Increase the Penalty For Those Who Leave After Getting Loot

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Originally Posted by monochromicorn

someone has already given a decent solution. up the soldiery reward. its a long dungeon, and aside from the 1 piece of loot, its not rewarding at all. someone suggested 75 soldiery upon completion. that might be a tad much, maybe 50. it outdoes thehunt, if you get the gear. on its own, it wouldnt be a practial way to cap on soldiery, as i could hunt and craft between said hunts, and cap sol, while ST would just be doing pointless fights. it would be more rewarding for people to finish, and it would be with the soldiery. some peoplke are still going to leave, but thats on them.

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You get 45 soldiery from the current expert dungeons +35 more per day from the roulette bonus and an A Rank 17 target "cycle" gives 340 Soldiery. I doubt an increase in ST's Soldiery rewards would change anything due to how fast you can already cap soldiery. I was kind of hoping for someone to suggest some other rewards.

There needs to be more non-lockout items at the end of the tower to keep people in. Increasing the penalty won't do much. With hunts nobody really needs the DF for anything else.

Why? its not like you're not going to get an immediate replacement.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

Why? its not like you're not going to get an immediate replacement.

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the real reason why is:

http://www.jewornotjew.com/img/peopl...rt_goldman.jpg


and from the looks of http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Time_Icon.png

example one below here

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

There needs to be more non-lockout items at the end of the tower to keep people in. Increasing the penalty won't do much. With hunts nobody really needs the DF for anything else.

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That's why I suggested the lockout prevents someone from getting Hunt Seals, Tomestones, and Atmas while it is in effect.

Someone suggested it would limit them too much. Wouldn't limit them at all, they could still leave and be a jerk and kill hunt mobs all day. They just wouldn't be rewarded for it.

Is it bad that I've never actually considered leaving until the duty is done unless it's an emergency? I didn't even consider that other people do this in ST.

I would think you're taking a worse penalty by dropping early, Syrcus isn't that long. Not that I'm on the side of dropping early.

You know who really deserves extra punishment? People that spam the teleporter before the first one is accessed. 30 mins per attempt. Also people who cancel right when the duty pops. I'm sick of getting 10+ cancels because people leave. If it's important, they probably have 30 mins to spare.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Make it so you Win your roll at the time of drop but you do not obtain your item until you exit the dungeon properly. Either through exit at the end of the run or by a vote abandon.

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People will just fake dc, and you cannot punish people, who are really having a dc.

Just do hunts, its faster/easier way of getting oils/sands then spamming ST in hopes you will get one item that doesn't even drop each run and is in the treasure pool for all to lot.

Dropping after you get your loot doesn't bother me at all, I kindda expect it at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

You get 45 soldiery from the current expert dungeons +35 more per day from the roulette bonus and an A Rank 17 target "cycle" gives 340 Soldiery. I doubt an increase in ST's Soldiery rewards would change anything due to how fast you can already cap soldiery. I was kind of hoping for someone to suggest some other rewards.

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Originally Posted by monochromicorn

someone has already given a decent solution. up the soldiery reward. its a long dungeon, and aside from the 1 piece of loot, its not rewarding at all. someone suggested 75 soldiery upon completion. that might be a tad much, maybe 50. it outdoes thehunt, if you get the gear. on its own, it wouldnt be a practial way to cap on soldiery, as i could hunt and craft between said hunts, and cap sol, while ST would just be doing pointless fights. it would be more rewarding for people to finish, and it would be with the soldiery. some peoplke are still going to leave, but thats on them.

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Sol is too easily capable, imo (capped in the first few days). Has to be something else I think. Maybe another chest?

I suggested earlier an upgrade system that relies on killing the final boss (+1 stat and can be glamoured, +0 can't), so killing the last boss may upgrade your dungeon earned items (a new way to gear up, if you were in the dungeon for the item there is little reason why you wouldn't want to get the upgrade opportunity). Just make sure it doesn't upgrade past current coil (current end raid ilvl - 1 to 2 ilvls), up the dungeon required at particular ilvl's, and at certain tiers require materia, myth, and then sol to continue (sol being used as the time limiter, like allied seals uses sol - now you have coil tier 1, hunts and hard dungeons tier 2). I only say materia because it has two unique qualities we need if we have an upgrade system. 1. it will mean crafters and gatherers are not abandoned, 2. you can go out and field this stuff yourself (you are not stuck relying on others, but you -can-) - I'm sure there are other ways to do this, but materia just seems like the easy way.

Imagining what happens:
Players gets ilvl 80 gear, upgrade from ilvl 75 gear they have. They want to wear it, they can wear it. They finish the dungeon to unlock the glamour component and earn a slight stat bonus. They continue to run the dungeons for other pieces, and continue to upgrade their current pieces, the larger stat upgrade comes from milestone costs like using materia*, myth or sol depending on what makes sense. *or other fair yet non-gatherer and crafter forgetting item. After the first upgrade it could make sense to allow the player to upgrade the item on any other similar level dungeon too (just ensure the first one requires the origin dungeon).

Can continue to do this until you get near but never at the current end game extreme content (so coil X is never not BiS, as that wouldn't be fair to that hard effort). If SE is hard fixed on the lockout, this would help that issue a little (more ways to get near BiS gear).

You can also invert this system cause why not.. lol. So if you have a max upgraded dungeon gear you can turn that into a special materia that can be used on crafted gear which in turns makes it so crafted gear can be upgraded. Why do this? You can create a nice set of melded gear and then upgrade it through boss essence, meaning that crafting gear can be a third/fourth pillar of the BiS pillar. So you have Coil, Allied Seals (hunts), this dungeon idea (uses sol as a time limiter), this reverse dungeon idea (uses a system that uses sol :P) lol. In terms of order of power I imagine coil/new other coil thing being the best because.. hardest content should be such, boss soul enhanced end game crafting/crafters being relevant? lol (choice and economy features dungeon gear doesn't offer, similar power but more options), boss enhanced dungeon gear/a bit grindy but more challenging than hunts, hunt gear/very easy but also lots of teleporting and grindy, sol gear, crystal tower/very easy weekly (but you could include the gear as "dungeon upgradeable" to ensure it stays desirable over time for non-coil running players). Ex primal essence isn't out of the question either (to ensure skilled acquisition).

How this relates to the OP, a system that rewards you for finishing the dungeon- instead of punishing players that leave you incentivise them not to leave. If you add too many punishment systems a lot of innocents will get hurt.. Adding more sol will just cap you early and mean little in the long run imo, adding the lower tier token won't mean much in the long run, adding more chests might make content less run - the above tried to avoid all that, by making it desirable (probably?) and the content ran just as often (probably more).

---My general behavior in dungeons/st btw:
Unless I have an emergency or it is beyond obvious the the group cannot succeed I stay till the end. Did ST and got my loot on the first boss, someone was worried as the tank that I'd leave - thats cute.. I don't leave :P.

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Originally Posted by Charisma

People will just fake dc, and you cannot punish people, who are really having a dc.

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No one's going to Fake DC to go get Philosophy Tomestones if they used my other idea to change hunt rewards.

Why do people want an extra punishment for people who loot and leave? Chances are they are going to do something else anyway, so a DF penalty won't do jack squat.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

No one's going to Fake DC to go get Philosophy Tomestones if they used my other idea to change hunt rewards.

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Your faith in humanity is cute <3

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

No one's going to Fake DC to go get Philosophy Tomestones if they used my other idea to change hunt rewards.

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Sure they will. Or they will afk in the dungeon til it finishes or they get kicked. Which you can report for if you want, but nothing will come of it.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Just do hunts, its faster/easier way of getting oils/sands then spamming ST in hopes you will get one item that doesn't even drop each run and is in the treasure pool for all to lot.

Dropping after you get your loot doesn't bother me at all, I kindda expect it at this point.

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Some of us can't do hunts because we can't see the mob. Or the mobs around them. Or a lot of the people.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Your faith in humanity is cute <3

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Originally Posted by ispano

Sure they will. Or they will afk in the dungeon til it finishes or they get kicked. Which you can report for if you want, but nothing will come of it.

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I find it hard to believe people would afk out of a group for tomestones that get iLVL70 gear when they could stay and get tomestones that yeild iLVL90/100 instead. Philosophy grants Darklight gear, not the relic recolor.

I had a idea back when they first started to drop party.

My idea is this pretty much where they have to finish the whole run in order for items to fully be yours.
They can win the items but become locked in INV if they leave they go back into the treasure pool for others to lot on it.
Meaning you can't equip it you cant move it until you finish the dungeon after clicking the end portal.

Its a good way to keep people in dungeons and not have them drop afterwards.

If people really want the item they will stay in the dungeon.

Remove the regular kick option.

Put a Auto kick and I know how to do this, if they try to be a dick and not move shatter their armor once it hits zero they are auto kicked if they don't make it to the room before it is sealed, if its a healer and makes it to the room and it is sealed and doesn't heal a hurt target besides themselves their armor shatters autokicked I put money on they will start doing their job if they want gear and they wont stop and not move or try to be a dick.

This is a harsh punishment but I bet you more people would start listening.


But that would never happen, those would be rules that could make people upset lol

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Originally Posted by Odd

It's hard enough to get an Oil from ST. Even harder when the whole party is rolling on it, because all 3 people who got loot from the prior bosses left immediately after getting said loot. This exact scenario happened last night to me.
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Yep, just had my first experience with this today in Wanderer's Palace. Tanker rolled need on all loot, got his mats and bounced, even said in chat "sweet got what i was looking for, gl with rest of dungeon hope you guys finish" then left us high and try. Oh well, bound to happen when you put rare/good loot in dungeons, people "farm" them then bounce leaving those that actually wanna finish to wait for duty finder. Nice oversight SE

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

Would suck to get disconnected mid-dungeon with these rules.

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That doesn't work if you reconnect within five to ten minutes of disconnecting. Game still keeps you in the dungeon during that time frame. If players vote kick you due to d/c, then that's the fault of the community, no sense in not putting a penalty because you thought of one exception or excuse.

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Originally Posted by monochromicorn

ive had 4 healer drops in one run of ST, is it "truly douchey" if i drop because i rolled on the first one and i want other healers to have a chance at getting their weekly loot?

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Your argument is invalid, because you can only obtain loot once a week.

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Originally Posted by Violyre

Some of us can't do hunts because we can't see the mob. Or the mobs around them. Or a lot of the people.

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This is no longer a problem.

So you expect a complete stranger to put aside personal gain for YOUR benefit?

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73...03b7ba45fb.jpg

It isn't worth going ST for oil ( or even sands when they add it ). High chance to lose roll when it drops, and it's 30% chance to drop. Just do some hunts.

The design of ST (and LotA back before its loot lockout was removed) *encourages* people to do this. Honestly, SE has no one to blame but themselves for people bailing from LotA/ST after getting loot. What reason do they have to stay? Tomes? lol.

I have a simple solution to this problem: You can win your loot at any stage but it will not be transported into your pockets till the Dungeon is completed, same for tomes. Might come unhandy for those who really have a DC in the end but for the majority of players it would be a win-situation. And SE wouldn't have to worry again about how and when they distribute loot (remember Brayflox 2 boss speed runs?).

I was quite often in CT2 lately because of the Oil and there is barely a run without somebody leaving after getting loot, lowering your chance to receive an item because all 8 can need/greed again instead of 7. And quite often, the replacement coming in last minute gets the loot, unwritten rule of MMO's lol.

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

Your argument is invalid, because you can only obtain loot once a week.

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How is it invalid ? He drops from the group, another healer gets in for a chance at possible loot since that guy can no longer obtain any. No one has any obligation to finish the instance just so that some people might not have to roll against other people.

You might not have noticed, but healers are few and far between lately, hes only putting the party at a disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

You might not have noticed, but healers are few and far between lately, hes only putting the party at a disadvantage.

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Anecdotal evidences are irrelevant. My point still stand.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

It does not matter if we are rolling out of 100, 1000, 10000000, or 10.

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And here is exactly why I didn't need your input. Tell me why that doesn't matter.

I'm pretty upfront about the fact that I'm not well versed in statistics, and I'm not doing the analysis to swing around some self-satisfaction in my math aptitude. I'm genuinely interested in what the difference is from a system where everybody draws lots and the longest stick wins.

Also, I explicitly said that I'm not dealing with ties because A) I wasn't sure if they existed in the system and B) I don't know how I'd take them out. It would change very little with the number of possible rolls anyway.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

See my post above. I don't care what you say, you're never going to convince me (and apparently a lot of other people agree) that ditching the party after getting your loot on an early boss is a noble thing to do.

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It's not exactly 'noble' but it's not troll-worthy either. It's more a 'who cares?' thing. Afterall, at this point, the main reason people want them to be 'punished more' is only so they will stay and increase the lotting odds of those who didn't lot on earlier items for the oils. Which ironically is also selfish. Not wanting a 'new person' in your group because they might lot against you on something you want is more selfish than someone leaving because they got what they needed. Especially in content that at least currently, reps are almost automatic (I never waited for an ST rep for a party member yet).

If you want to increase your odds of getting an oil (and lets be real, that's what this is really about), go in with a pre-made party. But getting pissy because someone looted and scooted and now you might have more competition for the Oil drop at the end is not Noble or 'motive free'.

Now, if people were complaining about the actual 'abandoning' of parties that happen at the beginning of dungeons runs....especially for the less popular dungeons where that person leaving could = a requeue or long period of sitting waiting for a new party member to pop, I'd have their backs. (Seriously, if you rolled a DR, take what you get....I've gotten the Cutters x7 runs too and hated it but I didn't leave). But that's not the debate here. Here people are simply getting buthurt, that their chances to roll on an Oil at the end of ST might be lessened if a new person joins their group....and that person is also interested in an oil. THAT is where people on the 'you should stay' side lose all merit and 'nobleness'.

Yes, it is best to finish the instance you started w/ the group. But no one is forced to do so.

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Originally Posted by TomTom1968

... but for the majority of players it would be a win-situation.

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could i see the data ? let me guess, you pulled it out of your a**, am i right ? it could as well be your solution would be win for the minority :P

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

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You're missing my point. Why? Because I never advocated for 4-hour penalties like the OP is suggesting. I also have never once complained or even commented on having more competition for Oils. Hell, I've won three Oils from ST as well as an Allagan tomestone and the Onion Knight. I could really care less if a new person gives me "more competion" for the item I want.

My point goes beyond just ST. It goes to anyone and everyone who enters a random DF queue for ANYTHING, obtains their item, and ditches everyone immediately after.

I'm really not going to explain myself any further. I've wasted enough of my time here. Good day now.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

My point goes beyond just ST. It goes to anyone and everyone who enters a random DF queue for ANYTHING, obtains their item, and ditches everyone immediately after.

I'm really not going to explain myself any further. I've wasted enough of my time here. Good day now.

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While I would call ditching after loot rude... you can't really "outlaw" rude behavior, or in this context, no amount of systemization is really going to get rid of it. In reference to the OP, I think 30 minutes is enough discouragement. If they're willing to eat 30 minutes, they aren't going to stay just because it's suddenly 4 hours (they might AFK instead though).

In reference to your posts in particular... yeah, people shouldn't do it... but people will be people. Most we can do is not do it ourselves, hope others pass it on (but many won't), and carry on.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Oooh, I gotcha. So, in a four man dungeon that's a no-no. But, in Syrcus Tower it's totally acceptable. Got it. No double standards there.

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ST and 4-player instances are apples and oranges. In ST, if a player drops - EVEN if it's a Tank or Healer that drops - the run can still proceed normally. Every fight is easily doable with only two tanks, and I know from personal experience as a healer that your Full Party in any of the fights can be solo-healed. The loss of a member in a 4-man is crippling. The loss of a member in a 24-player is a hiccup. The only way ST will be crippled is if a ton of folks drop at once - and even then, they will likely be replaced much faster than the same folks would in a 4-player.

So, yes, in a 4-player dungeon it's a no-no, but in Syrcus Tower it's totally acceptable, without there being any double standard.

Is the person dropping providing any kind of "service" they should be commended for? Of course not - they are acting in their own self-interest. To say it's harmful, though, is an exaggeration.

It's become so common i that almost expect it now, is why i simply stopped passing untill the next fight starts, at least they can stay untill that fight ends. it's pretty sad saying congrats to someone and they drop party right after, you can't help but feel awkward after that.

It is and will always be a selfish move, No matter how you sugar coat it and look at it. people will try to justifiy why they do it "oh, i'm just giving someone else a chance at lotting" and other fail excuses. but they know full well what this act is.

To me it has nothing to do with seeing them as competition for items or not, as the people who do stay the whole run mostly want items off the last floor anyway. it's just someone simply saying "well, i got what i wanted so eff you, i'm out"

Sadly, there is nothing you can do about it, so long as SE has these lock outs, no one will be motivated to finish the runs outside only what they are after. There isn't single run i have been on that at least 3-5 people don't bail after, it's a very common thing.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I find it hard to believe people would afk out of a group for tomestones that get iLVL70 gear when they could stay and get tomestones that yeild iLVL90/100 instead. Philosophy grants Darklight gear, not the relic recolor.

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Doesn't matter if you find it hard to believe. People ALREADY do it. Making the punishment worse, like you asked for, would make it more common.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

It's pretty sad saying congrats to someone and they drop party right after, you can't help but feel awkward after that.

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I think congratulating people for getting an ST or normal 4-player drop is kinda pointless. It happens constantly, it's not a game-changing accomplishment. It'd be like trying to keep congratulating everyone in an Abyssea alliance for every level/merit point they gain when someone is getting one practically every other mob that dies.

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Originally Posted by Limecat

I think congratulating people for getting an ST or normal 4-player drop is kinda pointless. It happens constantly, it's not a game-changing accomplishment. It'd be like trying to keep congratulating everyone in an Abyssea alliance for every level/merit point they gain when someone is getting one practically every other mob that dies.

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When you see someone in an ilvl 60 body or AF piece as and they just got scylla robe, that indeed deserves a congrats. Got to know when to place them. But seeing someone in a ilvl 100-110 peice and then needing on a item, weaker then what they already have ( i assume for glamour) then yea, no real need.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

It's become so common i that almost expect it now, is why i simply stopped passing untill the next fight starts, at least they can stay untill that fight ends. it's pretty sad saying congrats to someone and they drop party right after, you can't help but feel awkward after that.

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Try this, next time say "Congrats..." with the three dots at the end, and if they don't bail leave it at that. If they do, follow up with "... @$$hole" or whatever may be your insult of choice. They won't see it but you'll get a bit of gratification from it.

These Mort Goldman's and their Oils of Time are starting to get on my nerves. Okay here's how you stop these kinds of Mort Goldmans:

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Originally Posted by Volcano

It's become so common i that almost expect it now, is why i simply stopped passing untill the next fight starts, at least they can stay untill that fight ends. it's pretty sad saying congrats to someone and they drop party right after, you can't help but feel awkward after that.

It is and will always be a selfish move, No matter how you sugar coat it and look at it. people will try to justifiy why they do it "oh, i'm just giving someone else a chance at lotting" and other fail excuses. but they know full well what this act is.

To me it has nothing to do with seeing them as competition for items or not, as the people who do stay the whole run mostly want items off the last floor anyway. it's just someone simply saying "well, i got what i wanted so eff you, i'm out"

Sadly, there is nothing you can do about it, so long as SE has these lock outs, no one will be motivated to finish the runs outside only what they are after. There isn't single run i have been on that at least 3-5 people don't bail after, it's a very common thing.

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You see them pulling this idiotic stunt for their Oils maybe UAT when you do win your loot in the middle of the fight (since the loot time on average usually transpires after adds and a good portion of the time during the boss fight) just die on purpose and leave (literally every boss has a near or insta death in this place bosses 2-4). When that happens a person will take your spot and their precious oil is going to get rolled on (even though at this point in the game most people want alt gear, but whatever they like to think they're 100% right). This whole "lol I think I'm clever forcing stays just so i have less people to roll against" will keep getting countered by other methods I will present. You know what's fun about their approach of forcing stays? Doing it on last boss since it's all vanity with a very low chance and REALLY low soldiery and having someone come in mid boss fight roll oils/UAT and have a nice day. None of you will this mentality will force stays... good luck! Not many people care about the vanity low chance junk at the end (which can't even be sold which if it could may cause a small amount to stay, but w/e) and the myth and soldiery is too low. 1 Full credit A or just a quick pop on daily trial roulette and I made more than 2 bosses and 1 final (with the A) or all 4 with trial (well tie with soldiery, but it's not so much about the soldiery) in MUCH less time spent in ST. Keep chaining the ideas. Your methods are just as legal as the ones I will mention. Keeping items < "whoops death". Can't prove it was intentional like how others can't prove you're intentionally holding items for your own reasons (like having less people to roll against) .

I remember grinding for the casting legs a few weeks back. I think I ran about 8-10 STs over the course of that week. I totally bailed after getting those pants.

I would have bailed if SE game me a three day penalty. At some point, you just get fed up grinding the same dungeon over and over again.