Do NOT make the same mistake as FFXI.

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Originally Posted by OminousAnonymous

Blizzards fix for the melee vs ranged problem was figuring out ways of making it even. Like say for instance. Theres some fights where melee have to run away from blast casted by boss, while ranged have to dodge fire he spits in the back. etc.

Also, melee have the advantage in big movement fights dps wise, becuase they don't have to stop attacking to follow the boss and such, whereas ranged have to stopcasting to move.

The fights usually go back and forth, and in the end, you need both ranged and melee.

And then theres Utility that you have to take in consideration, like most melee's have short cd's on there spell cancels. whereas you need ranged usually for kiting fights, cuase they usually have slows, and "jumps" and such.

Sorry if some of this has ben mentioned. I didn't read the whole post XD

But ffxiv is still early, and theres not much important utility so far, except for caster buffs. and thats most of the problem, melees haven't developed their niche. yet.

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I'm totally agreed with you there. Also, people need to remember that this is the first major step of basically rebuilding the battle system from scratch. It's not going to be perfect the first time, even if they had a PTR (which they will be doing in the future in case anyone forgot). What they definitely need to avoid is total complacency with balancing, which is what happened with FFXI for a long time. There, you got very minor changes every once in a while, to only a couple jobsat a time, and the end result is that jobs like Dragoon were anathema for years. I really don't want to see that kind of class favoritism in this game, especially when the system is so beautifully flexible.

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Originally Posted by OJtheLIONKing

especially when the system is so beautifully flexible.

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you mean "used to be so beautifully flexible," right?

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Originally Posted by LuxLex

you mean "used to be so beautifully flexible," right?

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It still is, compared to other games, but that's a function of party balance. Hopefully the job system will make it so people can specialize for parties and generalize for solo, but that's still a while off.

Not only rebuilding the system, but when the "advanced" jobs come in although this is my only speculation and a good example, GLDs can be PLDs able to cure themselves and the group while bolstering defenses. CONs will be able to go WHM and or BLM increasing thier strengths in whatever role they play. THMs can go RDM who will probably get "Refresh" (I know this sounds very ffxi'ish but thats what I get from the direction) As for getting rid of mix and match classes, I do remember Yoshi saying those were going to be meant for out of major group as the new jobs will be alot more party oriented. So although I hate to say wait, and don't cry wolf now.... I would hold off til we see what Yoshi plans as he did indeed say it would be a rough start.

Im not going to spoil the dungeon for anyone. What I will say is that proper party balance and proper use of the classes how they are in the game right now and you can avoid the extreme party composition of 3+ DoM 3+ Archer and a tank. Don't get me wrong, I doubt things are balanced great, but it is no where near so unbalanced you don't have any other choice but to run 3+ DoM 3+ Archer.

My experience with into the dark did prove to be a great learning experience and was fun as hell. I do have to say I'm slightly disappointed how easy you can choose to run the dungeon. However, it is kind of one of those things where you resort to doing the easy way just to get your first run done. Then you can start to worry about actual progression as a player and start to learn to play. However doing this does increase the difficulty of completing the dungeon but I do find it enjoyable. To each his own I suppose.

Final words. I don't play melle dps, but I have seen your pain but I would also like to let you know there is light at the end of the tunnel and I believe if your GROUP puts in the time the dungeon will provide enjoyability for MANY party members and many party compositions. I look forward to running various party setups and to try to find the ones that won't neglect any of the people that play with me.

They said "class changes in waves to make classes more unique" and I wasn't okay with it, release class balancing at one time ass! And don't give conj class specific spells that are very useful while no other class has spells half that effing useful. Conj Arc Gla, you aren't those three GTFO right? I mean I don't want to QQ but this is just like XI in terms of certain people being left out due to leveling a certain class. I've been a thm day one, I leveled it in the open beta, not because it was OP but because I wanted to be an enfeebler, I'd be okay with SE making the thm job a dedicated enfeebler and not really a nuker, but just gimping the class completely was a wrong move, half gimp it, and then rebalance it to fit a different role properly, not rip away healing power and make it a half ass dd.

@Zaviermhigo

I understand your frustrations. I main THM as well and I have had the most fun I have ever had on THM in the past 3 days. I do feel like I got shafted in some ways but I also feel like I got heavily buffed in others. I still have yet to crack on the nut on enfeebling as THM post 1.18. I am looking forward to this learning experience. However, it it ends up that I really cant choose to enfeeble very well as thm with the current state of the game I am going to be upset as well.

I hope they will release 1.19 in the middle of August. We will be able to see 1.18's changes in its full context once that happens, so we can see if the Jobs really do make a difference or not.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

I hope they will release 1.19 in the middle of August. We will be able to see 1.18's changes in its full context once that happens, so we can see if the Jobs really do make a difference or not.

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If they don't measure up by at least 1.20 I'm not sure how I'll feel about it all. inb4 'here's the door', as a player of the game who has stuck around since CB and OB, I have a right to be justifiably let down and upset over the direction this game is headed. :/

Jobs should be an alternate way of playing, or an enhanced way of fighting. What this patch has done is the opposite of that. It's forced Conjurers into the WHM position, taking away any flexibility the game had prior to the patch to alternating that job with the Thaus.

I think people forget that there's a disproportionate amount of Melee classes to mage classes. I'd love to see one of the melee classes' have something like incapacitation or BR's taken away from them in the future and blindly given to one class.
Either people are completely lacking in empathy, or they have no idea what they're talking about and just foster misconceptions about why this patch is such a big deal to mages.

I lack any empathy for jobs that were soloing NMs and crying over things they shouldn't be doing anyway.

I expect a lot of this frustration with "pigeonholing classes" to be cleared up with the job system implementation.

Hopefully.

The all time greatest FF11 mistake:

"STOP ATTACKING, YOU'RE FEEDING THE MOB TOO MUCH TP!"

^ - this is the one true mistake that will cause me to seriously not play. I tolerate it enough in FF11, and won't endure that torture again. As long as the game doesn't turn into "stand around and wait" then i'll be good.

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Originally Posted by Physic

3 archers prolly 2 con and 1 glad. but this is what people wanted, when they said unique, they more meant i want no one to be able to do anything unless the top rated classes are there, and of course they would be selecting those classes to play.

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Yes. Don't say that some of us on this forum didn't warn you.

More defined role = some parties are better than others.

Oh hindsight, you old dog.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

This is a great example of how raising the MP costs of cures affects not only mages, but every other melee class besides Gladiator. With that one change now so many thousands of people are going to be left out.

MAGE STRIKE 2011.

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And the irony is the vast number of MRDs in both your threads telling us we're babies and we should suck it up.

Who's laughing now, MRDs? I just got to the last room of Darkhold w/o you and your LNC friends. :D

^ That is sarcasm, btw. I truly, truly, truly hate this situation. I just wish when I had complained about what this was doing to CON people had spent less time telling me I'm an idiot who can't play CON and thinking about how it would actually impact them personally on their job.

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Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

The all time greatest FF11 mistake:

"STOP ATTACKING, YOU'RE FEEDING THE MOB TOO MUCH TP!"

^ - this is the one true mistake that will cause me to seriously not play. I tolerate it enough in FF11, and won't endure that torture again. As long as the game doesn't turn into "stand around and wait" then i'll be good.

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But you're 100% cool with the fact that is how CON are expected to play now?
I mean you didn't say you are, I'm asking if you are.

Lots of people seem to think it's "no big deal" that I spend 1/3 of the fight or more standing around waiting while other people do shit. That it's a warranted and expected aspect of being a mage - trust me when I tell you, it's just as much "not fun" as that stop feeding it TP shit. I was there in XI with you, man. (Not literally).

Just said all of this yesterday to my LS. This MP issue is not going to affect mages at all. Mage classes will always get parties and more often now. People will shoot for high MP load parties for guaranteed success now. Will be 6 mage classes (4 conj 2 Thaum) and 2 Glads. Even archers will get left at home eventually if the tanks have real trouble with high end spike damage. Two conjs will heal while the other two spam Conj DoTs and hit with elemental spells as their buffs pop up, minimizing hate control issues. The two thaums will spam Dia, Bio, Poison, Slow, Paralyze etc. or one will assist the tanks with Initiation and the Siphon attribute spells to help the tanks and throw in a Sac 3 here and there to let the Conj healers get some rest or mana burn in emergencies. They can also raise people if someone drops without a conj healer missing a beat.

Either way it looks pretty grim for DD classes unless they really restrain themselves. Big numbers will be bad news for DD classes.

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Originally Posted by Shai

But you're 100% cool with the fact that is how CON are expected to play now?
I mean you didn't say you are, I'm asking if you are.

Lots of people seem to think it's "no big deal" that I spend 1/3 of the fight or more standing around waiting while other people do shit. That it's a warranted and expected aspect of being a mage - trust me when I tell you, it's just as much "not fun" as that stop feeding it TP shit. I was there in XI with you, man. (Not literally).

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Well said, both of you. Really I hadn't thought about the 'stand around and wait for the tank to get hate back' like in XI. Warriors doing too much damage and having to stop swinging their axe, black mages being limited to one or two spells per fight, the horror.

A playstyle can be new and still unique. The order of moves you use, how fast you use them, when you throw in your Chameleon, or whatever the case is, however if you enjoying using AoE's constantly I would hope you won't use AoE's when their's 5 mobs close by because it's your playstyle. I haven't been playing long so I guess my old system playstyle wasn't uberly affected after this patch and I haven't fought the Ogre yet, but changing your playstyle doesn't strip you of individuality it's how you change it to get the job done when needed that shows part of your individuality. Linkshells will probably start easin' up on class specifics once they've figured out everything there is that can go wrong and what they could do to mitigate those. You go off of things you know to learn. Eventually, they'll slip a little MRD Lalafell in there with 2 ARC's 1 THM 1 CON 2 GLA. THM's probably gonna have to Back-up heal to make sure the poor little guy stays alive. It just shows how the people begging for strategy don't take risks that help build a LS. Just my two cents though, too early for me to make this organized; To Subway~

Hmmm! I remember reading the forums and people saying no more EASY MODE, but you only take the classes that make the boss fights less challenging. On a side note I'd rather spam 11111 all day instead of waiting to take action.

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Originally Posted by Vhile

Hmmm! I remember reading the forums and people saying no more EASY MODE, but you only take the classes that make the boss fights less challenging. On a side note I'd rather spam 11111 all day instead of waiting to take action.

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Hell yeah I liked the way it was before the patch!!!! and auto attack is lame as slow

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Originally Posted by Sigtyr

Of course they take the easiest route. Using 1 glad/3+Conj/3+archer is all reward, practically no risk.

Why bother giving yourself a headache?

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Because people asked for hard mode, remember?

Final Fantasy XIV will also be known as Final Fantasy XI-2 Electric Boogaloo!
In all serious though, I'm going to make a new character and try it out with this latest patch just to get a better idea what they changed.

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Originally Posted by Vhile

Because people asked for hard mode, remember?

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We didn't ask for unbalanced hard mode. :p

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

You know why I say this in the subject heading?

Because there are people looking for inordinately LARGE numbers of a specific class, for Dzemael Darkhold. This is the kind of pigeonholing we need to avoid for classes.

I saw someone shouting in Ul'dah for three archers, for his party at Dzmael Darkhold. That is almost half a full party. There is something wrong with this picture, in terms of class balancing.

Does anyone remember when Dragoon was not loved in FFXI? Does anyone remember when Dark Knight was not loved in FFXI?

If this is the direction FFXIV is taking, then I want no part of it.

I do not want to relive my experiences in FFXI in XIV.

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This is one of the drawbacks of having a strategy-based system. People will find a "best" strategy to beat something, and then stick only to that strategy, and after that it spreads like wildfire. After a while, it becomes canon... with almost a religious following. The "only one good way" to do something results in high demand for specific classes. I don't really see that as a flaw with FF MMORPGs, but a deficiency in human character. Let's face it, humans aren't that creative or intelligent on average -- we mostly mimic and follow the leader. (I study primates, and I see the same thing in other species.) I really don't see how SE could design their game to get around that fundamental trait short of going back to mindless button-mashing and jobs that can be intermixed any which way.

Trust me -- I don't like it either, but after preaching 'til I was blue in the face on FFXI about there being more than one good solution to various problems and being either ignored or told I didn't know what I was talking about (by people who hadn't tried anything else but the "conventional wisdom"), I really don't see a good way to change it.

Another classic example is the recruiting feature in the game. Most people expect a LFG flag and search. The recruiting system works the other way around and could be a superior system in most cases, but because it doesn't work the way everyone expects, it's seen as a flawed/failed system. If people can't think outside the box, then this game may go to hell in a hand-basket.

It's too bad they are on their way to making this into FFXI-2. I saw it a long time ago, with almost every comm rep post about changes hey plan to make, almost all wreaked of FFXI. Making certain classes unfavorable is just one of the things XI was good at, and its coming here. This is only the beginning. Even members of my linkshell are saying theyre choice party is "Sword, Bow, Bow, Curse, Illusion, Illusion, Illusion, Illusion". all they did was swap one arc out with thaum, even tho that's not necessary to do.

We NEEDED to have attribute saving per class and recalculating, propper stats on gear, Field monsters giving the propper SP per kill. But they just totally left these out of the patch. Hell, I thought the addition of Jobs would have been important for this patch. They preached and preached that classes would be for solo play and jobs would be for group play, yet they are forcing this group content on us with no Jobs and only classes meant for solo play.

I dont know what theyre thinking anymore.... Maybe the heat is getting to them.

well it doesnt matter what works it matter what people think, and people think archers are the ultimate DD.

SE need to make more mob strong or weak to slashing,blunt,percing, elements, etc.. to balence out a party it there but not really potent enough to notice it.

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Originally Posted by indira

well it doesnt matter what works it matter what people think, and people think archers are the ultimate DD.

SE need to make more mob strong or weak to slashing,blunt,percing, elements, etc.. to balence out a party it there but not really potent enough to notice it.

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Given that all weapons have affinity on them youd thing they would have addressed that a long time ago. All weapons and attacks have had affinities to certain damage types since the beginning, but they show no noticeable differences at all. There wouldn't have been a need for calls for archer nerf and conj buff or anything if they had addressed that one issue. Some things they need to implement for things to work right, and that is one of them.

THM THM GLA GLA ARC ARC ARC, thats not balance, CON CON GLA GLA ARC ARC ARC, thats not balance.

Balance is being able to have any combination of classes do something. This is SE fault for making mobs stack heavily against close up melee. I'm a thm, and sure I feel a lil screwed, but damn making mobs pretty much eat mrd and lnc souls is mean, especially since people were viewing them as useless pre this patch.

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Originally Posted by Reika

It's too bad they are on their way to making this into FFXI-2. I saw it a long time ago, with almost every comm rep post about changes hey plan to make, almost all wreaked of FFXI. Making certain classes unfavorable is just one of the things XI was good at, and its coming here. This is only the beginning. Even members of my linkshell are saying theyre choice party is "Sword, Bow, Bow, Curse, Illusion, Illusion, Illusion, Illusion". all they did was swap one arc out with thaum, even tho that's not necessary to do.

We NEEDED to have attribute saving per class and recalculating, propper stats on gear, Field monsters giving the propper SP per kill. But they just totally left these out of the patch. Hell, I thought the addition of Jobs would have been important for this patch. They preached and preached that classes would be for solo play and jobs would be for group play, yet they are forcing this group content on us with no Jobs and only classes meant for solo play.

I dont know what theyre thinking anymore.... Maybe the heat is getting to them.

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my problem is they said classes would still offer solo potential, and jobs would be the focus of party play, but looks like these changes have

made classes not very solo oriented, and more party focused, and overall decreased job diversity (mrd/pgl/lnc are even more similar, although con is more dif than thaum. so they made two classes different and 3 classes the same, net loss of diversity.

they also chose to accentuate the strengths of 3 classes while decentuating or straight nerfing the strengths of the other 4, maybe this is all linked to jobs, but jobs arent even out of the planning phases till 1.20 soooo your going to be living with this balance for awhile.

They said they'd do further balancing in later patches, there could be a 1.18a,1.18b, you get the picture. Right now I'm a little pissed, cause this isn't challenging in the slightest its just annoying again, they don't even know what difficult is, they just know "make it annoying that should work". I'll be pissed for now, but I'm not gonna ragequit, that'd be silly, I'll wait to see if they balance crap.

@Reika

I thought we would have seen the start of the new jobs going along with this patch. I thought I read something that the r45 dungeon was to have some careful planning in the roles each person was to bring. And I mean that in the way that you needed a unique makeup where everyone could contribute something different, not purposely stack the same 1-2 jobs.

Now with FFXI, I had drg and whm leveled to 75 back for those days. I loved playing drg but what was it good for? Birds, Royal Jelly bcnm and uh...birds. When I leveled whm, it was to be a subjob for drg but I enjoyed leveling it so much I decided to take it to 75 also. Why else? Because one of the reasons was that I knew if I had whm I could have an easier time getting into events. Even if I wanted to play drg instead, I was always asked to go whm to everything because I was more useful there. There was another person who did get to go as drg to the same events, but only because it was his only job leveled.

And here I am on my lancer getting worried again that the one class/job I would like to play the most is now going to be low tier for clearing content.

Right now the patch feels like an energy drink to me. I got hyper, I did some things, now the rush is wearing off and I feel worse than I did before the patch hit. I'm not putting the game down yet, but I'm in need of a break to continue to wait and see if SE can pull this through with the rest of their summer content plans.

"What?! You mean people only want the strongest classes when they do something really hard and new?"

Yeah that's an FFXI exclusive feature right there. Welcome to MMOs, deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

"What?! You mean people only want the strongest classes when they do something really hard and new?"

Yeah that's an FFXI exclusive feature right there. Welcome to MMOs, deal with it.

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So, THM was nerfed, why? What is the point of nerfing classes for "balance" if you aren't going to have any balance anyway?

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Originally Posted by Demacia

"What?! You mean people only want the strongest classes when they do something really hard and new?"

Yeah that's an FFXI exclusive feature right there. Welcome to MMOs, deal with it.

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durrr hurrr, i don't read.
It's not just that Archer is the best, Archer is far and away the best.

This is when rebalancing needs to be done.

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Originally Posted by LuxLex

So, THM was nerfed, why? What is the point of nerfing classes for "balance" if you aren't going to have any balance anyway?

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Things tend to get nerfed when they're overpowered (aka unbalanced). Mages are just fine now.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

"What?! You mean people only want the strongest classes when they do something really hard and new?"

Yeah that's an FFXI exclusive feature right there. Welcome to MMOs, deal with it.

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the problem is, in thier balancing patch, they imbalance the classes way more.

before pug was defense and offense and survival, now its just offense
before marauder was defense and offense and survival and aoe, now its just the lowest DD
before lancer was DD and support, now its just DD
everything thm can do, con can do almost as well or better, except for the fact they got whm shackles on their hands and feet now.

it would be one thing if difficulty showed the imbalances already inherent, but thier job fixes were actually them making the classes even further imbalanced.

And yeah the constant goal of MMO developers is to try to correct the imbalances in the game, some of these are the same problems they and others have already dealt with, why create it again?

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Originally Posted by Physic

the problem is, in thier balancing patch, they imbalance the classes way more.

before pug was defense and offense and survival, now its just offense
before marauder was defense and offense and survival and aoe, now its just the lowest DD
before lancer was DD and support, now its just DD

it would be one thing if difficulty showed the imbalances already inherent, but thier job fixes were actually them making the classes even further imbalanced.

And yeah the constant goal of MMO developers is to try to correct the imbalances in the game, some of these are the same problems they and others have already dealt with, why create it again?

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Are you one of those dudes that thinks PGL can't defend itself because it can no longer spam light strike and cures?

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Things tend to get nerfed when they're overpowered (aka unbalanced). Mages are just fine now.

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Ok, you're free to believe that, but I don't.

Well part of the problem is the thinking that "some classes should be nerfed, instead of beefing up some classes, and changing mobs qualities." Another part is they made mobs in the r45 dungeons eat mrd lnc souls. I do agree tone down OP classes, but in the same vein beef up classes. Conj needed a role but thm could take a few more things to be a dd properly. MRD and LNC need the most in the whole game, and didn't receive the balancing/beefing up they deserved in my opinion. ARC/CON/GLA and maybe PUG/THM are the only classes now, but it doesn't mean that eventually this game will be balanced. Obviously when jobs come out, I don't think anyone will be touching classes anymore.

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Originally Posted by LuxLex

Ok, you're free to believe that, but I don't.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KazOD98mqr4

Don't mind me just tanking, nuking, debuffing, and healing all at once.