Gap between MNK and DRG dps widening

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

I ToD > PB > Demolish > SP > SP> TS > DK. PB ends, 3 attacks after PB and straight into 3 GL.

Also you can't really keep your rotation static as factors, like having to dodge out of melee range, can affect when your rotation reapplies DoTs. So to maximize you need to adapt your rotation depending on the fly.

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Oh, I do. I was more or less describing what I do under circumstances where I don't have to let-up, leave the mob, or stop my rotation for more that a few seconds at a time. My DK, TS, Dem rotation is worked in at any time my buffs and dots are dropping or have dropped. I give those priority.

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Originally Posted by Escadora

You don't need a DPS meter to know that MNK DPS is situationally more devastating than other classes. All it takes is simple arithmetic lol.

(Not complaining just stating the obvious)

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Fixed

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

No. Not how I felt they should. It's how they should be performing given their selected job and given the numbers provided for each job's ceiling that has already been well established. If she out dpses every drg and smn she comes across, then they need to get better. Context.

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Saying context again isn't going to suddenly change the subject. Other factors (gear level, situations in battle, party composition) are involved then them just "needing more training".

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Originally Posted by Lev_Decimo

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Agree it's all based on how the fight plays out.

Yet some players don't want balance though they just want their job to shine every time.

Players will never be happy with their DPS as long as a different job is capable of pulling ahead. There's 1 tool that forces this obsession.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Agree it's all based on how the fight plays out.

Yet some players don't want balance though they just want their job to shine every time.

Players will never be happy with their DPS as long as a different job is capable of pulling ahead. There's 1 tool that forces this obsession.

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The human brain, capable of doing basic math.

I feel that you are jealous and trying to make a issue of a non issue.

Monk = Fast Dps, Combo Breaker, Low Dmg, Less Agro making, No TP rape.
Dragoon = Average Dps, Mini OT tank for Agro, Bonus Dmg for Bards, TP rape.

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Originally Posted by 16bitBounty

I play MNK because MNK is fun. If they were the worst DPS in the game I'd still play a MNK. Dragoons are boring.

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Says the person who doesn't even have a DRG to 50. All classes are boring at lvl 30.

What do you mean by "TP Rape"? I'm assuming it means to become tp starved and if that is the case, monks run out of TP way faster than DRGs. Also the low damage thing as monk confuses me a bit, can you elaborate on how their hits are low? Another thing, how do they have less aggro making when they tend to either be 2nd on hate or 3rd if there is an OT?

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Originally Posted by Houston009

What do you mean by "TP Rape"? I'm assuming it means to become tp starved and if that is the case, monks run out of TP way faster than DRGs. Also the low damage thing as monk confuses me a bit, can you elaborate on how their hits are low? Another thing, how do they have less aggro making when they tend to either be 2nd on hate or 3rd if there is an OT?

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Depends on the skill speed of the drg tbh. I actually, in my current gear sets, will run out of tp faster on my drg than my monk. This is due to my drg having my skill speed than my monk atm. (t9 spear will change this if it will ever drop for me!!!)

Either way I agree I don't get why most people assume monk attacks are weak >_> I see myself hitting hard on auto-attacks when i'm on monk.

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Originally Posted by Kaven

If you're party composition includes a DRG / BRD , that's where your DPS is offset against a MNK's higher DPS thresh hold. IF DRG's were to do as much damage as a MNK then the general cookie composition would always be present and MNK's would fall short of favor in terms of selection.

Use your noggins.

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False. A well played monk does much more damage than a equally played dragoon. The difference is so great a monk + bard > drg + bard.

How about we all just wait for Ninja to take the cake...

Then both DRG and MNK can be happy, because their both not 1st in the dps race.

Is the difference in terms of percentage actually bigger now or just the difference in DPS number bigger? Remember that as we get higher ilvls, the DPS gap will be bigger but percentage-wise is still the same.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

What do you mean by "TP Rape"? I'm assuming it means to become tp starved and if that is the case, monks run out of TP way faster than DRGs.

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Single target its actually fairly equal. The thing is the 80 TP of fracture hurt the monk way more than the drg, since the attack speed is higher.
If we are talking AOE however then drg is much more tp consuming. Monk AOE is actually fairly cheap in comparison to other physical classes (which it also should be).

grease lightning up time yo, not all fights are like T8.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Single target its actually fairly equal. The thing is the 80 TP of fracture hurt the monk way more than the drg, since the attack speed is higher.
If we are talking AOE however then drg is much more tp consuming. Monk AOE is actually fairly cheap in comparison to other physical classes (which it also should be).

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Neither monk nor dragoon should be using fracture.

The TP difference on single target is pretty noticeable, but the difference mostly comes down to the fact that dragoon gets 100 more from invigorate, rather than the actual TP being spent. As for AOE, Dragoon is more TP intensive because they do more damage. Given a 30 second window, dragoon will do more damage. Given a 60 second window, the numbers might start to look closer.

I take mantra on my DRG. People giving a point to MNK for having that are silly....stop being silly.

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Originally Posted by Mortechai

I take mantra on my DRG. People giving a point to MNK for having that are silly....stop being silly.

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DRG Mantra is 5%

MNK Mantra is 20%

I think MNKs win this one.

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Originally Posted by Frizbeez

A Mnk at i107+ is able to deal pass 500dps, while Drg only able to push to 420+ max.

Don't you think this is too unfair to the DRG job?

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/10charsthings

The problem isn't really the fact that MNK are so far ahead of DRG in DPS, it's the fact that DRG is doing the same or lower DPS compared to SMN, and maybe even BLM can come up to that level with the buffs in 2.3....

DRG doesn't have a lot of utility like others have said. The increase to Bard dps is the only thing that is useful, at least which MNK's doesn't have too...

SMN with their crazy easy "rotation", good mobility and instant ress, shouldn't be doing the same DPS as DRG's

IMO, MNK should be on the top of the single target DPS list, but DRG's should be right behind them. SMN and BLM should be below DRG.

In a couple of patches, DRG will have the lowest DPS of all classes in the game, cause SE doesn't seem to know that SMN has the same DPS, and BLM isn't too far behind, while MNK's is a miles ahead...

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Originally Posted by Zephyranthes

Is the difference in terms of percentage actually bigger now or just the difference in DPS number bigger? Remember that as we get higher ilvls, the DPS gap will be bigger but percentage-wise is still the same.

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I haven't really compared the two myself, but I've heard many people saying that with high level gear MNK's can get past the 500 mark, while DRG still is in the low part of the 400's.... With 500 dps, DRG's would have to do like 460 dps to be somewhere around 8-10% lower than MNK's. 8-10% lower is what I've heard most people saying the difference was earlier, but now I'm constantly hearing those kind of dps figures, which add up to as much as 20% higher dps.... I'm not sure, but either way, MNK have too big of a gap IMO.

And this isn't being "butthurt", cause DRG's are in the middle of the pack in regards to DPS, and you could get more out of other jobs. This will get more evident when BLM dps is buffed, and when BRD's dps is eventually buffed too, while DRG stays the same... Not to even mention Ninja

http://sim.ffxivguild.net/

Yeah sure insane dps difference. Seriously #learntotakeiteasy

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Originally Posted by LordMaitreya

False. A well played monk does much more damage than a equally played dragoon. The difference is so great a monk + bard > drg + bard.

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here u cant blame everything on monk dps , if bard did more dps , the piercing debuff from drg will be more noticiable and maybe drg + brd > mnk + brd

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

http://sim.ffxivguild.net/

Yeah sure insane dps difference. Seriously #learntotakeiteasy

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Even if that simulation is correct, my point that I made earlier still stands... SMN shouldn't be on par with DRG when it comes to single target DPS. That's just wrong, taking into consideration their mobility, utility and cleave damage (which is very useful in some fights).

I would like a change of Disembowel, since it makes no sense balancing a job based on a dmg buff for one other job (BRD). That won't help in dungeons or other content where you might not have a BRD, I much rather have an increase in DRG's own DPS... DRG doesn't bring more to the fight than MNK's do (in fact Mantra is 4 times better on MNK), so I don't see why they need to be ahead by that much at least. MNK should be a couple of points ahead of DRG, since some fights makes it impossible to keep up the GL, and DRG's is a little more mobile, but it shouldn't be 10%+, more like 5%. How hard a job is to play is irrelevant. It should be balanced based on utility and mobility. SMN has both gread utility and mobility, while BLM doesn't have much of either, but with their infinite mana and awesome aoe burst (can be useful), they still should be on par with SMN.

MNK > (-5%) DRG > (-7%) SMN/BLM. Haven't really been able to determine what I think BRD should have

@craiger: you remember it's a mmorpg, right? your goal in team it's to help each other... not be the best alone in your corner, it's not call of duty!

i see people complain because dragoon can't beat the monk in dps, i feel it's not true, but well... indeed your monk outshine your dragoon in T8, but it's that the case in other fight?
i have seen people say monk is easy at play.... *cough* really? why we do have soo many bad monk around? it's because this class need to be well played all the time! indeed you can miss your position but the loose of dps hurt badly!

anyway, monk ask more jobs for maintain him "amazing dps" than dragoon... then it's natural that monk have some fight where he is the best!

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

@craiger: you remember it's a mmorpg, right? your goal in team it's to help each other... not be the best alone in your corner, it's not call of duty!

i see people complain because dragoon can't beat the monk in dps, i feel it's not true, but well... indeed your monk outshine your dragoon in T8, but it's that the case in other fight?
i have seen people say monk is easy at play.... *cough* really? why we do have soo many bad monk around? it's because this class need to be well played all the time! indeed you can miss your position but the loose of dps hurt badly!

anyway, monk ask more jobs for maintain him "amazing dps" than dragoon... then it's natural that monk have some fight where he is the best!

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I rather DRG had something else that helps the team... If you don't have BRD in your group, that buff won't help you gain any overall dps. I know that you will almost always have a BRD in your group when it really matters, but not in 4 man groups and such... It's more of a principle thing really, I would like to have that added dps even without a BRD in the group. If DRG should have something that helps the group, I would rather like to see something else added.

MNK's beat DRG's in single target dps any day of the week... You can't balance a job based on how hard it is to play, cause there is plenty of good players out there who can get a lot out of MNK's, and it wouldn't really be fair to increase their dps just cause of that. I'm not an expert on DRG, but I do deliver a good amount of dps for my ilvl (on par with what I've heard is good), but I'm still constantly beat by MNK's, so there are people out there who do play them well.

There are some fights where MNK's have a hard time keeping up with GL and positioning overall, but it's not like DRG's can do perfect rotations during those conditions either, and MNK will still beat them. In those fights, SMN's will shine and out-dps DRG's all the time, and maybe even the MNK's. I have no problem with MNK's being ahead in a fight like Turn 8, but they beat DRG's in a lot of fights, and we DRG's have to have a BRD that does great dps to keep up with them. (not always the case, especially when using songs a lot)

This will all change when Dragoons get hi jump and super jump as abilities. >.>

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Originally Posted by Shori

I'm surprised at this since doesnt DRG have a 330-impact move? Think most monk has is 190. :/ I'd be realy surprised if the fists of fire, greased lightning, and generally quicker skill speed can compensate THAT much.

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It really does.

I could pull out a wall of text about this Topic, but i will tl;dr it:

It does not matter which Job in theory pulls how much dps, it comes down to the player and how effective he plays his Job. No matter which DPS you take with you, they are designed by SE equally and if you see differences in dps, it is because of the player and not because of the System.

There are some Theory-craftings going on, which hardly will work in an encouter due the mechanics and that is always left out of the calculations. I.e. A MNK pulling 500 dps on a dummy, will not pull out 500 dps on raffle. So just that in theory he can pull 500, does not mean he ever will, or that he will even get close to it in an encounter.

It's fine, come Tomorrow BLM will destroy everything anyway.

I still think the balance between DRGs and MNKs are pretty decent. Just pick the job you prefer more / better player among the two for runs.

We have to look at the bigger picture too, it's not like MNK can punch everything to the sky for every fight outside of t8 due to how GL stacks works, and while I'm at it, it's not like BLM are weak either, it's just the recent tier of raid doesn't give them much of a chance to shine with their insane aoe damage. (flare-works, anyone? :D)

If anything, I would said that SMN is more unbalance among the 5 dps. They have the highest average dps overall considering most fights, and they can raise fallen party member and have near-infinite mana too. Before incoming flames, rather than asking SE to nerf SMNs, I rather we get a little buff to the other DPS.

Nothing overkill, but for DRG's case maybe we can shorten the cd window of the jumps (DFD and backflip) and power surge. Small increase in dps, higher loldrg casualty rate due to more jumping, but hey, I think that would be fun~ :cool: /jump

And one day I said to a new DRG... "Welcome to the Jumpers Club"

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

http://sim.ffxivguild.net/

Yeah sure insane dps difference. Seriously #learntotakeiteasy

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It's enough to make some people go insane over it though. lol

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

your goal in team it's to help each other... not be the best alone in your corner

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Sadly a concept that's hard to get across players because the only thing dps meters like to point out and what players enjoy watching is their own contribution in comparison to others.

To bad the DPS meter doesn't go around telling players, you're not helping your group step it up. Since you know that stun that doesn't do damage, could've saved your tank or would've allowed more dps to go through as an example.

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Originally Posted by SokiYagami

We have to look at the bigger picture too, it's not like MNK can punch everything to the sky for every fight outside of t8 due to how GL stacks works, and while I'm at it, it's not like BLM are weak either, it's just the recent tier of raid doesn't give them much of a chance to shine with their insane aoe damage. (flare-works, anyone? :D)

If anything, I would said that SMN is more unbalance among the 5 dps. They have the highest average dps overall considering most fights, and they can raise fallen party member and have near-infinite mana too. Before incoming flames, rather than asking SE to nerf SMNs, I rather we get a little buff to the other DPS.

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Exactly right. There's a bigger picture that players don't look because the overall result is what matters.

Also yes to balance through buffs over balance through nerfs.

emh... DRG have more defense on gear, if DRG want to out DPS a MNK they would have to throw that fancy armor

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Originally Posted by Nero

I could pull out a wall of text about this Topic, but i will tl;dr it:

It does not matter which Job in theory pulls how much dps, it comes down to the player and how effective he plays his Job. No matter which DPS you take with you, they are designed by SE equally and if you see differences in dps, it is because of the player and not because of the System.

There are some Theory-craftings going on, which hardly will work in an encouter due the mechanics and that is always left out of the calculations. I.e. A MNK pulling 500 dps on a dummy, will not pull out 500 dps on raffle. So just that in theory he can pull 500, does not mean he ever will, or that he will even get close to it in an encounter.

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lol, dps doesn't just come down to the player... As a DRG myself, sure I can out-dps many MNK's if I perform well at a certain fight, but if he also performs well, then there really isn't anything I can do about it... I can't magically produce higher damage just because I play the job well. For example, at the same ilvl, a BRD will never get close to my dps, unless I perform really bad, or that certain fight is very unforgiving for a DRG (not too common). So saying it comes down to the player is just BS.

It feels like a lot of people here are just seeing every DRG as loldrgs... Just cause there are a lot of bad DRG's doesn't mean everyone is bad, and even the best DRG's out there can't compete with a MNK that knows what he's doing.

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Originally Posted by jazo

emh... DRG have more defense on gear, if DRG want to out DPS a MNK they would have to throw that fancy armor

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DRG's also have the lowest Magic Defense in the game... Which means that almost every attack that hits you, will deal more damage to a DRG than a MNK. I'm not exactly sure how much it comes down to, but it at very least makes it even. I think it's a big enough difference for MNK's to actually be more "tanky". DRG takes less physical damage, but unless your tank sucks, that won't really help you in raids...

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Originally Posted by jazo

emh... DRG have more defense on gear, if DRG want to out DPS a MNK they would have to throw that fancy armor

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I would make that change in a heartbeat considering monk has more magic defense.
Physical defense is pretty much useless unless you are tanking.

My point is, they are somewhat balanced, complexity of play, certain situations, movement, offense, defense, aid to group etc.

Problem here is that elitist people in dungeons/raids/trials just consider one or two aspects for a class and if you screw up a little that makes you the non desirable part of the group regardless of class.

Both MNK and DRG depends a lot on the skill and awareness of the player, don't go to the "no-x-fox-only-final-destination" way to compare them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-7gmds2njg

Yes, like I mentioned in my previous post, you have to see the overall content. I still stand firm on my point that DRG and MNK are rather balance. Then again, the defense part is a bad point to bring up lol

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Originally Posted by jazo

emh... DRG have more defense on gear, if DRG want to out DPS a MNK they would have to throw that fancy armor

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Fist of Earth saves monk in situations that dragoon would die in.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Fists_of_Earth

Heres a link if didn't know what it does.

Dragoon's niche isn't single target dps, but 2-3 targets dps. Sadly most people aren't aware of this, hell most Dragoons aren't aware of this. It doesn't really matter anyway since there aren't any fights, that matter, like that at all.

Don't worry, Ninja will come out and both Dragoons and Monks can complain about them being OP.

This will be my last post in this thread now :) But I just have to add one thing...

I don't want DRG to have the same DPS as MNK, that's not my point. Cause like some of you have mentioned several times now, looking at the bigger picture, MNK and DRG aren't too badly balanced... But, I think it could be a little closer.

That's not the biggest problem though, the bigger problem is SMN... I have no problem with BLM getting buffed, cause they don't have very good mobility. SMN on the other hand, are very mobile, and they still put out the same DPS as DRG...

SMN win against DRG almost all of the time, if they know what they are doing, especially on fights with much movement, where they also beat MNK's... They have better mobility, utility and have superior cleave damage.

What I think many DRG's, including myself, are kinda upset about, is that DRG doesn't really excel at anything. BRD have the best utility in the game, BLM has the best AOE (with infinite mana), SMN has everything... MNK has highest single target dps, DRG has middle of the pack dps, almost no utility, lowest magic defense in game etc... Burst damage isn't really a great argument for it either, cause they don't really have that much higher than anyone else.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

Dragoon's niche isn't single target dps, but 2-3 targets dps. Sadly most people aren't aware of this, hell most Dragoons aren't aware of this. It doesn't really matter anyway since there aren't any fights, that matter, like that at all.

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You do realize that SMN does way more dps on 2-3 targets than DRG ? I haven't done any tests, but I'm pretty sure BLM does more dps on 3 targets as well.... Either way, your argument just makes it look worse

EDIT: I just want to add that I'm happily playing DRG as my main, and I won't change to any other job... but that doesn't mean I don't care about the balancing. If everyone would just play what they like and don't care about balancing, then nobody would have wanted the BLM buff that's coming... Feeling like you matter is part of the fun in the game.

I haven't played my Drg in a long time she is still wearing mostly alagan and onion gear but in critiacl hits it's possible to get over 700 even higher dps the only difference I know with my monk is that damage is consistent. You have to move around the target to get maximum damage when all the drg had to do was jump to reset the crit table. Seriously what happened to the drg from where mine is to where it's at now?