1.18: Wipe your tears and open your eyes!

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

It totally defeats the purpose of cross-class abilities, like you said. And I'm hoping for that. I actually get confused as to why people enjoy the concept of leveling, say, a Conjurer in order to play your Marauder. It's very counter-intuitive to me.

But even if they don't eliminate cross-class abilities (which I don't think they will) I think a subjob system, or a variation of it, would be better. The difference is, in FFXI you only had one subjob at a time so each main job typically only required a few subjobs to cover all your bases (and usually 1-2 were dominant).

Here, we'll all be required to level all classes to 25 (as an example). Which I'm a lot more comfortable with than currently feeling like I should level all classes to 50...

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The setup allows people to play in a specific "primary" style, via their actual active class, while adding "flavor" or variety to it by picking and choosing skills from other classes.

It's rather like how what subjob you chose in XI affected the way you played your main, only in this case, there are far more options to choose from... at least where playing the base classes is concerned. It will apparently be a bit different when the Job system is implemented, as those will be more specialized.

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Originally Posted by viion

Not if some say its working cuse they can hold X mob where as others say it doesnt work because they cant hold Y mob, when X and Y are completely different. So thus it can be broken when it works for some but not for others when additional situations are added to the experience.

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But wait... isn't that kind of moving the goal post?

I clearly remember people complaining that enmity was messed up because they couldn't hold hate on the ogre and/or other encounters in the 45 dungeon. That was the "definitive proof", according to some, that enmity was broken.

People have since figured out how to use the new system effectively, thus proving that claim to not be true.

So, now the argument will be "well, it works in one scenario, but not in others... so it's still broken"?

Is it not every bit as possible that the specific tactics used on "X" don't work on "Y", or have to be somewhat modified, and people simply need to figure that out?

Or does the assumption simply change from "Okay, well it works for X... but now we can't seem to hold hate on Y... so it's broken anyway".

And what happens when people find that, yes, with some adaptation and adjustment, the enmity system works on "Y" as well. Does it then become "well, it works on "X" and "Y"... But it's not working on "Z"... So it's broken anyway"?

I remember reading posts from people stating that even in other activities, they're finding the enmity system to be working, with some adjustment and adaptation.

At some point, it becomes simply a case of crying wolf.

I myself find the patch a tremendous improvement.

Sorry if this has been covered in a previous post, only had time to skim. I think one of the valid player complaints re: enmity would be that someone that leveled one class to 50, Mar, pug or gla, will not be as effective of a tank without dumping time into a class they prefer not to play. Needing MRD, pug, lnc and gla abilities is a bit much to ask for some people. Maybe the return of the job system will put the nail in that coffin?

Just to bust your chops, 30seconds?!?! Lol j/k

Respectfully,
Destain Xiv

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Patch 1.18 came with fixes - not game-breakers. I spent a decent amount of time reading and participating in all these threads suggesting that the game is broken, and things are not working.

I just thought I'd compile some of my contributions to the various topics in said threads:

Enmity is not broken. It is different. The change is well done. Tanks just need to adjust and learn to effectively gain hate with this new system instead of trying to do what used to work in the old system and asserting the system is broken when that doesn't work...



I myself tank on PGL, and will admit that at first I wasn't able to hold hate well at all. I pride myself on being a quick learner and adapting to change well. Even prior to playing the game after the patch, while just reading the notes I knew my old tanking strategies were not going to cut it. I knew with this new cumulative enmity system, my strategy was to shift from a method of holding hate, to one of accumulating hate. Once I made some changes to my routine, and swapped around some skills I was holding hate at least as well as before 1.18. Add to this how the rest of the team can now monitor their enmity levels and adjust accordingly, and hate management is much more... manageable now.

Another popular topic of QQ is Archers - apparently they've been nerfed...



Even after an edit I still see I forgot to add Trifurcate in there. Another skill that used to cost a lot of stamina, but can now be used instantly with no change to it's cooldown. It was always the preferred way to store 3 arrows mid-fight, and now it's free due to lack of stamina too.

The thing is, 1.18 changed the game... a lot. It was a major patch. The real issue here is it seems to be "too much, too fast" for a lot of players. SE can't just slow things down and ease players into this game's new direction any more than they do. They've got a serious deadline to keep or else this game is not likely to succeed. It's not like the devs haven't told us time and time again how many things are going to change with these upcoming patches - 1.18 being just the beginning.

There are going to be players who keep up to change and enjoy where the game is headed, and there are going to be players who fail to adapt or don't agree with where the game is headed and they will quit. It's a necessary part of change.

Let's just not confuse an inability or unwillingness to adapt with a broken game mechanic. Broken game mechanics are broken for everyone.

Finally,



We as a community must embrace this new, challenging, and incredibly fun game we have been given. We must keep our criticisms constructive, and not fall into the trap of ranting/whining about personal opinions/feelings and confusing them for game shortcomings or flaws.

Despite all of the sincere efforts of the constructive members of our community to assist everyone in catching up, and to prove with videos, screenshots, tips & tricks, and strategies that there is very little wrong with the changes brought by patch 1.18 if anyone still feels the need to complain/rant/whine... all I can say is:

Cry Some More.

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You nailed it.

So well put together I wanted to thank you because now I don't even have to try to form my thoughts into a wall of text. You said what I felt better than I could have typed it. I completely agree the game has changed drastically, and its time to adjust, but keep in mind tweaks and jobs are coming so even if you're not 100% satisfied (which is probably the case) its going to get even better!

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Originally Posted by Destain

Just to bust your chops, 30seconds?!?! Lol j/k

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Just when I had forgotten all about it...

:P

After the patch me and my friends were partying, me as ARC and they were LNC and PUG. I kept being KO'd because I took hate too quickly, 2/3 deaths in and I started letting them take hate initially for 10-15seconds, they would get a bit of DPS in and a Taunt or what have you, then I would quelling shot, shoot and gradually getting up to be able to WS. It's not rocket science, it's trial and error after a patch.

I am not entirely 100% behind it though, I do think that Cure's could come down a little bit in cost and enmity spike; only a little. I certainly do not want to dumb down play too much, but making it a little easier on people wouldn't hurt IMHO. You can say 'You're a bad player because you can't tank post-patch' but the game shouldn't be too harsh that the masses can't do it (even if the masses are idiots, I will reserve judgement of that for now). Nobody wants to do a /shout party and the guy can't tank because he hasn't bothered to level CON. If SE ever make the search functionality more transparent, this could be frustrating.

I guess I shouldn't speak to harshly about this as I have not tanked myself yet so I can't formulate a complete opinion.

I am split on my opinion of ranking up other classes to supplement your 'main'. Yes this makes for great customisation of a class and is a really cool idea, but I see what people mean when they are ranking up a mage class so they have effective abilities to be able to tank as Gladiator. But I suppose this was like leveling up a sub job (as someone mentioned). We are still in-between patches so I will probably formulate a more structured opinion once I see a concrete direction for 1.19/1.20

How relevant will leveling up other classes be when jobs hit? Who knows. My personal preference would be any job for any class and if you don't play/chose them optimally that's your fault however, my gut feeling is that it will be something like GLA can unlock PLD or WAR. CON can unlock RDM or WHM. This would give your class some diversity but still keeping it limited.

Sorry if my opinions are all over the place, I just wanted to put out my positive/negative thoughts in a hopefully reasonable way.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

This. Thank you.

I was honestly starting to freak out a little bit with everyone taking the number so literally.

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Lol. Atm is enought letting thetank hit first the mob one time, rise shield, send one provoke and one phalanx. This one last 5-10 secs? No more. Tested.

Stop complaing about only what you read. Go to the game, log in and play a little please

I actually don't see much wrong with the new enmity system, but the overall "If you're having problems with it, you're a retard" mentality going on here is ridiculous.

On a side note about things outside the dungeons possibly being broken, anyone else noticed the Ixali Camp located right next to Uraeus's spawn area? lol.

so you saying that enmity is not broken you just have to rank 4 classes to get enough skills to tank? gotcha.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

so you saying that enmity is not broken you just have to rank 4 classes to get enough skills to tank? gotcha.

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No he is saying you need a few key skills to be the most effective tank in the game. You can easily make due with just the Glad and shield skills @ 50 + having CON/THM @20 and maybe adding in MRD at 20 for +10% emnity. Getting a job to 20 is a single day affair, and can be done in 1-2hours if you know what your doing. This is by no means required.

If you want to tank with zero loss of hate for the entire fight against our current most difficult NM's then you need a few cross class skills and a party who knows there head from their ars (aka they know how to avoid spamming sac3/cure3 within the first 30 seconds of a fight.

Curaga MP costs and hate generation: this is the one area i feel regarding hate generation that needs adjustment. Right now you can avoid this issue by using ranged DD's but taking a pug into the ogre fight for DD purpose is not very advisable. The cost to cure them is too high and pushes you into the arc/thm/con/tank onry mentality. I think if they lowered the curaga hate and mp costs SLIGHTLY it would be enough to help mix up the party dynamics and help get the other jobs in the mix.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

No, I do not.

It was a viable strategy to be safe rather than sorry before this patch, and is now a more effective strategy. If 20-30 seconds of no DPS drastically increases the chance that I will not lose hate from a boss mob/NM which will take a matter of 5 minutes at least to kill, than I will definitely go with it.

I'm sorry but, I find mindless zerging with everyone in the party constantly attacking at maximum output to "maximize DPS" to be neither enjoyable, nor exciting.

Perhaps you need to re-evaluate how you think a strategic battle should play out?

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I'm pretty sure across my entire MMO career "let the tank establish hate before going all out" has been an industry standard...

Personally my LS has handled the change well and starting dropping Ogre boss in DHold. On the second day, for me personally as an Archer I took 15 minutes of running around a R40 area and killing mobs to re-figure out my class and learn how to optimize DPS and it worked really well for me. I recommend anyone who is currently uneasy with the game to go out with a small group and grind on some mobs and get the feel for your class rather than jump directly into the dungeon, but then again my LS did that and got the hang of things really quick. This actually goes with the ability of learning and adapting to things, people learn in different ways and that is what I am suggesting.

That goes for the tanks that are complaining and the DD who cannot manage their hate levels effectively in which causes them to die or get damaged so much that the healers are complaining about being a Mage and being nerfed because they are always out of MP from casting Raise and Curing the people that shouldn't need to be cured. It is a chain effect, tank can't hold hate properly, DD going nuts because they don't understand the changes in the new tanking style, and the healers who are mad because they are always out of MP.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

so you saying that enmity is not broken you just have to rank 4 classes to get enough skills to tank? gotcha.

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No, I am saying enmity is not broken just because you have to do more than spam two vokes to hold hate.

I am saying getting certain skills from other classes will help you tank better.

I am saying GLA is efficient at tanking, but it was not built solely around tanking. It's a class, not a Job.

I think enmity is broken when i lose threat to someone (a healer go figure), they start standing there so I can get it back, and it somehow takes 4 provokes, 4 disorients, 1 taunt, 2 accomplices, a heavy stab, heavy slash, 2 weaponskills, warmonger and 2 war drums and healing that healer myself as he got punched in the face to finally get it back.... Half way through doing all that i finally became yellow on the threat meter again. I can only think that someone accompliced me too, but if i cant get it back after all that it couldn't have been accomplice. fortunately that has only happened once. Tho i'd say it was a bug that hasn't been repeated in that intensity.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I think enmity is broken when i lose threat to someone (a healer go figure), they start standing there so I can get it back, and it somehow takes 4 provokes, 4 disorients, 1 taunt, 2 accomplices, a heavy stab, heavy slash, 2 weaponskills, warmonger and 2 war drums and healing that healer myself as he got punched in the face to finally get it back.... Half way through doing all that i finally became yellow on the threat meter again. I can only think that someone accompliced me too, but if i cant get it back after all that it couldn't have been accomplice. fortunately that has only happened once. Tho i'd say it was a bug that hasn't been repeated in that intensity.

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Enmity is very damage based too now. Throw in some weaponskills that generate extra enmity, like Barrage, Phalanx, Jarring Strike, etc.

In general, it is known that not all mobs have the same enmity patterns so there's a learning curve,

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Enmity is very damage based too now. Throw in some weaponskills that generate extra enmity, like Barrage, Phalanx, Jarring Strike, etc.

In general, it is known that not all mobs have the same enmity patterns so there's a learning curve,

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Read that again please... It was with the ogre btw. no hate wipe skills. I had a few mins of hate built up already, and he took me down to green in threat. Plus we had 3 healers, he was near full on MP.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Read that again please... It was with the ogre btw. no hate wipe skills. I had a few mins of hate built up already, and he took me down to green in threat. Plus we had 3 healers, he was near full on MP.

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Yea, idk what to tell you then. We've done the ogre fight over a dozen times and hate management was never an issue after the first attempt for us. We simply allow the tank to take initial hate, including curing himself with a tier 2/3 a couple times. The tank uses accomplice regularly on our mages.

I even tanked it once myself on PGL after our first couple runs and had no trouble holding hate. The difficulty for us was always survival when he started spamming Inferno Drop at lower HP.

Also idk if it's just your wording, but if you are tanking nobody should be using Accomplice on you. You should be using Accomplice on the mages.

Just the wording. I was saying it might have happened because someone decided to use accomplice on me, but after using a few myself after it should have been hard getting it back, especially on some one just standing there waiting til i get it back. Like I said, that only happened once.

@noctis, great summary post and glad to see you back. i agree in that 1.18 clearly separates those who are able to adapt and evolve their playstyle from those stuck on aoe curespam and mindless dps. if it doesn't work, try something else. success is 99% failure, man.

i find that, like you, the discovery of teammates who are willing to accept change, move on, and better their playstyles has increased the bond and friendship between us, promoting greater cohesiveness and teamplay, which is what, at the end of the day, a mmo should be about (at least to me). for those who dislike change, i have and will continue to issue words of encouragement and support.

with regards to enmity, it may seem wonky, but after every lost battle, stop for about ten minutes and think about why you wiped. i promise, you will learn more in these ten minutes than if you immediately fixed your gear and re-entered the dungeon. and by 'immediately,' i mean after the cooldown.

in the end, batraal, suck it. we got your number and we're going to continue farming your ass today.

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Originally Posted by makistar

@noctis, great summary post and glad to see you back. i agree in that 1.18 clearly separates those who are able to adapt and evolve their playstyle from those stuck on aoe curespam and mindless dps. if it doesn't work, try something else. success is 99% failure, man.

i find that, like you, the discovery of teammates who are willing to accept change, move on, and better their playstyles has increased the bond and friendship between us, promoting greater cohesiveness and teamplay, which is what, at the end of the day, a mmo should be about (at least to me). for those who dislike change, i have and will continue to issue words of encouragement and support.

with regards to enmity, it may seem wonky, but after every lost battle, stop for about ten minutes and think about why you wiped. i promise, you will learn more in these ten minutes than if you immediately fixed your gear and re-entered the dungeon. and by 'immediately,' i mean after the cooldown.

in the end, batraal, suck it. we got your number and we're going to continue farming your ass today.

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Oh man... our LS just recently bested the Ogre after multiple tries. It was sloppy though.

We maintain a smooth run and tank doesn't lose hate ever, but towards the end he decides to spam his TP skills, especially Inferno Drop - which we do stun but somehow not all the time. The chat-log can be so very.... inconsistent.

Took my group 6 runs to take down ogre, and about 10 to get it smooth and clean. Biggest help for me was where to tank the ogre. After much trial and error the south wall seems to be foolproof. Last run we were able to do it with:
50-ARC x2
50-LNC
42-ARC
44-ARC
50-CON x2
50-THM

2nd hardest part is the group of 8 ppl changes every run. With about 15 active ppl in the ls each run is slightly different. Almost every time a players main heals for the first time they get 1shotted at some point due to an aoe or pulling early hate.

Chameleon is my god-mode ability of choice, soon as I see any signs of red threat boom-> back to green =)

Many skills across all jobs just got a major boost in effectiveness and with the emnity changes all players on our team are constantly managing hate with abilities and communication. I am amazed how much the game can change just by adjusting emnity.

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

Took my group 6 runs to take down ogre, and about 10 to get it smooth and clean. Biggest help for me was where to tank the ogre. After much trial and error the south wall seems to be foolproof. Last run we were able to do it with:
50-ARC x2
50-LNC
42-ARC
44-ARC
50-CON x2
50-THM

2nd hardest part is the group of 8 ppl changes every run. With about 15 active ppl in the ls each run is slightly different. Almost every time a players main heals for the first time they get 1shotted at some point due to an aoe or pulling early hate.

Chameleon is my god-mode ability of choice, soon as I see any signs of red threat boom-> back to green =)

Many skills across all jobs just got a major boost in effectiveness and with the emnity changes all players on our team are constantly managing hate with abilities and communication. I am amazed how much the game can change just by adjusting emnity.

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Yea I know what you mean about skills and player swaps :P.

During our last run we tried the the south wall in the lower part, but for our next run I'm going to try having the tank take the Ogre up to the very south-most wall out in the boundary. Hopefully that'll smooth out the edges.

oh noctis, sorry the enmity part of my post wasn't aimed at you, but the casual reader on this thread. for those with healer enmity issues, many, if not everyone in my party also has accomplice. have your healer shout YELLOW when their bar turns...duhh...yellow, accomplice them, then chameleon the enmity away. while the cooldown on chameleon can be long, i think the accomplice cooldown is only like :30s.

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Originally Posted by makistar

oh noctis, sorry the enmity part of my post wasn't aimed at you, but the casual reader on this thread. for those with healer enmity issues, many, if not everyone in my party also has accomplice. have your healer shout YELLOW when their bar turns...duhh...yellow, accomplice them, then chameleon the enmity away. while the cooldown on chameleon can be long, i think the accomplice cooldown is only like :30s.

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Oh no I didn't take anything personally lol

The melee using accomplice + chameleon to remove mage enmity is actually rather clever. Good tip.

Also, we just got through to Batraal after our smoothest Ogre kill ever using a GLA tank that did NOT have Accomplice.

That says something for people complaining that you NEED to rank like every class to tank.

hey congrats! actually the melee never uses chameleon, but if he can't accomplice one of our mages, one of our archers or something will and then chameleon the enmity away if it brings us to yellow. arcs never seem to get hate anymore, lol, even with solid battle regimens.

good luck with batraal! after team play, positioning is probably the most key aspect of that fight, much similar to the ogre battle. sometimes i think the hardest part is finding a party that will stick together after 4 runs...

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Originally Posted by makistar

hey congrats! actually the melee never uses chameleon, but if he can't accomplice one of our mages, one of our archers or something will and then chameleon the enmity away if it brings us to yellow. arcs never seem to get hate anymore, lol, even with solid battle regimens.

good luck with batraal! after team play, positioning is probably the most key aspect of that fight, much similar to the ogre battle. sometimes i think the hardest part is finding a party that will stick together after 4 runs...

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Ahaha I know what you mean :P

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

No he is saying you need a few key skills to be the most effective tank in the game. You can easily make due with just the Glad and shield skills @ 50 + having CON/THM @20 and maybe adding in MRD at 20 for +10% emnity. Getting a job to 20 is a single day affair, and can be done in 1-2hours if you know what your doing. This is by no means required.

If you want to tank with zero loss of hate for the entire fight against our current most difficult NM's then you need a few cross class skills and a party who knows there head from their ars (aka they know how to avoid spamming sac3/cure3 within the first 30 seconds of a fight.

Curaga MP costs and hate generation: this is the one area i feel regarding hate generation that needs adjustment. Right now you can avoid this issue by using ranged DD's but taking a pug into the ogre fight for DD purpose is not very advisable. The cost to cure them is too high and pushes you into the arc/thm/con/tank onry mentality. I think if they lowered the curaga hate and mp costs SLIGHTLY it would be enough to help mix up the party dynamics and help get the other jobs in the mix.

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correct me if im wrong, but isnt the mar +10 emnity a lvl 30 trait.

Dropped by to say that I love the thread title. It's so accurate.

However, as this thread probably proves, if you tell a child to wipe his tears and open his eyes he might just start yelling louder instead.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

correct me if im wrong, but isnt the mar +10 emnity a lvl 30 trait.

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Yes, and rank 30 traits for any class can be obtained as soon as rank 20 upon completing the rank 20 class quest.