Warrior Tanking

I loved the mechanics but unless they overpowered (lol get it?) the self heal, we'd still be weaker tanks that require gear vs PLD straight mitigation cooldowns. We tanked stuff that PLD did, but required higher gear standards and that's not good.

Bloodbath, SP and IB would have needed massive buffs to be worthwhile.

However, SE made their choice and I still love my WAR. It's been my main the entire time and I'm not changing that.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

A class is defined by its playstyle, not by the mechanics used. WAR has always been defined by Wrath generation and management rather than the self healing that you (and many other people) focused upon to the exclusion of pretty much anything else.

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Actually no. Proactive tanking vs reactive tanking is a playstyle, more than a mechanic.
2.0 warrior was waiting for spike damage to happen THEN popped Inner Beast to recover.
2.1 warrior tries to pop Inner Beast BEFORE the damage to reduce it (which is a lot harder, you cannot simply hold on wrath till something happen, you have to know when something happens and anticipate). This impacts the way a warrior manages wrath, because the goal is now to have wrath built for specific points in the fight.
So the playstyle changed.

Let's say we switch Inner Beast on a 20s CD with no wrath involved. The mechanics would be different (no wrath to manage), but the playstyle of the class would pretty much be the same: chain combos for enmity, debuff, buff and pop special ability.

So the nature of Inner Beast (reactive or proactive) is a playstyle.
The mechanic is building wrath or dealing with another resource like timers, tp or mp.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

Actually no. Proactive tanking vs reactive tanking is a playstyle, more than a mechanic.
2.0 warrior was waiting for spike damage to happen THEN popped Inner Beast to recover.
2.1 warrior tries to pop Inner Beast BEFORE the damage to reduce it (which is a lot harder, you cannot simply hold on wrath till something happen, you have to know when something happens and anticipate). This impacts the way a warrior manages wrath, because the goal is now to have wrath built for specific points in the fight.
So the playstyle changed.

Let's say we switch Inner Beast on a 20s CD with no wrath involved. The mechanics would be different (no wrath to manage), but the playstyle of the class would pretty much be the same: chain combos for enmity, debuff, buff and pop special ability.

So the nature of Inner Beast (reactive or proactive) is a playstyle.
The mechanic is building wrath or dealing with another resource like timers, tp or mp.

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lI rejoiced to see a logical argument against Kitru on these forums, because the fact that it *can* be done resonates in my soul.

However I disagree. The crux of the argument is the same as the 'WAR is built around self-healing'. Inner Beast. Inner Beast is one skill that does not truly define the playstyle as reactive. The only difference between the *timing* of Inner Beast now and then, if the delay of one GCD. You still had to get your stacks up or Infuriate before the big hit, you just fired the IB in the GCD after the hit. Now you fire it off the GCD before the hit. You still have to know the hit is coming, you still have to preemptively prepare your resource (be proactive). Heck, if there are no fights with a timed big hit, you get to use IB even more because you don't have to worry about the overheal. Generally speaking, none of the other WAR skills are as useful reactively (ToB can be used before or after, but using it before prevents the OHKO).

The reason that Kitru says that WAR is centered around wrath stacks is BECAUSE of the last line of your post. Wrath is another resource like timers or MP...which you use to increase your damage, do a big AOE hit, or increase your mitigation. It's also an exclusive resource to WAR, which strongly suggests it's what the class is built around (versus one skill that is consumed by said resource). DRG = Jumps, MNK = GL, WAR = Wrath. Losing the requirement to manage wrath would drastically change the playstyle of the class because those stacks are a limited resource that you have to have up when you need them, and have to make the choice on the proper skill to use them on. If WAR didn't manage wrath, then SC = CoS, Unchained = Extraneous DPS Cooldown, and WAR >> PLD.

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Originally Posted by Zegreiart

I never once mentioned I have issues with managing wrath stacks.

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Identity is mostly perspective; the only "true identity" we have/had for WAR is what SE has given us, WAR is the "show-off" tank. I'm sorry you don't enjoy WAR any more because of a few adjustments, sure it's a shame, but the basic playstyle hasn't changed.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

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Actually, proactive v. reactive is defined by class/job mechanics; while those (mechanics) can define a playstyle, it usually requires a stronger emphasis on the ones that would define so (2.0 WAR was not quite sure what it was, imho). A class's/job's playstyle is defined by the sum of it's whole, at the core of WAR is Wrath.

Wrath, as it is today, is barely a playstyle or a mechanic. Would you do BB and SP combos without wrath ? Yes, you would because you need to build aggro and get that 10% DR on the mob.

Wrath as it is now, is only a way to prevent us from spamming IB and SC. We would juste play the same way if IB and SC shared a single 20s coodown. Wrath is a cooldown in disguise, nothing more, nothing less.

Really, in terms of gameplay (mechanics) and freedom to adjust how you deal with stuff (playstyle), wrath as it is now, does little to nothing, because we're not choosing between building or spending wrath, for different benefits.


And yes, War 2.0 was meant to be reactive, because it was centered around using IB to recover from a big blow, and using abilities like Vengeance and Berserk to finish a 5 stack faster in order to recover (which implied some little management). Thrill of Battle aside, warrior had no proactive CD to pop to anticipate incoming blows and ToB is double-edged because it can also be used to recover.

Paladin was more proactive, with a ton of CDs to pop before damage, and a single one to recover: Convalescence.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

And yes, War 2.0 was meant to be reactive, because it was centered around using IB to recover from a big blow, and using abilities like Vengeance and Berserk to finish a 5 stack faster in order to recover (which implied some little management). Thrill of Battle aside, warrior had no proactive CD to pop to anticipate incoming blows and ToB is double-edged because it can also be used to recover.

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Now you've lost me. Foresight, Featherfoot, Vengeance, Berserk are all (even in 2.0) proactive skills. You weren't using them to counter something the enemy HAD done, you used it ahead of time. I already said ToB could be proactive or reactive. Inner Beast is one skill that's not even Warrior exclusive(big hit + self heal? hrm...Life Surge). The only thing exclusive to Warrior is Wrath.

I'm not even sure why you continue to say if IB and SC were cooldowns nothing would change, because right now, IB and SC aren't on 20 sec cooldowns. It's an either/or situation, with Unchained in the mix. How would NOT having to make that choice of what to spend stacks on not fundamentally change the nature of the class? Because you still use Butcher'S Block?

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Originally Posted by Nalou

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How is managing Wrath not WAR's playstyle? "How do I want to build Warth?: How immediately do I need a full stack? Can I casually build it? Go through your combos. Do I need it very soon? Am I at more than 3 stacks with a Wrath combo ability pre-loaded and/or Berserk ready (or will I not need Vengeance soon?)? Use preloaded combo ability and/or pop Berserk (or Vengeance). Am I at less then 3 stacks and need to use IB/SS now? Pop Infuriate. Am I at full Wrath and don't need to use it now, but soon? Sit on it unless you Infuriate is ready and you won't need it in the foreseeable future."

WAR only had one really reactive ability (arguably 2 if ToB was beneficial to use after the fact) in 2.0 and it relied on wrath management; it was also pretty weak w/o buffs and relied heavily on gear. WAR also had/has 2 proactive abilities (Foresight and Bloodbath) and 3 Wrath management abilities (Infuriate, Vengeance and Berserk).

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Originally Posted by Hitokirinomad

Foresight, Featherfoot, Vengeance, Berserk are all (even in 2.0) proactive skills.

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Yes, but defensively speaking they are (were) really weak. You don't pop Foresight to mitigate a table flip or a Spaceship crash.

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Originally Posted by Skull_Angel

How is managing Wrath not WAR's playstyle?

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Well if you call this "managing" then it's probably better if we quit this discussion because we'll never agree.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

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I'm not sure what you're motioning at with your reply to Hitokirinomad; (unless you were geared out in 2.0) Inner Beast was a very weak ability as well, it required you to use Berserk and/or RNG (critical) to be a decent reactive self-heal. Yes, WAR's native abilities were (and Foresight and Bloodbath arguably still are) weak as well, but they were still part of the tool set.

Without properly "managing" your Wrath you could(2.0)/can(2.1) not properly utilize the strong abilities attached to it. Full Wrath isn't magically there when you need it, the enemy doesn't give it to you before it decides to use it's tank wrecking ability, you need to make sure it is available when it's needed; this has always been the core of WAR in ARR.

There's a reason why they moved the Healing Increase % from Wrath stacks into Defiance. So that you use the system they intended for you to use; Wrath skills.

Honestly, what I think some people would have wanted is mostly what we got, but left IB alone and made Foresight give the DMG reduction that current IB has.

That'd be pretty awesome to have. If you were geared enough to make proper use of IB. Cause self heals are terrible or over powered. Needs to scale with incoming damage, not outgoing damage.

Just to make it clear: I do not regret 2.0 warrior at all. I like the job how it is now.
I'm just trying to explain how 2.0 was reactive and how 2.1 is proactive.

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Originally Posted by Vactus

Honestly, what I think some people would have wanted is mostly what we got, but left IB alone and made Foresight give the DMG reduction that current IB has.

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That would just be turning Foresight into a Rampart clone. It would also be powering up PLD just as much as WAR since Foresight is a CC.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

I'm just trying to explain how 2.0 was reactive and how 2.1 is proactive.

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As was stated before, there was only a single reactive aspect to WAR in 2.0: Inner Beast. Even then, it was somewhat proactive because you still had to generate the Wrath stacks before you were able to make the response. Everything else that WAR did was proactive. People got *way* too hung up on Inner Beast in 2.0 and, because of it, basically thought that WAR was *all* about self healing when it actually amounted . The self healing was just the mechanic accessed by the defining feature of the WAR: Wrath. The defining feature of WAR is *still* Wrath and, in fact, because of the 2.1 changes, you are actually encouraged to use it *more*.

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Originally Posted by Vactus

Honestly, what I think some people would have wanted is mostly what we got, but left IB alone and made Foresight give the DMG reduction that current IB has.

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The name foresight seems to suggest you know whats coming, there fore should increase your passive mitigation (parry,dodge). The defense increase really doesn't make sense. And a rampart clone? I agree w/ Kitru, that's a poor idea. The spell itself does need help, I think it would be great if it would increase your available Wrath stacks or something to allow for a larger IB heal/buff time, or increase Wrath stacks so that you can build past five and achieve faster IB's at certain points in the fight. THAT would be far more welcome and creative, no?

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Originally Posted by Paikis

I'm quite certain that nobody cares, but I'm quitting.

Anyone who wishes to copy+paste this guide to continue it is more than welcome to. I do ask that you give credit where appropriate and make sure no one else has made a copy before you though, as we don't need 17 copies.

Thanks guys, it was fun while it lasted.

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When 2.2 rolls out, I'll consider it.

Maybe some would considerate it a noob question, but i'll give it a try : is accuracy that important ? I mean, I read somewhere our cap was 472 for BC. But since 2.0 and its huge aggro boost, does it matter if there are some miss occasionnaly ? Do I have to go absolutely for those 472 or can I be satisfied with 460 for instance ?

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Originally Posted by Flying-gg

Maybe some would considerate it a noob question, but i'll give it a try : is accuracy that important ?

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For everything but Coil, accuracy is basically worthless; you'll hit the required accuracy without even trying. For Coil, it does matter, but not so much for aggro generation purposes but for combo purposes: if you miss an attack, you don't get the combo credit, so missing a BB not only doesn't get you the enmity/damage, but it forces you to start over from Heavy Swing.

Ok. For some reason, I always assumed missing an attack allow you to try it with the combo at the exact same point.

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Originally Posted by Flying-gg

Maybe some would considerate it a noob question, but i'll give it a try : is accuracy that important ? I mean, I read somewhere our cap was 472 for BC. But since 2.0 and its huge aggro boost, does it matter if there are some miss occasionnaly ? Do I have to go absolutely for those 472 or can I be satisfied with 460 for instance ?

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Also, if you're like me and have crap luck in Coil, you'll have a lot of myth gear which the right side is terrible for accuracy. I use Stuffed Cabbage to make up for my crap accuracy in BC.

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Originally Posted by Vactus

Also, if you're like me and have crap luck in Coil, you'll have a lot of myth gear which the right side is terrible for accuracy. I use Stuffed Cabbage to make up for my crap accuracy in BC.

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Checked your profile - get the Dual Haken and Hero's earrings and you'll be at 481+. :)

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Originally Posted by Flying-gg

Ok. For some reason, I always assumed missing an attack allow you to try it with the combo at the exact same point.

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I know this was the case in arr beta, but I have no clue when(if?) they changed it. It's easy to get close enough to cap with some gryphonskin; I don't see much in the way of misses during combos, and haven't really pushed progression for a while.

sticky this great guide please!!!

Why is Allagan weapon considered best in slot over Relic +1 or Dual Haken?

Because the extra weapon damage from ilvl 95 > all.

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Originally Posted by Hitokirinomad

Because the extra weapon damage from ilvl 95 > all.

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(Also more VIT and STR)

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Originally Posted by Hitokirinomad

Because the extra weapon damage from ilvl 95 > all.

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I don't understand what that has to do with damage mitigation.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

(Also more VIT and STR)

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Is it really worth the huge parry loss?

It is.

Weapon wise, item level is "king" even more so than other gear slots. You do lose some parry, but you gain damage increase (just because you tank it doesn't mean you should not do any damage at all) and also the VIT increase is always useful.

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Originally Posted by EscapingJail

I don't understand what that has to do with damage mitigation

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The thing is the faster you burn down a mob or boss the faster you push a boss into his next phase the less dmg you as the tank are tanking and the party as a whole. That's why the wpn dmg is important and the stat boosts (vit and str) are increased at a bigger rate on wpns vs other gear or accessories

Hidden mitigation as I like to call it

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Originally Posted by SpinOff

The thing is the faster you burn down a mob or boss the faster you push a boss into his next phase the less dmg you as the tank are tanking and the party as a whole. That's why the wpn dmg is important and the stat boosts (vit and str) are increased at a bigger rate on wpns vs other gear or accessories

Hidden mitigation as I like to call it

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I would generally agree with this, but as certain fights in Pharos Sirius show, speeding through a boss can dramatically increase the damage taken by your party. In the vast majority of boss fights you're correct, don't get me wrong, but there are exceptions.

i wouldn't count on parry since a lot of damage nukes in this game happen to be magic anyways. so VIT is ur greatest stat, and DET behind that because of self heals, for warrior. It's nice when u parry twintania's attacks, but really relying on RNG is kinda risky. You'll have to be prepared to handle that damage w/o mitigating via dodge or parry. erego, VIT increase on weapon, self heals off more weapon damage, are the reason allagan axe is BiS

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Originally Posted by Mysteltain

I would generally agree with this, but as certain fights in Pharos Sirius show, speeding through a boss can dramatically increase the damage taken by your party. In the vast majority of boss fights you're correct, don't get me wrong, but there are exceptions.

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Exactly, in certain fights knowing the pacing is key. There's always exceptions. Once you get mechanics down you are good. Generally speaking though the more dmg your wpn deals and the higher your VIT the more mitigation your dealing with.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

A point I totally disagree on is your use of Flash and your methodology for handling AoE aggro.
[LIST][*]When it comes to enmity-per-GCD, Overpower vastly outperforms Flash. If your aim is to gain maximum snap-enmity when establishing aggro multiple mobs, Overpower is always the superior choice. That early aggro is critical, and you want to seal it with Overpower as soon as possible.
[*]Overpower also has many other benefits that Flash doesn't. It actually deals damage, it scales with gear, it can crit and it benefits from Maim, Unchained, Berserk, Internal Release. Each time you use Flash over Overpower, you're missing out on significant AoE damage.

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Im glad you stated this. When I read the OP write-up(very well written/informative BTW)I kinda cringed when i seen his recommendation to flash repeated times when pulling mob groups. The idea being "why waste the dmg output."

Glad to see some confirmation of the same thoughts I had.

Need some advice. I've dabbled in tanking in previous mmos (namely aion)...and while I dont exactly enjoy it, I dont hate it either, and would much rather do it then group with some tanks who dont seem to know they have overpower/flash. Long story short, I decided to level up a warrior after getting my relic to +1 on my DRG. Had no troubles what so ever in 4 man dungeons/ifrit hm/garuda hm...but mother of god titan...I cant tell if its me, or the groups im getting for the past several days.

Can get past heart phase pretty easy and can dodge bombs npnp but this is where I need some...clarification on what to do. Im popping inner beast before table flips and making sure storms path is up all the time, but its still hitting for 3300 give or take which is more then half my health. Im using ToB/Foresight/Vengeance when im not at full and a tableflip is inbound or if im at 50% i'll just pop lolmgang and convalescence (in hindsight I should probably stop using convalescence there since I just get benedicted =/)

My questions are...

1. Should I be using my CDs better or using them not just for tableflip, but also for stomps? I cant help but feel like if I used my cds not just for tableflips but for other things healers would have an easier time keeping eachother up.
2. Is my gear good enough or should I throw in some stuff from CT?
3. Am I just getting stuck with bad groups?

Gear is full Darklight+HQ Rampager+HQ Walnut bread. HP 6480 without food.

Back in the day that's what you had pre relic so your stats are fine and your gear is fine, if not above average.

Stomps are a healers and bard problem, the only thing you should do on stomps is storms path them so they do less damage to the entire raid.
If the healers are really good they'll stone skin you before a mt buster is incoming.

Save your cooldowns like vengeance / thrill of battle when you have to eat a bomb and mt buster because you will take a lot of damage around 8k total (bomb 2k rock buster 2k 4k mt buster) in a short amount of time. And never ever use these cool downs together. Holmgang is of course when the healers don't heal you enough and a mt buster is incoming.

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Originally Posted by Pentinor

1. Should I be using my CDs better or using them not just for tableflip, but also for stomps? I cant help but feel like if I used my cds not just for tableflips but for other things healers would have an easier time keeping eachother up.
2. Is my gear good enough or should I throw in some stuff from CT?
3. Am I just getting stuck with bad groups?

Gear is full Darklight+HQ Rampager+HQ Walnut bread. HP 6480 without food.

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Seems like it might be groups. Tanks have easiest job in that fight. I like to use convalescence before known dmg is coming. Also it's good to pair your other CDs with IB. First spike IB+Veng, 2nd spike IB+ToB.

Not necessarily in that order of use but idea is to pair IB with other CDs, should always be able to have time to either build wrath or infuriate. Also bloodbath, actually heals a good bit for its duration, pop whenever it's available.

As long as you are rotating CDs and keeping storms path up it's not on you.

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Originally Posted by Pentinor

3. Am I just getting stuck with bad groups?

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It sounds you are doing it right.

In fact, it seems your healers aren't doing it right, which can happen when dps aren't able to dodge plumes and stuff.
So, watch if people are taking damage from plumes when they pop. If they do, ask dps to be more serious or get them kicked, cause the healer do not have to handle people unable to dodge plumes, and won't be able to if he's not overgeared.

Once people do not take plumes anymore, watch if your healer is trying to get a stoneskin up on you before the table flip.
Titan's rotation is landslide > table flip > stomp or plumes, so the healer's job is to move out of LS then to cast SS on you to mitigate table flip. If the healer doesn't try (he might get interrupted) then he obivously doesn't know the fight.

After the table flip, he should be doing Medica II + cure spam when stomp or cure spam you when plumes (a bit slow cause he might have to run).

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Originally Posted by Cessna

Stomps are a healers and bard problem, the only thing you should do on stomps is storms path them so they do less damage to the entire raid.

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actually, post-heart, if you stun him as he does his 3rd stomp, you can ensure that he will only do 4. can save your healers some unnecessary casts. there's no cast bar or anything. just need to time it right.

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Originally Posted by Pentinor

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It sounds like you are doing you part.. Just a question, since I haven't seeen it raised yet, are you going with 2 whm or 1 whm 1 sch? In my exp having a sch is very helpful for War tanking this, due to the shielding they have access too. 3300 sounds about right after IB, but a nice Adlo will shield 600-800 (or double if it crits). Eye for an Eye can help, as does Virus and Sacred Soil if the sch can spare an AF stack. Ideally you want to be taking 2000-2500 damage. One time I took only 680 damage from MB, I was like "What!?!?!?!? lol"

That being said, I usually rotate Foresight, Awareness, and Featherfoot through the fight (rotate - not all at once). I save Vengeance specifically for the set of circle bombs after heart phase as there doesn't seem to be a safe spot, so I just stand in one bomb and eat that damage, making sure Vengeance lasts long enough to cover bombs and that particular mountain buster (this is also a decent time to use Unchained, as you will be able to build wrath up before next mountain buster). Try to save Conv and ToB for those oh crap moments.

Other than that, the only thing that will eventually hurt you is DPS taking unnecessary damage. Healers may get overwhelmed patching them up, and if it happens too often (especially if they need to start raising people) the healers may run out of MP. Titan is super easy to tank, but bad groups can hold you back.

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Originally Posted by Cessna

Stomps are a healers and bard problem, the only thing you should do on stomps is storms path them so they do less damage to the entire raid.
If the healers are really good they'll stone skin you before a mt buster is incoming.

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Just curious, why do you think it's the Bard problem? Do you still think Rain of Death does -10% dmg reduction? If so, they switched that in 2.1 to evasion down to compensate for Storm's Path

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

Just curious, why do you think it's the Bard problem? Do you still think Rain of Death does -10% dmg reduction? If so, they switched that in 2.1 to evasion down to compensate for Storm's Path

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Speedsong of course! Makes you look fast in combat.