Over-healing should not generate extra threat

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

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So let me get this straight, you come into a thread I started and then fuss about having to read my posts? Well that makes so much sense. Why don't you just not come into my thread then you won't have to read any of my posts, and not wait for my daily limit at all? Just a thought.

And again, using regen has nothing to do with needing to get better at healing. Why you and so many others try and link the two I'll never understand, expect perhaps for some compulsive need to insult the way others play.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I don't know who thought this idea up on the SE development team, but it was a bad decision. Tanking and healing on this game is tricky enough - especially considering how so many people who play this game are in such a rush they demand the tank grab half the dungeon at a time.

Heals should only generate threat if they actually restore health.

Please change this.

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So question about tanks and dps...should threat only be generated if damage is actually done? Also, if your tank is losing threat to over-healing, you might need a better tank. If your tank isn't losing threat to over-healing, I don't see what the problem is. Tanking and healing in this game really are not that "tricky."

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Originally Posted by Dale

I don't think you understand the concept of a healing over time spell. It is used to preempt damage.

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Ahhh...I get it now. You don't understand basic game mechanics. HoTs have the same effect as Cure. They directly heal damage. There is nothing preemptive about HoTs because the damage is still taken. The biggest benefit of HoTs are that if they are allowed their full duration, they are by far the most MP efficient cures a healer can have.

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Originally Posted by Dale

He's not ok with it :)

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Bah. You don't have any others you can play with to get into the tanking role, are are you just ok letting it go?

Sorry, it's just hard to picture you as a mage after so long you being a Paladin. Then again, me on a Female Dragoon avatar is bound to be throwing you off a bit. >.>

As far as the healing game goes, you're talking frustrations around 4 man events on mechanics designed primarily around 8-man. In which case we have Scholar to Consider. If White Mage had no punishment for the Regen Ticks on Medica II and Regen, there'd be little need for the shielding mechanics that I find to be a quintessential mechanic of Scholar.

And I don't think MP management is a significant enough punishment. Especially considering how MP light trash-monster pulls tend to be. Remember, there's no hate cap in this game. (Not Volatile Enmity either) Without HoT hate, there would be virtually no way for a healer to take hate in this game unless they increased curing enmity for burst healing, which, to me, would be an even worse nightmare.

If it doesn't punish you with over generation of threat you will be punished by lack of mp due to spamming.
Its better to get the hang of it through taking aggro than running out of mp, running out of mp sucks :(

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I've been aggravated by Regen Tics securing hate on spawns or pulls before hate can be grasped by the tank. Eos in particular is horrible with Whispering Wind during Garuda Extreme (you can tell who's microing their skills in those situations.) But I don't want the mechanics changed just because I'm inconvenience. I alter my playstyle to compensate..

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Put Eos/Selene in Obey stance.

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Originally Posted by Kuponutz

Put Eos/Selene in Obey stance.

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I do, some other healers don't, thus my frustrations. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Dale

So let me get this straight, you come into a thread I started and then fuss about having to read my posts?

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Guess I shouldn't have put that end part in my post, since it derailed you from my point that the whole overhealing thing is a balance issue between scholar and white mage, you either ignored that because you have nothing for that, or you just got blinders from me saying I was looking forward to you reaching your posting limit. You are just sitting in your corner refusing to see the whole picture crying because other games don't have this, well, this game has a few things that other games don't, is your next post going to be crying about the armory system since WoW doesn't have it?

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

You are just sitting in your corner refusing to see the whole picture crying because other games don't have this, well, this game has a few things that other games don't, is your next post going to be crying about the armory system since WoW doesn't have it?

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Sometimes I am reminded how hostile these forums can get. It's almost habitual that we accommodate an opposing viewpoint with an insult.

He stated a preference, and made a request. Granted, the request is unpopular, but the reactions are getting pretty overboard. I still don't agree with his stance but even in correcting yourself from your statement last time, you still manage to be a bit harsh in your tone, and it's still detracting from your point. There's no need to cite the Slippery Slope mantra on this, as it's a common logical fallacy. The matter of inter-class balance should stand on its own merits, as well as citing the differences in game concepts and designs between this game and others that necessitate the need for more depth and difficulty in Curing hate management.

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Originally Posted by Dale

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It won't be perfect, but that's why you delay your heals. WHM is a Reactive healer, you don't NEED to precure unless the tank is going to take massive damage, or attack animations are broken/desynced like the Juggernauts in T4. Like I mentioned, don't heal when the tank lost 500 health, use Cure 1 when he's lost approx 1k health. Also like I mentioned any over heal, if at all, at that point is entirely minuscule because if the tank has already taken 1k damage, they have generated enough hate that the 50 or so over heal points would be nothing more then a drop in the lake. And when you're curing, the tank is STILL taking damage, so chances are he won't be 100% HP when your cure registers.

It is 100% avoidable, you're not making the effort to avoid it from what everything sounds like.

This thread has become one of those ridiculous threads like like the ACN > SMN one or the tanky healers one. This will be my last post in this thread.

I agree that there should be a mechanic to discourage overhealing, but I think threat ends up having the wrong effect.

If the tank is facing mobs the wrong way and AoEs are flying around everywhere, it's clear that the tank is at fault. If a DPS goes full burst rotation on the wrong mob in an AoE pull and gains aggro, it's the DPS's fault and they end up dying. In all these cases, it's abundantly clear that the player at fault is what's causing the issue.

Healers on the other hand? Overhealing a target does not inherently create a problem. Yes, it's a problem on extended bosses when the healer runs out of mana, but in shorter fights there's no clear, direct feedback. That's supposed to be what the extra threat is for, but it ends up sending the wrong message because a loss of aggro is more intuitively attributed to a failure of the tank than a failure of the healer.

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Originally Posted by EinSoFZ

Moreover, a smart tank should know when to click regen off so that the healer doesn't suffer. It's amazing how many tanks will yell at healers for using regen, when they can simply REMOVE IT THEMSELVES.

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Or a smart healer can run to the tank and a smart tank can take it off of them easier.

Yes, overhealing should generate threat.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Yes, overhealing should generate threat.

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Don't bother. The OP is one of those people who can't accept that the majority of people have a different opinion than him. And if you do have a different opinion, he gives you more opinions acting as if they're facts. /shrug

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Also XI and enmity shouldn't be in the same sentence, that game's enmity system was completely broken and never got fixed.

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It's more like its enmity cap was/is completely broken; I never thought there were any glaring enmity issues in fights against trash mobs that lasted too short for anyone to reach the cap.

Still doesn't change my opinion that it handled healing enmity better than this game does.

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Originally Posted by EinSoFZ

Moreover, a smart tank should know when to click regen off so that the healer doesn't suffer. It's amazing how many tanks will yell at healers for using regen, when they can simply REMOVE IT THEMSELVES.

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A lot of us are PS3 players. It's not particularly fast to remove debuffs using the controller system. Especially when you ought to be using defensive buffs or your rotation.

I agree the overhealing generates threat mechanic causes more trouble than it ought to. Regen is a good example. They should at least get rid of the threat generated by HoTs.

OP, don't feel bad. The unfortunate thing is the majority of players who post in forums are the vocal minority who'd prefer a game's mechanics never change because they like to pride themselves on how elite they are at dealing with the bad mechanics. But once the bad mechanic is removed they will act as if it's the greatest change in the world.

Would it be nice if "over cure" did not generate hate? Yes.
Would I like it if I didn't? Yes.

But because it is there:
Is it really an issue? No.
Should SE bother changing it? No.
Should OP learn how to deal with it? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Aldracity

I agree that there should be a mechanic to discourage overhealing, but I think threat ends up having the wrong effect.

If the tank is facing mobs the wrong way and AoEs are flying around everywhere, it's clear that the tank is at fault. If a DPS goes full burst rotation on the wrong mob in an AoE pull and gains aggro, it's the DPS's fault and they end up dying. In all these cases, it's abundantly clear that the player at fault is what's causing the issue.

Healers on the other hand? Overhealing a target does not inherently create a problem. Yes, it's a problem on extended bosses when the healer runs out of mana, but in shorter fights there's no clear, direct feedback. That's supposed to be what the extra threat is for, but it ends up sending the wrong message because a loss of aggro is more intuitively attributed to a failure of the tank than a failure of the healer.

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Well guess what?

If a Tank doesn't their CD's right and the healers' MP pool dies the slow death you probably won't notice that it was the tank's fault. If a DD pops Blood for Blood before an unavoidable attack and the healers can't keep them alive no-one'll know it was their fault. If you've been clearing a fight easily for weeks but today everyone dies because the Monk forgot to use Mantra at that one crucial time then whose fault is it? Did you even know when and how they used it?

And the elephant in the room: when you're healing 8-man content with a sub-par partner and you bravely hold the whole team by yourself for so many long minutes before eventually breaking, does it look like you made valiant efforts and played your very best game? No, it looks like you're incompetent.


Like it or not, you succeed as a team or fail as a team, and responsibilities can't always be clear-cut. I think that's what makes MMOs team games rather than to parallel solo games.

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Originally Posted by Dale

As a white mage, I should be able to freely use regen without complicating pulls for a tank. It really is that simple.

This is a gameplay/mechanic issue. It's not a player issue. We have regen for a reason. And that reason is to use it. There is adaptation. Then there is just poor game design. This issue fits in the latter.

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Herein is the problem. You expect to freely use any skill you want when you want how you want. All about you. Your derision of other players telling you that they disagree is telling. So it is fact a player (you in this case) issue.
This is a game where the devs have set up the mechanics in such a way that skill use is situational, This is NOT FF XI, this NOT WoW, etc, this is FF XIV ARR. There is a clear vocal majority on the forums that disagree with your premise, as do Devs it seems.
We as players that heal have exactly THREE options: We adapt to the mechanics of the game. We decide we do not like the mechanics and leave and take our money with us. We continue to play they way we want to and accept the outcome.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

A lot of us are PS3 players. It's not particularly fast to remove debuffs using the controller system. Especially when you ought to be using defensive buffs or your rotation.

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Please. I play on PC using exclusively controller for fights as well as my friends on PS3. It's not instant but it's easy to do.

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Originally Posted by Dale

As a white mage, I should be able to freely use regen without complicating pulls for a tank. It really is that simple.

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As a Paladin, I should be able to freely use Riot Blade cause it looks cool. As a Warrior, I should be able to freely use Storm's Eye combo to do more damage. As a Monk, I should be able to freely use Demolish cause I like the animation. As a Black Mage, I should be able to freely use Blizzard cause I dislike Fire. See how horrible those sound? SE gives the skills to you to use as situation arises, not to freely use it whenever.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Writing irritating posts that have no relation to anything I have said is waste of time too. But you still do it.

When did I ever say I shoot off unnecessary heals? When did I ever say I don't do any damage? You should spend your time reading posts before you respond to them with condescending trash like this. And at least do someone the courtesy of playing with them before you mock the way they play. I think people are entitled at least that common decency. Because believe it or not, reading my opinion that over-healing should not create extra threat doesn't make you an expert about me.

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The only possible reason i could see someone complaining that over healing generates threat is because they themselves are having issues with threat gen. Just because you haven't yet learn how to manage your threat properly doesn't mean it should be removed from the game.
Plus it only makes sense that over healing creates threat. If you're attacking a pack of mobs, and one is doing a bunch of damage to you, you would want to kill it first, however if another mob is healing the shit out of it you're gonna think "Screw this i need to kill this healer mob first." It's the same principle. If the mobs aren't even seeing the tank take much damage because of over healing, they should want to kill the shit out of you. Period. Having your idea implemented would only make this game unnecessarily easier than it already is.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Please. I play on PC using exclusively controller for fights as well as my friends on PS3. It's not instant but it's easy to do.

As a Paladin, I should be able to freely use Riot Blade cause it looks cool. As a Warrior, I should be able to freely use Storm's Eye combo to do more damage. As a Monk, I should be able to freely use Demolish cause I like the animation. As a Black Mage, I should be able to freely use Blizzard cause I dislike Fire. See how horrible those sound? SE gives the skills to you to use as situation arises, not to freely use it whenever.

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Stop using logic. Oh, but wars should freely use Storm's Eye combo when they have hate to mitigate damage. But yeah, your point stands.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

As a Black Mage, I should be able to freely use Blizzard cause I dislike Fire.

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Yea a frost build would be so welcome ..

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Stop using logic. Oh, but wars should freely use Storm's Path combo when they have hate to mitigate damage. But yeah, your point stands.

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Fixed that for you. :P

Fine as is, no change required.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Clueless stuff

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Using a controller, it takes me all of 2 seconds to remove Regen if I so feel like it. Running to the next set of mobs is a great time to do that. If you're using defensive buffs or rotations, you should be in battle. If you are in battle, you should never want to remove Regen or any other buff. If you're going to remove a buff, you do it outside of battle when you won't be using cooldowns or rotations. Just FYI, you cannot manually remove debuffs. That is the job of Leeches/Esuna. You can, however, manually remove buffs.

As far as overhealing, if you're a halfway decent tank, you should barely notice it. If you get Regen cast on you during battle (when it should be cast, after you take damage), you will never notice the threat generation unless you are utterly terrible at tanking. In this game, any player actions that happens during the course of battle, including ticks of a pre-cast Regen, generate threat because they all effect the battle. This includes overhealing. The mobs don't really care that your Cure only healed for 500/1000 hit points. They just care that you cast it.

Honestly though, threat generation in this game is so simple and straight-forward, I don't know what to tell you if you can't understand it or handle it. It's not bad mechanics if you don't like it or can't handle it. It may just be you.

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Originally Posted by Dale

This is a gameplay/mechanic issue. It's not a player issue. We have regen for a reason. And that reason is to use it. There is adaptation. Then there is just poor game design. This issue fits in the latter.

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False. The whole point of the game is to know when to use skills/spells and when not to use skills/spells. part of knowing when to use skills/spells requires taking into account what the rest of your party is doing. If anyone should be able to use any skill/spell whenever they want... you've totally made this game a button-masher with very little strategy involved. taking away the need to work as a team totally defeats the purpose of a team game.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Tanking and healing on this game is tricky enough

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHA!

Your compliant became invalid once you said this. Tank and healing tricky? No. Tanking is not a tricky thing to do, neither is healing. As long as you're not brain dead they're very easy and straight forward(sadly, to many people are brain dead).

Over Healing is very easy to avoid, VERY easy. All you need to do is NOT spam cure every time they get hit. Learn to judge the amount of hp they're missing against your average cure amount, and you can keep them healthy without ever over healing. The only time you will ever actually spam heals is if your party is retarded and your forced to drain yourself of MP to just to keep them from dying(of course letting people die sometimes to teach them a lesson is needed. Trial by fire).

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

A lot of us are PS3 players. It's not particularly fast to remove debuffs using the controller system. Especially when you ought to be using defensive buffs or your rotation.

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lol what? I play on PS3 and have no issue with my controller and am able to quickly move through my party to heal and esuna as needed. Don't use the PS3/Controller as an excuse for your lack of hand coordination. If you have that much of an issue, I suggest you go play more intensive games to improve your hand speed on controller. You can play DDR with your controller, or you can Play old school, non nintendo Monster Hunter. Hell even tetris will do the trick.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Heals should only generate threat if they actually restore health.

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DPS and DoT should only generate threat if they are critical.

/end sarcasm

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

DPS and DoT should only generate threat if they are critical.

/end sarcasm

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actually....

the only skills that should generate threat are the actual tank threat generating skills

/sarcasm 1-up'd

There's a trick to this.


Don't overheal.

1. Tank pulls
2. Tank takes some damage
3. Start casting cure
4.a Tank is building threat
4.b Tank is taking steady damage
5. Cure casts
Take a moment to reflect. Can the tank survive 4 seconds without another direct heal?
If they cannot, return to step 3.
If they can move onto step 6.
6. Cast Regen
7. Stop over healing and L2P(repeat as necessary)

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Originally Posted by EinSoFZ

Moreover, a smart tank should know when to click regen off so that the healer doesn't suffer. It's amazing how many tanks will yell at healers for using regen, when they can simply REMOVE IT THEMSELVES.

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Wow, I had no idea you could do this. Thanks man.

No.. just.. no...
Why ask them to spend time fixing something that is not even remotely broken?!

Pretty much no one has an issue with this, so it's either you or the tank at fault, go ask for advice don't come asking for nerf/"fix" into the forums.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBiscuit

1. Tank pulls
2. Tank takes some damage
3. Start casting cure
4.a Tank is building threat
4.b Tank is taking steady damage
5. Cure casts
Take a moment to reflect. Can the tank survive 4 seconds without another direct heal?
If they cannot, return to step 3.
If they can move onto step 6.
6. Cast Regen
7. Stop over healing and L2P(repeat as necessary)

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I do a bit different, maybe it will be useful for someone. I will write it in a manner of tactics.
0. No Stoneskin on self? -> Stoneskin self.
1. Is pull for 5+ mobs? -> Pre-cast Eye4Eye.
2. Is pull for 5+ mobs? -> Use DS.
3. Did tanker Flash/Overpower/similar aoe? -> Use Regen (Regen ticks for 300-500 first heal and tanker will have easier time taking threat from a loose mob).
4. Is tanker below 50% hp? -> Use Cure + Cure 2.
5. Is DS about to expire? -> Cast Regen.
6. Are there at least 3 mobs alive? -> CS and Holy them to death.
7. Is tanker below 50% hp? -> Step 4.
8. Will fight go on for at least 10s? -> Cast Regen.
9. Dont have mana to cast a Cure? -> SoS.

This is still going?! Stop feeding the troll op.