Could MRD Possible Be The Best Melee DPS Class ? (Theory Crathing)

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Care to explain how that equates to 1.125?

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Defiance reduces damage by 25%, and enmity is damage-based. This means that your enmity is effectively decreased by 25%, then multiplied by 1.5, resulting in 0.75*1.5=1.125.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Care to explain how that equates to 1.125?

Lets say I do my three hit combo and do 100, 200, and 300 damage on the three hits.

100 x 1 = 100
200 x 3 = 600
300 x 5 = 1500
= 2200 threat generated

Same numbers with Defiance

100 x 1 x 1.5 = 150
200 x 3 x 1.5 = 900
300 x 5 x 1.5 = 2250
= 3300 threat generated

3300 / 2200 = 1.5

I'm not seeing how you get that number.

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You didn't lower your damage output by 25%.

100 x 1 = 100
200 x 3 = 600
300 x 5 = 1500
= 2200 threat generated

Same numbers with Defiance

100 - (100 x .25) x 1 x 1.5 = 112.5
200 - (200 x .25) x 3 x 1.5 = 675
300 - (300 x .25) x 5 x 1.5 = 1687.5
= 2640

2475/2200

1.125

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Care to explain how that equates to 1.125?

I'm not seeing how you get that number.

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You are neglecting the damage penalty on Defiance.

So I have!

125 x 1 = 125
250 x 3 = 750
375 x 5 = 1878
= 2750 threat generated

Same numbers with Defiance

100 x 1 x 1.5 = 150
200 x 3 x 1.5 = 900
300 x 5 x 1.5 = 2250
= 3300 threat generated

3300 threat to 2750 threat.

I'm not sure where you are getting the numbers from, but assuming a 1.5x rate with Defiance then it still gets more threat than not using Defiance.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I find it considerably easier to hold hate against well geared DPS with Defiance on than without.

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This sentence right here is in itself saying you have problems holding hate without defiance, and without losing hate, how would you find it easier to hold in defiance? If you are also saying your party agrees with you, that implies they pulled hate from you too. I didn't criticize you at all, I just spoke base don what you mentioned, without even directly saying you were playing badly, or unable to do your job. YOU are the one who took it as an attack, and I think you need to just re-read what I posted to see how I wasn't in any way insulting you. All I did was suggest a way to test and see for yourself how Enmity is not what many people say ti is on theese forums. From experience the 3X and 5X from Skull Sunder and Butchers Block, are WAY over estimated, and feel completely wrong.

In fact, I'm going to make a totally separate thread about it today when I do in depth testing with a parser. I know I can hit with BB for ~400 give or take in defiance. So, if Defiance is 2X or even 1.5X On top of the 5X, that should give me from Butchers Block alone, a minimum of 3000 Damage worth of Threat, or at best 4000 Damage worth of threat. Which would basically say all I should ever need per mob is That and Skull Sunder to hold it for it's entire life span, FROM 1 SINGLE Damage Dealer focusing it, and I know for a fact that that is NEVER the case.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

3300 threat to 2750 threat is still, guest what, more threat with Defiance.

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Indeed, it is more. And yet it isn't enough more that I can freely use BB combos when I DPS, which is the relevant point here.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

This sentence right here is in itself saying you have problems holding hate without defiance, and without losing hate, how would you find it easier to hold in defiance?

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No it was a statement about seeing enough movement on the bar to notice a difference. It is not a tacit admission that I was incapable or was having a challenging time holding hate. Those are your assumptions based off the littlest amount of info. Please don't read between the lines just trying to put me down. That isn't beneficial to the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

So I have!

125 x 1 = 125
250 x 3 = 750
375 x 5 = 1878
= 2750 threat generated

Same numbers with Defiance

100 x 1 x 1.5 = 150
200 x 3 x 1.5 = 900
300 x 5 x 1.5 = 2250
= 3300 threat generated

3300 threat to 2750 threat is still, guest what, more threat with Defiance.

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You're doing math backwards. If you hit for 125 outside of defiance, you'd hit for 93.75 (125 * .75) in it. If you hit for 100 in Defiance, you'd hit for 133.33 (100 / .75) outside of it.

Using your original numbers, it's 2200 (no Defiance) vs. 2475 (3300 * .75, with Defiance) threat.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

So I have!

125 x 1 = 125
250 x 3 = 750
375 x 5 = 1878
= 2750 threat generated

Same numbers with Defiance

100 x 1 x 1.5 = 150
200 x 3 x 1.5 = 900
300 x 5 x 1.5 = 2250
= 3300 threat generated

3300 threat to 2750 threat.

I'm not sure where you are getting the numbers from, but assuming a 1.5x rate with Defiance then it still gets more threat than not using Defiance.

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Eh your math is off... 125 damage with -25% damage from defiance is not 100 damage... its 125x.75 = 93.75... so all your numbers are off.

EDIT: Someone beat me to it!

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

No it was a statement about seeing enough movement on the bar to notice a difference. It is not a tacit admission that I was incapable or was having a challenging time holding hate. Those are your assumptions based off the littlest amount of info. Please don't read between the lines just trying to put me down. That isn't beneficial to the discussion.

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I never tried to put you down! Stop looking at it like I'm attacking you... I only suggested trying strength and made a blanket statement that Warriors (Not you specifically, but all warriors) have a harder time holding threat in full Vitality.

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

Indeed, it is more. And yet it isn't enough more that I can freely use BB combos when I DPS, which is the relevant point here.

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Unless you have a Allagan Axe, A WAR or PLD still should have a major threat avantage because MRD is lockout of Relic, it isnt till allagan gear where they can be equally geared.

Umm, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Defiance is 35% damage penalty, not 25.... or even 20 which it looks like some people are using.

Baseline
100 x1 = 100
200 x3 = 600
300 x5 = 1500
= 2200 Threat

Defiance (1.5x)
100 x.65 x1 x1.5 = 97.5
200 x.65 x3 x1.5 = 507
300 x.65 x5 x1.5 = 1462.5
= 2067 Threat



ALSO! In Game the Defiance Tooltip sayd 25% damage penalty, but looking at Steel Cyclone, it states "Ignores the 35% damage penalty from Defiance". So... Which is it?

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Umm, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Defiance is 35% damage penalty, not 25.... or even 20 which it looks like some people are using.

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"Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity.
Effect ends upon reuse.
Using certain actions while under the effect of Defiance will grant Wrath. Each unit of Wrath increases critical hit rate by 2% and and HP recovery via curing magic by 3%. When five units are stacked, you will become Infuriated. All Wrath is lost when Defiance ends."

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Umm, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Defiance is 35% damage penalty, not 25.... or even 20 which it looks like some people are using.

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its only 25%. It used to be 35% in Beta, SE realized it was too big of a gimp. Honestly, I'd wish they get rid of damage reduction all together.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Unless you have a Allagan Axe, A WAR or PLD still should have a major threat avantage because MRD is lockout of Relic, it isnt till allagan gear where they can be equally geared.

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As a WAR with Defiance off, Wearing the gear I have on right now plus Darklight DPS accessories, I can easily rip threat off of any tank wearing tanking gear.

My gear is by no means spectacular. Threat will be an even *bigger* problem with the relevant gear to make MRD viable.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

"Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity.
Effect ends upon reuse.
Using certain actions while under the effect of Defiance will grant Wrath. Each unit of Wrath increases critical hit rate by 2% and and HP recovery via curing magic by 3%. When five units are stacked, you will become Infuriated. All Wrath is lost when Defiance ends."

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

its only 25%. It used to be 35% in Beta, SE realized it was too big of a gimp. Honestly, I'd wish they get rid of damage reduction all together.

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So basically Steel Cyclone was never updated in it's tooltip Thanks for clearing that up for me! I quit beta long before jobs were introduced. I agree with the sentiment of Damage reduction being an issue for us, But I do think maybe 10% loss would be balanced, Otherwise, ALL Damage Dealers would be IB Spamming Warriors. =P Immortal DPS! Who needs to run out of an AOE zone if you can IB it. Hehe