Market Wards vs AH

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Originally Posted by Gracious

I would like to see an Auction House in the game. I do not like the retainer system.

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So wat of the other much needed features the games now lacks would you delay to redirect development resources to your precious and extremely redundant AH?

I gave my opinion. You are free to draw out as much as you want from a 2 sentence post.

I would like to see the Market Wards evolved into a true Market that is a zone of the city (and actually looks like it's part of the city). All shopping in a single zone, no multi-zone. There would be a central search desk to help with quick searching. Retainers would have to be in basic stalls or more advanced properties. A basic stall could be rented by the day - with the option of multi day rental. The advanced properties could be purchased and improved by the player. You should be able to hang out a sign to indicate services/goods offered. Improve your property by adding advanced crafting support capabilities. Post a list of goods than can be purchased on order for other customers to select from. Things of that nature.

Abriel,

You cannot argue with the masses, the systems you are describing, and solutions you are suggesting, all end up in the same outcome - players continue to be frustrated with the economic systems of this game. The outcry is massive, the people have spoken in their droves, the critics have cited it, mmo fans and ff fans alike have beaten the drum and there is a resounding tone form all these sources. The Market wards in their current form, even with a search feature, are convaluted and unwanted by most.

For those that want to browse / impulse buy, then we have player bazzars, for those that want ease of use and effieciancy, they desire an auction house. SE acknowledges that, and just because they have a Market Ward system already in place, do not be under any illusions that game systems such as this could be cut completely if it means satisfying the majority. Yoshi has some radical plans to change this game imo, and simply "adding content" as many people are suggesting, will not relaunch or reboot this game ready for PS3 launch and paying subs.

He must and Is going back to the drawing board and changing a lot of core features of the game. Only once this is done will they really, really focus on content in a big way I feel.

If this game launches to the console market with an economic system such as you are describing, it will fall flat on its face. Yoshi knows that, and I feel the game is going to see many changes that are going to rattle some cages around here, including the addition of an AH, the scrapping of the current market ward system as we know it, and an enhancement to player bazar areas (quite possibly retainers in non instanced areas for niche items they do not want to place on the AH just as what happens in FFXI now).

Bring it on I say, change is good, they could wipe Gridania tomorrow and replace it just with an AH and i would subscribe to this game for life. :p

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Originally Posted by Abriael

So wat of the other much needed features the games now lacks would you delay to redirect development resources to your precious and extremely redundant AH?

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Yes, yes i would. In a heartbeat.

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Originally Posted by Naylia

I would like to see the Market Wards evolved into a true Market that is a zone of the city (and actually looks like it's part of the city). All shopping in a single zone, no multi-zone. There would be a central search desk to help with quick searching. Retainers would have to be in basic stalls or more advanced properties. A basic stall could be rented by the day - with the option of multi day rental. The advanced properties could be purchased and improved by the player. You should be able to hang out a sign to indicate services/goods offered. Improve your property by adding advanced crafting support capabilities. Post a list of goods than can be purchased on order for other customers to select from. Things of that nature.

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You have a good point, much of the problems i have with the current system is that it is instanced, and this takes time to zone around, and is exacerbated by the fact you can only have one search being marked on retainers at a time.

What you have described is what I thought they were going to do when they announced Market wards before the game went into closed beta. What we ended up with is a hot mess.

I'd bet that even if they gave us an AH it would still be broken, lack most of the features your asking for, and be slow and cumbersome. What makes you thin they would just all of a sudden get an AH done right out of the blue? What evidence can you give me that the AH system would not be just as if not even more broken than the Market wards seeing as they have not put any time into making one?

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

Yes, yes i would. In a heartbeat.

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Which doesn't really answer the question, does it?

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Originally Posted by Xzen

I'd bet that even if they gave us an AH it would still be broken, lack most of the features your asking for, and be slow and cumbersome. What makes you thin they would just all of a sudden get an AH done right out of the blue? What evidence can you give me that the AH system would not be just as if not even more broken than the Market wards seeing as they have not put any time into making one?

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Their existing game FFXI - AH is fine. Its not perfect, there is no text search, you scroll through items by category for example, but if they could implement that system in FFXIV with the number of auction slots increased most people would be happy i think (number of slots you can use to auction items is restricted by PS2 console's memory but then it is an aging game.)

You search for the item you want, bid on it (something the market ward retainer system cannot do without implementing a bidding system which equals an AH anyway mostly), it is delivered to you, you click the next one, buy it outright, its delivered to you. Theres no zoning, no instances, no waiting for retainer to pop up and load, no running around pointlessly.

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

Their existing game FFXI - AH is fine. Its not perfect, there is no text search, you scroll through items by category for example, but if they could implement that system in FFXIV with the number of auction slots increased most people would be happy i think (number of slots you can use to auction items is restricted by PS2 console's memory but then it is an aging game.)

You search for the item you want, bid on it (something the market ward retainer system cannot do without implementing a bidding system which equals an AH anyway mostly), it is delivered to you, you click the next one, buy it outright, its delivered to you. Theres no zoning, no instances, no waiting for retainer to pop up and load, no running around pointlessly.

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Do you really think they could just port all that over? Do you think they would? I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Which doesn't really answer the question, does it?

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Youre right, was speed reading, I would redirect any resources. I see this as a fundamental component of the game that needs to be fixed before pretty much anything (along with the implementation of a mail system and a better lfg system). Followed closely by in game travel and then content should be added (quests, dungeons etc).

If these core components are not implemented, the console market will not embrace this game and it will fail.

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

Their existing game FFXI - AH is fine.

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Really now. Too bad the FFXI's AH is what completely destroyed the economy, caused the biggest inflation in the history of MMORPGs, and left complete free reign to gillsellers and farmers.

Yeah, really a good, solid base to work upon.

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

Abriel,

You cannot argue with the masses, the systems you are describing, and solutions you are suggesting, all end up in the same outcome - players continue to be frustrated with the economic systems of this game. The outcry is massive, the people have spoken in their droves, the critics have cited it, mmo fans and ff fans alike have beaten the drum and there is a resounding tone form all these sources. The Market wards in their current form, even with a search feature, are convaluted and unwanted by most.

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Of course you can argue with the masses. The masses are normally massively ignorant, and the critics aren't normally much better (if not worse).

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Bring it on I say, change is good, they could wipe Gridania tomorrow and replace it just with an AH and i would subscribe to this game for life. :p

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Change is good when it doesn't take up precious development time and resources that would be better allocated elsewhere, to create a redundant system to fuel the ego of the ignorant masses.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Do you really think they could just port all that over? Do you think they would? I doubt it.

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They could of course. Will they? probably not. But they could use it for a model very easily. Its their game, their code, its been successful for 6years (or is it 8 cant remember), they know it works, they know what they can do in FFXIV with increased memory. I see no reason why they could not use core objects in the code and build the program up around it.

Hell that's what programmers do a lot of the time. Programming is a lot more "hack and slash" than people believe, when you have millions of lines of code to write, damn straight your gonna template existing material to cut down on the work, and then plug it into your existing architecture. Thats how programming is done every day around the world, we evolve and tinker with existing programs. Game systems arent written from scratch as much as people think.

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

Youre right, was speed reading, I would redirect any resources. I see this as a fundamental component of the game that needs to be fixed before pretty much anything (along with the implementation of a mail system and a better lfg system). Followed closely by in game travel and then content should be added (quests, dungeons etc).

If these core components are not implemented, the console market will not embrace this game and it will fail.

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bad excuse based on a flawed knowledge of the market.

The vast majority of console gamers have very little experience of MMORPGs. They are much less demanding and have a LOT less prejudice created by system present in previous MMORPG games.

If the game had been released on PS3 only first, you can be pretty much sure that they would have accepted it and it's system much easier than PC gamers with all their prejudices created by previous games.

And "any" is still not an answer. But it shows how much your priorities are skewed by prejudices. An AH will do you real good if you have nothing to do in the game. I'm sure you'll have real fun playing with the little numbers.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Really now. Too bad the FFXI's AH is what completely destroyed the economy, caused the biggest inflation in the history of MMORPGs, and left complete free reign to gillsellers and farmers.

Yeah, really a good, solid base to work upon.



Of course you can argue with the masses. The masses are normally massively ignorant, and the critics aren't normally much better (if not worse).



Change is good when it doesn't take up precious development time and resources that would be better allocated elsewhere, to create a redundant system to fuel the ego of the ignorant masses.

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OK you make me laugh.

Youre right everyone else in the world is ignorant and wrong because they dont agree with your point of view.

Whether you like it or not, millions of people were stoked and excited for FFXIV then it launched to (checks metacritic) critical averages for 49% and user averages of 38%.

A lot of the causes for concern were, lack of mail system, lack of AH, lack of transport. Lack of content was there too but people were more disgusted that a AAA Final Fantasy numbered title was missing so many basic core components that western and eastern gamers considered fundamental to a modern MMO.

Because of that big changes are coming. You had your content in the way of "sidequests" (lol) and they will now be turning this game on its head for a reboot and relaunch come PS3 launch time.

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

Youre right everyone else in the world is ignorant and wrong because they dont agree with your point of view.

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No, they are because they know nothing of game development, resource allocation and priorities.

The fact that you use metacritic (lol) just shows how weak your arguments are. "I'm right because I'm in the majority!" Has never been a solid way to conduct a discussion.

Big changes are coming, but If I were you, I'd wait to see it befoe assuming that they are the changes YOU want.

OK signing off now you have run out of constructive argument to rebuke my points. You obviously know everything about MMO's and the console mmo market i stand corrected.

Any is an answer, I am telling you all resources should be put in this direction. Understand now? /yawn

Frankly now i read back all of your points, you show your ignorance to the problems of this game more than I had realised.

You think your an expert, but listen to the majority of GAMERS on this thread and others. They are unhappy with the games core. And thats why its gonna change, and i dont think your gonna like it. Seeya

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

They could of course. Will they? probably not. But they could use it for a model very easily. Its their game, their code, its been successful for 6years (or is it 8 cant remember), they know it works, they know what they can do in FFXIV with increased memory. I see no reason why they could not use core objects in the code and build the program up around it.

Hell that's what programmers do a lot of the time. Programming is a lot more "hack and slash" than people believe, when you have millions of lines of code to write, damn straight your gonna template existing material to cut down on the work, and then plug it into your existing architecture. Thats how programming is done every day around the world, we evolve and tinker with existing programs. Game systems arent written from scratch as much as people think.

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I don't think they could port but they could use it as a model for building one in FFXIV. Would it be bugged to hell? Yes. Would it be slow and cumbersome? Yes. Would it likely crash? Yes. Would it likely be missing some features? Yes. We would in essence likely be where we were 4 months ago but with an AH instead.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

The fact that you use metacritic (lol) just shows how weak your arguments are. "I'm right because I'm in the majority!" Has never been a solid way to conduct a discussion.

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OK baited to one last retort.

Metacritic (lol)? what are you 10 ? I used Metacritic to make a point they gather up the socres of the most popular websites critiques and average them out. The Metacritic scores i posted are based on 25 reviews form sites such as Eurogamer, Gamespot, IGN etcetc.

Are you laughing at my use of Metacritic because it is not a fair view of the consensus of this game? Because that average score isnt far wrong.

You know what dont answer that I dont care.

Man, your an idiot.

Maybe it's just me, but the Market Wards already are an AH. SE intended to use them in a different way, but after all the moaning they almost mutilated it to keep players from leaving. Still demanding an AH is kind of funny, as we already have it.
Well, that's just my 2 cents anyway.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

I don't think they could port but they could use it as a model for building one in FFXIV. Would it be bugged to hell? Yes. Would it be slow and cumbersome? Yes. Would it likely crash? Yes. Would it likely be missing some features? Yes. We would in essence likely be where we were 4 months ago but with an AH instead.

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ok you have no idea what you talking about. Why would it be buggy as hell? back up your statements?

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

OK signing off now you have run out of constructive argument to rebuke my points.

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... says the one whose only argument is "I'm in the majority, therefore I'm right".

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Any is an answer, I am telling you all resources should be put in this direction. Understand now? /yawn

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Resource allocation isn't made with "any" or "all". You can be sure as hell that if SE redirected all their resources to create an AH and stopped development of any other kind of content and fixes, there would be an immense outrage of people expecting actual stuff to do in the game, and not seeing any.

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You think your an expert, but listen to the majority of GAMERS on this thread and others. They are unhappy with the games core. And thats why its gonna change, and i dont think your gonna like it. Seeya

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Majority? Did you count?
I see a lot of posts around by people that say that the market wards are functional and just need to be tweaked.

Assuming that the majority automatically agrees with yiu is quite flawed logic my friend.

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

ok you have no idea what you talking about. Why would it be buggy as hell? back up your statements?

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Have you played FFXIV? I really don't think they can pull a fully functional AH out of a hat with all of the functionality we want based on everything we have seen from them so far. I'm going on track record here.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Maybe it's just me, but the Market Wards already are an AH. SE intended to use them in a different way, but after all the moaning they almost mutilated it to keep players from leaving. Still demanding an AH is kind of funny, as we already have it.
Well, that's just my 2 cents anyway.

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nah mate, It's not just you.

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

Metacritic (lol)? what are you 10 ? I used Metacritic to make a point they gather up the socres of the most popular websites critiques and average them out. The Metacritic scores i posted are based on 25 reviews form sites such as Eurogamer, Gamespot, IGN etcetc.

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I would say only someone that's 10 would use metacritic (or reviews at that) to prove a point. Metacritic choses reviews to include in their score in an extremely arbitrary way, and those reviews are written by no one else than 25 average people, none of which played the game for more than 1/100th of what any average person posting on this forum did. Their opinions are negligible at best, and outdated/obsolete as well, since they have been written when the game was just launched, and was very different than it is now. Market wards, by then, had absolutely no way to search them other than manually browsing every single bazar, and their functionality was very limited.

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Man, your an idiot.

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Out of agruments, time for insults.

I would like to see an Auction House. I do not like the current retainer system.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Maybe it's just me, but the Market Wards already are an AH. SE intended to use them in a different way, but after all the moaning they almost mutilated it to keep players from leaving. Still demanding an AH is kind of funny, as we already have it.
Well, that's just my 2 cents anyway.

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True, but you're taking people too literally. Most people who are asking for an AH aren't asking for a new, literal AH building or bust. They're asking for a system that meets the standards set by a traditional AH, whether it's scrapping the Wards and setting up a new system *or* simply upgrading the Wards that offer all the same things. Almost anybody asking for an AH would be perfectly happy with upgraded Wards that fit all those same standards and needs.

What we are asking for is the standards of the AH concept to be met, not necessarily an entirely new building with "Auction House" written on it if the concept can be realized through other means.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

nah mate, It's not just you.



I would say only someone that's 10 would use metacritic (or reviews at that) to prove a point. Metacritic choses reviews to include in their score in an extremely arbitrary way, and those reviews are written by no one else than 25 average people, none of which played the game for more than 1/100th of what any average person posting on this forum did. Their opinions are negligible at best, and outdated/obsolete as well, since they have been written when the game was just launched, and was very different than it is now. Market wards, by then, had absolutely no way to search them other than manually browsing every single bazar, and their functionality was very limited.



Out of agruments, time for insults.

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Metracritic is pretty good, and your argument that the reviews of this game are outdated blablablabla, well they dont hold water, when you consider that the population of this game, is Worse than when those reviews came out :)

If the game was 100% better than when it was released well.... where are the players ?

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Originally Posted by ShinChuck

True, but you're taking people too literally. Most people who are asking for an AH aren't asking for a new, literal AH building or bust. They're asking for a system that meets the standards set by a traditional AH, whether it's scrapping the Wards and setting up a new system *or* simply upgrading the Wards that offer all the same things. Almost anybody asking for an AH would be perfectly happy with upgraded Wards that fit all those same standards and needs.

What we are asking for is the standards of the AH concept to be met, not necessarily an entirely new building with "Auction House" written on it if the concept can be realized through other means.

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nah shin. That's exactly the problem. If you read through this thread you'll notice that most "AH-fans" (at least around here) aren't asking for that. They're asking for a rather abstract entity that's named "Auction House", looks like an "auction House", works exactly like an "Auction House" in their favourite game of choice.
If the market wards were to evolve in something that has the full functionality of an "Auction House", but they were still called "Market Wards", it still wouldn't be good for them.

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Originally Posted by Ostia

Metracritic is pretty good, and your argument that the reviews of this game are outdated blablablabla, well they dont hold water, when you consider that the population of this game, is Worse than when those reviews came out :)

If the game was 100% better than when it was released well.... where are the players ?

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Aside from the fact that lately I've been seeing a lot of people from the first months come back, you're skipping a link.
You assume that players that left the game previously know that the game is improved, and that the game is improved enough for them to come back, or simply don't have anything better to do with their lives.

Denying that the game has improved massively since launch is (which doesn't mean that there still isn't a truckton of room for improvement), honestly, extremely laughable. But you're free to do that if you like the idea of publicly looking like a fool.

Reviews of this game are outdated simply because many of the flaws they complain about simply don't exist anymore, or have been largely mitigated.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

nah shin. That's exactly the problem. If you read through this thread you'll notice that most "AH-fans" (at least around here) aren't asking for that. They're asking for a rather abstract entity that's named "Auction House", looks like an "auction House", works exactly like an "Auction House" in their favourite game of choice.
If the market wards were to evolve in something that has the full functionality of an "Auction House", but they were still called "Market Wards", it still wouldn't be good for them.

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For unreasonable people, yes, it wouldn't be good for them. Some people will NEVER be happy. But it's also highly unreasonable to say that given all the same benefits and options of an AH, just without actually calling it an AH, most people would still be saying, "I want an AH!"

A rose is a rose by any other name, and people can smell an Auction House, even if it's called "Market Wards" still.

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Originally Posted by Ostia

Metracritic is pretty good, and your argument that the reviews of this game are outdated blablablabla, well they dont hold water, when you consider that the population of this game, is Worse than when those reviews came out :)

If the game was 100% better than when it was released well.... where are the players ?

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I know the population isn't what it was when it first came out. But the server I'm on is far from unpopulated or even feeling the effects of a population decrease..

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Originally Posted by Abriael

If the market wards were to evolve in something that has the full functionality of an "Auction House", but they were still called "Market Wards", it still wouldn't be good for them.

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Link me to the post where anyone asked for a functioning Auction House and said that they won't accept it if it's still called "Market Wards". Then, and only then, will I consider this ridiculous statement to be credible.

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Originally Posted by trinta

Link me to the post where anyone asked for a functioning Auction House and said that they won't accept it if it's still called "Market Wards". Then, and only then, will I consider this ridiculous statement to be credible.

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Well... thats kind of what they are going towards now but people are asking for them to scrap that and just start over and call it an AH.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Well... thats kind of what they are going towards now but people are asking for them to scrap that and just start over and call it an AH.

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This. 10chars.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Well... thats kind of what they are going towards now but people are asking for them to scrap that and just start over and call it an AH.

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Again, citation please.

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Originally Posted by trinta

Again, citation please.

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You're a big boy/girl. Go read back through the last 11 pages of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

You're a big boy/girl. Go read back through the last 11 pages of this thread.

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See, that's the thing, I have read this thread. And I must have overlooked where people are insisting that the name "Market Wards" must be abolished. Surely the people who *did* see these claims would be more able to locate them again.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Well... thats kind of what they are going towards now but people are asking for them to scrap that and just start over and call it an AH.

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But people would be content with a new system from the ground up *or* a fully functioning AH even if they're still called "Wards".

Think about it this way: you want pizza, but I give you some uncooked dough. Okay, that's not what you want. So I take that dough, fix it up, call it "ShinChuck Surprise" (insert joke!), and it looks, tastes, smells, and feels like a great pizza, you and the vast majority of people asking for "pizza" are not going to be eating my creation thinking, "Man, but I still want pizza, this is ShinChuck Surprise, not pizza."

"When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck." It's absurdly unreasonable to accuse everyone asking for an AH as being so unreasonable they would not accept a fully-featured Wards that met AH standards, let alone insulting to imply we're too dumb apparently to appreciate a rose because it's called "stenchblossom" even though a rose is exactly what we want.

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Originally Posted by ShinChuck

But people would be content with a new system from the ground up *or* a fully functioning AH even if they're still called "Wards".

Think about it this way: you want pizza, but I give you some uncooked dough. Okay, that's not what you want. So I take that dough, fix it up, call it "ShinChuck Surprise" (insert joke!), and it looks, tastes, smells, and feels like a great pizza, you and the vast majority of people asking for "pizza" are not going to be eating my creation thinking, "Man, but I still want pizza, this is ShinChuck Surprise, not pizza."

"When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck." It's absurdly unreasonable to accuse everyone asking for an AH as being so unreasonable they would not accept a fully-featured Wards that met AH standards, let alone insulting to imply we're too dumb apparently to appreciate a rose because it's called "stenchblossom" even though a rose is exactly what we want.

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Then the majority of this thread is the result of failed communication. I don't think anyone would would say that the Market Wards don't still need work. But asking to scrap them and start over is ridiculous. We could have a "market ward system" with all the features almost everyone wants in just a month or two. Or they could scrap it and we will have an AH with all the same features 6 months from now... >.>

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Then the majority of this thread is the result of failed communication.

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This thread is about ducks isn't it?

I want an Auction House.