Why are Healers allowed to be insanely overpowered?

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Originally Posted by Kienkarajo

I dont feel like a god healing at pvp actually I feel like a piñata

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Perfect answer.

So how are you supposed to counter a team of 4+ healers?

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Originally Posted by bbkkristian

So how are you supposed to counter a team of 4+ healers?

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you don't. look people, just because you see a group of players, it doesn't mean you should ram your face into them. there are certain classes and certain combos of classes you just should not verse against because you just can't beat them in a pug and/or just take too long to beat and is just a waste of time when you could be doing something to benefit the team, point blank. in an organized premade yes, maybe even if your pug group is competent enough to follow directions and beat them (but 99.9% of them aren't so if you're in pug avoid 4+ healer groups as much as possible and go somewhere else). its the same way across many mmos in their battlegrounds. just because its you verses them, it doesn't mean you're entitled to beat them.

you in theory could just focus fire them down one at a time, but that would mean having a dps/tank on the other healers or have a blm mass sleep and bring them down, but in reality, if you're in a pug, just don't bother. just hit another base. it will take you more time to get them down than the time given for the whole match. pugs are just too disorganized for strategic game play.

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Originally Posted by Gor

you don't. look people, just because you see a group of players, it doesn't mean you should ram your face into them. there are certain classes and certain combos of classes you just should not verse against because you just can't beat them in a pug and/or just take too long to beat and is just a waste of time when you could be doing something to benefit the team, point blank. in an organized premade yes, maybe even if your pug group is competent enough to follow directions and beat them (but 99.9% of them aren't so if you're in pug avoid 4+ healer groups as much as possible and go somewhere else). its the same way across many mmos in their battlegrounds. just because its you verses them, it doesn't mean you're entitled to beat them.
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So basically, they are a moving impregnable fortress that can dominate every outpost they encounter due being like a metagame-pokemon-esque wall. Stoop to their level or get out.

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Originally Posted by bbkkristian

So how are you supposed to counter a team of 4+ healers?

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Have 2-3 Healers in your party, and competent focus firing DPS.

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Originally Posted by bbkkristian

So basically, they are a moving impregnable fortress that can dominate every outpost they encounter due being like a metagame-pokemon-esque wall. Stoop to their level or get out.

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to a pug, 98% of the time, yes

Scathe,Scathe Scathe, sleep, scathe,scathe.....SCH sleep the pet, scathe the sch, whm chase them around and scathe, you don't have to kill a healer, make them los their team. keep them moving, herding healers is easy and fun.

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Originally Posted by bbkkristian

So how are you supposed to counter a team of 4+ healers?

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Focus fire and cc. I know that is really hard in pug's but with that many healers i doubt they even make in a dent in your party if you have 2 or 3 on your own (which you should)

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Originally Posted by bbkkristian

So how are you supposed to counter a team of 4+ healers?

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If you can't kill them due to lack of coordination and/or party job composition, go grab their outpost instead. Why waste time trying to brute-force them. Better having one flag than fighting for 5 minutes and having nothing.

And if 4+ healer is OP, you still can do the same and go to 4+ healer yourself and be on equal ground of big time consumming fight that is useless to take....
Strategy is the key, read some of Napoleon and Sun Tsu strategic book, they are hundreds of years old and are still relevant to this day.

PS: And i'd never played any PvP (not even once ^^)

i think there needs to be some kind of party composition restriction in frontlines but i dont know if that can be done without wrecking queue times.

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Originally Posted by Zoeila

i think there needs to be some kind of party composition restriction in frontlines but i dont know if that can be done without wrecking queue times.

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please no, this is exactly a similar idea that wrecked wolves den for high rank players making us wait 30-1+ hours for pops which made the majority of the high rank playerbase quit. ya'll trying to make SE do work when the problem is not anything that SE did, its player error by not adhering to scenario combat strategies. you don't win Tetris by laying the blocks wherever you want, similarly, you don't win Frontlines by shooting at whatever you want.

SCHs are overpowered and invincible.

If I can't 2 shot something, it NEEDS to be nerfed.

It is quite obvious no ?

If any thing need to be change for healers, it is probably the instant rez. I do agree that it is needed in the environment of Wolf Den, but instant rez has created more harm in the environment such as the Frontline. Instant rez between healers is a serious issue need to be address. If unable to disable it, there must be a greater peanlty.

Seems Like people want things to be easy for them, you don't even rez full HP with an instant rez and if you have a problem killing someone with 50% hp then that's a problem you need to work on

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Originally Posted by Hailie

Seems Like people want things to be easy for them, you don't even rez full HP with an instant rez and if you have a problem killing someone with 50% hp then that's a problem you need to work on

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What kind of pleb doesn't exploit the several seconds of invincibility frames immediately after being rezzed to wait for heals, or run out of the middle of the circlejerk pile? As long as you don't perform an action, you have ample amounts of invulnerability to get cured to full by someones Eos/Lustrate/Medica/Cure/Etc. If a group of 3 healers can't get one of their own rezzed and back to full within seconds of said revival, that is a bad group of healers.

Hell, perhaps that is a good balance change. No iframes during revival in PvP.

Even if SE make it so healers cant Rezz in pvp people will find something else to cry about healers, next they will be Telling SE to make it so we cant swiftcast or Bene or even Tell SE that Lustrates, Adlo and Divine Seal needs to be nerfed.. there will always be someone complaining. I guess we should stand there and not be able to help our comrades and be helpless and easy to kill.

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What kind of pleb doesn't exploit the several seconds of invincibility frames immediately after being rezzed to wait for heals

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I love how you try to define what an exploit is even when its a completely intended and workin mechanic.

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SCHs are overpowered and invincible.

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I usually got this from bards I steamroll on my scholar because they like, use blood for blood straight and dont even manually disable it instead of usin it altogether with shadowbind, then silence + that super painful shot they use when their target is at low hp (misery's end i think)

Or dragoons that chain their 2 stuns and just run around tryin to do something after. Summoners that like attack with energy drain after I purify the 3 dots so they cant fester instead of swiftcastin tri disaster, goin behind my back and cast their things again.

Blm that just stand in front of you and pew pew with equanimity on but they didnt notice they got virus / not removin it with purify.


I could go on but guess you begin to see my point huh

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

I love how you try to define what an exploit is even when its a completely intended and workin mechanic.



I usually got this from bards I steamroll on my scholar because they like, use blood for blood straight and dont even manually disable it instead of usin it altogether with shadowbind, then silence + that super painful shot they when their target are at low hp.

Or dragoons that chain their 2 stuns and just run around tryin to do something after. Summoners that like attack with energy drain after I purify the 3 dots so they cant fester instead of swiftcastin tri disaster, goin behind my back and cast their things again.

Blm that just stand in front of you and pew pew with equanimity on but they didnt notice they got virus / not removin it with purify.


I could go on but guess you begin to see my point huh

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he's not calling it an exploit i think he is talking about the act of exploiting it. Like how in sweat shops the owners exploit the workers

uh I don't think it can be exploited since it was put there for that reason so people don't get murdered as soon as they get rezzed up, It's suppose to help us to recover.

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

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exploit
[ik-sploit] Spell Syllables
verb (used with object)
1.
to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account:
to exploit a business opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Nanaya

exploit
[ik-sploit] Spell Syllables
verb (used with object)
1.
to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account:
to exploit a business opportunity.

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My bad sir, thought you were usin the word exploit as a mmo term ^^

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Originally Posted by Nanaya

exploit
[ik-sploit] Spell Syllables
verb (used with object)
1.
to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account:
to exploit a business opportunity.

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Just to help clarify here's my bad attempt to define the OTHER way exploit is used within the context of a dictionary entry which I'm sure is where the mixup was:

noun (used with action)
2.
The other definition referring to a way to take advantage of a loophole in coding: Example- I used an Exploit in another MP game to get a 6/6/6/6/6 loadout instead of 6/6/6/4/2 which was the maximum allowed.

(I bet someone here knows what I'm talking about)

Remember you are playing with PUGs, where there is no voice communications, differing levels of skill and competencies. I would also like to add that as I healer, I definitely die very quickly when focused, or someone slaps a stun or silence at the right time (read skill).

And as a healer I've been in more situations where it was our 2-3 healers vs 4-5 healers, and it is possible to win, just takes some time. Or call over Alliance B, to assist, they come, it really drops the fight time down to less than a minute.

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Originally Posted by Zanctus

Remember you are playing with PUGs, where there is no voice communications, differing levels of skill and competencies. I would also like to add that as I healer, I definitely die very quickly when focused, or someone slaps a stun or silence at the right time (read skill).

And as a healer I've been in more situations where it was our 2-3 healers vs 4-5 healers, and it is possible to win, just takes some time. Or call over Alliance B, to assist, they come, it really drops the fight time down to less than a minute.

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Probably the only post here that matters (not sarcastic).

Even with Pugs it is not that difficult to talk to each other and say "healers first", which is the usual take on a coming battle.
Some even mark it, i do that too and sometimes people know what that means lol.

First i thought that the heals were a bit too strong too.
I played a DD, a scholar and now i usually play as Paladin cause its the most fun to play.
But as Paladin im well aware now how not so immortal any Healer is, doesnt matter how many healer friends he has, if you stunlock them correctly and you have 1 to 3 dds on that heal hes dead meat in seconds.
Since i play Paladin with as many DD accessoires and armor as possible, even i as Paladin can bring their Hp quite low, im thinking on getting the ilvl 90 crafted Gear as it only has parry on the head and feet, the rest is Determination and skill speed.
Or is it worth wearing the ilvl 100 stuff?

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Originally Posted by Hailie

Even if SE make it so healers cant Rezz in pvp people will find something else to cry about healers, next they will be Telling SE to make it so we cant swiftcast or Bene or even Tell SE that Lustrates, Adlo and Divine Seal needs to be nerfed.. there will always be someone complaining. I guess we should stand there and not be able to help our comrades and be helpless and easy to kill.

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exactly. and then no one will want to play a healer because it would mean you're just going to spend most of the match dead. ya'll think ya'll have healer problems now? just wait til you won't have any healers at all or just 1 or 2 on your entire team. no one wants to play a class that can't pull its own weight when under fire.

Whether it's an organizational problem or not, let's be serious here: a mediocre healer can cause more disruption and more problems than a mediocre DPS ever will. The difference in the skill floor between the two roles is just way too friggin' massive.

Two or three good healers is enough to cause a deadlock even against twice as many DPS, and that gets really tiresome really fast. Of course, the solution would be for every DPS to finally learn how to play their class properly instead of just banging on keys all day, but, uh, yeah, good luck with that.

It would just be nice if a single good DPS held at least as much weight in a fight as a single good healer, you know? Maybe that would ruin the delicate balance and throw healers out of Frontlines entirely, perhaps, possibly, I don't know. All I know is that spending the entire match wailing on a team with a mere three healers and not making any headway is not much in the way of fun:

https://q9mvcg.dm2301.livefilestore....214.jpg?psid=1

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Originally Posted by Gor

exactly. and then no one will want to play a healer because it would mean you're just going to spend most of the match dead. ya'll think ya'll have healer problems now? just wait til you won't have any healers at all or just 1 or 2 on your entire team. no one wants to play a class that can't pull its own weight when under fire.

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would gladly welcome that, would rather have a fight to be 2mins instead of 10mins of pointless deadlock. death actually matters and people would be more careful if there are no healers backing them up.

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Originally Posted by Dano

would gladly welcome that, would rather have a fight to be 2mins instead of 10mins of pointless deadlock. death actually matters and people would be more careful if there are no healers backing them up.

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Really? Trust people to *play more careful* <~~ in FL? So instead of actually working together as a team in FL to focus down healers, you would rather have them removed to make things easier for you? I Highly doubt they would get rid of healers that would be unfair. Maybe people should stop running around like chickens with their heads cut off doing what ever they want and actually learn to play together as a team.

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

It would just be nice if a single good DPS held at least as much weight in a fight as a single good healer, you know? Maybe that would ruin the delicate balance and throw healers out of Frontlines entirely, perhaps, possibly, I don't know. All I know is that spending the entire match wailing on a team with a mere three healers and not making any headway is not much in the way of fun:

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Definitely get what you're saying, but there comes a point in skill as DPS (and tanks) that no matter how good the healer is, they will die. Balance comes when people are playing at their peak and have alternative jobs to switch to if they must. Your screenshot is kind of testament to that. You obviously blew away the majority of the other DPS. Had you been with others like you, 4+ healers really starts to look like a joke to deal with. Regardless, sometimes it isn't about killing the healer in a quick, perfect burst. Burn their resources and cooldowns before your healers have to burn theirs, and the kills will come.

The problem, as you said in different words, is DPS are too lazy/too stupid to maximize their classes and plan their approaches (and also level other classes).

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Originally Posted by Atreus

The problem, as you said in different words, is DPS are too lazy/too stupid to maximize their classes and plan their approaches

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^ this. i see alot of people who just dinged 50, still in quest gear and only parts of their 50 job gear, or didn't even bother to get at least ilvl 80 gear, or come in with ilvl 70 PVP gear into FL expecting a carry. or tanks that gear and spec vit. or goons who DR out stuns because they want to dragonspine dive the healer to death before the tank even has a chance to reach the healer. you have enough of those kinds of tards on your team you're not going to put a dent in any geared healer with even a tiny bit of a clue how to play the class no matter how many of them are on it.

Sorry I haven't read all the replies but the reason why Healers may seem to be overpowered is because the Frontlines usually consists of random people with little communication. This gives the illusion that healers are extremely powerful but really a few selected people with good coordination with their damage and crowd control should be able to take out a healer with little problem unless they're being outplayed by the opposing team or even the healer him/herself.

I'll admit I've only played a few Wolves Den and Frontlines but from my little experience a healer only has the upper hand when the opposite team is nonorganized and are randomly throwing abilities out the window.

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

It would just be nice if a single good DPS held at least as much weight in a fight as a single good healer, you know?

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Except, healers are easy to shut down by a single DPS already. Any attack on them essentially prevents a cast. Being able to kill them right away too would really remove any purpose in even having them.

As a DRG, healers do drive me crazy sometimes, but I think it's needed. If healers become wet paper bags, every engagement will go the same way - healers (if any) drop in 5 seconds and then its just a big dps check. If I want that, I'll go smack a dummy. Healers are the only jobs at the moment that actually push strategy in Frontlines and create intense engagements, so let's not kill that please.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

The problem, as you said in different words, is DPS are too lazy/too stupid to maximize their classes and plan their approaches (and also level other classes).

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Yes, there are a lot of players who doesn't understand their own job, no doubt of it. Healers are fine by itself, indeed. They need such survival ability in Wolf Den, I also agree. This is why that I bidding when they adjust Scholar in 2.35, they won't touch anything but tone down rune 2 and cleric stance as sub action.

Yet, you have to admit that skill floor for FF14 Healers are much lower, average players can do much better on healer roles than dps roles. Also, JP recently has a developed a strategy for premade party of White Mage x 4, scholar x 2, summoner x1 and black Mage x 1. With this formation, all this party need to do is Zerging between outpost and nodes.

You can't beat them in capture the flag, because of 4 whims at flag zone with holy spam. Even you manage to kill one of them with greatest teamwork you can show, they still have a lot of instant Rez to spam. Not sure if you notice, the healing potency is much higher than dps potency at ilvl80. Monk's ramping time is too long, drg has restricted directional requirement, bard need to be with in 15 yards for best range attack potency, balm requires long set up time. How effective is smn's dots against this setup. The only chance is you throw in 2 parties to over run them, but that is pretty much mean you are throwing away your game.

There is not a learn to play issue but issue of job stacking. What is your resolution for this? I don't want to nerd healer' survival, so may be put back role restriction? Que will be horrible, especially for Primal Malestorm.

I am not ranting, just point out the obvious and I would like to hear about your resolution for this type of healer stacking tactic.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Yet, you have to admit that skill floor for FF14 Healers are much lower, average players can do much better on healer roles than dps roles. Also, JP recently has a developed a strategy for premade party of White Mage x 4, scholar x 2, summoner x1 and black Mage x 1. With this formation, all this party need to do is Zerging between outpost and nodes.

You can't beat them in capture the flag, because of 4 whims at flag zone with holy spam. Even you manage to kill one of them with greatest teamwork you can show, they still have a lot of instant Rez to spam. Not sure if you notice, the healing potency is much higher than dps potency at ilvl80.
There is not a learn to play issue but issue of job stacking. What is your resolution for this? I don't want to nerd healer' survival, so may be put back role restriction? Que will be horrible, especially for Primal Malestorm.

I am not ranting, just point out the obvious and I would like to hear about your resolution for this type of healer stacking tactic.

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okay....buuuuut: What happens when this JA premade faces another JA premade of the same type? I'm assuming it's either a stalemate or loss for both teams (they spend too much time fighting each other and 3rd team on the map cleans up). Because 6xhealers on one team (which I saw exactly once on our data center btw) is gimping your DPS by a landslide....as is carrying that many casters tbh (they can be interrupted by sneezes). So it won't take long for people to come up with a team composition, that can smite this one (and if they can't do that strategies that minimize this teams effectiveness indirectly which forces people to stop stacking)
For example-
It'd take this team forever and a day to kill the nodes- so other, more DPS oriented teams would win the nodes/more nodes typically.

Nor can they hold ALL the flags at the same time, as this setup works for 'holding' and not as well for 'on the move'/claiming. So either teams would learn to 'let them have it' and ignore the one flag this team is dead set on guarding or if this Healer team keeps moving flag-to-flag, just picking up the ones they left after they leave. (so basically still ignoring them). Either way, sooner or later, this team will get bored, and separate ....then they can be picked off. Also, in both cases, as long as the opposing teams keep fighting, they will be building LB's that will squash this squishy composition.


So limiting how many healers on one team really doesn't solve anything....and further breaks frontline queues. People think they wait long now on our Data center as Maelstrom....imagine if the queues ALSO had to match party role compositions evenly across the 3 nations. So, just for this alone, I think it's worth dealing with the 'risk' of facing a '4x healer+ team' in any given match. (I'd rather faster queue times, than set party comps).

As to nerfing healers: Well, for starters, this isn't the only PvP content in game. And in wolves den, a Healer needs to survive being hitx3. And even then, with all the skills they gave us, and are supposed immortalness, this is a HARD task, not for the feint of heart. (I know, I spent my first 19 Ranks of PvP pugging wolves den....as healer, every match). In frontlines, it really isn't that hard to kill a healer....it's just most dps/tanks don't know what to do to stop them. Really, it would behoove everyone, regardless of what their 'main' role is in frontlines typically, to spend about 10 matches as a healer. I can promise, if you heal a couple matches you will start to see how vulnerable they can be/learn 'OH, so this is how my class can effectively kill a healer!' and once you switch back, be far more effective at your chosen role. (this is not me saying your bad at your role/healing...but rather, seeing the battle through the eyes of a healer, will teach you what they are weak in/what skills that once blown=they are easy to melt).

Lastly: Most healers simply don't die NOT because they heal better than DD's dd...nor that they can heal each other...it has far more to do with how DD's try to handle them (basically they try to zerg them the same way as a PvE mob and they fail miserably and then get all 'healers are OP!' mad...mostly because they didn't think it through onto what a healers strengths/weaknesses are.) Seriously, NEVER open your biggest, baddest skills on a Healer that is likely fully buffed/all actions recharged. Wittle them down first...force Cooldowns to be blown....wait until you see attunement/bene/Lustrates x3-6ish go of THEN, then zerg. Also, just because you're all supposed to 'focus Target 1' atm, doesn't mean people shouldn't still be applying some pressure/annoying the other healers/fairys. (I always sic my pet on the non-targeted healer for example...or if not against a big healer threat, I sic my pet on whatever is annoying my teams healers).

Now all that said: Yes, I'm sure there will be minor adjustments made to each job in Frontlines to help balance the battles a bit. And maybe, it would be more productive if instead of the 'Healers are OP!' mantra and whine people have adopted, they instead come up with specifics that they feel their desired role is missing when facing a healer challenge. Because the real solution might not be nerfing healers, but rather tweaking other roles PvP skills/potency etc to give them a slightly better chance when facing a healer wall.\

EDIT:

Personally, I think they need to adjust tanks PvP skills to make them a 'healers bane' For example make provoke (a nigh on useless skill for tanks atm) FORCE a target to lock onto you, and only you, and only able to perform actions on you (not even on themselves). This would further give tanks a 'support' CC place in PvP, make teams appreciate/fear them more, and also while the skill could shut down a healer for a bit, it could also be used against other roles as needed. Just this simple little change, could be all the game needs to lower DPS/tank frustrations when facing large-healer teams in PvP. Hell, I think would just be awesome if 'Provoke' worked like 'Moogle Go Round' or if tanks got a 'Charm' effect-skill they could use in PvP, it'd also make things more interesting/make tanks more valuable (charm mid could be hilarious...omg the giggles). My point: Maybe giving tank roles just 1 adjustment, could make everything okay.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

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I don't disagree with you on any front. You kind of repeated something I already said though. Yeah, it takes more to maximize DPS than it does healer. But then as I also said, balance comes when everyone's playing at their peak. It isn't a reason to nerf anything.

Anything that can be done to you, you can also do to them. You don't need a party of 8 healers, but a solid group has three healers. More than that is 100% unnecessary and gives a false sense of security. A two-healer group is passable but dangerous. Most other content requires at least two healers anyway, so I dunno why anyone would expect yet another team-based game to be any different.

As for countering the JP premade... well.... another premade, sad to say. That group will stack on a base and Holy spam PUGs to the next dimension. Buuuut they're all casters. I'd probably tell the two bards I usually run with to spam Wide Volley on them while the rest of us went to town on targets. We usually have a monk that does some good interrupt work periodically too. Could always just stay out of that group's way though. A group like that will never be able to be in two places at once.

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As a DRG, healers do drive me crazy sometimes

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Its normal we re not the anti heal class. Monks and summoners are but everyone want to be them. Dragoons shine at absolutely destroyin bards and black mages and then assist by debuffin target for your ranged and slowin others. I think DDs just have the misconception of beein just dds.

That and tunnel vision. I mean if you go on a healer one on one at the very first engagement you should KNOW that he got absolutely everything up to simply laugh at you. Then again you can spot the ones that are not played in a good way to kill them but still ...

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Yeah, it takes more to maximize DPS than it does healer

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Nope, playin healer is no matter what the most complicated job in PvP because its all about kittin right and castin meanwhile + usin all your tools and crowd controls. Dpsers just worry about assistin / burstin. Its a completely different mindset but yeah playin heal is way more exigeant.

Actually I think people should start by playin tanks in pvp to know how to assist properly and then begin to be dpsers. I m still seein 2 tons of dps that never attack the targets alone in the back, or just focus the same one, that kind of stuff. Thats something that come with the tank role in pvp, gettin to know how to annoy / assist / protect.

Then when you re a dps you know how to play better. Its just that its extremely frustrating to not have players with the same reactivity than you sometimes ;p

Uh, no? I said maximizing, not necessarily playing and surviving. A WHM (example) is gonna Cure or Medica for the same amount every time he uses it (don't bring up Divine Seal please). A DPS has a dozen other factors that affect their damage output. Cooldowns, MP (for BLMs), distance (for BRDs), position (for melee), proper rotations, interruptions that may screw up a combo, etc.. Let's not even get into DPS and tunnel vision.