The problem with allowing Turn 2 Rage strat

Why is this not considered an exploit, but doing the same thing to Twintania was considered an exploit?

Double standards.

because what was being done on twintania was actually taking advantage of a bug. This is intended mechanic with ADS if you can out heal his enrage its a viable strat. If you cannot then the normal method is your way to go.

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Originally Posted by Mailstrum

because what was being done on twintania was actually taking advantage of a bug. This is intended mechanic with ADS if you can out heal his enrage its a viable strat. If you cannot then the normal method is your way to go.

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The end result is the same: you circumvent every single one of the encounter's mechanics and it turns into 'kill it before you die.'
I'm not sure why SE invested any time in designing ADS with so many mechanics if none of them need to be dealt with.

This is a bad precedent.

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Originally Posted by Vladislav

It's a lies for those new ppl's who stepped in Coil after enrage strat popped up lol , T4 much harder that t2 (proper) . My team wasted only 3 days for complete T2 , then once we start did good we allways 1 shot it , BUT !! we still having hard time on t4 (idk why , maybe something wrong with us XD)
Oh and i dont care , SE fix T2 or not , if done this proper once , will do allways... at least if you in static team .

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They are fights that test different things. Turn 2 is a mechanics check with a very, very loose DPS check and turn 4 is a strict DPS/heal check with very few mechanics at all. I don't really consider one more difficult than the other once you are geared.

If it was a bug and you were not supposed to be able to survive enrage, it would be some other mechanic that would one shot everyone when you reached that point. It's working as intended and it's not a freakin exploit. Exactly the same mechanic as the end of T4, yet no one is crying into their pillows at night over healing through that now are they...

Let it go already. Stop trying to police how other people play the game. It has no bearing on you at all and it's frankly none of your business.

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Originally Posted by Finuve

I can't fathom why people want this changed. The fact that this was figured out is fantastic and as long as it is left alone means player ingenuity is celebrated as opposed to being crushed.

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Dark Devices showed 'player ingenuity' but SE stomped on it .. this is as much an 'exploit' as the DD one or the AK 'bypass the trash' one, SE are inconsistent in their application of the concept of 'exploit'.

You're only arguing it isn't because this is an exploit you probably use, unlike some others you didn't (or weren't able to even though you wanted to).

Gosh I love this enrage method very much.
It give people a chance to win T2 without worry much about Rot and other stuffs.
If OP or anyone who want to fight the old way, you can make pt to do it yourself!
( But I bet no one will join you lolz )

zombie + phoenix down or reflect + aoe your own group, anyone ?
i dont see any reason why it should be exploit as the enrage actually exists, if there was no enrage mechanic that would be something else

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Originally Posted by Finuve

I can't fathom why people want this changed. The fact that this was figured out is fantastic and as long as it is left alone means player ingenuity is celebrated as opposed to being crushed.

Glitches and exploits such as locking a mob from performing actions need to be fixed, but working within mechanics to find alternative solutions needs to be encouraged so that we can escape from the theme park design that is so enforced in modern MMOs.

Multiple solutions is the right way to go.

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Youre a DPS... not a healer.. not a tank.

of ~course~ you dont want it changed.

This game needs more players who play DPS classes have a challenge. I played Paladin and White Mage through titan HM and fell asleep at how easy it was when i went and did it for monk. I've cleared Titan, Iffy and Ruda Extreme as PLD.. you think i'm going to have issues when i go back on my monk? Absolutely not.

DPS (under current game design) have to only not ~completely~ suck at dealing DPS and dodge..

Tanks/Healers? Have to be pretty good at what they do, dodge, watch stacks, place unsafe mechanics in safe places, protect other party members, avoid unmarked un-indicated attacks, know when certain attacks are incoming to prepare for them and adjust accordingly, ... need i go on?



Development team please read what we are saying. We are not saying its an exploit. We are saying that we would like content that is not simply memorize it and win. We want either simply content that is difficult or at the very least content that is difficult as well as requires memorization (aka a mix of both difficulty and memorization.)

Turn 2 non enraged mode is a good example of what could be a design bases for difficult content.

Turn 4 is another example.

Please give DPS something to do besides just dodge and not be terrible at dealing DPS. Give them maybe a mechanic so if they get hit they dont take damage (which only makes the content difficult for healers) but something that renders them confused, or immobile or some other mechanic that cannot be esuna/leeches, like being unable to deal DPS at all, causing a wipe.

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Originally Posted by BrandoH

It's not fantastic, it's putting a bunch of awful players who aren't competent enough to complete T2 into T4, where they're even less competent.

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It's not like you can only join T4 if you have beaten T2 >.>

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Originally Posted by Petdo

( But I bet no one will join you lolz )

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According to the responses, plenty will.

That said, not sure if I am happy or disappointed with the official response.
Still doesn't take away that some of the arguments and assumptions by both parties for and agains adjustments are quite amusing to read still.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

I played Paladin and White Mage through titan HM and fell asleep at how easy it was when i went and did it for monk.

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Wait, did you just imply that there was a job more boring than playing PLD on Titan Hard?

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Originally Posted by Yenn

Why is this not considered an exploit, but doing the same thing to Twintania was considered an exploit?

Double standards.

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The Twintania exploit resulted in the boss just standing there doing nothing for 80% of its life. Same with the Titan bug that resulted in him standing there trying to attack someone he couldn't reach from 100%->0%. As in, those two exploits completely and utterly broke the encounter while the remaining players could run around doing whatever they wanted and not fear anything.

The T2 strategy, on the other hand, is deliberately provoking the boss into action. Ironically, its enrage mode is easier to deal with than its normal mode. What it's not doing, however, is standing there completely immobilized while the players kill it at their leisure.

Not a double standard. A clearly defined standard that, thus far, seems to have been enforced.

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Originally Posted by KraggyKor

Dark Devices showed 'player ingenuity' but SE stomped on it .. this is as much an 'exploit' as the DD one or the AK 'bypass the trash' one, SE are inconsistent in their application of the concept of 'exploit'.

You're only arguing it isn't because this is an exploit you probably use, unlike some others you didn't (or weren't able to even though you wanted to).

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People are arguing it's not an exploit because SE have said this is not an exploit (shocking right?). DD was not an exploit. Skipping trash in dungeons was not exploits either. They were only changed because of people like you screaming like a banshee about it. Exploits, exploits, everywhere!!! Standing in the tree for AK first boss to avoid all AoE dmg was an exploit. Sometimes I wonder if half of you even know what an exploit actually is.... - Little hint: It's not when someone does something differently to how you think it should be done.

If there are currently no plans to adjust this, then at least give the rot method a purpose. A reward, a bonus, an achievement, something... otherwise what's the point? You might as well remove all of the ADS mechanics since rage mode has become the standard amongst the player base. I personally prefer to deal with the mechanics because I feel it makes the fight a little edgier and it takes a little more degree of skill, but it's hard when ppl leave your party after learning that it isn't an enrage party (despite my specifying in PF).

All I'm saying is give dealing with the mechanics of the ADS a little more bang for your buck. If you complete the run within the time limit before enrage, maybe reward that with two chests. If you're trying to do it with a pickup heavy party, and you don't wish to endure hours of wipes b/c one or more ppl struggle with the mechanics, and you just want to clear the damn thing, then make the enrage method only reward one chest.

Or if you complete Turn 2 within the time limit before enrage, perhaps reward a third chest instead of taking one away if you don't. Instead of gear, the third chest could contain a housing item or some other rare/valuable item worth some $$$.

Just my thoughts...

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Originally Posted by TAS

If there are currently no plans to adjust this, then at least give the rot method a purpose. A reward, a bonus, an achievement, something... otherwise what's the point?

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The reward is five minutes of your life back every week to do whatever else is in game. I can understand why people use this. I've tried both methods myself. what boggles my brain is how, within the time limit, we can kill more nodes and have time to kill the boss but the boss hard rages. Using High Voltage every 2 seconds. Yet the enrage method is clearly easier. If players are geared enough to take down more then 3 nodes before fighting the ADS, they really shouldn't be punished for that.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

The reward is five minutes of your life back every week to do whatever else is in game. I can understand why people use this. I've tried both methods myself. what boggles my brain is how, within the time limit, we can kill more nodes and have time to kill the boss but the boss hard rages. Using High Voltage every 2 seconds. Yet the enrage method is clearly easier. If players are geared enough to take down more then 3 nodes before fighting the ADS, they really shouldn't be punished for that.

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well you are buffed + punished with every killed node
as every node kill will take off one ability from the ADS, and also gives him one buff
if you want to kill more then 3 then don't kill the one with the attack speed buff, i guess

http://d282pcd7wjjux8.cloudfront.net...-ffxiv-arr.jpg

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Originally Posted by Jermz

Lol Y'all mad?! My goodness. People are so concerned about stuff that doesn't really affect them (especially in STATIC GROUPS). Get over it

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Yeah, it doesn't affect them, once they get to turn 3, since you know the "only" way they can clear 2 is 'enrage', if they somehow miraculously get past 3 (since you know, clearly it's only new people who do it) they'll be stuck on 4 forever because, you don't really need a full DPS check doing the 'enrage' method, the people you try to run with from 2-4 will never even see the first dreadnaught. So while yes it doesn't affect them..I thought the whole mantra as of late is "thinking about the community"? You do know what people do in this game collectively does affect us when it comes to updates...right?

Look at Praetorium, a common strategy was to leech/esuna the Bleeding effect so people can stand in the glorious blue fire and still DPS, it wasn't an exploit either because you simply removed a debuff as it is natural for a healer to do - SE programmed it that the fire itself does nothing..it was the bleed effect that caused damage, so of course they fixed it even though it wasn't reported really. SE watches and makes changes accordingly, usually for the worst, so you don't want to have the "just ignore it" mentality when it comes to certain things. It makes life easier, sure - but when SE updates the game...we usually see a lot of people complaining when their free candy gets taken away.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

T2 is harder than T4 if you do them correctly.

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Which means if you can't clear 2 you shouldn't be able to clear 4. Just like Titan, even SE basically admitted Titan was supposed to gate Relic acquisition because if you can't clear Titan, why should you get your relic? They said there were FAR more relics made than they anticipated.

If Turn 2 is harder than 4 (not really), this method negates that completely (which in turn would then actually be an exploit by definition) - when was the last time you played a FF game where (or any game) where a coutdown to "Im gonna kill you!" move does...basically nothing and you can live through it? I don't know about you, but Citadel buster in XI's Ultima usually killed everyone but a proper -mDT/Light Resistance set PLD, Ultima in Praetorium killed everyone when Ultima countdown finished if you didn't kill it, Ultima in Minstrel's Bane killed everyone if you took too long...

Let's face it, it's an oversight but due to Coil having nothing done to it till at least march, there's "nothing wrong with it", but once the update comes out, you can guarantee things will change even outside of the 'nerf of previous content.', why would they nerf something that already did nothing?

The only things I understood reading this topic, correct me if I'm wrong, are:
- some people stated this strat is an exploit
- SE let everyone know it is not
- some people (possibly the same of point one) keep arguing stating this is going to hurt the game, using the "I know this thing is going to ruin the game because I said it" argument

Now before saying: "Hey, but that is not the argument I'm using! I can tell by using sheer flawless logic and my superior knowledge of player base needs!", can anyone recall what is the number of topics about the same kind of catastrophic prophecies during alpha/beta...

Be good, play the way you like, post your feedback and when you get an answer from the team move on... your job is done.

I personally don't want people who can't clear Turn 2 by dealing with a FEW mechanics to get on Turn 4 and suck like no before.

...I really expected them to fix this. It is a stupidly easy strategy that involves no thought whatsoever, and is pretty insulting to the amount of strategy and co-ordination required from the other Turns.
What's the point of having the other nodes with their specific skills and traits? What's the point of the rot mechanic?
Now even more people will be using this method, to the point where people will get laughed at/flamed for suggesting otherwise and will have mandatory switches to a 3rd healer...[sigh]

Honestly, this thread shouldn't target Turn 2.

The OP's problem seems to be that less and less tanks are getting through content in comparison to healers and DPS. If that's the case every single turn can be done with 1 tank. Ifrit HM can be done with 1 tank, as can Garuda HM and Titan HM.

The only places that can't be done with 1 tank are bosses that require tank swaps, such as Ultima HM.

Tanks have it extremely easy, even with this issue. They can create their own party with 1 tank and no doubt 4-5 DPS will join within minutes. Healers come pretty quickly, too. I've also never had any issue finding a tank for any turn of Coil.

Having more then one way to do a dungeon or challenge makes sense, that should never be an issue. Plus no one forces players to use this method or takes away from the fun of beating ADS normally. For all the criers and complainers, just make a party and beat it the normal way. My coils group has yet to do the enrage method and we have no plans to do it either, but I won't cry about it. A group of summoners can do WP w/o using a tank or healer player but power to them, doesn't mean it needs to be changed. Just play the way you want and quit all the crying about methods you can choose to use or not.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

The development team is aware of the strategy that is being used for the Binding Coil of Bahamut Turn 2 against ADS and they do not consider it to be an exploit. There are currently no plans to make any adjustments.

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I felt a great disturbance in the force...
http://i.imgur.com/Ypj7R9l.jpg?1

i see no problem with it, it gives people who have a static a quicker way through the fight by normal mode and allows pick up groups who dont have static to progress as well. i find it funny how so many people want to complain about how enrage strat makes for worse players but no one seems to have a problem with FC's selling titan runs for relic which releases far more crappy players into the game than taking advantage of boss mechanic.

Turn 2 is incredibly easy just like every other fight in the game. I wouldn't consider wasting 10 minutes waiting and then another 5 to kill it when I could just go in and kill it in 5 to begin with.

The only time enrage is useful though is with a pug group, and in some cases a group of random people don't have he co-ordination or communication to pass turn 2 mechanics. Any static however, does not nessesarily have three healers and two bards. So I would say it's not being exploited because statics still do the actual mechanics and enrage just makes the turn beatable for a pug.
TL : DR only pugs use enrage.

dont even need 3 healers or bards for this strat, we did it with 2 healers a bard and a pally

Did it with 1 sch 1 whm 2 plds 1 brd 1 drg 1 smn 1 blm. The only valid point is it makes turn 2 too easy for being part of the hardest dungeon in the game.

It is kind of how progression goes in an MMO. Get powerful enough to zerg said boss and ignore everything else.

My experience from XI - Kirin, Dynamis Lord etc. Kraken Club + DRK or MNK = Dead Boss. XP PTs went from Arrow Burn to Axe Burn to just TP Burn. Tanks BSTs and Casters got left out. But yet they continued to level and find a way to survive.

Let people play their own way and stop crying.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

The development team is aware of the strategy that is being used for the Binding Coil of Bahamut Turn 2 against ADS and they do not consider it to be an exploit. There are currently no plans to make any adjustments.

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This is a pretty troubling response. Exploit or no, the entirety of Turn 2 is poorly designed. The enrage strategy is just the rotten cherry on top of the warm milkshake that is Turn 2. I'd be happy if all you did is just add a paralyze effect to the AoE attack ADS does when it rages. Problem solved.

I personally have no problem using the Enrage strategy, and have used it before.

That being said, I'm surprised the development team doesn't have a problem with it. You would think they would want the Turn 2 mechanics to actually matter. After all, they're the ones who planned out the buffs/ability paths and whatnot.

I'm all for it.

Just fix it so ADS continues using its abilities.

Because this is literally the only 'Enrage' I've heard of where the boss stops using abilities.

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Originally Posted by Bankai305

Its not an exploit, its bad design. Enrage means if you don't kill it within the allotted time you lose. current ADS enrage means you can bypass all ADS mechanics, take 3 healers and automatically win, so all the work and effort put into ADS mechanics/design is out of the window, and turn 2 has turned into the new turn 3 but with free loot.

Tell developers that they should consider adjusting it not because its an exploit people are taking advantage of, but because ADS is a joke now and the

Atlus useless

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Actually the people in static parties are not doing it this way. If they do they are screwing themselves for t4 or having to kick someone. It's good for using in a pug just to get it over with.

A community is based off of multiple people and the beliefs and ideals they encompass. Now not every one person thinks the same. T2 enrage is an alternative method of completing it. What is the beauty of this game if nothing but being able to do things differently with the same outcome. I'm sure the game would be much less enjoyable if everything had to be done the same right down to the smallest detail every time. Now while you may disagree with T2 enrage and believe it's making a detrimental impact to your server. It's actually making a positive impact on your community to those who wish to complete it the way they have chosen. Just like any community, you can choose not to participate with those individuals. That's your choice. But they are also making their own decisions and happily playing and enjoying the game on their own accord. To all groups out there, I say find your own way. Do something different. Step out of the mold and find your own way that works. In fact I dare you.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

Bad logic, you can still 2 tank it. I play as WAR and we do the enrage thing, I just equipped dps gear for turn 2 and let the PLD tank. I put up the same numbers as a DRG without defiance on so nobody loses, and we beat turn 2 doing enrage using 2 tanks. If people wanna solo tank content they can for literally any fight in the game.

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If your DRG is pulling equal DPS to a WAR outside of defiance (even while wearing DPS gear), you may wanna have them look into their rotation. Any WAR won't keep up with a DRG that understands their job and utilizes proper rotation.

Anyway, back on topic. Even though SE has stated isn't not an exploit, the mechanics teach you valuable game skills. By using the enrage method, you're only cheating yourself out of learning. The mechanics will always be recycled at some date and bite you in the butt down the road. I guess I'd rather learn and master them now, then later. To each his own.

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Originally Posted by Allyra

And this even matters because.....?

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Your sig makes me laugh every time i see it xD

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Originally Posted by Mooserocka33

Actually the people in static parties are not doing it this way. If they do they are screwing themselves for t4 or having to kick someone. It's good for using in a pug just to get it over with.

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My static group does it this way. I just swap to Bard or our Warrior swaps to Monk for turn 2. We also one-shot turn 4 this week, so I wouldn't say we are "screwing ourselves."

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Originally Posted by inemnitable

My static group does it this way. I just swap to Bard or our Warrior swaps to Monk for turn 2. We also one-shot turn 4 this week, so I wouldn't say we are "screwing ourselves."

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It's not screwing yourself but it is a waste of time if you can do the actual mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Mooserocka33

Actually the people in static parties are not doing it this way. If they do they are screwing themselves for t4 or having to kick someone. It's good for using in a pug just to get it over with.

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My static does it. I switch from brd to whm, and one of our tank switches to brd. Since it is a static, no one gets screwed on gear either as we just do greed on the brd/tank drops.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

It's not screwing yourself but it is a waste of time if you can do the actual mechanics.

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Bathroom break during t2 or bathroom break before doing t4, makes no difference to me.

And yes, we used to do t2 just fine the normal way (only took two tries to beat it the first time we were in there). But hey if we can take a break, and have fun chewing the fat on vent with each other, we'll do it.