Is a Parser ever comming?

The only problem I have with dps meters is my experience coming from WoW. It's not the raiders who use them it's people in the lower level instances. It's ridiculous to see meter spam in a level 20 instance and people voting to kick because one person is doing 'unacceptable' dps. If the meters could 'only' be used by raid guilds to improve their teams performance that would be great. Unfortunately, they will be used by people that don't really understand 'how' to use them. It happened in WoW, first with gear score then with recount. You get the 'wannabes' using them as a be all end all. It's sad but true, there is nothing that can be done to stop ignorant people from abusing meters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BMihawk

Really ? ... BAD dps should be called out, just as BAD tanks and healers are being thrown into the flame if they are not doing what they are suppose to do.

---

Thank you for illustrating the point alot of us are making about the potential misuse of parsers. We don't need to be 'calling out' people like they are some kind of disease, you should give tips and suggestions and then move on. If they ask for more advice then oblige, but leave the 'calling out' at home. Do your yelling at the TV or monitor. This is a community, act like it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilraen

Thank you for illustrating the point alot of us are making about the potential misuse of parsers. We don't need to be 'calling out' people like they are some kind of disease, you should give tips and suggestions and then move on. If they ask for more advice then oblige, but leave the 'calling out' at home. Do your yelling at the TV or monitor. This is a community, act like it.

---

If you join a party finder group and woefully unperform, is it not wrong to call them out?

If it is, then I hope you wouldn't call out a tank who comes to your EX Primal party and doesn't keep threat, or perform the tank swaps, potentially with low HP and uses his/her stances wrongly. I hope you wouldn't complain about a healer who only spams their basic cure spell. Bad tanks and healers are called out and replaced; why should bad DPS be exempt?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raenryong

If you join a party finder group and woefully unperform, is it not wrong to call them out?

If it is, then I hope you wouldn't call out a tank who comes to your EX Primal party and doesn't keep threat, or perform the tank swaps, potentially with low HP and uses his/her stances wrongly. I hope you wouldn't complain about a healer who only spams their basic cure spell. Bad tanks and healers are called out and replaced; why should bad DPS be exempt?

---

Another thing I love in these discussions is the rampant ignorance of Duty Finder. You know, some people still use it and act like it's just a more random Party Finder, right? I've had alot of Duty Finder Wanderers runs where the tank takes off like it's a speed run only to die because noone else was expecting it. In a Party Finder situation you can make all the demands you want because you have the time to do it, but Party Finder isn't the only way to get into an instance.

I don't think anyone is arguing that people shouldn't be kicked from duty finder groups unless they are utterly incapable of performing their job. However, what is the problem with the use of group performance analytical tools in party finder groups (which is the norm for serious content where performance is actually important, since dungeons are faceroll)?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raenryong

Bad tanks and healers are called out and replaced; why should bad DPS be exempt?

---

Do you think replacing those members who you believe are under-performing is the best solution to the reason you can't get past content, or do you try to give useful feedback on how they can improve first?

Have you tried giving people useful feedback? It often ends in hostility, no matter how nicely you put it.

Ultimately, it is not my responsibility to ensure people are performing to adequate levels of DPS. I'm happy to help if you want it, but not at the expense of the run I'm currently trying to do. Work on your DPS on your own time, and then join runs requiring serious performance! Guides and training dummies (and parsers) exist for this purpose!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raenryong

I don't think anyone is arguing that people shouldn't be kicked from duty finder groups unless they are utterly incapable of performing their job. However, what is the problem with the use of group performance analytical tools in party finder groups (which is the norm for serious content where performance is actually important, since dungeons are faceroll)?

---

Sometimes people Party Finder for most of their group then Duty Finder the remainder. I know I do sometimes when there's not enough people to fill the party. Are you going to hold your ringers to the same standards as your Partied people? What about the rest of your Party, will they be civil about them? It's hard to assume for one thing and brush off all other variables and not have it come back to bite you. I have no doubt Square's been doing this same thinking.

If you hit the Duty Finder button, you have no right to complain about people you get as they have not signed up to your standards. If you form a full PF group, you have every right to complain. If the person is ultimately completely incapable of performing their role in a duty finder group then I find removing them acceptable (note: "completely incapable" literally meaning that. Not meaning sub-par performance), but aside from that, if you hit that DF button then you sacrifice a great amount of control over your group.

I'm not going to follow this thread as I'm sure it's devolved into insults and finger pointing, but I will say that in my experience some folks will use parsers as they should and a large majority will not. I think it sucks for those who want a legit way to gauge themselves (and I said I wouldn't do this, but looking through someone suggested a self-parse only... though I'm already thinking of ways that could be abused too) but most people wouldn't use it to improve themselves. No matter what our experiences are with these things (mine have been terrible in WoW, even when I was generally top or near) the potential for abuse leaves me hoping these things never make it in. If they do, I'll deal, but I'm against it.

I don't need a parser to figure out whether you're terrible or not. I want it so I can gauge my specific DPS in varying situations without getting smited by incompetent GMs following stupid rules.

I'm really hoping they don't get added ever. Because then people will demand they are used. Once they are demanded they are used people will be judged harshly for not meeting the numbers that only the top raiders have. "Oh well you can get better with practice and gear!" Please, tell me how people will improve with 'practice and gear' if they are kicked from parties for not having super high DPS already. Allowing parsers is allowing a majority of their users to draw lines in the sand and insult everyone who doesn't cross it. Not everyone is the highest Tier BlueGartr level of skill. Not everyone has rotations locked down to milliseconds. Not everyone has every dungeon mechanic, skill, and ability memories categorized and prioritized for maximum DPS / Heals / Tanking / avoiding damage. Not everyone lives in lag free locations. Not everyone uses VPNs. Opening this gate will just lead to more and more outlandish requirements for content based solely on what the top raiding group can accomplish.

If they are added I'll just be forced to deal with them, but I honestly expect that it will get out of control.

Guides, videos, training dummies (with parser use!), asking for help.

Do you argue that people are not free to choose who they want to play with, and discriminate based on ability? Why are high skill players/groups obligated to carry lower skill players through content? Everyone should be free to play this game how they wish and with who they wish - this not only applies to casuals but "elitists" too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raenryong

Guides, videos, training dummies (with parser use!), asking for help.

Do you argue that people are not free to choose who they want to play with, and discriminate based on ability? Why are high skill players/groups obligated to carry lower skill players through content? Everyone should be free to play this game how they wish and with who they wish - this not only applies to casuals but "elitists" too.

---

I've not once said they should be carried. However I'm expecting that attitude of yours to get worse with parsers. If DPS aren't the absolute best then they are "being carried" if they aren't perfect with rotations they are "being carried." It's stuff like this that are the reasons people don't want the parsers. Because even in your noblest point there are tons of shadows it will cast over the community and basically tear it apart into those who are the parser accepted and those who will be kicked and insulted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

I've not once said they should be carried. However I'm expecting that attitude of yours to get worse with parsers. If DPS aren't the absolute best then they are "being carried" if they aren't perfect with rotations they are "being carried." It's stuff like this that are the reasons people don't want the parsers. Because even in your noblest point there are tons of shadows it will cast over the community and basically tear it apart into those who are the parser accepted and those who will be kicked and insulted.

---

I never said I demanded perfection, but if you're not doing good DPS you are effectively being carried. Nobody is going to complain about someone doing 220-240 DPS, as while it's not fantastic, it is serviceable in all content up to Turn 4. That doesn't require perfection by any means.

Someone who is doing below 180 DPS in Titan EX for instance however is being carried and it would be a boon to the group if they were replaced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Tags for this Thread: elitists repeat begging (Ikeda)



This is exactly why these threads don't last. Even with legitimate feedback such as my attempts of asking for an official self-parser get buried and locked away.

Perhaps if ppl actually read threads and the posts within instead of arguing with others opinions, adding tags that obviously point to reporting the thread, this forum would be a better place.

---

I did read your thread and said nothing was wrong with a self parser. The tags were directed at the other about 80% or so of the parser enthusiast social "justice" zealots that derailed your thread long before I even said anything in it begging for full parsers. Complain about them not me. Although after thinking more about self parsers there's potential for abuse there too. Wouldn't be surprised to see people constantly announcing their self parse and then demanding everyone else do the same, someone dares to refuse or isn't using a parser and suddenly it's "Oh mah gerd it's a BAD lynch it! *boot*" and then it's basically no different than the crap a full parser would cause.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raenryong

Someone who is doing below 180 DPS in Titan EX for instance however is being carried and it would be a boon to the group if they were replaced.

---

"Sorry, you suck at your class. Go learn to play before you try content again. Your DPS was only XYZ and you need to be at least ABC because Blue Gartr does it with BCD."


People won't learn if they are just told "Go watch Youtube" and "You suck because parsers told me so." It will just make the game worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

"Sorry, you suck at your class. Go learn to play before you try content again. Your DPS was only XYZ and you need to be at least ABC because Blue Gartr does it with BCD."


People won't learn if they are just told "Go watch Youtube" and "You suck because parsers told me so." It will just make the game worse.

---

I always just take the group I'm leading out, send a polite tell saying that their DPS is a bit on the low side and ask if they wouldn't mind bowing out, and then if they do so, I'll say they had to go due to real life stuff or whatever.

If your performance is not good enough, you shouldn't expect to be carried through content. I don't see how that makes the game worse. If a tank can't tank to the level required, they should go and improve. If a healer can't heal to the level required, they should go and improve. I don't see why DPS should be an exception.

How do they improve on content if they are kicked from said content?

Use training dummies and parsers to optimise DPS; practice rotations. Use guides, videos and advice from good players as supplements. Form or join learning parties in PF to practice fight mechanics. You shouldn't join a farm or clear group unless you are at the level required to farm or clear the content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

"Sorry, you suck at your class. Go learn to play before you try content again. Your DPS was only XYZ and you need to be at least ABC because Blue Gartr does it with BCD."


People won't learn if they are just told "Go watch Youtube" and "You suck because parsers told me so." It will just make the game worse.

---

Rofl.

People that are pulling 100 DPS on Titan EX need to get the hell out of Titan EX and go practice on Titan HM until they stop sucking at playing the game.

The two range DPS in Group A in my last CT run who were pulling 60 and 70 DPS on Atomos need to really get the hell out of any group content immediately and go learn how to press 1-2-3-4.

This is an MMORPG. It's not a single player game. Joining a group means having some minimal level of respect for your teammates. That minimum level of respect means doing your job at least vaguely competently. You don't even need to be good.

Every post I read from people crying about "PERFECT ROTATIONZ" is so hilarious. Most of the content in FF14 can be cleared with people performing at 70% of their potential. That is a bottom C in grade school. You can clear most of Coil with a C.

A lot of players are failing with a D or F. They are performing at 40%-60% of their potential or less.

That is completely incompetent. Most groups in this game can tolerate a lot of bad. When you are parsing 100 DPS on Titan EX, you are cesspit of terrible. Disrespecting everyone else in your group who are actually making an effort.

And then you have the whiteknight squad trying to defend them. Lmao.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raenryong

Use training dummies and parsers to optimise DPS; practice rotations. Use guides, videos and advice from good players as supplements. Form or join learning parties in PF to practice fight mechanics. You shouldn't join a farm or clear group unless you are at the level required to farm or clear the content.

---

99% of PF are "Experienced only" Dummies won't use boss mechanics for you to learn to avoid while DPSing. Guides and videos are ok for knowing what to do but until you start doing it it's not actual experience. If people are being kicked for not being good enough they aren't getting advise so much as a middle finger and a kick out the door.

Cat's out of the bag. We need parser so we can boot people out of parties. It would be nice if it could be automatic, meaning that newcomers that aren't able to reach 85% of overstuffed veteran players would be automatically kicked by the games and a "Shame on you" tag would be put on his head forever.

They won't even add iLvl to examine screens because they are worried how some people might use it in an elitist way. No, they will never add an official parser.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Rofl.
And then you have the whiteknight squad trying to defend them. Lmao.

---

Perhaps read my other posts instead of reading a reply to a reply?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

99% of PF are "Experienced only" Dummies won't use boss mechanics for you to learn to avoid while DPSing.

---

Scrubs who pull 100-150 DPS on Extreme primals don't need help with boss mechanics. They need help learning how to press 1-2-3-4 in front of a boss dummy.

Step 1 before step 2. Said player needs to learn how not to be terrible without boss mechanics (and without holding 7 other players back) before they add in the boss mechanics to make things more complicated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

Perhaps read my other posts instead of reading a reply to a reply?

---

No thanks. My statement stands regardless of who you are or what you have posted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ispano

I see people say this all the time, yet my experience in other games, and this one too, that behavior has been a rarity for me.

---

"Grief" means give people direct feedback that they aren't performing well enough for the content they're attempting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

99% of PF are "Experienced only" Dummies won't use boss mechanics for you to learn to avoid while DPSing. Guides and videos are ok for knowing what to do but until you start doing it it's not actual experience. If people are being kicked for not being good enough they aren't getting advise so much as a middle finger and a kick out the door.

---

You can make your own group. There are plenty of players out there who want to learn fights!

Yeah, but if your DPS vs a stationary dummy isn't at least 225+ (and this is on the low side - 250+ is achievable with i70 gear on any DPS), your output is unlikely to be good enough at any mechanical fight. Every DPS should go and practice their rotations/experiment etc until they are able to output a good level of raw dps. Then they can take their rotation knowledge etc into fights with mechanics and even if they suffer losses (which are inevitable), losing 20% of 225 DPS is a hell of a lot better than losing 20% of 180 DPS for instance. Plus, the more you practice a rotation, the less you have to concentrate on it, freeing up your attention for dodging etc.

If you join a farming or clear party, your performance should be good enough to comfortably occupy your role, ESPECIALLY if for a farming party.

Quote:

---

Cat's out of the bag. We need parser so we can boot people out of parties. It would be nice if it could be automatic, meaning that newcomers that aren't able to reach 85% of overstuffed veteran players would be automatically kicked by the games and a "Shame on you" tag would be put on his head forever.

---

It's not "new vs old", it's "performing vs not performing". If someone isn't performing, then they are are not contributing properly to the group. New players are perfectly capable of having the performance required, and I know many new players who I would take into high tier content with no qualms whatsoever. Half of my static had never touched Coil etc before but I knew they could perform. A player who has played the game long enough to get ~i70 gear could watch guides and learn rotations, practice, and achieve the output necessary to tackle all content until T5.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ikeda

I did read your thread and said nothing was wrong with a self parser. The tags were directed at the other about 80% or so of the parser enthusiast social "justice" zealots that derailed your thread long before I even said anything in it begging for full parsers.

---

It's an example, regardless of topic or individual opinion. Taking advantage of forum mod/rules to bring down a thread is detrimental and counterproductive coming from all sides/parties of a topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ikeda

Although after thinking more about self parsers there's potential for abuse there too.

---

How far would you like to go regarding abuse in general while punishing/restricting legitimate players?

If a player is going that far to be abusive, regardless of how small the conduit is, its the player, that individual's personal attitude and they should be dealt with. That is what TOS/User Agreement Enforcement is for.

Most of the DPS difference is coming from gear unless a player is doing particularly bad and if he does, you don't really need parser to know it. If you can easily parse and talk about it, what's the limit for acceptable DPS ? What was acceptable yesterday would become not good enough tomorrow. It will legitimate the "kick because not efficient enough" policy, efficient being on the party leader decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XNihili

Most of the DPS difference is coming from gear unless a player is doing particularly bad and if he does, you don't really need parser to know it.

---

I kinda do. If a tank screws up, it's pretty obvious (Loses aggro, doesn't pick up adds, etc). If a healer screws up, pretty obvious (Players dying to unavoidable damage). If a DPS screws up, it's pretty hard to tell WHICH DPS screwed up and how. I can offer advice to a tank and healer on what to do to not screw up, because tanks and healers are less about rotations and more about individual abilities. If we're hitting the enrage timer multiple times in a row, we obviously have a DPS issue...we just don't know what that issue is. I can't give advice to a Monk on their rotation if I don't know if the Monk is the one screwing up.

And don't bring up gear. You can hit i90 or above by hitting 4 man dungeons, there's no real way to tell by gear alone. Some really geared players are simply clueless about their rotation and consistently pull less numbers than their lesser-geared counterparts.

I could also be a external factor. As a healer, I'm not sure I really enjoy a DPS that is strictly sticking to his cycle and eating all the AOE so he could be the king of the ring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XNihili

I could also be a external factor. As a healer, I'm not sure I really enjoy a DPS that is strictly sticking to his cycle and eating all the AOE so he could be the king of the ring.

---

You do 0 DPS while dead. Unless the boss requires extremely strict dps requirements, any DPS sitting in aoes to pad meters would probably stop getting healed, die, then removed from the party afterwards.

Let's stop trying to stick our heads in the sand and ignore potential constructive uses of parsers because stupid people exist. We wouldn't get anywhere as a civilization if we stopped doing something because stupid people exist.

I agree that a parser would do more harm than good. Like other people have said, it's hard to tell which DPS is needing advice when you don't meet the DPS check. However, it also gives people reasons to belittle others. I'm guilty of that myself sometimes. The differences do come from players skills the most. Gear might change it a little bit but the difference between a good and a bad DPS is that extra miles they went to get the numbers in like moving out of bombs at the right time to not get hit and still do damage or dps the spumes while dodging dives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReplicaX

How far would you like to go regarding abuse in general while punishing/restricting legitimate players?

If a player is going that far to be abusive, regardless of how small the conduit is, its the player, that individual's personal attitude and they should be dealt with. That is what TOS/User Agreement Enforcement is for.

---

Here's what you don't seem to get. Regardless of whether it's the tool or the player SE doesn't care. That's why they don't allow tells at all in dungeons rather than allowing them and just ban abusive players that get reported and punish early quitters with a 30 minute dungeon lock out. Anything that they see as a threat or something that can upset what they see as their biggest source of income (casuals) they're just going to avoid entirely. Same reason dungeons and boss fights get dumbed down with every update. You can scream the positive uses of parsers to the ends of the earth but because of its massive potential for abuse whether they're only self parsers or party parsers they're just going to avoid it entirely. It's just the way they run things.

In WoW I used those dps parsers and were very useful, when I saw someone of my same class with the same gear that I had beat me in dps by a lot I would ask him about his rotations and would check his skill tree, so next time I would be on the same ground, I didn't found too many players that would harass you for doing low dps, most of the people helped me getting better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ikeda

Anything that they see as a threat or something that can upset what they see as their biggest source of income (casuals) they're just going to avoid entirely.

---

^^

This.

I agree that this thread is pointless. SE's decision-making on the matter doesn't change regardless of any legitimate uses of the parser, or how effective parsers are for players.

External parsers will still exist and will still function either way.

The pure irony of this thread is that even if an in-game parser were introduced, I still wouldn't use it because current external parsers are so good.

We live in an age where telling someone they need to step it up is considered "harassment"

I weep for the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moheeheeko

We live in an age where telling someone they need to step it up is considered "harassment"

I weep for the future.

---

It's all dependent on the way you say it. Say it one way and it's constructive criticism, say it the way certain people in this thread say it and it may as well be harassment with how hostile they are about it. You also have to remember alot of people seem to have VERY fragile egos these days and will think of it as harassment regardless of how you say it.