot because doing these dungeons over and over was pretty boring, and I figured it'd spice things up a bit.


It DOES. Daily Roulettes are MUCH more fun when you push the limits of what you and your healer can do. Every time you get a new batch of random players, it's an interesting game to work out just what they're capable of. How many mobs can I gather and tank while leaving enough room for error just in case the healer or one or both DDs are a bit under-par? How many mobs can I actually hang onto if the BLM turns out to be a lunatic with full ilvl 110+ who thinks Quelling Strikes is for pansies?

In the worst case, a wipe happens. Not a huge deal. Sometimes a healer will ask me to slow down because they're inexperienced or don't have sufficient gear, and when that happens, I do slow down. But when given the choice between crawling and flying, I'm gonna fly! Not because I'm in a hurry, but because it's FUN!

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Completely agree with this. It's a lot more fun when there's more to do compared to the regular pace where a couple of OP/Flash and then barely anything to do.
Personally I had a lot of fun doing BF speedruns with a good group, there was just so much more to keep an eye on and not only tank and spank.
While I don't do this much anymore as I don't run that many duties, when I'm with a group of mates I usually do this as even a wipe will only result in laughs.

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Originally Posted by timwind

I have all classes leveled to 50 and am working on 4th Animus weapon as PLD (BLM/BRD/SCH for last 3).

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Can you share to everyone a bit of your TIME? ^^

More will come.

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Originally Posted by Mags

as others may be well acquainted with the encounter and want a smooth run. A reason you see people leave a party if a wipe occurs once.

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A smooth run goes when everyone is patient enough to get along together, knowing that wipes and deaths are part of the game. We have 90 mins to get it done.

Problem is that some [insert child reference work here] people wants to get it done in 2 minutes, in order to get on with another thing to do in the game, to maximize their time.

For me: you joined a Dungeon that last 90 mins, you expect that it can last until 0 minute. One of my best fight was with Ultima HM with PUGs, no one left, stick to it, and we got him right on time (Seconds left on timer). That is one I still remembers as this was my dream Static group lol

- I must say I love the way you take the time to read us all and to come with being down to earth when posting.

When I play SCH, I need to watch all of the screen, trying to focus on the party but as well the mob and AoE's so I won't be affected. For me it's more challenging than Tanking.

Tanking comes second: You need to watch the Mob and Aoe's (telegraphs) Adds, Your Melee friends (if you need to use Cover), your colour aggro meter, the party's White meter to make sure the number 2 won't take aggro off you soon.

These are challenging to me (I'm just an average player) so it can be a bit overwhelming to some, understandable.

Pile that with being blasted by anyone (DPS or Healer or OT, MT) doesn't help.

Pretty sure (hopefully) that everyone is trying their best (I've seen lots of cases where it's false, getting comments like: sorry was watching youtube-TV o.O) to make things smooth.

To me, DPS is the easiest of it all, where you only have to check the mobs, telegraphs and your aggro bar. Then you can use your Flashier skills than Flash (trust me on the incoming Ninja ;) ) So for me it's more about the animations than being the number one DD of the server.

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I added before I felt overwhelmed as a tank but also once an encounters mechanics are known after a while of doing it, they become trivial.

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This is what makes Tanking to become boring, so much that some people with ADD will be doing something else at the same time.

When a new dungeon or Trial comes, it's new for everyone. People will be more patient for sure. After a while, the ones that will have downed it will expect everyone else on all servers to have downed it. That's a false assumption and it's causing some nice chat ^^

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I think, for me, it is the almost needed requirement to study an encounter before playing with others outside friends and FC mates.

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Ok you lost me here. If you are the first one to discover this event, how can you study it? o.O Simple, you get down and dirty like everyone else. But yes, with Friends, it's more forgiving ^^

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

In a fight the challenge for a dps comes from the monster they are fighting, where the challenge for a tank comes from the other players they are fighting with.

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I like that...

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Originally Posted by LygerZero

I like that...

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I couldn't tell if you were referring to my comment or if you like tanking because of that aspect.

But anywho, I like that aspect of tanking, for the most part, because I find it more fun to have to adjust to and be challenged by actual people than a preset programmed NPC. Its more dynamic and therefore more engaging to me, but I could see how some people wouldn't like it.

O I like tanking, but I like healing better because I have trust issues with peoples ability to heal, but thats another thread. lol

I was referring to the comment. It's a quote worthy of a signature :)

Thanks, I'm glad you liked it.
That's one of my reasons for tanking as well, I don't trust others to tank. :)

There's actually a lot of good insight into the mind of tanks in this thread. I'm far from "uber leet" as both healer or tank, but to be honest, I'd rather work with a new tank as a healer than a new healer as a tank regardless of my ability to do both.

I think most new tanks leave the tanking job due to, like it's been said, DPS forcing pulls faster than the tank wants to go, even if it's just to start the dungeon. I'm TOTALLY fine with the pace the tanks take, but I'm always up for larger pulls. EoS and I got this ;)

A simple "Nice! If you want, you can grab an extra set of mobs and see how we do. I got your back" is usually all it takes. Especially (ESPECIALLY) if you know the tank *IS* new at the whole thing. Why people beat and berate a tank for being new and "sucking" when they should be teaching and training is beyond me. I'm a manager at my work, and while I would LOVE for every new person who walks in the door to be able to hop on a fork lift and stack stuff 30 feet on top of steel without needing any training, it would be foolish to expect it.

New tanks need to be trained and taught, not berated until only a few of "us" remain.

The other problem is of course that, DUE TO the berating and bashing of tanks, the tanks that are worth a damn will 85.462% of the time (number made up) stick to FC's and LS's. Why? Because they also don't want to deal with the problems bad DPS and bad healers bring to a pug and so they know the most likely they will not have to deal with the rude ass internet mafia.

Less tanks queue with pugs = a dying game.
No queue = boredom.
Boredom = taking money elsewhere.

It's a downward spiral. I've been bashed on as a tank, and I've been praised. Hell, I don't think I've ever actually been bashed on any job other than tan. It's a thankless job for the most part, and not one for the weak hearted. I'd love to get back into tanking, but again...trust issues. lol

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Originally Posted by LygerZero

snip

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/nod

/applause

As much the tank classes/jobs are currently I just don't have enough fun playing tank class/jobs in MMOs.

I've always been more the heavy hitting type of player so I play DPS since I prefer damage dealing type classes/jobs more than Tank and Healing type classes/jobs.

In the end for me I prefer playing something I enjoy over playing something that I won't enjoy.

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Originally Posted by LygerZero

The other problem is of course that, DUE TO the berating and bashing of tanks, the tanks that are worth a damn will 85.462% of the time (number made up) stick to FC's and LS's. Why? Because they also don't want to deal with the problems bad DPS and bad healers bring to a pug and so they know the most likely they will not have to deal with the rude ass internet mafia.

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Yep. This. I was a primary raid tank in one of the top guilds of my old WoW server. I rarely ever used the Dungeon Finder because I refused to tank PuGs and deal with bad DPS who wanted to blame their screw-ups on me. The way I tend to look at DPS who complain about no tanks queuing is "You made your bed. Deal with it."

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Originally Posted by Amenian

Yep. This. I was a primary raid tank in one of the top guilds of my old WoW server. I rarely ever used the Dungeon Finder because I refused to tank PuGs and deal with bad DPS who wanted to blame their screw-ups on me. The way I tend to look at DPS who complain about no tanks queuing is "You made your bed. Deal with it."

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Well Tank players are also two-sided as well.

Plenty of times I have ran into Tank players that are just jerks. Just today I ran into a Tank that just a straight jerk by insulting me for playing a Dragoon and for enjoying playing as a Dragoon, saying he hates me for hoping that 2.4 would be released for early October since he believes 2.4 release in October is still too early and people like me are the reason why DLCs for games are made, and telling a Healer he or she is being rude when the healer was just ask nicely if he or she can obtain the mini-pet if it drops from the chest a head of time.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Well Tank players are also two-sided as well.

Plenty of times I have ran into Tank players that are just jurks. Just today I ran into a Tank that just a straight jurk by insulting me for playing a Dragoon and for enjoying playing as a Dragoon, saying he hates me for hoping that 2.4 would be released for early October, and telling a Healer for being rude when the healer was just ask if he or she can obtain the mini-pet if it drops from the chest a head of time.

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Oh, I wasn't trying to say there aren't jerks that play tanks. Apologies if I came across that way. The point I was trying to make is that, of all the roles I've played, tank gets the most hate for the most minor of screw-ups and have their job affected more by other people's screw-ups.

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Originally Posted by Amenian

Oh, I wasn't trying to say there aren't jerks that play tanks. Apologies if I came across that way. The point I was trying to make is that, of all the roles I've played, tank gets the most hate for the most minor of screw-ups and have their job affected more by other people's screw-ups.

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It fine.

I've played Tank roles before and even tried out Tank Role in FF14 and all appears the same being Tanks must carry the heavy burden of keeping the Party alive and dealing with any negative personality with it. It a mentally stressful job as a Tank in MMOs because plenty of times a tank player will feel like they're carrying children around that only ask "Are We There Yet?" while trying to reach the end of a Dungeon or Raid and if something were to happen that would hold the progress they always blame the Driver.

There's also a big focus on ilv as well. I just became a lv50 with a leviathan weapon and full i90 gear. With tue way the game is set up there's no way I can catch up to players in i110 that re now grinding for nexus.

While I am still having fun playing as a warrior + DF benefits, its slowly getting on my nerves on how I gotta rush post 50 dungeons due to those players. I can still keep aggro, but I have to work hard.

Once the new tomes arrive I'll probably put my WAR on hiatus while gearing my other jobs.