We're going to make the game a bit more tolerable for melee DPS

Every game I've played has crapped on melee in one way or another. Garuda's actually really easy if you're only taking one (like you should be). Just do nothing on the Wicked Wheel phases. Your BRD + Requiem + 2 Casters should be able to handle them all just fine.

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Originally Posted by BrandoH

Just do nothing on the Wicked Wheel phases. Your BRD + Requiem + 2 Casters should be able to handle them all just fine.

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Yeah, cause each and every group always runs with 1 Bard and 2 Casters ...

Meh, melee gets shafted on garuda but is optimal for titan so seems okay to me.

Not to mention melee (namely monks) have the highest DPS on every single fight no matter what mechanics hands down. (maybe except SMN on multi targets)

Look at the Skills Garuda Does before the wicked wheel. Here Let me make a small chart for you so that you can fill in the blanks :

1) ? <-- This is the skill that tells you a wicked wheel is coming
2) ? <-- This is the skill that you move out of range when you see it.
3) This is the Wicked wheel that you will dodge if you can fill in 1 and 2.

Now - go do your research and figure it out.

As a Monk - the only time I lose my stacks is when we kill the spiny. At that point it doesn't matter. This is doing the Kill Surprana only strat as well where the melee are standing right on top of Garuda and Surprana.

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Originally Posted by NightReach

Not to mention melee (namely monks) have the highest DPS on every single fight no matter what mechanics hands down. (maybe except SMN on multi targets)

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I wouldn't lump DRG in with MNK as being the highest dmg just because they are melee. While Monk does have the highest dmg on most fights, as they should, DRG normally does not outperform or are equal to BM or SMN on most fights with very few exceptions. Unless the DRG is more geared than or much higher skilled than the BM or SMN.

Even if it were the case that both melee outperform ranged dps on all encounters, you wold still see Ifrit EX groups who refuse to bring melee at all. That fight is the perfect example of how SE is currently making encounters. The fight is not only extremely dangerous for melee themselves, but having them puts an incredible amount of strain and higher competency of play from the entire group in order to accommodate them because of the mechanics of the fight.

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Originally Posted by HaiHai

I wouldn't lump DRG in with MNK as being the highest dmg just because they are melee. While Monk does have the highest dmg on most fights, as they should, DRG normally does not outperform or are equal to BM or SMN on most fights with very few exceptions. Unless the DRG is more geared than or much higher skilled than the BM or SMN.

Even if it were the case that both melee outperform ranged dps on all encounters, you wold still see Ifrit EX groups who refuse to bring melee at all. That fight is the perfect example of how SE is currently making encounters. The fight is not only extremely dangerous for melee themselves, but having them puts an incredible amount of strain and higher competency of play from the entire group in order to accommodate them because of the mechanics of the fight.

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This right here is what the op and everyone who agreed to this thread has to say this is the exact wording and representation, hit it right on the nail man

Most DRGs should outperform most MNKs on most fights. DRGs are much, much more resilient to mechanics compared to MNKs, especially after 2.1.

Wicked Wheel places a target on the tank when its getting ready (crosshair thing) I believe, I noticed it last night.

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Originally Posted by Makado

Wicked Wheel places a target on the tank when its getting ready (crosshair thing) I believe, I noticed it last night.

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That is downburst from Suprana. The OT gets a similar one

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Originally Posted by Makado

Wicked Wheel places a target on the tank when its getting ready (crosshair thing) I believe, I noticed it last night.

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In the intermediate phase, the first WW comes after Garuda uses Friction. Second WW comes after Garuda's Downburst (Slipstream -> Downburst -> WW). Third is immediately after Slipstream and only shows up if your DPS is so low that you're pretty much hosed anyway. In the tornado phase, the WW comes right after Suparna's Slipstream. Everything follows a script, so it's seriously just rote business getting it down.

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Originally Posted by Simurgi

This is doing the Kill Surprana only strat as well where the melee are standing right on top of Garuda and Surprana.

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Interesting way to do it, thanks.

I think there are currently a few ways to play Garuda EX depending on the capability of your MT. I've been hearing from various skilled MT that they can either dodge the WW perfectly or they just man it up and eat the double WW but without dying.

Nonetheless if your MT isn't that confident nor capable but if you have a capable team of DPS (in a non all ranged setting), maybe you can try this. I've done this with a JP DF group and we one-shot it easily.

I was BRD, we had one melee. During tornado phase, MT takes Garuda, OT takes Suparna. I pop my offensive CDs and burst on Chirada so I'm the hate holder. I'm already positioned at 7 so I can just pull Chirada easily rather than a DRG/MNK to attack and craw over while other DPS has to self-control and hold DPS. All 4 DPS with 1 healer was on my side at 7 o clock.

The reason why I tanked instead of DRG tanking is because it would be a waste for DRG to tank as he cannot flank and backstab. BRD doesn't do too bad in tanking. We only ate the slipstream which wasn't a problem because the other healer that is not with us at 7 o clock casts Cure III on us to top us back. We killed Chirada soon after and did not eat any other major damage other than that slipstream.

It was way better than other times when DRG was the DPS tanking. It would be plain horrible or DPS is really slow because the poor DRG isn't doing his proper rotation.

What most of you forgot/misrode was that the original complain was not "Melee does too few damages" or "It's impossible to play a melee" but : SE is having a hard time putting fairness in encounters. In most battles when I read/hear the strategy and begin to experience the fight my first reaction is always "Why the hell am I melee with tons of constraints while I could be sitting as a ranged in the middle and move twice in the battle?". You can be melee and have to have high chances to be cleaved, aoed, not allowed to reach a target or be distant and move once every minute because there's an aoe that was finally launched (I know I'm exagerating it, but most should get the point).
For those who love difficulty above anything else melee will fit you, and I understand and respect that. The problem appears for those who love their class (DRG in my case) but have a hard time accepting that 9 encounters out of 10 are designed to give a hell to melee while ranged don't have to sweat much to stay alive.
So the answer : "Then just go playing a ranged and stop meleeing, you're a bad player anyway!" isn't acceptable. I do love DRG, it's the unfairness of encounters that are frustrating me. I like a game being hard (coming from WoW I would find FF14 a bit too much easy and lacking super hard end bosses that retains a serious guild for downing them for a week or more), but i like it to be as fair as it can and not being one same role screwed 90% of the time.

If you look through this thread most answers will be : "Because you're doing it wrong, if you do this then that, then this when there is that happening or that when this is happening, then that guy does that and then this etc. you'll be allright!". When did you had to put something like that for ranged? Maybe 2 battles on the game?
I admit that TitanX is nicely designed for that: everyone got the same job and difficulties along the encounter, and I appreciate that battle for that.

As a tank, I salute you melee DPS. You're doing the hardest job here.

Individually, the balance isn't an issue. As a party comp, it definitely is. That's what bothers me.

So many fights have to compensate for a melee player in some way. It's not an issue if it's one. When it's 2, then we've got more problems.

Dragoon and BLM fill a similar niche, burst + good aoe.
Similarly, Summoner and Monk are strong single sustained with ramp up. (not that smn is bad at aoe or anything)

As such, with four slots....one of those pairs should be able to replace the other.
My static has a DRG and I play a MNK most of the time. We have a SMN and BRD otherwise.
We can do many things with this comp. But I also play a BLM and in many cases it makes it much easier to do that.

The DRG should be filling in the BLM spot, but it really doesn't.

If we do Ifrit EX with 2 melee, the healers swap. It's not a big deal but it's like we just added an extra mechanic they wouldn't need to care about otherwise.
If we do Garuda EX with 2 melee, well you've heard the complaints. I only think it's bad with 2 melee though. Also with none, tanks have much more freedom of movement in their sections.
If we do Turn 2 with 2 melee, someone has to ferry the rot (if you take the left side, which we do....and don't use the enrage method). Really?
We haven't even tried Turn 4 earnestly with 2 melee and a bard. However, I understand this case simply because the division is physical and magic damage. No real complaint there.

We are not class stacking anymore than having 2 different casters is. Why do melee have to inconvenience other people by existing in the comp?
The single target LB should never be an excuse. Caster LB is great for a lot of situations, but they never have to make-up for its viability.

The token melee is usually fine, but why do we have to be token? Any Comp that does not stack classes should not be less viable unless the division is physical and magic (which is only T4).
1 BRD, 2 casters, 1 melee =/= 1 BRD, 1 caster, 2 melee
But it should be equal.

The only meaningful "the fight is harder" is with turn 2 ADS where the melee have fun moving the rot around. Even that is obviated by the stack method (although that method has other impacts so I wouldn't recommend it).


For everything else, the difference is negligible, although stacking melee on T5 is going to be rough on Twister phase. Range-stacking Ifrit EX removes the howling mechanic, but /shrug. The fight isn't too difficult with the mechanic, and the # of melee don't make a difference.

In addition, if the group wants to use the "range stack south" approach on Ifrit EX, that is also possible with 1 melee -- the melee can spread DPS and tab DoT all the nails south and on the opposite side of the howled healer. They will contribute normal DPS to the nail phase and the nails will die in a normal staggered fashion. No big deal.

Garuda EX is pretty easy if the melee are competent. They can simply eat the WW straight on with defensive cooldowns. Pretty trivial to 4x melee that fight. If I can sell Garuda EX with 2 melee and 1 range DPS, any group can sure as hell do Garuda EX normally with 4 melee. Tbh the tanks don't need to pay too much attention -- the melee just need to pay attention to the cleave areas and the WW timing.

It would be great if everyone found it as easy as you but, unfortunately, difficulty is subjective. Many people struggle with the existing mechanics as is without adding a new one to accomodate a melee or two. It's easy to say to them "get better" but the majority will just pick an easier route. Which usually involves bringing less melee. Not for all fights but for a fair amount.

With a random group of 8 there's a fair chance that one of the following is true in a Garuda Ex fight:
A. The tanks will struggle to swap spiny for the sister in the tornado phase or to stabilize Garuda in the corner so WW is dodgable.
B. The healers will struggle to keep a DPS alive when he suddenly drops to 500 health after eating a WW with cooldowns.
C. The melees will struggle to live through WW.

So for many players, they just find the path of least resistance which is oftentimes to take less or no melee.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Most DRGs should outperform most MNKs on most fights.

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I have to agree with this. At least on any fight that is mechanic heavy.

I play with a drg sometimes and I beat him on any fight where I am free to pound on boss with little to no offtime. Now on fights like Garuda EX and Titan EX he beats me. Not by a lot but I just can't keep up on those fights. Garuda its the added danger for wicked wheel on me. Even with cooldowns it can shot me where he can take one to the face with cooldowns. Titan EX I am not really sure exactly what it is that allows him to pull ahead but I am assuming its because for the second half of the fight I am more likely to lose positional bonuses.

I have been tempted to finish gearing up my Drg so I can switch depending on the fights. I don't play drg enough to know how good they are at keeping themselves alive.. I know playing bard I feel really week compared to monk.

I run Garuda as brd now. Gear isn't as good but I make the fight easier on everyone that way. Titan I go monk cause why not? Ifrit I do as melee and the only issues I have had is ranged running to fast and healers just not watching what they are doing. Tanking is more fun on ifrit than dpsing though so yeah...

honestly we need more melee friendly boss like Aceron sure his pattern spots is fun

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Garuda EX is pretty easy if the melee are competent. They can simply eat the WW straight on with defensive cooldowns. Pretty trivial to 4x melee that fight.

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That's true EMX, but don't forget a point: you're doing GarudaX with a complete ilvl90 gear. The battle wasn't intended to be done with that, it's "tuned" for ilvl80 or something like that I believe. At that level of stuff even with CD you got high chance to get a deadly hit. And most DRG going on that fight aren't ilvl90. They will learn to avoid the WW, but that hurt dps a lot and make a group wish to take a distant rather than a melee, who at best will dps less and at worst will die.
At least as DRG we got a lil advantage toward monk as our gear got more defense than magic defense. So far it's the only AoE I watched that is physical type, every other avoidable/unavoidable aoe i checked on the primals is magic type and makes us (DRG) the squishiests of the group :/ You can check on every Titan/Ifrit aoe in your logs in live you're always the one that takes the more damages in the group (I am at equal or superior ilvl than the other, ilvl 89 so that's not a matter of gear, and of course that's without BfB up). What I couldn't check is if a MNK/BRD got a little HP than us at equal equipment to counterbalance that inequality. At first thought, I would have said DRG would be pretty resistant and easier for healers to keep alive, in fact we are the worst class for them, taking more mana from them than any other class. For exemple, sadfully tested on TitanX yesterday: if the whole group takes a full stomp with no heals everyone survive except me, the last hit of the stomp bring me down, while BRD/BLM/SMN survive. At that moment you really feel lonely.
Does any other DRG confirms that, or am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Migosha

That's true EMX, but don't forget a point: you're doing GarudaX with a complete ilvl90 gear. The battle wasn't intended to be done with that, it's "tuned" for ilvl80 or something like that I believe. At that level of stuff even with CD you got high chance to get a deadly hit. And most DRG going on that fight aren't ilvl90. They will learn to avoid the WW, but that hurt dps a lot and make a group wish to take a distant rather than a melee, who at best will dps less and at worst will die.

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The gear doesn't really have that much impact on the Garuda EM fight. You just have to adopt your strat to a melee friendly version. There are strats that allow for amlost maximum melee uptime without the risk of ever having to dodge a Whicked Wheel or even take it to the face. Strats have been posted across several threads (incl. this thread), so I'll leave it up to you to dig them up.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

The only meaningful "the fight is harder" is with turn 2 ADS where the melee have fun moving the rot around. Even that is obviated by the stack method (although that method has other impacts so I wouldn't recommend it).

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I agree partly and that speaks well of the balance to some extent, however I don't think the difference is negligible or trivial.
Now, it is. I'm not sure about your static but we didn't one shot any of these fights.
Not saying they're difficult, but a melee is a minor hindrance and having 2 is a straight up handicap.

When content is on farm, it's a horrible time to judge it. I'm not saying gear makes it trivial.
It doesn't, in most cases. It's the fact that learning the fight with two melee is significantly harder than with one.
There are added mechanics or a larger margin for error.

Maybe it's just cause progression is the only time I really consider a fight important.
Who cares what happens when it's on farm? Take 4 melee to down Garuda EX for everybody's first time. That'd be horrible.
Take 4 range, and it'll probably be pretty smooth. That's all I'm talking about.
You're adding to the learning curve the more melee you bring and, worst of all, you're probably making it harder on your healers/tanks when they could have focused on other things when learning the fight.

Larger error margins or mechanics are the things you try to eliminate in a fight to get it down.
Coming as a melee, you bring that with you for the job you picked. At least, for our group, I don't find that trivial.