My Opinion on why WAR is the superior Tank.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Things we can all agree upon, without arguing like children:

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True enough. Certainly not worth continuing to argue and nit pick wording further.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Things we can all agree upon, without arguing like children:

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You know it's a comparatively pointless argument when *I'm* the not the rabid one.

Here is another angle (please link thread if this has been discussed already)- whats the HPS (and %overheal) that you guys are seeing with WAR? Do any of you pay attention to it as anything but situational or as a surrogate for DPS and heal skill usage?

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Originally Posted by ZoroRoro

whats the HPS (and %overheal) that you guys are seeing with WAR? Do any of you pay attention to it as anything but situational or as a surrogate for DPS and heal skill usage?

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Are you asking about HPS and overheal from external sources or from internal sources? I'm not even sure what you're asking for in the second question since you're asking about healing and saying that it's a surrogate for DPS and healing. Care to clarify/rephrase that?

Sorry I meant specifically WAR self HPS (not external heals). The healing done is often a proportion of damage done for most of the WAR suite (ToB would Mercy Stroke if you pull it off being notable exceptions), so in a sense it does serve as a crude surrogate for the DPS of the WAR, but obviously there are ways to boost it, (i.e. Bloodbath usage timing, IB at 5 stacks continuously or timing with berserk rather than waiting for a big hit). Similarly, frequency of ToB and second wind (if spec'ed) us would also influence self heals. These self heals are theoretically supposed to make up for the missing 5% of effective healing received from defiance.

How much value do you as experts place on optimizing it? Or do you feel that you self heal enough using optimal threat/dps/max SP uptime rotations not to worry about it? Lets assume its a fight with relatively more even rather than spiky boss damage.

To be quite honest, I pretty much ignore the fact that self-healing from Bloodbath, Inner Beast, Storm's Path and Thrill of Battle exists. The amount of healing it does is so inconsequential that it doesn't help with damage bursts and doesn't really alleviate stress on healers' MP pools.

• I will still pop Bloodbath, usually when I'm tanking and offensive cooldowns are up, just because it's free HP. However, since the HP gains are so minimal and spread out over such a long period of time (30s), it is almost unnoticeable when burst damage is the main threat in this game. If I had to give up one Warrior ability, this might be the first one to go.
  
  
• I will either use Inner Beast in anticipation of a predictable incoming burst or simply use it to get value from my Wrath stacks. I don't consciously use it to try to heal myself. I mainly care about the 20% DR and/or the damage. I consider the heal effect from IB as a cute little side effect that might be useful sometime, but the heal does not affect the way I use IB.
  
  
• Same with Storm's Path. I'm only interested in the debuff and to keep my GCD's rolling. I don't consciously use it to heal myself. It's difficult to use it this way just because it's the third attack of your combo, so it's not always available when you want the heal.
  
  
• Actually useful Mercy Stroke heals are so hard to pull off in end-game raiding. I'm more interested in the damage and putting it on cooldown so I can use it more often. Our Paladin tries to get Mercy Stroke heals off of Turn 8 Dreadnaughts and makes sure to tell us about it on the 1/1000 times he succeeds. :)
  
  
• Thrill of Battle is great as a self-Lustrate, but I tend to use it in anticipation of incoming damage more often than I use it in response to being at low HP. For some reason, I sometimes feel compelled to use it together with Convalescence to act like a double-Defiance.
  
  
• I use Second Wind as a mini self-Lustrate before or after damage bursts. I think it's pretty good. Or I'll use it when I accidentally get hit by something I'm not supposed to get hit by, and hope my healers don't notice that I got hit. ;)

I'm basically the same as bok. The healing is in no way a major use that I consider, unless I'm doing a healerless run or am in some other situation where I know I'm not going to get healed (like soloing the final boss of Cutter's Cry because the healer has no idea how to read raid warnings). Most of the time, the self healing from WAR ends up being wasted on overheal or just little bits to top you off when your healer is waiting for you to drop low enough to require a heal. WAR self healing is only a factor over an extended period of time.

There is *some* value in optimizing your self heals like there is in optimizing any other aspect of your character, but self heals are about the last thing I would focus on since they're either of low value (in groups) or for abnormal situations (no healer around). Calculating mean hp/sec is pretty meaningless given that, if you actually want to use your self heals optimally (re: maximizing eHP/sec), you're not attempting to get as much as possible out of the abilities over time.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

I use Second Wind as a mini self-Lustrate before or after damage bursts. I think it's pretty good. Or I'll use it when I accidentally get hit by something I'm not supposed to get hit by, and hope my healers don't notice that I got hit. ;)[/LIST]

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I really don't see a use for Second Wind any more. Since it's based off of attack power instead of max hp, it only heals for a useful amount when you're Berserked and, even then, it's not all that impressive. I gave up on Second Wind a long time ago and now use either Mantra (which will provide about the same amount of healing as Second Wind does only it also increases healing for everyone else) or Awareness (IR, Conv, Provoke, and Featherfoot are the 4 that I always keep).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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The 4 that you always keep are the same 4 I always keep.

I disagree with what you said about Mantra vs Second Wind. While it will provide the same amount of healing, Second Wind does one thing that Mantra cannot: save you from the absence of a heal. The healing is low, but it doesn't have to be much. Assuming that what's about to kill me isn't a one-shot and that it'll take a sequence of multiple attacks to kill me, and assuming that I'm able to recognize that my HP is in danger and react quickly enough, simply having Second Wind off cooldown is equivalent to having ~30 more Vitality. For example, I can squeeze it in before a Death Sentence if I'm not properly topped off or use it after Death Sentence if it brings me dangerously low. It also has the chance to crit or I might be lucky enough to need Second Wind after I've just used Berserk. Even though the times Second Wind has actually saved my life can probably be counted on one hand, I think it's better than you give it credit for.

I really like Mantra, but it depends on the fight. Good vs Rafflesia and Leviathan, not so good vs Melusine and Twintania.

Featherfoot for non-Coil stuff only, surely?

I've never recorded a dodge against a Coil boss attack at least. Is it useful for offtanks against boss adds?

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Featherfoot for non-Coil stuff only, surely?

I've never recorded a dodge against a Coil boss attack at least. Is it useful for offtanks against boss adds?

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I've dodged boss attacks in coil. Now I don't remember dodging anything like Hood Swipe or DS, but I've dodged plenty. Really useful as an OT in T4 when you have all kinds of adds on you.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Featherfoot for non-Coil stuff only, surely?

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All auto-attacks can be dodged, and a fair number of special attacks can be as well. Even if it only worked on auto-attacks though, it would still be more useful than pretty much any other option (potentially barring Second Wind): Flash is worthless now that Overpower is fast and massive, Awareness only avoids crits (which only occur on auto-attacks), Savage Blade is lol as is Haymaker.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

All auto-attacks can be dodged, and a fair number of special attacks can be as well. Even if it only worked on auto-attacks though, it would still be more useful than pretty much any other option (potentially barring Second Wind): Flash is worthless now that Overpower is fast and massive, Awareness only avoids crits (which only occur on auto-attacks), Savage Blade is lol as is Haymaker.

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Flash still has some use. It's omni-directional for mobs don't always like to line up nicely in a cone for overpower. It uses a different resource than overpower when running out of TP is a concern. It gives you something you can do during pacification in case there's an add that spawns if you mistimed berserk. And you can use it without having anything targetted in cases where the in game targetting is being stupid or you're getting severe ability lag that's just messing with everything you do (i'm looking at you brayflox...).

Convalescence and provoke are the only really must have cross class abilitites. Featherfoot is probably the next best in terms of mitigating damage. Everything else is not all that special, so I just run with IR and flash for normal everyday stuff and swap out second wind/awareness if I want every bit of mitigation possible (don't have mantra unlocked).

For what it's worth, I like Flash for Turn 4 for the reason Giantbane mentioned: It uses a different resource.

For the fourth phase (2x Spinner Rooks, 4x Clockwork Bugs), conserving TP by using some mixture of Overpower and Flash is better AoE damage and better enmity than using only Overpower and conserving TP by filling with single-target attacks and standing still. I'm able to enter the fifth phase with almost full TP, and go absolutely nuts in the sixth phase with all my offensive cooldowns and Overpower.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Flash still has some use. It's omni-directional for mobs don't always like to line up nicely in a cone for overpower. It uses a different resource than overpower when running out of TP is a concern.

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This is why I have Steel Cyclone. Flash is entirely redundant, as far as I'm concerned. It used to be useful because it was fast, but 2.1 took care of that. Now, it's just a low enmity (compared to everything else) AoE that you can use 3-4 times per fight most likely during the Pacification after Berserk, in which I've already abused the living hell out of my abilities to establish such a massive enmity cushion that it's pointless to generate more without doing damage. The only time I'd ever want Flash is if I have to pick up an add while I'm Pacified, which doesn't happen because don't use Berserk when I know adds are incoming.

Flash is basically a dramatically downgraded Steel Cyclone to a WAR (at least to my WAR).

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

For the fourth phase (2x Spinner Rooks, 4x Clockwork Bugs), conserving TP by using some mixture of Overpower and Flash is better AoE damage and better enmity than using only Overpower and conserving TP by filling with single-target attacks and standing still. I'm able to enter the fifth phase with almost full TP, and go absolutely nuts in the sixth phase with all my offensive cooldowns and Overpower.

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I conserve/regrow TP during AoE phases by doing my ST rotation and using SC when I get 5 stacks. It's especially helpful since it keeps Maim rolling on me so that the AoE that I *do* use are more effective, plus, prepping an SC>Infuriate>SC for a new phase is just *amazing*. If I do that, most of the time I never need to use *any* Overpowers.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I conserve/regrow TP during AoE phases by doing my ST rotation and using SC when I get 5 stacks. It's especially helpful since it keeps Maim rolling on me so that the AoE that I *do* use are more effective, plus, prepping an SC>Infuriate>SC for a new phase is just *amazing*. If I do that, most of the time I never need to use *any* Overpowers.

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Turn 4 is kinda trivial now since we can crush it under the weight of our gear, not to mention the echo buff. But just for fun and theorycrafting, suppose Turn 4 was re-released and the numbers were scaled to the current available item level.

I'm guessing that you and I would probably take a similar approach to end the first Dreadnaught: Making sure we're back in Defiance with three Wrath Stacks, and a Heavy Swing to ready your combo. Maim > Storm's Eye one of the Spinner Rook and double Steel Cyclone everything.

From there...

(Overpower, Flash)xN would cost about the same TP than single-target combos into Steel Cyclone at 5 Wrath, but it would do substantially more damage and generate substantially more enmity. This extra damage comes in handy if your team comp has only one caster, especially if it's a Summoner. If the damage isn't needed, you could do an extra Flash here or there, or replace a couple Overpowers with some single-target attacks.

Either way, having Flash gives a 0 TP option that generates Enmity, opening the door for Overpowers and/or conserving TP for the final two phases. Ironically, I think having Flash in this fight would actually result in a higher damage output, despite the fact that it's a GCD that does zero damage.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Ironically, I think having Flash in this fight would actually result in a higher damage output, despite the fact that it's a GCD that does zero damage.

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That's not really that ironic, though. You are given a certain amount of TP over the course of any particular fight, based on initial TP, natural TP regeneration (which is capped based on fight length), Army's Paeon use, and things like Invigorate (which don't apply to tanks). Given this fixed number (again, it's only fixed for a particular attempt), you can optimize for damage, optimize for enmity, or sacrifice both for some other gain (like doing the first two moves of a combo and holding the third until an add spawns to generate initial enmity, or not pasting the boss into the wall on the first GCD so the other tank gets hate). If you are optimizing for damage, then using Flash for enmity might allow you to still generate enmity and use your TP on more efficient TP-to-damage moves, where you might otherwise have to use it on less efficient damage moves in order to hold hate.

It's all in the numbers (and what your composition and strategy allow for); ain't nothing ironic about it!

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Originally Posted by Huntington

There's no better jolly-cooperation

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Oh you