Watching content before actually doing it?

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Originally Posted by Hanemakikaze

Problem here is, this isn't related to watching video, this is just a bunch of liars trying to get carried, and it will always show and I'm sure you like anyone else that actually have the full clear experience can tell with these players. The issue there is that they are flat out lying to an entire group of people, video does not count as experience and anyone joining a farm group like that should be kicked and not waste peoples time who are there for farming with other experienced players for loot and not just a win. Not to say being new is bad, but lying to get into group with players who are trying to get gear so you can squeeze out a win if possible is not cool.

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agreed. its a real pain the butt

Yep, getting real sick of endgame PF groups not allowing anyone who hasn't already won the thing once before join.

Well that's just great, how do you expect people to get experience in an event if you never let them do it? And no, having an FC is not the magic be-all end-all answer (I do have one but it's not overly large and we're not all always doing the same thing - god forbid I be able to just try something with other people.)

What I would do then, is form your own. Check the new player friendly or whatever selection. Check it out, learn the fight, and win! Folks are free to host their own runs with their own critera. They may not have a lot of time, and don't want to have to teach someone a fight, so they want only folks that have done it before.

I like to host my own to help teach folks fights in my downtime, and always try to help those that need like a chimera/hydra/titan HM...instead of getting frustrated, be proactive and be a part of the solution, pay it forward!

both camps have reasonable PoV:

Some people enjoy learning first hand and developing strats.

Some people enjoy being efficient and prepared.

The key is to find like minded people to play with. Don't assume random people in random groups (or pugs) have the same gaming values that you have. Personally, I rather be more efficient, so I only play with like minded people. I don't bash people that like to go in blindly, but I don't have to play with them either.

There is a whole different level between "know what you are doing" and knowing how to play the game. I could care less if people watch videos if they can see red and dodge. Simple as that. Those who made the videos did not know what they were doing before they entered. Personally, I have gotten farther in content with duty finder with people who are learning than in party finder with supposed people who know what they are doing. Basically, because the whole mindset is off. Impatient players who expect to win every time, and have 0 deaths. There are usually three of those to every one person who is "being carried" as some people call it. Learning a run, and being carried are two different things.

This being said, people who are dead set against watching videos are stupid as well. Entering an instance is like entering a battle, or more pertaining to this situation, a sporting event. Team A does not just run in to fight Team B without doing a little research into the challenge they are about to endure. This comes in many forms, but one of the most prominent is watching videos of Team B in action, to develop a strategy to win the game.

Seeing a vid allows you to see, but experiencing it will always be better.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Those trash packs before bosses? There's no point. Bad design just to waste people's time. We want only bosses. New content that gives lower item level? There's no point. Devs must be out of their minds to expect us to have fun without rewards!

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This is one of the things that kind of irks me.

In my experience, there's always this subset of the community that will point at the hardest content and call it babby-mode while demanding more and more of a 'challenge' since too high a percentage of the player-base has become capable of doing everything.
If you make the claim that they only want something harder with new rewards because they like to ensure that others don't have what they do, they'll repeatedly insist that it's not about the rewards and they solely want something more challenging.
If the developer then puts out harder content without any new reward, the response suddenly becomes, "WTF? That's retarded! Why would I suffer through something so hard if I don't get anything for it?"

:-/

That said, as for the main issue being discussed in this topic, the biggest issue in my eyes is the game design. When you have this whole 'carrot-on-a-stick' style of linear progression with all the rewards back-loaded, and then make the content such that it requires other players to do well, it just invites the mentaility that they're nothing but tools (and a 'necessary evil') for each person to accomplish their goals.
It's partially why I prefer the whole idea of little vertical progression, 'rewards' being distributed throughout the content, and levels/encounters that encourage 'playing alongside others' rather than completely relying on them. :-\

Edit: Also... I'm not fond of how pervasive wikis and video sites have become for these games in general. The fact that devs can now just assume you can just go find the info out of the game tends to lend itself towards lazy design with things being poorly implemented or described in-game. It hasn't been much of an issue here so far, but for other MMOs I've played, it's become a major annoyance...

The people who are saying "we don't need to know anything besides how to dodge red circles" make me sigh. No, not every single fight is simply dodge the red circle. Sometimes there are attacks you need to move out of as a tank that don't have red circles, sometimes you need to have groups split up in two and and stack, sometimes adds need to be faced a certain way or placed at a certain area otherwise you wipe, sometimes certain adds need to die in a certain amount of time, etc, etc. You can still wipe if you go in blindly and "know how to avoid red circles."

Sure, wiping x amount of times to figure out a fight might be fun to you, but not everyone sees it that way. Not everyone has time to whittle away doing it. Not going in blindly doesn't make someone a "bad", likewise going in blindly doesn't either. It's preference.

If you want to demand it be one way or another, I suggest making your own party finder group.

I totally agree with this. And I try to refuse to watch videos, but falling for the ppl bashing me if I don´t, I have to admit I do... I do miss the good old days when tactics were EXPLAINED and EXPERIENCED and not watched on youtube. If one person is new, they should be able to say so at start and the rest of the 7 that knows the fight shouldn´t really have a hard time teaching it to him/her tbh. If you fail at that, then maybe you should play something with less online time. I really really miss the time when you could meet new people and not being afraid that this or that person will insult you, knowing full well, they know nothing about you.

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Originally Posted by Axidrain

if ur going at instances blind and failing, then expect to be verbally abused. :)

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Lol wut? You have serious issues dude. Because you never died to anything right? Dying over and over on a video game with no death penalty is not a good reason for verbally abusing people. Even if there were a death penalty it's still not acceptable. Explain to that person what to do. All you really need to say is when to stack because its obvious they should dodge everything. Or what heart/plume/add to kill first.
Don't want to type? Add em to your TS/Vent/Mum/etc server, add em to a Skype call so you can call the moves out. In my old LS when I first joined they invited me to a skype call to explain when to stack,etc.

People like you are ridiculous and I'm willing to bet this easy mode hello kitty clone is the first game you ever made it to end game in.

Honestly expecting everyone to watch videos and then nerd raging like an idiot at those who haven't is just stupidity at its best. I've lost count how many times people leave or vote to kick those who haven't gotten fights down before even attempting the fight because someone was new (some of those admitting not watching a video when asked) or if the party happens to wipe even just once because someone hasn't mastered the fight yet or even those whom know the fight well but made a honest mistake. Often enough a few insults (not helpful advice to teach others) are thrown out before the person(s) with anger issues leave. Great way to build a healthy, fun, and well skilled community.

Besides not everyone learns the same way, some people can watch a video but need attempt or two of hands on experience to get the fight down.

You'd think by now these people would learn to either make a party on their server with their FC/LS or use the PF to ensure smooth/serious runs but no.

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Originally Posted by Lumiin

Lol wut? You have serious issues dude. Because you never died to anything right? Dying over and over on a video game with no death penalty is not a good reason for verbally abusing people. Even if there were a death penalty it's still not acceptable. Explain to that person what to do.

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You can explain something over and over to some people and they simply won't get it or refuse to get it - Take CT for example, "Stand on the platform, stay on platform and interrupt the Dira"..yet what do people do? They run off the platform or refuse to stay on it. People get "abused" when they start forgettin common sense and how to dodge, not because they're new. At least that what I've seen, since some people got abused for constantly dying to stuff you can easily avoid by not standing in front of behemoth for example.

Why would you ever stand in front of a boss when you're not a tank?

The biggest problem and the cause of more wipes than people who are virgins to an encounter, are the .... let's say... "folks" --instead of something meaner-- that think because they've seen the video, they are any better than people who haven't watched a video; and worse, think they know the encounter now. I've cleared the EX's, T1-4's, and even a titan HM -for what that's worth- with people who never watched a video much more easily than the people who claim to know what they're doing. In truth, they have no idea because they only watched a video.

If things deviate, in any way, from what this "experienced" person saw in a video, they: cannot adapt to survive, are stunned and usually the first to die because it is not what they were ready for, and then will proceed to tell people with 20 kills under their belt that they suck (the people with 20 kills)... "the people in the video i saw didn't do it like that."

It isn't the fault of the video watchers. We should take pity on them, for they are misguided. I think people watch videos, then join "exp only" groups because they fear they'll never find love as a newb. But please, please, please!!! for the love of all that is holy, unholy, semi-holy, or other... stop pretending that you have experience because you watched a video.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

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Still doesn't justify being a jerk and verbally abusing people. Just leave or vote kick.

This is the age where people ask questions over social media when, while they are online, they cannot be bothered to look up information on their own via search engines and other resources.

As for me, I look up strategies and watch videos not because I don't want to waste other people's time. No, I watch them because I don't want to waste my time, or embarrass myself in front of strangers. It's an entirely selfish motivation.

Are we talking about statics or pugs?
My opinion is different depending on which.

Failing at Super Mario doesn't inconvenience 7 other people.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Isn't that exactly what the videos are for?

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Who said they're not?

Watching the video is just the same as having someone explain it to you. If you are ok with someone explaining the fight to you but claim watching the video would 'ruin' it for you, then you are nothing more than lazy or perhaps do not have the means to watch the video (Perhaps A PS3 player without a PC, which is understandable.)


Regardless of all that, the simple fact of the matter is that the gamers of MMO's are coming to expect people to know the fight and know their job. When I got to twintania, I had never done Twisters. But I watched a video on how to move, and how to dodge the attack, and surprise - I never died to Twisters.

But I think it is both rude and disrespectful, in any content, to enter in and expect people to just 'deal with' you as you 'figure out the fight.' I think the Party Finder is great for this mindset, and I think people should use it. But I think the ultimate problem is, neither side is overly sympathetic to the other, and merely demands that the other use the system that's there because they don't want to be bothered with it.

However, I think it is just as rude, if not even more rude, to verbally assault, hurt, or berate someone who enjoys that playstyle, even if it's in PUG content. We all need to be willing to say, "It would help if you would watch this", and if they're adamant, give them a shot - if they fail... well, there's always the kick function if it's inconveniencing three other people, and they should simply understand that is the risk that comes with it.

If you watch a video and claim to have the same experience as some one who has cleared it then your deluding yourself. I watch videos and written guides for places like AK,WP and the 3 new dungeons. No i did not say i'm new i need to know how to do this fight. After watching the guides i was more then able to lead and clear the new dungeons without wipes.

If i'm doing something much harder like ex modes or Bcoil then i will say I am new, i have watched/read guides and then ask if their is any specific way the group does things. even with watching guides i have a chance of making an error but the % and the amount i make are allot less in these types of fights because of the time taken to learn prepare for them beforehand.

my point being no guide is bad its the players forcing their ideals on others. I think i'm on the middle ground with this subject, i don't expect people to watch a video guide if their new. I do expect them to look up a written guide, Why? because if i have to sit there and type( again and again .......) then i would rather say take a few minutes and look up a guide on IGN for example.( apart from any specific tactics we may use i cannot explain the things better then a written guide).

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Are we talking about statics or pugs?
My opinion is different depending on which.

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For statics, I would actually want people who are capable of going into fights without looking up guides. Nothing worse than having new content out and half your static group too scared to try the hard modes and stuff, wanting to wait until guides and videos are out so they don't "waste time". My Ulduar raid basically lost steam after we downed Yogg normal and people just wanted to farm normal mode, unwilling to even try the hard modes (even though we were perfectly capable of initiating some of the hard modes).

For pugs, they're just that. I don't think we have any right to demand others to do preparation. It's a game. Not work. I didn't pay for their subscription.

Some of us forget that we paid our subscription to Square Enix, not to those people in the pug. Saying they're "wasting our time" is just trying to vent out on people.

Which really is the answer to this debate.

Did we form this party outselves? Whether it's a pug or a static.

• Yes. Then we are absolutely free to demand whatever of the members that choose to join us.
• No. Then we have no right to demand the mass population of players to do anything.

I for one find it more enjoyable when everyone does well or give a good effort. What's so fun about being a dead weight and causing your group to wipe over and over again? I know some players are quick learners but from experience, most fail miserably causing their group to wipe.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

If I have an hour to do CT + wait in queue, and get stuck in a group with someone who refuses to understand mechanics beforehand and keeps causing wipes, it is perfectly within my right to be upset that 1 selfish individual is making my goal for the hour undoable.

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Now we do see eye to eye on that one. My first CT run I didn't watch a video and we didn't wipe once. Every other time I have been in using DF it has been a total <snip> show.

My main issue with the videos is there is always some derp saying "hey this is me ... look how cool I am" for 2 min. Then you get the meat and potatoes. I honestly would rather read bullet points and look at positional diagrams similar to a football playbook.

I am in a unique position where I have about 4 hours a day to play so to be honest I don't mind taking my time learning and teaching. But there is something more exciting about the experience than the spoiler. When they added the new content in 2.1, for instance Haukke Manor, the bosses AoE had an exciting oh <snip> factor. Being spoon fed everything is just boring for me.

That being said, I wish the mechanics were more random self adapting AI, where real skill in playing would come into play. Rather than this easy learn mechanics = win.

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Originally Posted by Imapooonu

Who said they're not?

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No one. I just think it's more convenient for everyone to use what's already there.

I like having new people in DF groups. Tell them the wrong thing and watch them die. Then sit and laugh at their dead bodies until you too die to the boss :)

No seriously, I really do like having new people in. Feels fresh.

Quote PvP : Fresh Meat

Watching a video to show you how to do something would kill the game for me.
It's getting the answer handed to you instead of the fun of figuring it out for yourself.
I thought that was what people liked about games.
Must be just me then :)

If you don't want to watch videos then use the Duty Finder to learn the fights until you feel comfortable to join a Party Finder group, or create a learning party in the PF. You don't have to watch the videos.

It isn't fun being the dead weight in a dungeon. I done Cutter's Cry for the first time last night and got to the final boss, the Chimera. Now before I went in one of the other players explained to me the violet/blue eyes deal and I understood it.
The problem was, I was too busy watching the other players health bar that I didn't see when the eyes were changing. so we died three times.
I told them that if they wanted to kick me, they were welcome too as I would understand but they refused to kick me and were nice about it. We finally got it done.
For some reason all the players gave me a commendation.
Now I think that it only took the woman two lines of text to explain to me what to do in the fight. Watching the video wasn't necessary and I think that watching the video isn't exactly playing the game to its fullest but everyone can play the game whatever way they want. :)

There are different contexts to which this would apply. Hop in Duty Finder for Ifrit Extreme? You better know the fight. Join up for Chimera? Nobody cares, you can even die and go afk. If you create a Party Finder for a specific event, make sure everyone knows you're unprepared. It will save people time.

The original poster seems like one of those regular weak-links who want to be carried through any situation. No, you don't have to watch videos. But, no, you won't be allowed in most experienced groups.

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Originally Posted by Rupart

The original poster seems like one of those regular weak-links who want to be carried through any situation. No, you don't have to watch videos. But, no, you won't be allowed in most experienced groups.

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Actually you being baby fed the answers in advance is being carried through my friend. I agree there are different contexts like people asking for experienced players, that's totally fine. My post is about doing things yourself. A couple of runs through any dungeon or boss and most will become experienced enough to do it all by memory because this games dodging is very easy, avoid the giant circles and colors.

This thread wasn't meant for arguing who is a bad player or who are people just wanting to be carried.[I don't understand that anyways, why play a game for others to beat it for you, if that's the case why are you playing in the first place? Don't even buy the game, watch it played on youtube]. Just an observation that many require knowledge before actually doing something meant to be done from scratch anyways. Imagine if the game is new and no guides exist. You have so much more fun doing it with your team, in my experience anyways and it doesn't mean you'll wipe, chances are many play these games since forever and adapt to the situations thrown by bosses and mobs anyways. And later on you ran everything so you can do it with much ease anyways. Why make the first attempt a no brainer by seeing all the content.

When this game was brand new i imagine people had fun even not knowing how to fight something perfectly until they got it just right. This is not being carried.

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Originally Posted by ulti_19

because this games dodging is very easy, avoid the giant circles and colors.

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Why make the first attempt a no brainer by seeing all the content.

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Claims game is very easy (a no brainer).

Then asks why make the game a no brainer by knowing what to do beforehand.




Why are you playing, again? Apparently everything is very easy anyway, so isn't the game just handing you a win even when you walk in without any experience?


Again, knowing what is going to happen, especially when 3-23 other people are relying on you to not mess up, doesn't mean you will do it perfectly the first time. It just means that you will do it better than you would have had you gone in blind.

As someone else said, if you don't want to do it to make things easier for the others in your group, then at least do it so you don't look like an idiot for not having gathered basic intel. Choosing not to do so makes you look lazy and makes it obvious you don't care to be a team player.

Alternatively, make your own groups with the sole purpose of going in blind to start with.

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Originally Posted by ulti_19

The no brainer part refers to knowing every step of the attempt without having done it, ex, watching a guide.

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Just because you know how something works doesn't mean you can implement it perfectly the first time you ever experience it. Children "know" how to drive vehicles by the time they are ~7, but you wouldn't put a 7 year old behind the wheel for obvious reasons. Going into a fight blind is akin to doing just that, without the mortal danger.

I know I'll never convince you otherwise, but going into a fight blind when the information is so readily available is rude to the other players in your groups, and reflects badly on your willingness to be a team player.

"unforgiving mechanics"

This is what makes this game good tho :) I do agree with OP but the unforgiving mechanics make u really strive for perfection in the current job ur playing, it is great, if u down all 3 ex primals well that's great u have MADD skills. Ifi can't beat them don't get down n out just keep ya head up :) yo will get it one day.



I found my self finally beating Titan hm on BLM a while ago, now I'm getting scholar relic, just coz I know the fight, don't change anything I'm usually the first to die lol :)

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Originally Posted by Little_Aussie_Mhigo

"unforgiving mechanics"

This is what makes this game good tho :) I do agree with OP but the unforgiving mechanics make u really strive for perfection in the current job ur playing, it is great, if u down all 3 ex primals well that's great u have MADD skills. Ifi can't beat them don't get down n out just keep ya head up :) yo will get it one day.

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Only if you play with no weak links. Which means you have to play within a circle of players you trust in order to get things done. Even then it's just learning rotations and phases. Of course beating any "hard" is fun even if it's cheap hard.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

Claims game is very easy (a no brainer).

Then asks why make the game a no brainer by knowing what to do beforehand.

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You misunderstood me. I said dodging is easy in this game, I didn't say the game is easy. Just because someone can dodge well won't stop ex titan to dps the hell out of everyone:p The no brainer part refers to knowing every step of the attempt without having done it, ex, watching a guide. You used my quotes completely wrong. And again my post is directed at doing stuff for the first time. My experience with this game is amazing, I love it. I wrote this because I've seen many people who sometimes die get flamed like hell because they were new and replied no to watching a tutorial. I saw this multiple times so I brought it up.

I've trained garuda fight few times now and despite what you might think reading this forum everyone has been nothing but supportive and helpful.

DF groups are rarely a negative experience. The community has taught me how to tank better.

Please don't expect every player to know everything because there will be a time when you're going to need their help too.