Protesting Frontlines

I don't even know what my options for gear are going to be, PVP stuff will be missing a secondary stat and my PVE gear just has lots of parry/accuracy on it. Maybe a horrifying mix of allagan/high allagan/CT gear with dragoon accessories.

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Originally Posted by Mupod

I don't even know what my options for gear are going to be, PVP stuff will be missing a secondary stat and my PVE gear just has lots of parry/accuracy on it. Maybe a horrifying mix of allagan/high allagan/CT gear with dragoon accessories.

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I was thinking about this too and to be honest if it's going to be 24 man teams looking into vitality might be important because tanks are going to be the first ones in and the last ones out and in any game I've played with a zerg the first one in is the first one targetted.

I'm planning to be more of a guided missile than a tank. I am very good at eliminating single targets.

But yeah, I put my time in as a warrior in WoW's alterac valley. Charge in, kill 2-3 people, push them back a few metres, die and respawn then do it again.

They really should have revamped PVP abilities to have shorter cooldowns but weaker effects...5 minute cooldowns in a battleground situation are kinda dumb.

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Originally Posted by Rawk

.... with no real compensation to tweaking pvp gear to allow an advantage, I will be protesting frontlines. I will be doing this by queueing Naked as often as I can. Why naked? Because I'm saying "Hello SE, you don't care about gear anyway, I might as well be naked".

If anyone would like to join, please do so.

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Oh you mean th egear you got from PvP trades....?!

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Originally Posted by Mupod

I'm planning to be more of a guided missile than a tank. I am very good at eliminating single targets.

But yeah, I put my time in as a warrior in WoW's alterac valley. Charge in, kill 2-3 people, push them back a few metres, die and respawn then do it again.

They really should have revamped PVP abilities to have shorter cooldowns but weaker effects...5 minute cooldowns in a battleground situation are kinda dumb.

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I agree, the cooldowns are pretty ridiculous but maybe we'll see changes to that in 2.3 since they're already announced that there will be tweaks to pvp again such as changes to sleep.
I definately play the complete opposite of you then since I just aim to harass as much as possible while everyone else does work lol. The longer I can stay in the middle of everything and make everyone miserable the more satisfied I am even if I don't get kills.

Morale stat was a bad idea from the start. Skill and skill alone is what should separate players in pvp. Not which player has the better gear. Morale gave players an advantage over one another. Now in Frontline, everybody will be equal. People who farmed 4v4 pvp won't dominate because of their high morale stat.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Morale stat was a bad idea from the start. Skill and skill alone is what should separate players in pvp. Not which player has the better gear. Morale gave players an advantage over one another. Now in Frontline, everybody will be equal. People who farmed 4v4 pvp won't dominate because of their high morale stat.

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Morale doesn't provide an advantage over players, because it's not that powerful of a stat. Even if you only have skill separating players, new players to PvP are going to be grossly underskilled compared to existing ones, and get owned anyway. If they do some Wolves' Den to obtain Morale gear on the other hand, they'd enter Frontlines with some skill from their time in Wolves' Den. People who get utterly owned in Frontlines on day one will not be queuing again, I imagine.

Morale was a good idea to provide a separate sense of progression for PvP from PvE; you do PvP to obtain better PvP gear, just like you do PvE to obtain better PvE gear. That ensures there is a core community of PvPers working for the gear and fleshing out queues, as opposed to getting endless queue times when you want to queue for fun.

If SE hadn't dropped the ball on Wolves' Den, it would actually function properly. That's why they should delay Frontlines and rework Wolves' Den, rather than just trying to use Frontlines as a band-aid and letting it die in a few months once they hype wears off.

I really do not get where this notion that, without Morale, everyone will be equal, is coming from. No. People who obtained Morale gear did so by participating in PvP (sans win trading), they're going to be far more skilled for that fact alone. People who are only just stepping foot in PvP because Frontlines looks fun are going to get destroyed either way. At least if Morale was there, they could complain that Morale gives others an advantage, which we could reply with "So go obtain some Morale gear yourself", by doing which they'd get skilled. Instead we literally just have to say "Play better", which comes off as far more insulting, nor does it encourage players to use Wolves' Den.

With or without Morale, there is going to be a rift between existing PvPers and people trying out Frontlines. Morale provides an easy way to close the gap, even if it doesn't seem to at face value. If skill is the only deciding factor, then it's unfair because they have months worth of experience over you. If Morale is a factor, then it's unfair because they have Morale gear that you can go out and obtain as well, and learn how to PvP in the process.... With Morale there is very clearly something you can easily do to close the gap.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

(not even trying to use real numbers, just illustration purposes)

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Perhaps because, if you used real numbers, you'd realize Morale does not offer a significant bonus. Illustrating a point with pure hyperbole doesn't really help your point at all.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Saying "Go spend 3 months gearing up and come back" is a huge turn off for many people, and honestly not something anyone wants to hear.

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Three months? Are you serious, it took me around a week to get i70 gear, and that is plenty of Morale for an event capped at i80. And that was with PvP rewards as they are, I'd actually suggest SE adjusts that to make the first set of gear faster to obtain.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

The mere fact you say "If skill is the only deciding factor, then it's unfair" is near mind blowing to me.

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Guess it's a good thing that's not what I'm saying then.

I'm saying you cannot discern someones skill from a distance, you can discern their gear. Gear is also an indication of their skill, if they have Morale gear, you'll be aware that they've put time into PvP and could be skilled.

If you see someone in Coil 2 gear in Frontlines, all you know is that they've cleared Coil and are skilled at PvE. You have no basis to judge them on PvP until they start hitting you in the face. If they have PvP gear on, because PvP gear does something, you know they've participated in PvP a fair amount.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

If morale is not a significant difference, then its pointless to care about it being removed. Either it makes a difference and gives an advantage or it doesn't. Pick a side.

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It isn't significant, but it's enough to provide PvP with a sense of progression. Without progression PvP wont last.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Also if I misunderstood your take on skill it was from this sentence -

If skill is the only deciding factor, then it's unfair because they have months worth of experience over you.

If I misread that I apologize.

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That's different.

Do you think it's fair to pit new players against experienced players? Do you really think new players are going to be anything but frustrated by that vast gulf in skill?

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Originally Posted by Tandy

And as far as not having exact numbers goes, it doesnt matter for the point I was making....which is that more damage from a pvp stat is more damage. Thats not something up for debate. If you do more damage than another player with the same skill based purely on a pvp stat...no reaction or decision made in game can alter that fact. IT IS PURELY HIGHER DAMAGE PERIOD. I think that isnt unclear even with numbers I clearly stated are just to illustrate the point. I could have used 5 damage vs 6 damage and its the same thing.

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In that case, everyone in PvP should have their race normalized. Can't go having people with a minor advantage of slightly more/less VIT now, can we? Keeper of the Moon verses Seawolves would just be unfair, that's a 90HP difference right there.

Your "illustration" also only works in a 1v1 scenario, which is fairly ridiculous itself. Yes, in a 1v1 scenario, Morale will make a difference. I guess it's a good thing you're always part of a team in PvP then?

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Im trying hard to put this in a way that cant be misunderstood, but anytime your new to something, I would hope you go into with a healthy realization your skills might not be as good as someone else. Some people catch on to something fast, some slow....but yes its fair to put new players in a 72 man pvp match with people who have more experience. The odds of one team being all newbies vs a team of all vets is probably not good. Its easiest to learn large scale pvp as a new player by PLAYING with the more experienced people on your team after all. Its not a 4 vs 4 match where each person has a huge part in the success or failure, its large scale 24 v 24 v 24 where its less focused on each person.

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I guess that's why <insert Sports League here> pits the under 5s against the world champions so regularly.

Yes, there are always people better than you (unless your Morgan Freeman), but that doesn't mean your first attempt at a piece of content should be against those people. Putting all the new PvPers up against all the experienced PvPers is absolutely stupid, and will only server to piss off the new players and discourage them from trying again. This is why making Frontlines, a 72 man event, the entry level PvP content is absolutely insane.

It's utterly absurd. In a baking competition, you do not enter your son, because everyone in the competition has practiced for it, and your son still picks his nose. You do not enter someone in the F1 who's just passed their driving test. I could go on, but the point should be clear now; putting absolute newbs in with veterans is a huge mistake and it certainly has no possible equivalent in the real world. You simply do not make competitions so one sided.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Frontlines is going to be good entry pvp for the simple fact with 72 people you have less personal responsibility and more group responsibility. 4v4 pvp is a totally different ballgame compared to mass pvp. One mistake in arena can lose the match, one newbie screwing up with 23 others? not as big a deal.

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By that logic, Crystal Tower would be a drama free environment.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Since clearly your to the point your just wanting to argue I am done then. At this point I am not sure what you even want, them to keep morale in game and have tier frontlines for each skill bracket? If you honestly think this game has the population to support 72 man pvp matches for newbies, intermediates and max geared I hate to break it to you but they may as well remove all pvp cause it wont work.

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Really? It wasn't clear that I want Wolves' Den to actually remain an event, rather than being completely obsolete and forgotten, by making it viable for training and obtaining gear before doing Frontlines? That I don't want beginners entering Frontlines, getting destroyed over and over for 30 minutes, and then never queuing again? That I want PvP to have a functioning community based around progression, rather than being "just for fun", because XIVs PvP is no where near popular enough to sustain that beyond the initial hype?

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Its a lot harder to do that when if you mess up against real people, your team mates can try to pick up the slack because its not an instant wipe from a boss mob.

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So... In PvP if a player messes up, you can pick up the slack... Yet if your enemy has a slight advantage from Morale, you're doomed? If someone tunnel visions and keeps waking an enemy you're trying to sleep, you can recover from that, but you cannot recover from a minor stats difference?

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Honestly, and I am being serious as someone who has played MMO's since Everquest 1 and done pvp in every one that has it....I have NEVER played a game where the arena pvp was considered the "training" pvp and the large scale pvp was skilled. Arena or 4v4 is usually the "ranked" or skilled pvp.....with tournaments and competitions and seasons/ladders and assorted benefits and bragging rights. Large scale pvp has always been about fun and enjoyment from my experience, but if you can tell me some games that have arena 4v4 as training and large scale as competitions I will gladly look into it.

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What I'm suggesting is closer to;

Wolves' Den (low bracket).
Frontlines (mid bracket).
Wolves' Den (high bracket).

Rather than doing Wolves' Den for training, then Frontlines for competitive play. You start with Wolves' Den to get a feel for PvP and obtain i70, you do Frontlines for fun, but Morale and Wolves' Den remain there to create a stable community keeping the numbers up in both queues, and then if you want, you do the high bracket for competitive play.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Honestly, that would never ever work. Wolves den will play totally different from large scale pvp. I am not being argumentative here, just stating a fact. Anyone who has done 4v4 and large scale pvp will tell you the same if they are honest. Everything is different, from strategies you use to how the fights are even won 4v4 is killing everyone ASAP, large scale is taking objectives. Its apples and oranges to compare the 2 to each other in anything but the simple fact they are both player vs player. Wolves den and Frontlines are totally separate beasts and they will attract somewhat different crowds. SE needs to see about adding tournaments and seasons to 4v4 to give incentive to play it.

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There is still overlap though. You cannot take objectives if your team is being destroyed because your healers don't know how to kite DPS. You cannot take objectives if your team is failing because they don't know how to use/react to PvP skills. Yes, they're different, but that doesn't mean players wouldn't benefit from 4v4. It is a lot easier to realize what is going on in a 4v4 environment than it is in a 24v24v24 one.

It's not like I'm suggesting you get stuck in Wolves' Den forever, either. Make the initial grind much quicker, so people get into i70 earlier. That would mean anyone who wants to progress in PvP can, since Wolves' Den would still be an active piece of content for leveling/gear purposes. i70 is more than adequate for i80 capped Frontlines, while still leaving room for i90 as an improvement to entice players into a higher, non-competitive bracket.

With Frontlines just for fun, Wolves' Den remains as it is, if not worse. With Frontlines as part of the progression and for fun, Wolves' Den gets a breath of new life.

"Real" PvP should be the competitive element, and that is something that's missing, but if you have Frontlines for fun, and Wolves' Den as the "real" PvP, then that just means your "real" PvP is grinding up the ranks, rather than proper competitive play. One of the main things I had been suggesting is making the grind more manageable. I agree, if left as it is, the difference between Morale would be somewhat unfair, simply because of how much of a grind it is to obtain, that's why they should change the grind though. Morale should only be a small advantage that is enough to entice people into the (much more tolerable) Wolves' Den grind.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Also, if you gate frontlines behind doing 4v4, you will lose a LARGE amount of the population you would otherwise have. I know for myself and people I know, we all hate 4v4 these days (just too old to deal with the crap) but love mass scale pvp. If I had to go through wolves den to do frontlines? I wouldnt bother and I know we are not alone in that. Arena pvp is a huge turn off for a lot of people period.

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Oh, I'm not suggesting out right locking Frontlines behind Wolves' Den. I'm suggesting keeping Morale so that people can be enticed into doing Wolves' Den, rather than it becoming a forgotten piece of content. The bonus it provides is manageable, but it should be enough to entice people into Wolves' Den. When it comes to gear people will do anything for stats (See: Novus).

You should be able to jump into Frontlines with PvE gear and enjoy it. Morale does not prevent that, all Morale does is provide a reason to also use Wolves' Den to obtain such gear. Absolute worst case when it comes to PvE verses PvP gear in Frontlines, I think they should just add a buff that gives you Morale, but have its bonus capped at, lets say, i65. That provides PvE players with less Morale than PvP players, but it significantly closes the gap on what Morale does for PvP verses PvE.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

And the problem with that becomes, if both are PvP and both use morale then both should give the means to buy the gear, and then no one would do wolves den because Frontlines would be an easier source of gear. And at this point, Frontlines very well might give marks to buy the gear even if morale isnt valid in it, just because we have no other real pvp system but ranks and marks.

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They've already told us Frontlines rewards are the same as Wolves' Den, but with Tomestones as well. That means you can progress with Frontlines, it will just be at a much slower pace, since the matches last 30 minutes. The idea behind doing Wolves' Den is that, ironically, it would be faster. Frontlines certainly wont be the easier source of gear if it has the same rewards on what will be a much longer match. Main thing they need to do is fix the progression so it isn't ridiculously steep.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

There needs to be changes to wolves den for the people who enjoy it I know, but it needs to be something to get people to play it FOR it alone, not using it as a carrot for other things. Having the gear be glamour-able got us in the mess of win trading after all. If it was strictly used in PVP and PVP only you wouldnt have had people going after it so hard.

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I can see where you're coming from with that, but with what I'm suggesting, you'd be using Morale as the carrot, which is strictly PvP only.

It would just be a simple case of being able to enjoy Frontlines regardless of Morale (with various adjustments I mentioned earlier), and Morale being there to entice people to keep coming back to PvP. Since Frontlines would be a slower means of obtaining EXP/Marks, Wolves' Den retains purpose through being the "fast" way to advance. If people farmed Atma to paint their weapon, I'm willing to bet they'd do Wolves' Den for some minor Morale as well, though that isn't to say you have to do Wolves' Den; you could just enjoy Frontlines if you want.

The main thing which causes win trading, in my opinion, wasn't the vanity gear itself, but rather how much of a drag R40 is. I'm sure someone has the number of wins required to reach R40, but I found it too ridiculous to make note of. SE seems to have only made it this way to disguise the lack of PvP content, and by that I of course me tournaments/leaderboards/etc.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

That's a really poor excuse. If you wanted to avoid solo que and have people that really know how to pvp you could have gone to Moogle, or hell even Cerberus or Ragnarok.

You choose Odin, almost no pvp players and the ones that do it are sad win traders that are far from knowing how to pvp. I'm not going to say names because it's against the rules but we are a small comunity and everyone know who we are talking about and they are really bad and just get random wins because of having a unfair advantage after wintrading till rank40.

Atleast the traders from Ragnarok stoped playing on random que.

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Rose wtf... Stop talk about old players, they were rank 30 you wasn't even full 70pvp ... Stop being mad cuz they kill you ... I'm sad , I didn't know you were like that ...
And to answer you I want to play with french people and my friends are on Odin and not on Moogle. I dont care what they do after 35+ I know their playstyle and they are fun It's all what I need. If you see me wintrade once call me but I don't think so ;) !

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Originally Posted by Nalien

-snip- I really do not get where this notion that, without Morale, everyone will be equal, is coming from. No. People who obtained Morale gear did so by participating in PvP (sans win trading), they're going to be far more skilled for that fact alone. People who are only just stepping foot in PvP because Frontlines looks fun are going to get destroyed either way. At least if Morale was there, they could complain that Morale gives others an advantage, which we could reply with "So go obtain some Morale gear yourself", by doing which they'd get skilled. Instead we literally just have to say "Play better", which comes off as far more insulting, nor does it encourage players to use Wolves' Den.

With or without Morale, there is going to be a rift between existing PvPers and people trying out Frontlines. Morale provides an easy way to close the gap, even if it doesn't seem to at face value. If skill is the only deciding factor, then it's unfair because they have months worth of experience over you. If Morale is a factor, then it's unfair because they have Morale gear that you can go out and obtain as well, and learn how to PvP in the process.... With Morale there is very clearly something you can easily do to close the gap.

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Where to even begin...

If you cant see the difference between morale (in game boost) vs personal skill (how you play/manage decisions) I can try to illustrate it.

If we have 2 bards for instance, 1 in pvp gear and one not, and they each shoot at each other using the same skill, ungeared player does 500 dmg vs morale geared doing 1000 dmg (not even trying to use real numbers, just illustration purposes) it does not matter what the lesser geared player does....they are taking more damage period. No decisions/actions they take will mitigate that fact. Saying "Go spend 3 months gearing up and come back" is a huge turn off for many people, and honestly not something anyone wants to hear.

If we have 2 equal geared bards, each doing 500 damage....then we get into where personal skill matters. Your personal actions and responses are what determines the outcome. If you lose, it literally is "Play More, Learn from your Mistakes". Next match you WILL do better. Its generally quantifiable advancement, the more you play the better you end up getting. Its not grinding gear to be superior.

The mere fact you say "If skill is the only deciding factor, then it's unfair" is near mind blowing to me. What in life isnt about having skills? From work to play to leisure activities, skill plays a part in every aspect of your life. Someone is going to cook better than you, drive better than you, paint better than you etc and you will in turn be better at things than someone else. If you think playing a video game is unfair if its about skill, then what would you use to judge it???

*Edit for new response -

If morale is not a significant difference, then its pointless to care about it being removed. Either it makes a difference and gives an advantage or it doesn't. Pick a side.

Also if I misunderstood your take on skill it was from this sentence -

If skill is the only deciding factor, then it's unfair because they have months worth of experience over you.

If I misread that I apologize.

And as far as not having exact numbers goes, it doesnt matter for the point I was making....which is that more damage from a pvp stat is more damage. Thats not something up for debate. If you do more damage than another player with the same skill based purely on a pvp stat...no reaction or decision made in game can alter that fact. IT IS PURELY HIGHER DAMAGE PERIOD. I think that isnt unclear even with numbers I clearly stated are just to illustrate the point. I could have used 5 damage vs 6 damage and its the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Do you think it's fair to pit new players against experienced players? Do you really think new players are going to be anything but frustrated by that vast gulf in skill?

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Im trying hard to put this in a way that cant be misunderstood, but anytime your new to something, I would hope you go into with a healthy realization your skills might not be as good as someone else. Some people catch on to something fast, some slow....but yes its fair to put new players in a 72 man pvp match with people who have more experience. The odds of one team being all newbies vs a team of all vets is probably not good. Its easiest to learn large scale pvp as a new player by PLAYING with the more experienced people on your team after all. Its not a 4 vs 4 match where each person has a huge part in the success or failure, its large scale 24 v 24 v 24 where its less focused on each person.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I guess that's why <insert Sports League here> pits the under 5s against the world champions so regularly.

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Since clearly your to the point your just wanting to argue I am done then. At this point I am not sure what you even want, them to keep morale in game and have tier frontlines for each skill bracket? If you honestly think this game has the population to support 72 man pvp matches for newbies, intermediates and max geared I hate to break it to you but they may as well remove all pvp cause it wont work.

Real life sports and game pvp might have similarities, but team sports would go with arena team pvp which you dont send in the B team to fight the best.....not large scale pvp....which is more like a war....in which we obviously send in the lesser skilled privates to fight right along with the officers.

Frontlines is going to be good entry pvp for the simple fact with 72 people you have less personal responsibility and more group responsibility. 4v4 pvp is a totally different ballgame compared to mass pvp. One mistake in arena can lose the match, one newbie screwing up with 23 others? not as big a deal.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

By that logic, Crystal Tower would be a drama free environment.

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Players doing something in PVE scripted events does not equal a player vs player environment where nothing is scripted and its all human responses. You mess up a script you mess it up period. One reason why people do it so often in crystal tower is to piss others off. Its a lot harder to do that when if you mess up against real people, your team mates can try to pick up the slack because its not an instant wipe from a boss mob.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Really? It wasn't clear that I want Wolves' Den to actually remain an event, rather than being completely obsolete and forgotten, by making it viable for training and obtaining gear before doing Frontlines? That I don't want beginners entering Frontlines, getting destroyed over and over for 30 minutes, and then never queuing again? That I want PvP to have a functioning community based around progression, rather than being "just for fun", because XIVs PvP is no where near popular enough to sustain that beyond the initial hype?

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Honestly, and I am being serious as someone who has played MMO's since Everquest 1 and done pvp in every one that has it....I have NEVER played a game where the arena pvp was considered the "training" pvp and the large scale pvp was skilled. Arena or 4v4 is usually the "ranked" or skilled pvp.....with tournaments and competitions and seasons/ladders and assorted benefits and bragging rights. Large scale pvp has always been about fun and enjoyment from my experience, but if you can tell me some games that have arena 4v4 as training and large scale as competitions I will gladly look into it.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

What I'm suggesting is closer to;

Wolves' Den (low bracket).
Frontlines (mid bracket).
Wolves' Den (high bracket).

Rather than doing Wolves' Den for training, then Frontlines for competitive play. You start with Wolves' Den to get a feel for PvP and obtain i70, you do Frontlines for fun, but Morale and Wolves' Den remain there to create a stable community keeping the numbers up in both queues, and then if you want, you do the high bracket for competitive play.

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Honestly, that would never ever work. Wolves den will play totally different from large scale pvp. I am not being argumentative here, just stating a fact. Anyone who has done 4v4 and large scale pvp will tell you the same if they are honest. Everything is different, from strategies you use to how the fights are even won 4v4 is killing everyone ASAP, large scale is taking objectives. Its apples and oranges to compare the 2 to each other in anything but the simple fact they are both player vs player. Wolves den and Frontlines are totally separate beasts and they will attract somewhat different crowds. SE needs to see about adding tournaments and seasons to 4v4 to give incentive to play it.

Also, if you gate frontlines behind doing 4v4, you will lose a LARGE amount of the population you would otherwise have. I know for myself and people I know, we all hate 4v4 these days (just too old to deal with the crap) but love mass scale pvp. If I had to go through wolves den to do frontlines? I wouldnt bother and I know we are not alone in that. Arena pvp is a huge turn off for a lot of people period.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Oh, I'm not suggesting out right locking Frontlines behind Wolves' Den. I'm suggesting keeping Morale so that people can be enticed into doing Wolves' Den, rather than it becoming a forgotten piece of content. The bonus it provides is manageable, but it should be enough to entice people into Wolves' Den. When it comes to gear people will do anything for stats (See: Novus).

You should be able to jump into Frontlines with PvE gear and enjoy it. Morale does not prevent that, all Morale does is provide a reason to also use Wolves' Den to obtain such gear.

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And the problem with that becomes, if both are PvP and both use morale then both should give the means to buy the gear, and then no one would do wolves den because Frontlines would be an easier source of gear. And at this point, Frontlines very well might give marks to buy the gear even if morale isnt valid in it, just because we have no other real pvp system but ranks and marks.

There needs to be changes to wolves den for the people who enjoy it I know, but it needs to be something to get people to play it FOR it alone, not using it as a carrot for other things. Having the gear be glamour-able got us in the mess of win trading after all. If it was strictly used in PVP and PVP only you wouldnt have had people going after it so hard.

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Originally Posted by Rin23

Rose wtf... Stop talk about old players, they were rank 30 you wasn't even full 70pvp ... Stop being mad cuz they kill you ... I'm sad , I didn't know you were like that ...
And to answer you I want to play with french people and my friends are on Odin and not on Moogle. I dont care what they do after 35+ I know their playstyle and they are fun It's all what I need. If you see me wintrade once call me but I don't think so ;) !

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Mad because they kill me xD? I made Sieg ragequit from pvp and killed him many times even when he had full 40 and we also had enough time to stop playing to spam emotes on them. Even when him and Joke were togheter and that's 2 rank 40's vs pugs.

If i was mad for losing i would be like them and boost to rank 40 to faceroll the other groups. But i never did it and i play everyday, and i lose and lot and everyone can tell you that i have never told anything to legit players even if they kill me 10 times in a row.

I even got new people to play pvp and for the past weeks i have been playing with a friend that was rank 0 with no exp on pvp.
The real issue here is having people like them ruining the game for new players or legit players, as if the comunity was not small enough.

Now what i'm really mad about is watching legit players support win traders and just ruin the que's giving no chance to new players.
I'm the one that's really sad and din't know that you were like that. So being an old player is an excuse to win trade? It's funny from you to try and say that you are against win trade and then support them.

What you are doing now is worst than win trading, you are being boosted/carried by the stuff you say you hate. Nice logic.

Frontlines resembles AB a lot, don't remember gear requirements there either, there were level caps, but not ilvl. Just buy or make some HQ i70 gear, and put materia in it, not a really hard thing to do. (unless you kept that gear, then it's even easier) I personally think it's going to be a lot of fun no real gear advantage, nothing but pug vs premade type deal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

Mad because they kill me xD? I made Sieg ragequit from pvp and killed him many times even when he had full 40 and we also had enough time to stop playing to spam emotes on them. Even when him and Joke were togheter and that's 2 rank 40's vs pugs.

If i was mad for losing i would be like them and boost to rank 40 to faceroll the other groups. But i never did it and i play everyday, and i lose and lot and everyone can tell you that i have never told anything to legit players even if they kill me 10 times in a row.

I even got new people to play pvp and for the past weeks i have been playing with a friend that was rank 0 with no exp on pvp.
The real issue here is having people like them ruining the game for new players or legit players, as if the comunity was not small enough.

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you don't kill him, if he is in ur team you don't play. You think it's cool for the 2 others players in ur team ?
yes I need them to win ! :) of course ...

nvm, they were my friends before, they will be my friends after. They do like they want they know I'm dislike wintrade. It's not the real life you know ? I don't care if I lose, I don't care if I wait because I'm enjoying free time with my friends on a vocal.

So rose HF and enjoy ur game !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rin23

you don't kill him, if he is in ur team you don't play. You think it's cool for the 2 others players in ur team ?
yes I need them to win ! :) of course ...

nvm, they were my friends before, they will be my friends after. They do like they want they know I'm dislike wintrade. It's not the real life you know ? I don't care if I lose, I don't care if I wait because I'm enjoying free time with my friends on a vocal.

So rose HF and enjoy ur game ! Cya it's my last message for you it's sad

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You think it's cool for the other 4 players in the other side for me to help the win traders that cheated their gear? Not being real life is no excuse to cheat.

And yes i do kill them, it's funny that you post that today after we killed you twice and got Joke and Danz and killed them too lol
It's not something i was expecting but that's how bad they are, even having r40 gear they manage to lose vs players below rank 30.

Now keep like that and you will end up having no one to play because everyone will be pushed away by the traders facerolling them.

who is danz ? lol

But anyway it's cool if you win rose i don't play for win all my matches

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rin23

who is danz ? lol

But anyway it's cool if you win rose i don't play for win all my matches

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/3128511/

I wonder why hes naked :O

i don't know him :x well i have just to play with him just before and he is rly bad x)

Taking away morale in Frontline was essential to prevent the R40 wintraders from going in there and playing Dynasty Warriors with the first-timers in PvE gear.

The reality is, that's why you couldn't have nice things, because too many people wintraded and this is the punishment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illya

Taking away morale in Frontline was essential to prevent the R40 wintraders from going in there and playing Dynasty Warriors with the first-timers in PvE gear.

The reality is, that's why you couldn't have nice things, because too many people wintraded and this is the punishment.

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Maybe the best solution was to ban them at beginning no ? And no punish legit players ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rin23

Maybe the best solution was to ban them at beginning no ? And no punish legit players ?

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Well obviously, but it's pretty clear now Squenix had no system in place to detect wintraders and punish them. If they had a solution for the wintraders from the start, would we even be having this discussion?

Wintrading is a common problem in all PvP MMOs, so I don't know what the hell Squenix was doing but it's too late now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illya

Taking away morale in Frontline was essential to prevent the R40 wintraders from going in there and playing Dynasty Warriors with the first-timers in PvE gear.

The reality is, that's why you couldn't have nice things, because too many people wintraded and this is the punishment.

---

Even if you take away morale, there are several responses in several threads about them still having a huge advantage because of AP. It doesn't seem that taking morale solves the entire issue. Maybe it's a start, but in the grand scheme of things, do you think it's going to solve the issue of R40 steamrolling R1's? (Legitimate question, not trying to make it sound condescending).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illya

Well obviously, but it's pretty clear now Squenix had no system in place to detect wintraders and punish them. If they had a solution for the wintraders from the start, would we even be having this discussion?

Wintrading is a common problem in all PvP MMOs, so I don't know what the hell Squenix was doing but it's too late now.

---

they don't care about pvp players it's all. Its easy to detect the wintraders

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/3128511/

I wonder why hes naked :O

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lmfao, laughed so hard at this

Its funny how in pretty much every other competitive gaming community they will strive for balanced gameplay so the winners are the better players but you go to the mmo scene and every one wants advantages. I'm laughing at the kids over here claiming theyve lost all that time they put in grinding. Over a decade of counter strike over here, I mean countless matches and I dont have a damn thing to show for it but my love for competitive gaming. Maybe JUST MAYBE you guys should've pvp'd cause you enjoyed it. Gimme a fair fight any day. If i'm wrecking these guys cause they got no morale then its an empty victory

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illya

Taking away morale in Frontline was essential to prevent the R40 wintraders from going in there and playing Dynasty Warriors with the first-timers in PvE gear.

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It doesn't do that at all.

Firstly, Morale isn't that powerful.
Secondly, with a i80 cap their i100 Morale gear would only just be above i70 Morale gear, which is much easier to get, but certainly should be adjusted to be even more manageable.
Thirdly, R40 are still going to have the advantage of all their skill points, which play a much bigger role than Morale. They lessened that somewhat, by giving everyone access to the skills, but anyone with any skill points is still going to have most of their skills almost doubled in power.

Even in Wolves' Den where you're killing each other as fast as possible, so a difference in Morale is actually noticeable, there are plenty of people who can testify to crushing i100 in subpar Morale gear. The difference between i70 Morale and i80 Morale would be so minor it isn't even worth talking about from a balance perspective, and for PvE players, like I suggested earlier, they can just be given a buff that provides Morale; it boosts your Morale up to a cap of i65, so people with Morale gear get nothing from it. Then there is only a difference of i15 between everyone in Frontlines, but Morale is still there to provide an incentive to continue doing PvP on a regular basis, be it Frontlines or Wolves' Den for speedier progression. Again; comparing a PvE games PvP to a pure PvP game is inane. PvP games have an insane amount of popularity behind them and plenty of variety. FFXIV has.... Wolves' Den and Frontlines....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nalien

It doesn't do that at all.

Thirdly, R40 are still going to have the advantage of all their skill points, which play a much bigger role than Morale.They lessened that somewhat, by giving everyone access to the skills, but anyone with any skill points is still going to have most of their skills almost doubled in power.

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Either you don't really pvp, or you're just being silly either this is utter nonsense, having high morale vs little/no puts a ridiculous boost on your dmg output and highly reduces damage taken so much more than having the extra +25 stat or buffed abilities that come with high rank, whatever little credibility your posts QQing on the "no morale in frontlines" matter had to me is now gone.
Also your math is terrible. ("doubles in power")

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Either you don't really pvp, or you're just being silly either this is utter nonsense, having high morale vs little/no puts a ridiculous boost on your dmg output and highly reduces damage taken so much more than having the extra +25 stat or buffed abilities that come with high rank, whatever little credibility your posts QQing on the "no morale in frontlines" matter had to me is now gone.

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If only I'd offered a suggestion to close the gap on the Morale difference :rolleyes:

All of someones abilities having nearly halved cooldowns and double potency is still going to cause a greater sense of imbalance than Morale.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Also your math is terrible. ("doubles in power")

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Depends on the ability, but when Full Swing goes from increasing damage taken by 10% to 20%, I'd say that's double, in fact, I think you'll find I said "almost doubles in power", as well as "most of their skills", implying not every skill gets almost doubled.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Doesn't make what you said true.

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Lets compared i100 Morale to i80 Morale! It's certainly not as powerful in an i80 capped environment (you know, because it's capped), and given my following point, I meant it in an unbalanced Morale verse Morale situation. Where it honestly isn't. Again, I offered a suggestion that closes the gap on Morale for PvE players. When i70s can beat i90s in Wolves' Den fairly easily, I think i65 can beat i80s. i65s actually have a slight advantage; they'd be in i80 gear with i65 Morale, anyone in i70 would just be in i70.

Oh, and can you stop pretending additional traits in skills isn't going to make a difference? It is. Even if we ignore the potency, being able to use skills almost twice as often, in a match which lasts much longer (up to 30 minutes?) is going to make a huge difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nalien

If only I'd offered a suggestion to close the gap on the Morale difference :rolleyes:

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Doesn't make what you said true, that being :
"Firstly, Morale isn't that powerful."
"Thirdly, R40 are still going to have the advantage of all their skill points, which play a much bigger role than Morale. They lessened that somewhat, by giving everyone access to the skills, but anyone with any skill points is still going to have most of their skills almost doubled in power.
"
This 2 lines are utter bs.
It shows one of two things:
1. You're completely clueless.
2. You mold your statements and what you say is true around so that you can make your (false) arguments seem stronger.
Don't really know what is worse.

Morale changes everything. Heals in pve get killed before they can even pop attu/purify. Heals in high rank pvp gear are like tanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

Morale changes everything. Heals in pve get killed before they can even pop attu/purify. Heals in high rank pvp gear are like tanks.

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What if PvE had the equivalent of i65 Morale from a buff? Again, that's only a i15 difference with three distinct groups (PvE, i70, i90/100 capped).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

Imo leave it equal for everyone or don't bother.

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My main issue with that is that it doesn't provide anything physical to work towards, and effectively damns Wolves' Den.

If you're working towards the gear, then Wolves' Den is great. Frontlines and Wolves' Den offer the same rewards (ignore tomestones for a minute), but Wolves' Den is much quicker. There would be a much stronger reason to jump into Wolves' Den. Arguable that would take people away from Frontlines, but that's what I imagine the additional tomestone reward is for.

You would still be able to just jump into Frontlines for fun or to obtain the gear, but a gear treadmill would just provide a strong reason to people to continue coming back and create a core that keeps the queues alive. Without something like that, I can only see PvP in XIV turning into a "flavour of the month" style thing, where they release new content, everyone is hyped for it, and eventually that dies down and queues become horrible again until they release the next piece of content that goes through the exact same motions.

Imo leave it equal for everyone or don't bother.
Edit: Well you get better skills. That should be enough.
Or make the materia work in fl so that pvp gear ends up having a little advantage or well be equal since it's losing one stat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

Edit: Well you get better skills. That should be enough.
Or make the materia work in fl so that pvp gear ends up having a little advantage or well be equal since it's losing one stat.

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Possibly, but that just means people are actually OK with there not being a level playing field. One player has better skills, the other doesn't. Apparently that's fine.
At least if there is an i65 Morale boost, that is something that they can use to easily close the gap while still providing reason to progress. I can't imagine an equivalent for skills, but maybe you have a suggestion?

On gear, I don't imagine materia will make a difference. With an i80 cap, i70 PvP gear with melds to fix the missing stat Morale provides still isn't worthwhile; you'd still be in i70 instead of i80. With i90/i100, well I'm not actually sure how materia works when it comes to caps. If they raise the iCap to i90 in Frontlines (they said either i80 or i90 iirc), then the crafted i90 stuff is still better than PvP gear. PvP gear, with melds, would still only be just as good as PvE gear, at best. PvE gear would still be vastly superior even if that's the case, simply because it's so much easier to obtain, and (sans i90 crafted) requires no additional work through melds.

That is unless PvP materia makes a difference, but I don't remember it ever being worthwhile, seeing as it knocks down the duration a % rather than giving a % resistance iirc. Sleep and Bind were the only ones worth a damn iirc. Even if it is worthwhile, once again, it just goes to show that we're not against there being a non-skill (personal skill, not in-game skills/abilities) based difference in players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

Imo leave it equal for everyone or don't bother.
Edit: Well you get better skills. That should be enough.
Or make the materia work in fl so that pvp gear ends up having a little advantage or well be equal since it's losing one stat.

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I guess not, because ilvl80 sync every player up to ilvl80 will receive all stat capped !!! For exemple, all healers will have 3800 hp and same amount of mind (even if one have full mind jewel and other have full vitality jewel), same thing for tank with vita or strengh jewel, they will have same stats...
There is no place to itemisation with this ilvl sync...
Imo, poorly geared players still have 2800hp, low stat... I guess, it's better to make an ilvl required to join party and remove all restriction in..

SE actually ruins this pvp with every stupid idea and requirement since 2.2...

Ilvl Sync is a far bad idea, maybe give a reduction for ilvl70 pvp gear to promote pvp system for new players and give possibility to join wolves den in near future with gear obtain in FL...
An i110 pvp gear obtain in FL should be better idea to promote this feature and participation than a stupide mount...

It's simple. Frontlines requires a lot of players, something PvP does not have. If they let Morale work in Frontlines, then non-pvpers wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole and frontlines would be a dud.

As a retired Rank 30 PvPer, I approve and encourage this choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edenlys

SE actually ruins this pvp with every stupid idea and requirement since 2.2...

Ilvl Sync is a far bad idea, maybe give a reduction for ilvl70 pvp gear to promote pvp system for new players and give possibility to join wolves den in near future with gear obtain in FL...
An i110 pvp gear obtain in FL should be better idea to promote this feature and participation than a stupide mount...

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Its not a stupid idea at all. PvP gear should of never been added to begin with and SE realizes they made a mistake with that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koltik

It's simple. Frontlines requires a lot of players, something PvP does not have. If they let Morale work in Frontlines, then non-pvpers wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole and frontlines would be a dud.

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Why would non-PvPers be touching Frontlines in the first place? The majority of them seem to think PvP has no place in a Final Fantasy game anyway, I doubt they'll be trying it out regardless; most of the ones I came across in General Discussion were frankly completely ignorant of PvP and were only agreeing with no Morale because others were.

I really don't get it, doing away with Morale makes it a level playing field? No it doesn't. Doing away with Morale just does away with one of PvPs key sense of progression; obtaining new PvP gear. With out a stat differentiating the two, PvP and PvE gear are identical. You still have players that are better than others, and not because of their personal skill. You have players who've earned more AP and thus fire off their PvP skills more often and for greater effect, as well as boosting stats. You have players who are different races (highest VIT to lowest VIT was an 8 point difference I think). Even with an i80 cap you'll probably end up seeing players with different gear, if they set it to i90 instead like they've talked about, then the person who buys and melds crafted gear has the advantage.

The only issue Morale brings is when it is a significantly higher amount of Morale. Like I've suggested, they can solve that issue with a buff. How will they be solving AP and racial differences? They can solve gear differences by just making a standard set of gear you aim to obtain when doing Frontlines. I'd say i70 PvP gear would fit that slot nicely, worst case they just need to make a few adjustments to Wolf Marks to ensure that isn't such a daunting task. Honestly, i70 PvP gear should just be handed to players as quickly as possible, then the difference in Morale is laughable. Giving people without any PvP gear a buff that provides Morale is a great way to completely remove any issues before they obtain the gear, and it's hardly a difficult thing to do.

Oh, and before anyone bothers, the AP difference will not be solved by the queuing system. You can already group a Rank 40 with a Rank 1 to balance their Ranks out and get them into matches faster; Frontlines has a lot more freedom in that regard. Being 24v24v24 there is a lot more room to balance out a teams Rank, there is a lot of potential for higher Ranks to find their way in and have an advantage because of it.

Personally, I don't mind the concept of people having an advantage, because I know (or hope) the teams will be balanced. If Team Maelstrom has a few high Ranks, so will Team Twin Adder, and Team Immortal Flames. That's also why I don't mind the concept of Morale playing a part, seeing as Morale gear is pretty much tied to your Rank, with the only advantage being "I won more rounds, so I got the gear while being a lower Rank than you".

Long Thread to catch up on.

At this point, I'm going assume most here know of my event "Friendlies".

I'm going to approach this topic from two view points: Me as a pug match PvPer, who uses tiered gear in that mode, and me, the community organizer who forces item level caps on every event we run.

I enjoy pug PvP, spent nearly 6 months grinding out PvP and ignoring PvE because I enjoy PvP so much. But I can tell if my team is going to win or lose before the match even starts. How? I know all the hard core PvPers, what they look like, and who they group up with. Next we take which side got which bots into account, and then finally, I check everyone's gear. The match is usually decided before it even begins. After 3k matches in 6 months, that is what Pug PvP is to me, simple math stacked one way or another.

It can sometimes be fun. Most of the time it's a chore, and rarely do I ever see real team work in pug matches.

Then there is my event, Friendlies.

Until 2-3 weeks ago, we had three modifiers that decided what gear everyone can use.

Does everyone have PvP gear? No, See PvE rules.
Does everyone have i90 PvE? Yes? Run PvE rules. No? See naked rules.

If it came to naked rules(which our event ended up being 80% of the time). Everyone was instructed to take off all clothing that provided beneficial stats. Vanity/crafting was still allowed.

Naked rules made all players involved between ilvl 14-16. Just about everyone in my link shell, would request naked rules even if everyone had i90 sets, because it was what we found to be the most balanced rule set we tried. Plus they were having fun making "Friendlies" vanity sets for i14 PvP.

Out of about 300 players I received feed back from on "Friendlies" about 5 preferred PvE rules over naked, mainly because they had i115 weapons and them putting up 40k damage versus the 15-30k others in i90 were putting up.

In situations where an i60 and an i108 would show up to the event, the i108 would suggest we run PvE since only 1 person fell below the requirements. If they complained after I told them to stick to the rules, I would make an exception for both team.

He gets to wear what ever he wants, if I get to wear what ever I want.

He would equip 108 PvE, I would wear a mix of i90/i100 PvP. Each team had 1 stacked member. I would rush their i108 player, kill him, then steamroll the i14 members.

After the match, I simply said "This is what gear melting looks like, lemme know when you want naked rules." Never seen a try hard last more than 2 rounds without saying naked was fairer, and here is the key, more fun.

SE seems to be implementing the answer I found a while ago when I wanted to make PvP more accessible and after nearly 600 matches of running a similar rule set for front lines in Wolves Den, I can say this for sure. The new way is way better, I am pissed to not have 6 months worth of work not count in a PvP mode. But I rather have fun versus gear melting noobs trying to learn PvP. And as stated before my i100 gear doesn't help me against i100 players. Morale, PvP gear. So it really just boils down to team play and positioning, instead of stacking the math in one way or another.

While I still find no morale a slap in the face(if it ends even being the case), I have to say after running a very similar style of PvP. It the superior model. I would trust SE on this for the sake of your own enjoyment and better matches all around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I really don't get it, doing away with Morale makes it a level playing field? No it doesn't.

Doing away with Morale just does away with one of PvPs key sense of progression; obtaining new PvP gear.

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1.) Yes it does. It removes the gear gap, leaving only skill being the deciding factor, which is how pvp SHOULD be.

2.) I used to feel that way in swtor. But really pvp should never have any sort of gear progression. A ranking system? Sure. Vanity rewards? Sure. But a pure gear advantage? No, that's just dumb. Gear gaps nullify skill. In swtor there was a trick with low level pvp weapons where there was a refund timer of 2 hours so you'd just buy the weapons and before the timer went out you'd traded them back in and the timer paused when you logged out. The commendation cap was 2750. You needed about 15k comms to get full gear and about 20k to min max.

I used to level alts strictly in pvp from 50-55 saving up those low level pvp weapons so I could be fully geared by 55. Why? Because if I didn't and just jumped into pvp, I could be 10x better than the other player, but because he's geared I have zero chance of killing him regardless of skill simply because I'd only hit him for 3k and he'd hit me (assuming I had 0 expertise) for 12k easily. That is just silly to me.

For the longest time I didn't care because it was so easy to get gear, but after awhile I thought to myself "why is this even a thing?" In pve, gear progression makes complete sense. But in a competitive environment such as pvp? It's stupid.

I keep reading the gear gap across all the different threads. What I haven't seen (or if I have missed it, I apologize and please let me know where the post is) is the discrepancy in AP available to a R40 vs a person stepping into PvP for the first time and how that is a "level playing field".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ransu

1.) Yes it does. It removes the gear gap, leaving only skill being the deciding factor, which is how pvp SHOULD be.

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And the gap between Rank/AP, and a (much) lesser extent, racial stats?

Again, they can just close the gear gap with a buff. Everyone is capped to i80 already (if they raise that to i90 like they suggested, thats a big mistake that I wont even entertain at this point), then the difference in Morale is only a critical factor if you have none. A difference between i70 Morale and a capped i80 Morale is much more manageable, just throw in a buff that provides Morale up to a certain point, so it remains accessible while still keeping a progression system.

I agree though, a ranking system (like what we have for GC Seals) would be great. Did Yoshida actually give a reason as to why we don't have that? I get the feeling it'll be the same reasoning we got for Fresh Meat being a thing. If they intend to take out Morale though, they damn sure better have some serious adjustments planned. Wolves' Den simply isn't going to be a thing as it currently stands, except a haven for win traders to obtain their i100 vanity gear; rather than a haven for PvPers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Menriq

(or if I have missed it, I apologize and please let me know where the post is)

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I mentioned it literally four posts up, and I think somewhere in another thread a few times.

FL having/not having morale stats and ilvl 70/80/90 whatever sync, I will still play it like no tomorrow! The only thing I'm actually worried about is people botting...
PS: I'm rank 35 and I know how annoying it is to rank up to get the top tier gear, hopefully 30min p/ match will give a good amount of exp/wolf marks.