the need for 3rd tank class

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

No, there isn't. You know what you don't see? 3-tank runs for Garuda extreme. Why? You don't need a third tank, and you do need DPS. Even if you for some reason favor the triangle method for Garuda, you'd be a fool to give up a full DPS for a gimped one just to do one trivial job.

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3 tank run?

Well, you have to bring 2 tanks for DF. I mean, this class is supposed to complement a main tank much like scholar and white mage (although they can both main heal).

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Adding more tank classes will not make people want to play tank more. Either they want to play tank or they don't it doesn't matter how many classes there are that can tank.

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If Dragoons had been a tank class and retained their Jump abilities, you can be damned sure there'd be a hell of a lot of tanks in this game.

It's not really about the role. People buy into the concept of class archetypes, and an MMO character is an extension of the player.

They can get more tanks by re-designing tanks to be more fun. Right now due to the long GCD and nearly every ability being linked to it, they are more frustrating than needed.

-End-game boss cast times tend to be shorter than the GCD. This means Shield Bash cannot be used to interrupt if I am doing a Halone combo to maintain threat. I can't react, and that is frustrating.

-Even if I do get the ability off, nearly every time the boss is immune to stun because other DPS classes have been spamming Stun as part of their own rotations.

- Paladin DPS needs to be increased, leveling up 1 to 50 is incredibly frustrating due to the low DPS. It doesn't have to be the same as a DPS class, it just needs to be better than it is right now. I don't know why Sword Oath is an auto-attack buff; Blizzard tried that auto-attack DPS nonsense 30 different ways with WoW Paladins and finally had to admit it is stupid design. With the amount of movement needed in this games, ability created burst damage will always be superior to auto-attack, both in practicality and in fun factor.

-Halone combo needs to be tweaked. Forcing Paladin to go through 3 GCD before they generate a spike of threat is dumb. There needs to be a way to generate burst threat other than spamming Flash (which does absolutely no damage). Fast Blade and Savage Blade need an increase in their enmity modifiers and/or increase in their damage, or both.

-Tanks need to be a little more iconic to the Final Fantasy universe. White Mages, Black Mages, and Dragoons are very clearly iconic FF classes, but Warriors and Paladins don't have any ability that screams "Final Fantasy" to veterans of the franchise.

I don't think it's a matter of how many tank classes are there. It's a matter of how many people that is willing to play tanking in general.

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Originally Posted by Nanamix

I don't think it's a matter of how many tank classes are there. It's a matter of how many people that is willing to play tanking in general.

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If they made a new tanking class called Soldier who wields a large Cloud-style Buster sword and gave the class all of Cloud's limit breaks as abilities....there would be an explosion of tanks in this game.

It's not the role. It's the way the player feels about the character archetype.

Paladins and Warriors just aren't very "cool" as compared to other classes like Dragoons, Summoners, and Black Mages.

I suppose it may depends. But a gunblade tanking class would be exceptional.

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Originally Posted by Nanamix

I suppose it may depends. But a gunblade tanking class would be exceptional.

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We have that, it's GLD13

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

If they made a new tanking class called Soldier who wields a large Cloud-style Buster sword and gave the class all of Cloud's limit breaks as abilities....there would be an explosion of tanks in this game.

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Not to be mean but I don't really want my tank to be this guy. Like I don't want my tank to be someone called DarkNarutoCloudSephirothXX UchihaIchigoWhatever. People like being cool but the fad is going down fast and what is left is tanking. They'll ask for their tanky to be able to specialize in DPS. Like some people want to turn their Warrior into DPS because Warriors look awesome and wild but tanking is so "boring" dude.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Paladins and Warriors just aren't very "cool" as compared to other classes like Dragoons, Summoners, and Black Mages.

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Lol ... Did you ever read the Summoners' topic ? Many are complaining they don't feel cool at all. They want their big awesome summons like in FFXI.

just going to say I have a lvl50 healer and lvl50 dps.

If they released a dark knight/shadow knight type of tank I would level it :)

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Originally Posted by XNihili

Not to be mean but I don't really want my tank to be this guy.

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I wonder what portion of Warriors usually play tanks. It was an issue, at least back in beta, where players would be MRD and not realize that they were playing a tank until people yelled at them in dungeons.

TBH, I think there's some truth to the idea that different tanks would attract some more players, but I think many of the approaches are wrongheaded. Dark Knight wouldn't do much -- some people would try it, but many would just turn away and not care about more of the same. WAR already scratches that itch. Instead, try a Mystic Knight, give it an AoE where it flashes in a circle with a flaming blade to generate aggro on nearby targets, see if you don't get a few new faces showing up to try their hand. Or maybe an Evoker who calls the spirits of beasts on enemies or a Dimensional Mage or a Berserker or any number of other ideas which attract players who just aren't interested in more of the same.

I didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know what all has been covered, but in order to improve que times for DPS, the group sizes need to be increased to allow more DPS into each group. This would increase how quickly DPS get into groups. All that then needs to be done is increase the HPs of the mobs/bosses to accommodate the additional DPS in the groups.

4 player -> 6 players: 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 DPS
8 player -> 12 players: 2 tanks, 2 healers, 8 DPS

The 12 player groups will be a bit more hectic, and maybe too many DPS for 2 healers to manage. Would need experimentation. Would need good AoE heals. Main tank healer and AoE healer.

Adding a new tank class or two won't help. People who are already playing a tank as a main will prob try the new tank class. People who do not like tanking will not play the new tank classes. There will be some players who dabble in tanking who might play with them for a bit, but they would never become their main.

As said a 1000x, its not the classes, its the responsibility, demands, and criticism that keeps people from playing tanks. I don't have numbers, but its my personal opinion that most people are thin skinned like me, and don't want to be yelled at by some punk in a dungeon when trying to play a tank. It ruins my desire to do it again. Sure, some see that as a challenge to get better, most won't. This is a concept that those of you with thick skins or are just oblivious to criticism just cannot grasp.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

If they made a new tanking class called Soldier who wields a large Cloud-style Buster sword and gave the class all of Cloud's limit breaks as abilities....there would be an explosion of tanks in this game.

It's not the role. It's the way the player feels about the character archetype.

Paladins and Warriors just aren't very "cool" as compared to other classes like Dragoons, Summoners, and Black Mages.

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I completely disagree. I don't care how cool they could make a tank class. It won't change that fact that many players do not like the responsibility, demands, or criticism that goes along with playing a tank. You must be one of those thick skinned people that are not bothered when people yell at you.

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Originally Posted by Valendore

I completely disagree. I don't care how cool they could make a tank class. It won't change that fact that many players do not like the responsibility, demands, or criticism that goes along with playing a tank. You must be one of those thick skinned people that are not bothered when people yell at you.

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I agree to a certain extent, but also disagree. Yeah, currently you either need thick skin or don't play the Tank role due to how disrespectful people tend to be towards that role.

To say a new tank class/job would not be incentive enough for more people to opt to play the role, I disagree with that. I personally would be more inclined to do so with a fresh, creative tank class/job, and my biggest reason for not wanting to play a Tank class/job currently is because of how other people treat you while being the Tank regardless if you do everything right or not. I enjoy tanking and all the responsibility that it entails.

Speaking of feeling weak as a tank (damage dealing wise), why not have a drk tank that...steals the dps party members' attack strength (regardless of physical and magical)?

Quick example:
A party where pld has 150 dps, and 2 dps with 300dps versus (totalling 700 dps not counting healer)
With a drk tank constantly absorbing energy from other dps: drk 300 dps, the other 2 dps will have 225 dps (totalling 700 dps not counting healer)

-Drk tank gets to have big numbers and feel like a dps while still tanking
-Drk as a tank wont have to rely on enmity multiplier as much for aggro
-Actual dps members might get to get into df dungeons faster, they just have lower numbers with a drk tank around
-Total party damage capability will still be similar to a standard pld/war tanking group

Can even have an overload mechanic where the drk has to control his leeching intake or he will explode. Or find another name for it if people really dont like drk tanks.

There's also plenty of space for a 3rd tanking class even if they do share some overlap. Hell WoW had 4 of em and they all managed well enough. Just looking at the game's mechanics that are already in place they could make a Tank with the Pugilist stance system. Maybe go a Samurai route that shifts between blade stances, one stance for damage, one stance for enmity, and one stance for mitigation. You can even give him a high level OH-SH!T skill that combines all three stances for a short period of time. While in theory it's that same thing that all of the other tanks do, in practice it's a faster paced play style that may attract some more people.

Also, if we are talking about design ideas for new tanks. I don't know much of what has been in Final Fantasy games previously, only what is currently present. I feel if they had a Tank class/job focused on the opposite of what a Paladin is centered around, but benefiting from doing the opposite. Like for the WAR if they choose to not mitigate damage they tend to do more dps, but at the cost of taking more damage, so what if we had a Tank class that actually benefited from not using buffs.

So, the more damage the Tank received without mitigating any of it, the more bonus DPS they would receive. The Tank class/job would have to find a balance in taking damage to boost their dps and switching to taking damage to boost their ability to mitigate damage. It sounds similar to what we have currently, but it is still different than both the WAR/PLD tanks currently.

Their main focus would be always aiming to take more damage to either benefit how much dps they put out or how much damage they can mitigate to keep from dying to certain in-game mechanics. This would be different as they wouldn't need skills that mitigate damage or increase dps, but maybe instead focus on giving them a little utility. I mean the warrior takes more damage, but has higher health to compensate for that or they can not use Defiance and dish out more dps, but with no real added bonus for doing so. Paladins can switch between Shield Oath or Sword Oath. Where as this Tank would have Stances that would put their dps higher than both current tanks, but still under DPS roles as long as they take unmitigated damage, or they can choose to not get the added bonus to their DPS and be able to mitigate damage. Just my thoughts.

hmmm I think they need to make a new tank, neither better nor worse than current tanks in dps or defence, but make it flashy as hell. Make it real eye candy, something players would feel good using simply for that cool factor. DPSers and healers can see their progress directly in their healing/damaging and lends to e-peen appeal....but yh tanks need a revolution.

The problem with FF is that tanking is too simple. In Tera, a really skilled tank could hold agro and dish out dps that wasn't very insignificant....a crappy tank would would either lose agro through not dealing enough damage, or turtle up behind a block skill far too much, and lose agro through not dealing damage at all.NOT saying we need a system like tera, but ppl enjoyed playing tanks there....the damage was nothing at all like a dps but there was satisfaction to it because tanking itself wasn't a total walk in the park.

What the main problem is, and has been since the dawn of MMO's. The main reason why there is always a shortage of Tanks, and Healers. That the majority of the player base (in any MMO) does not want the responsibility of those two roles. In any party who is the first classes to be blamed if something goes wrong. The healer, and the Tank. "OMFG HEALER L2HEAL BETTER!!!" "FFS TANK WHY CAN'T YOU KEEP THREAT GAH YOU ALL SUCK I'M OUT I HOPE YOU ALL DIE IN A FIRE!!!".

I've said this before, but the only people that will level newer tank classes are the people that play tank now, its the not the class/job so much as the baggage that comes with it that keep the majority of people from playing them.

This issue will never be a lack of interesting tanks to appeal to people. The issue is the responsibility of tanking that a majority of people would rather not deal with. It's much easier to do what you're told and do damage as a fun class than it is to control the pace of a dungeon, marking targets, tank swapping, kiting and any other responsibility a tank might hold. You will find this trend in every MMO, not just this one. Fun is subjective but a majority of players are DPS for these reasons. Adding a new tanking class inflates the amount initially but it's always trended back to the issue of DPS being a dime a dozen.

They need to release more diversity for gameplay, right now playing a pld is boring, you only use one combo to keep enmity, everyone plays in the same way, we need our own play style. I know everyone is sick of people saying back in xi or back in 1.0 we had better choices, but its true, 1.0 gave a lot of customization, so you would see a pugilist tanking the dodores easily as evasion tank, gladiators using different skills not just the same rotation, marauder being an AoE tank, so you would play according to the situation...

Right now the armory system isn't working, you have 2 subjob choices and a very straight forward choosing, using the logic, I would prefer several choices as we had in 1.23, im all up for the role restriction but it is too restricted, theres a few games that I've been playing and im overwhelmed on the quantity of choices they give and how different the class is played with this.

Just saying we need more freedom

BTW, I remember all those classes being a DPS, not just a tank, gladiators had lesser numbers but could hold damage better, marauder was a very good dps with all the AoE skills it had, pugilist was very good dps in one on one bosses and I didn't felt like a burden the tank role, actually was fun.

If no one wants to tank with a PLD or WAR. What makes you think a 3rd tanking class will fix this? You need to fix the current problem now and make them fun to play before you start adding more tank classes and still yield the same results. Start at the core,add some flashy animations, make them look inticing to play, people like seeing big numbers so make it happen even if you have the rebalance all the dungeons. That's better than having over 75% of your playerbase sitting in rev toll starring at their party finder/duty window hoping a tank pop up for hours.

add a 3rd tank class is nice but would not affect Tank population much. there will be a small increase in population but not enough to affect Tank population in a larger scale.

It not about the gameplay of tank class/jobs but the task and the pressure they are given by other players.

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Originally Posted by Synthesis

Then the common party setup would be 2 healers and 6 tanks who do dps like all others dps classes. so lol.

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an easy way to balance this is to make a class that actually has to stance dance to survive and do damage.

Make it so that in one stance they take little and do next to little damage. in this stance, their enmity dwindles quickly. They switch to attack stance where they get hit hard, and hit really hard, while enmity ticks higher...

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Originally Posted by Valendore

You must be one of those thick skinned people that are not bothered when people yell at you.

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With all the abuse Dragoons get, don't you think they'd be unpopular if that were the determining factor? If all you want is big numbers, well, did you notice that WAR bashes out 1k+ crits in unchained+berserk? And why is it that players are so quick to declare that all tanks are fundamentally tank players?

There is no one factor that leads to a shortage of tanks.

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Originally Posted by Ericyu

If no one wants to tank with a PLD or WAR. What makes you think a 3rd tanking class will fix this?

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If no one wants to play the DPS job MNK, what makes you think that they would want to play the DPS job BLM? They do they same thing, after all.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Make it so that in one stance they take little and do next to little damage. in this stance, their enmity dwindles quickly. They switch to attack stance where they get hit hard, and hit really hard, while enmity ticks higher...

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Uh, so you can't tank at all, just hit a button to survive AND drop enmity. That makes you a great DPS and a useless tank.

I don't get why people say you need to fix something with the current tanks or make something flashy about them. Literally the reason why a lot of people choose to not play a tank is not the responsibility of a role, but how other players treat new tanks or tanks in general. I personally hate tanking with random people due to this reason, and not the responsibility and all the other aspects that the Tank role entails. I feel less likely to queue up in DF as a Tank after having just done a dungeon as one and dealt with Elitist or very disrespectful players targeting things toward me because I am a tank.

Whether they did it due to proving they are better and I should do what they say even if I have done everything fine, or they want to point out every small mistake I might make instead of trying to give me helpful advice. Another thing is Tanks also get blamed when other people, aka DPS mainly, do something like pull mobs before the tank is set up and everyone wipes.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Thaumaturge actually was a healer as well originally, along side nuker..think FFXI RDM/SCH.

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On a side note, I've had to heal on THM/BLM three different times when a healer either rage quit or DCd until we got a replacement. Once in Toto Rak, once in Brayflox, and once in Cutter. I actually found it quite doable in those dungeons. I took a certain degree of pride in being able to enfeeble, nuke and heal without anyone dying.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

On a side note, I've had to heal on THM/BLM three different times when a healer either rage quit or DCd until we got a replacement. Once in Toto Rak, once in Brayflox, and once in Cutter. I actually found it quite doable in those dungeons. I took a certain degree of pride in being able to enfeeble, nuke and heal without anyone dying.

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Welcome to the everyday life of an Arcanist as we leveled up. A combo of Heal and DPS isn't impossible to do. Sometimes you have to prioritize one over the other.

As for Tanks. I started leveling my Marauder. I will NOT be leveling him past level 15 since that's the general level to unlock other Jobs as a sub class requirement. I hate every moment I'm playing as the Marauder. I went in with a fairly open mind that it won't be that bad...I was horribly wrong. Class is so boring to play and level, I don't think it nor Gladiator will every get above 15 with me. If another Tank class is introduced with similar play style I very well may never play a Tank ever for group play. (No its not hard, just incredibly boring. I have 5 levels left and want to cry)

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Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

Welcome to the everyday life of an Arcanist as we leveled up. A combo of Heal and DPS isn't impossible to do. Sometimes you have to prioritize one over the other.

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Well, at least ACN gets a native heal. I was ghettoing it. But yes, I've had to do that on ACN as well, when you suddenly find yourself without a healer and have to make do for a time. BLM was certainly harder to keep up with healing, though.

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Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

As for Tanks. I started leveling my Marauder. I will NOT be leveling him past level 15 since that's the general level to unlock other Jobs as a sub class requirement. I hate every moment I'm playing as the Marauder.

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The melee classes are nigh-indistinguishable from one another at low levels. If you hate it, that's fine, but every melee class is going to be the same slog for you. More than anything, I feel that it speaks to the need for a tank job which is not like the two present ones.

There isn't a need for another tank class. There's a need for less DPS classes.

I don't usually play a tank. My forte is playing the role of melee DPS. But I always play an unstoppable heavily armored unit in every game I play, because that's the kind of class that I like the most.

Like me, I believe people choose to play the class that they do because there is something that they like about it that is not relevant to the role that it serves in a group environment.

Melee DPS are pretty popular in games like these, yet the incentive to not stack them is generally to just have them die instantly when they mess up or make an encounter more difficult if you have too many of them. Sometimes I just wonder why all melee DPS aren't just tanks.

If the player base had an option of 8 different tanks and only 2 dps...the ratio of dps to tanks would still be the same.

Most people don't like tanking or the responsibility that comes with it.

In DF, I have to almost psych myself up to tank a dungeon.

Things that go through my head are - Will the healer want to heal...or just DPS? Will that lvl 46 archer (not bard b/c he's only deeps yo!) run ahead and pull packs of mobs cause that's his job? Will the Boss do a mechanic that randomly targets a party member (2nd boss WP) and the party freaks out "keep hate tank WTF!!!1!" Will someone say, hey...this tank doesn't even use Rampart...what a noob when I am clearly a Warrior.

Now when I queue for dungeons as a BRD...I can sit back and watch tv and not deal with ... not the stress...but the ignorance of many many players.

As most of you say, it's responsibility, i'm the kind of guy who will take the lead on a dungeon, or make an strategy, most ppl don't like this, i really enjoy it, i like this pressure, but when it comes to primals or bosses it's very different, ifrit was the first obstacle, PLDs had to stun him (this doesn't work anymore) well it was easy. after that came garuda, a battle where the tank have all the responsibility, a wrong step and the whole pty is dead, i considered this battle a pain, now i can do it with np.
with 2.1 came ultima HM, EX primals, pharos, there you have ultima, the tanks have to switch tank, an overused mechanic in new content, we had to make the balls explode and use LB, it was a pain, but easy. then there is siren, we tanks have to take some adds because the DPSs cant kill them asap, we have to stun siren, even when there are dragoons or bards in the party, we're the ones stunning, this battle was also a pain, but well we are tanks we are supposed to have take more pressure than the rest of the party. then i tried Garuda ex, to garuda, titan and ifrit EX i just can say **** IT!

I mean seriously? all the pressure we tanks have to take in these battles is so overwhelming, every mechanic SE adds to new content is designed to stress the tanks, these battles are drastically reducing the number of tanks in the game, even if we get another tank class, most will give up in garuda HM, the ones who can pass her will the hit garuda EX who is 100 times worse, in the end of the (made up numbers) 1000 players trying the new tank only 5 will keep playing it to the very end. and SE is still wondering why is there a tank shortage.

In my case i only use my PLD with friends, because they will forgive my mistakes, and even if the pressure is the same, i have their support, i'm a tank but i will rarely use DF.
In terms of wait times, i'm another lost tank.

I want another tank class, just for the fun of playing it, but this won't fix anything.

I think more tank and healer classes would be fine. Make them over powered. Give them some exciting dps traits. Dress them and sell them as dps but with tank and heal abilities (obvious they have to fit in the heal and tank slots in parties). But make the requirements for getting these new classes hard so not everyone and their neighbor can pick them up. Not selective tho. Like I wouldn't say, "requirement you must be in an FC" (solo players screwed) or "you must have your chocobo's fighting tree maxed out" (annoyingly to hard) or "all crafting at level 50" (not everyone's cup of tea). That just seems to invade people's right to do as they please with what's been given. So I'd make requirements something new never yet done.

tbh i only read a few posts.

but we do NOT need a new tank!
we need the party formula to reflect the players.
make 8 mans w 1 tank

or better off, do away with this draconian idea of the holy trinity. it is dated and only serves to gate that which does not need gated.

Make a magical tank class

and make non magical healing class like a chemist

I feel the game and the community isn't ready for another Tank Class. It's a niche role with a community and game that gives it little breathing room or development in general. Another Tank Class isn't going to fix anything with the Role having core issues as it is. My post isn't referring to player skill at all or the hardest piece of content in the game currently.

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Originally Posted by joshsecret

tbh i only read a few posts.

but we do NOT need a new tank!
we need the party formula to reflect the players.
make 8 mans w 1 tank

or better off, do away with this draconian idea of the holy trinity. it is dated and only serves to gate that which does not need gated.

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There are games that do away with the holy trininty and well, its a bloody zergfest without a group feeling.

A hybrid tanking class may help.

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Originally Posted by Renik

...every mechanic SE adds to new content is designed to stress the tanks, these battles are drastically reducing the number of tanks in the game.

In my case i only use my PLD with friends, because they will forgive my mistakes, and even if the pressure is the same, i have their support, i'm a tank but i will rarely use DF.
In terms of wait times, i'm another lost tank.

I want another tank class, just for the fun of playing it, but this won't fix anything.

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Basically what this guys said. I pretty much play a tank in most games. This is the first game where I dont want to tank anything but T5. And there is no incentive for me to tank anything else in this game. Dungeon gear is basically trash, and there is no other reward from it that would make it worth doing. And i think many of the other tanks here will also agree that they only tank for there small group. Which is severely crippling the amount of tanks in the duty finder. The ilvl jump from dungeon to lower lvl tomb to zerg raid, ct, to top content, coil, is ridiculous. SE has essentially made a few core design features that are terrible for the community.

Those being that SE has actively worked to dissuade ppl from playing alts. I mean in wow i enjoyed tanking on my dk, war, pld. I mean tanking same content but the classes provided the difference that made it enjoyable.

So if SE wants more tanks in circulation they have to start by making the tanks they have want to play non-raid content. Simple as that. Adding new classes or dumbing down the responsibility will just result in a short spike but then return to the status quo after fotm wears off.